Thomas Stuart Ferguson

[miss taken]

I just found this article about THomas Stuart Ferguson who attempted to prove the BOM true, by using archaelogical evidence.

I read it with interest, and related to much of what he wrote as to why he wished to stay in the LDS church after coming to the conclusion that both the Book of Abraham and the Book of Mormon were works of fiction.

I was particularly interested in noting that Hugh B Brown, had also come to the conclusion that The Book of Abraham was a work of fiction, and wanted it removed from cannon.

I did not know that it was the Book of Abraham that was the source of the churches policy on blacks.

Anyone still know the precise part?


http://www.lds-mormon.com/ferg.shtml

Mary

[miss taken]

I thought I had actually got a copy of Ferguson's book, but I must have given it away.

What I did find was 'The World of the Book of Mormon', by Paul R. Cheeseman (published in 1984).

He recognises that many groups entered into the Americas, including from the Beiring Straits.

He suggests that the stories in Indian Legend of their ancestors coming across by boat, as comparative to Lehi's expedition.

He talks of the bearded God stories in Indian Legend, and compares him to Jesus, and the BOM description of Christ's visit to the Americas.

He conludes that there are so many scientific evidences of the authenticity of the Book of Mormon, and none to disprove it.

He ends. 'It is, rather, almost unbelievable for modern scholars to declare such massive findings as fake....The Book of Mormon is in very deed a record written by some of these early Americans'

I am still trying to figure out what the actual evidences are, and what they mean. Did I miss something?

Help :duh

[peter_mary]

I did not know that it was the Book of Abraham that was the source of the churches policy on blacks.

Anyone still know the precise part?

Mary

Abraham 1:21-24

21--Now this king of Egypt was a descendent from the loins of Ham, and was a partaker of the blood of the Caananites by birth.

22--From this descent sprang all the Egyptians, and thus the blood of the Caananites was preserved in the land.

23--The land of Egypt being first discovered by a woman, who was the daughter of Ham, and the daughter of Egyptus, which in the Chaldean signifies Egypt, which signifies that which is forbidden;

24--When this woman discovered the land it was under water, who afterward settled her sons in it; and thus, from Ham, sprang that race which preserved the curse in the land.

These verses themselves are not overtly obvious in their racism, unless you are familiar with the claims by LDS prophets that Ham was the father of the Black race. Reading Brigham Young and others, right on down to Bruce McConkie, you gain a clear understanding that "the curse in the land" of Egypt (an African nation) was their dark skin.

Lovely bit of doctrine, eh? :duh

Peter_mary

[peter_mary]

I thought I had actually got a copy of Ferguson's book, but I must have given it away.

What I did find was 'The World of the Book of Mormon', by Paul R. Cheeseman (published in 1984).

He recognises that many groups entered into the Americas, including from the Beiring Straits.

He suggests that the stories in Indian Legend of their ancestors coming across by boat, as comparative to Lehi's expedition.

He talks of the bearded God stories in Indian Legend, and compares him to Jesus, and the BOM description of Christ's visit to the Americas.

He conludes that there are so many scientific evidences of the authenticity of the Book of Mormon, and none to disprove it.

He ends. 'It is, rather, almost unbelievable for modern scholars to declare such massive findings as fake....The Book of Mormon is in very deed a record written by some of these early Americans'

I am still trying to figure out what the actual evidences are, and what they mean. Did I miss something?

Help :duh

Apologists are famous for statements like, 'It is, rather, almost unbelievable for modern scholars to declare such massive findings as fake...' because their choice of words makes it sound like they have this rock-solid case that is being ignored by some conspiracy of the so-called scientists and intellectuals. The "Massive" amounts of data are in fact nothing more than a small handful of stories wishfully interpreted in the LOOSEST form in such a manner that it MIGHT leave open the door to POSSIBLY being INTERPRETED to SUGGEST the POSSIBILITY that the BOM COULD be accurate.

The bottom line is simply this...if the evidence was so massive, it would point in the right direction, but it doesn't. SOMETHING in the scientific record would SURELY suggest a migration from the Middle East, and yet there remains none. Linguistics, DNA, dates of habitation, similarities between tools and pottery between Asia and N. American digs, all provides tangible evidence and ALL suggests an Asian migration long before Lehi's supposed little adventure.

