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flotsam
27th April 2005, 09:28 PM
Hi All,

I just finished reading Karen Armstrong's The Spiral Staircase, and I found some things that I thought would interest you folks.

In case you haven't read it, The Spiral Staircase is the story of a woman exiting a convent, going through levels of ambivalence and downright disgust for Catholicism and then Christianity and finally religion itself, and then finding all the spiritual things she had originally sought. But rather than finding them in a convent, or the secular world, she finds it in writing about religion.

She tells about a practice she and her fellow nuns did each morning of settling on a scripture, picturing the event using all the senses, judging its call to you, and finally acting on it. Apparently she was just terrible at this practice. She was terrible at nunning in general, actually. She has pretty harsh words for the methods her particular convent used. It was quite anti-intellectual, where you had to obey superiors as if they were God himself, where questioning was entirely inappropriate. She found herself struggling to escape this mindset when she left the convent, but it took her about a decade to do so.

So she goes through like 20 years of non-religiosity, but through her stints as a television documentary host on religious subjects she starts to find something interesting. She spends a year doing a show on Saint Paul, whom she started out thinking was a sexist pig, bureaucrat of the worst sort, and a tainter of Jesus’ original compassionate philosophy. But as she studies, she starts to get to know Paul on a deeper level until, at the end of the series, she feels like she knows Paul, and finds him fascinatingly human.

“I started to love the genius and pathos of the man. I was moved by his passion, his brilliance, his inventiveness, and the affection that he clearly felt for his converts. The second epistle to the Corinthians showed his extraordinary vulnerability, and when we finally got to Tre Fontane, just outside of Rome, where – legend has it – Paul was executed by the emperor Nero, I found that was almost tearful. … Paul, a difficult, prickly genius, had stormed his way into my affections, and now I felt so much at one with him that I could almost share his convictions. Almost, but not quite.”

During her travels and studies she starts to notice the similarities between the three monotheistic religions. And eventually writes a book on the subject: “A History of God.” Then, when she sees the difficulty the western world is having with understanding Islam, she writes a book about Muhammad and one about religious fundamentalism.

“While writing Muhammad, I had to make a constant, imaginative attempt to enter empathically into the experience of another. This was a kind of ecstasy. For six months I was intent all and every day on trying to understand a man’s search for sanctification. Even thought I was not a believer, I had to think myself into a religious frame of reference, and enter the mind of a man who believed that he was touched directly by God. Unless I could make that leap of sympathy, I would miss the essence of Muhammad. Writing his life was in its own way and act of Islam – a “surrender” of my secular skeptical self, which brought me, of only at second hand and at one remove, into the ambit of what we call the divine.” (280)

This is fascinating to me. My own journey has been somewhat similar to Armstrong’s in structure. I came from quite a fundamental environment, where metaphysics described reality. I was mentally stunted by my training, the way she was. The only way I found out of it all was to distance myself from everything that represented that repression. I did continue to go to church, but only to resist everything that was said there. Even if I agreed with something a speaker or teacher said, I had to resist it, find a counter argument. Because I was trained to believe that if just one thread fit, the entire tapestry held together. One instance of spirit feeling would condemn me to belief and obedience. I had to do this for a few years to untrain myself. I had to escape the “authority” the church had over me. I admit, it still has authority over the deepest most primal parts of me. The parts that houses fear and grief. I don’t know if it will ever leave.

The next step in my path seems to be an opening. Before, if I opened myself, I was probably too weak to fend off any good story that came along. I’d just be sucked into yet another fundamentalist attitude that would give my life meaning. But now I’m opening in a different way. Kind of in the way Armstrong describes with her experience of Paul and Mohammad. Opening to understand; to let things, ideas, people pass through me, and for me to pass through them. Because I’ve changed one fundamental premise of my life: to let an idea or a person engulf me does not mean that I must follow them. As Armstrong writes:

“The great myths show that when you follow somebody else’s path, you go astray. The hero has to set off by himself, leaving the old world and the old ways behind. He must venture into the darkness of the unknown, where there is no map and no clear route. He must fights his own monsters, not somebody’s else’s; explore his own labyrinths, and endure his own ordeal before he can find what is missing in his life.” (page 268)

I thought it was interesting to see how well Armstong’s story could be interpreted by the Stages of Post Mormonism we’ve been hashing out here. She certainly went through the niggles, the research, the destabilizing events, the break, and finally, the stage of constant revolution. And she did a really swell job describing all the stages of her journey in an empathetic way. I’d highly recommend this book to all of you. It made me feel not so alone. But at the same time, it gave me added strength to set off on my own path. It doesn’t need to be hers. It doesn’t need to be anyone else’s. In fact, it shouldn’t be. How exciting.

free thinker
27th April 2005, 10:04 PM
Perhaps the event and process of leaving any fundamentalist organization is often similar. I find myself being able to relate to much of what she had to say.

Thanks for the info and book lead!!

Free Thinker

Born Free
27th April 2005, 10:09 PM
Flotsam,

I find it wonderful what happens when we compare notes with people from another religous tradition and discover shared experience.

My unread want-to-read list is so long now, I am reluctant to add another, although this does sound great. (The speed reading course is looking increasingly inevitable!)

I have the niggling feeling I know the authors name from somewhere. Was one of her books on Peter_Mary's recommended reading list or is this it?

I am very interested if what you observed in her story highlights any deficiencies or potential refinements in the Post Mo Stages Model. Part of the drive with that is to make it as comprehensive as possible in representing a wide range of people's experience.

Daryl

flotsam
27th April 2005, 10:40 PM
Flotsam,

I find it wonderful what happens when we compare notes with people from another religous tradition and discover shared experience.

I had a really interesting breakfast conversation with a poet named Jane Hirschfield. She's a Zen Buddhist, trained and everything. She edited a collection of writings by female mystics from all over the world, all time periods and all religions. She said as she read through them, she came to believe that if you put them all in the same room, they would eventually realize that they were all talking about the same thing - they were just using different metaphors.

But she also said, and this has really stuck with me, that most of the mystics seemed to be driven by a LACK of God in their lives, rather than an abundance. They were searching instead of reveling in glory. How amazing. Mystics are the searchers, not the finders.


I have the niggling feeling I know the authors name from somewhere. Was one of her books on Peter_Mary's recommended reading list or is this it?

Yeah, Peter_Mary recommended The History of God. Haven't read it myself, but am planning to.


I am very interested if what you observed in her story highlights any deficiencies or potential refinements in the Post Mo Stages Model. Part of the drive with that is to make it as comprehensive as possible in representing a wide range of people's experience.

Daryl

Hmm. Good question. I'll think about it.

miss taken
30th April 2005, 12:37 AM
Went to the Bookstore yesterday, and found the one that Flotsam refers to, but couldn't find 'history of god' which I really want to read first.

Came out with 'the authentic Jesus' by Giza Vermes, and a book on dinosaurs for my son....sigh!!!

Mary

peter_mary
15th June 2005, 09:00 PM
Somehow, I totally missed this thread until this evening! I HAVE to chime in--but first this disclaimer--The Spiral Staircase is one of the ONLY Karen Armstrong books I haven't read, devoured, and loved. I'll get to it. I promise.

I have a crush on Karen Armstrong. :p

The first book I read of hers was "A History of God." It literally altered the course of my life. Not because I necessarily joined her on her journey, but she opened my mind up to a different way of conceiving of God. She did not encourage me to become Athiest...but when I began to analyze the history of God, putting that rascal into the greater context of culture, my spiritual September 11 began in earnest. I wrote PAGES of notes on the smattering of blank pages in the back of her book, and have lent it out numerous times. LOVE it.

Then I read Muhammed, and that was also powerful. It was my first introduction to the mind of the man Muhammed, and it was then that I began to see the striking parallels between that prophet, and a certain OTHER prophet with whom I was more familiar. That book helped me gain an appreciation for the distinction between the great world religion Islam, and the fundamentalist brand we've come to identify with Al Qaeda. Loved it!

I think I next read "In the Beginning: A New Interpretation of Genesis" and it was SO helpful to read a scholarly expose on the greatest creation MYTH of the western world. More importantly, on the power of that myth to control the western world.

I then read her "Buddha" and felt the same way about that book as Muhammed. Just a tremendous amount of thoughtful exploration into the life and teachings of the Buddha.

Finally, a friend gave me "Battle for God," and I have to say, that was yet again a life altering book. It was in that book that she describes the rise of fundamentalism, and I was, for the first time, exposed to the battle between mythos and logos, and how the age of enlightenment altered irreparably the manner in which the Western world perceives the ancient myths.

Frankly, if I had to pick only two books to represent my journey, it would be "A History of God" and "Battle for God."

And I leave that testimony in the name of ALL the Gods, Amen!!!

Peter_Mary

P.S. She has one out on the Crusades, too, and I must read that one, as well as the Spiral Staircase.

Like Daryl...so many books, so little time!

Sorry I'm so late on this one Flotsam, but thanks for posting it.

And Karen, baby, this one's for you! {{{{mmmwahh!}}}} Tjohnson, it's time for a kiss smilie!

Born Free
15th June 2006, 05:57 PM
This is an (very) old thread that I stumbled across searching for something else in the archives.

I have since purchased Spiral Staircase and am reading it together with another of her books recommended by Peter-Mary - The Battle for God.

I am loving it(I speak here specifically of BfG), and can certainly see what PM was so excited about it.

I was just discussing it with a Catholic friend who also does men's work last night. I am increasingly getting the impression that one of the criticisms fundamentalism has of modernity is one with which I have some sympathy, namely that is often lacks spirituality (not that I think fundamentalism knows much about spirituality, personally).

I believe that in our transition to modernity, we have lost something, or have a desperate need to reinvent a bigger, more expansive spirituality or we risk becoming a soulless consumerist society, content to bury ourselves and our children in our own detrius.

It is my sense that is what many of us here are striving for.

What thinks thee???

Daryl