There may be one or two instances of legend in which someone noted a local belief in a bearded god, but when placed into the overall context of the culture, it is a great stretch ending in a leap of faith to conclude that it might be Jesus. When there are obvious contextual solutions to stories, it is only the dreamer who chooses to interpret it in fundamentally and radical manner. And they are entitled to choose to see it however they want, because ultimately we can't know "FOR CERTAIN" what the real story was meant to be...but it still a FAITH BASED decision when the apologists choose to interpret those stories contrary to all the rest of the evidence. It's like being surrounded on a battlefield littered with dead and dying soldiers, and finding one man who miraculously survived, and thereby declaring that God was there that day on the battlefield. You can do that if you want, but the vast body of evidence suggests that really it was a bunch of stupid people that were shooting each other that were on the battlefield that day, and that the God of Love was anywhere but there.

Like the song says: "A man hears what he want's to hear, and disregards the rest."

Peter_Mary

[Jeff_Ricks]

Apologists are famous for statements like, 'It is, rather, almost unbelievable for modern scholars to declare such massive findings as fake...' because their choice of words makes it sound like they have this rock-solid case that is being ignored by some conspiracy of the so-called scientists and intellectuals. The "Massive" amounts of data are in fact nothing more than a small handful of stories wishfully interpreted in the LOOSEST form in such a manner that it MIGHT leave open the door to POSSIBLY being INTERPRETED to SUGGEST the POSSIBILITY that the BOM COULD be accurate.

The bottom line is simply this...if the evidence was so massive, it would point in the right direction, but it doesn't. SOMETHING in the scientific record would SURELY suggest a migration from the Middle East, and yet there remains none. Linguistics, DNA, dates of habitation, similarities between tools and pottery between Asia and N. American digs, all provides tangible evidence and ALL suggests an Asian migration long before Lehi's supposed little adventure.

There may be one or two instances of legend in which someone noted a local belief in a bearded god, but when placed into the overall context of the culture, it is a great stretch ending in a leap of faith to conclude that it might be Jesus. When there are obvious contextual solutions to stories, it is only the dreamer who chooses to interpret it in fundamentally and radical manner. And they are entitled to choose to see it however they want, because ultimately we can't know "FOR CERTAIN" what the real story was meant to be...but it still a FAITH BASED decision when the apologists choose to interpret those stories contrary to all the rest of the evidence. It's like being surrounded on a battlefield littered with dead and dying soldiers, and finding one man who miraculously survived, and thereby declaring that God was there that day on the battlefield. You can do that if you want, but the vast body of evidence suggests that really it was a bunch of stupid people that were shooting each other that were on the battlefield that day, and that the God of Love was anywhere but there.

Like the song says: "A man hears what he want's to hear, and disregards the rest."

Peter_Mary

I purchased a book a few years ago and am just now getting around to reading it. It's Thomas Kuhns, The Structure of Scientific Revolutions. I purchased it because central to his book is the concept of paradigms (the paradigm of paradigms? :cool: ) and like Peter_Mary I have an interest in paradigms – especially how they affect our lives relative to religion.

Kuhn explains that in the scientific community when new discoveries undermine old theories, even though the people of the community are scientists too they will generally cling to and defend the old theories even when the evidence is clearly stacked against them. He points out that it’s not until a new theory founded on the new evidence is in place that they will even consider making a change. Until that time they will defend the old theories even to the point of being irrational.

As I see it the same principles apply to leaving Mormonism or any religion. After I had my first serious doubts I studied Mormonism for another two years before I was comfortable with making break. My study also included figuring out what else was out there should I leave Mormonism and until I had a pretty good idea what life might be like, and what my new worldview (paradigm) might be I wasn’t willing to jump ship though I think I had subconsciously written off Mormonism probably within the first few months after I started having doubts.

What was the experience of others? Did you need a new paradigm in place before you could make the jump or did you jump, hoping that you’d figure things out as you went?

Jeff

[miss taken]

Hi Jeff,

What you say is really interesting, the one thing that sticks out that my very close friend who is still in the church is saying, is that

'until you find me something better, I am staying where I am'

I do completely understand where she is coming from. It's not all Prozac and supression, depression, for everyone in the church. For many, it offers a wonderful, spiritual way of life, that helps them to be 'nicer' people. I don't think anyone can argue with that?

And what CAN the world offer that is better??
When I left I didn't have a new paradigm, I just came to believe that the old one was based on much that was good, but also much that was not historically true.

I always argued that spiritual truth should not contradict historical truth (that applies to scientific truth also).

If I had been taught from the beginning about the true nature of the lives of Brigham Young and Joseph Smith, I think I could have accepted it. I did feel that I had been decieved. I also found a book called 'one minute answers to anti-mormon questions' today, and skimmed through it, most of the stuff wasn't anti at all and all rather ridiculous, but a few of the questions were good.

Do leaders have to be perfect?

Well, no of course not, Silverfox was completely correct I think to say that nobody is perfect. But with the church that isn't the point. The point is that the lives of Joseph and Brigham have been so airbrushed, so as to not make them real, even if it has been done with good intentions. It just isn't honest to paint them as perfect when they were not. Personally, I don't think the church can or should fall on the imperfections of Joseph Smith.

So, what about the Book of Mormon and the Book of Abraham?

They are written as historical accounts of real people, and I think it is as reasonable for people to want to find evidence of their existence, and with regard to the Book of Abraham to find out if Joseph was doing what he said he was doing.

I only have out of date books here at home, because I did leave 10 years ago.

But I checked the internet today, and I could find no evidence that things have changed

With regard to the Book of Abraham, the critics are saying it is false, and the apologists are saying that we still havn't found the original scrolls that Joseph used. (they quote Hugh Nibley, and red writing being on the originals??)

With regard to the Book of Mormon, the critics are saying that so far, there is not one shred of evidence, not one, that the people it talks of ever existed. Which is unusual because JS did pin their dates right up to 400AD

What they have found is parallels. Lots of parallels. So some people came over the Straits, and some may have came by boat. I find that easy to beleive. The Danes were explorers, humans have always been curious, and have known how to build boats and trade with each other. So it isn't unreasonable to hypothesise that middle eastern peoples did get to the Americas before Columbus. Indeed Cocaine evidence in some mummies suggest that that may have occured long ago. But did Lehi bring cocaine with him. Probably not. So what it says is that people were coming in and out of the Americas, but is there one shred of evidence for any ANY of the stories in the Book of Mormon. Jeff Lindsay in his website, states that the Hill Cumorah may be down in South America somewhere because though we call Hill Cumorah the one in New York, Moroni?? may have travelled there from 1000's of miles away, and so it may not be the HIlll Cumorah of BOM record.

I tend to agree with Ferguson's off the record remarks to the Tanners, and I understand why he stayed, and his sentiments for staying.

Mary

[free thinker]

Read Grant Palmers " An Insiders View Of Mormon Origins". I strongly reccomend it.

For me, I jumped and had no idea where I would land. My life is 210% better now!! For me there is way too much obfuscation, and mind bending, to beleive the mormon church is god's church. In fact, since I read " Why Christianity Must Change or Die" by John Shelby Spong. I have a totally different view of what, or who, god may be.


For me, the farther away I get from mormonism, the better I feel, and the more mentally healthy I am!! ;)

Free Thinker

[miss taken]

Read Grant Palmers " An Insiders View Of Mormon Origins". I strongly reccomend it.

For me, I jumped and had no idea where I would land. My life is 210% better now!! For me there is way too much obfuscation, and mind bending, to beleive the mormon church is god's church. In fact, since I read " Why Christianity Must Change or Die" by John Shelby Spong. I have a totally different view of what, or who, god may be.


For me, the farther away I get from mormonism, the better I feel, and the more mentally healthy I am!! ;)

Free Thinker

Thanks Free Thinker, I have heard of the Grant Palmer Book and must get on Amazon and order it. I havn't read any of Spong's works at all. I must check it out.
Thanks
Mary

[miss taken]

Read Grant Palmers " An Insiders View Of Mormon Origins". I strongly reccomend it.

For me, I jumped and had no idea where I would land. My life is 210% better now!! For me there is way too much obfuscation, and mind bending, to beleive the mormon church is god's church. In fact, since I read " Why Christianity Must Change or Die" by John Shelby Spong. I have a totally different view of what, or who, god may be.


For me, the farther away I get from mormonism, the better I feel, and the more mentally healthy I am!! ;)

Free Thinker

Ive just ordered both books over Amazon. Thanks Free Thinker.
Mary

[free thinker]

These books were life changers for me. I hope you enjoy them as much as I did!!

Palmers book helped free me from the myths of mormonism. Spongs book has given me a new insight into the nature of spirituality, and the nature of god.


Free Thinker

[miss taken]

These books were life changers for me. I hope you enjoy them as much as I did!!

Palmers book helped free me from the myths of mormonism. Spongs book has given me a new insight into the nature of spirituality, and the nature of god.


Free Thinker

Thanks Free Thinker, the person selling the Spong Book is from Gloucester and is a reverend. He has already emailed me. I would like to pick his brain!!!

I looked on Spong's website, and have a feeling that I am going to be able to relate to this man.

Can't wait for the books to arrive!!!
Mary