Introduce Yourselves - Tag You're It!

[silverfox]

Is there a way to keep this thread on top for all new members to see? There are lots of members...I'd like to hear about you. So if you'd like please respond and tell us a little about yourselves....how long you were/have been a member, what you'd like to gain from this board, etc, etc. Don't be shy! It's all of you that make up this community and I am anxious to do some bonding. (uh oh, now I've scared them away) :) Okay, I won't try to bond too much......tag, you're it!

[wescape]

I was born and raised in Mormonism in Portland Oregon. I always hated church from the very beginning. It was boring and all the rules made it no fun. I became very rebellious in my teens and then suddenly my mom left my dad along with the church. I went to live with her at age 15 and finally had my name removed around age 20 after the hometeachers wouldn't stop bothering me. Up to that point I really didn't care that the church wasn't true. All I knew was that I hated it and the whole thing seemed pretty ridiculous to me anyway. I just wanted to have fun and be free. But during my 20th
year I got burned out on all the partying and started
asking the big questions about the meaning of life,
etc. I began doing research at the public library and
that's when I found out about all the really crazy
stuff (i.e. blood oaths, JS & BY evil scoundrels,
etc.). Now I'm 30 and married with a passion to help
people recover from cult abuse. I want to start up a
recovery/retreat center once I finish my Master's in
Counseling Psychology.

Wes

[silverfox]

I was born and raised in Mormonism in Portland Oregon. I always hated church from the very beginning. It was boring and all the rules made it no fun. I became very rebellious in my teens and then suddenly my mom left my dad along with the church. I went to live with her at age 15 and finally had my name removed around age 20 after the hometeachers wouldn't stop bothering me. Up to that point I really didn't care that the church wasn't true. All I knew was that I hated it and the whole thing seemed pretty ridiculous to me anyway. I just wanted to have fun and be free. But during my 20th
year I got burned out on all the partying and started
asking the big questions about the meaning of life,
etc. I began doing research at the public library and
that's when I found out about all the really crazy
stuff (i.e. blood oaths, JS & BY evil scoundrels,
etc.). Now I'm 30 and married with a passion to help
people recover from cult abuse. I want to start up a
recovery/retreat center once I finish my Master's in
Counseling Psychology.

Wes

Good for you that you researched those big questions and didn't just automatically revert back to church. I think for many members they go through their rebellious phases and then just go back to church when they are done, not really questioning i n depth what they were rebelling against to start with. It's awesome that you want to use your knowledge and experiences to help others.

I remember about a year after I joined the church...I was 19....thinking "Yikes! I've joined a CULT! I've been brainwashed!!!" I became inactive then for about a year but ended up back in the church after some prodding from some ward members. I think I just wanted to belong somewhere. (I didn't have any family back then)

Is your dad still a member?

[wescape]

Yes, my dad is still a member. He remarried a Mormon widow in 1995. My mother also later remarried and was recently divorced. I have two younger brothers who rebelled like me but have still not had their names removed.

So, here's something I've wondered about: Does Mormon theology address the issue of eternal marriage in the case of someone like my dad who married a mormon widow? If his current wife was sealed to her 1st husband, doesn't that present a major problem? I'm sure they have some illogical way to try and explain it away this but it seems like a pretty big dilemma.

Another thing: My dad's life has NOT been blessed the way Mormonism promises. Despite the fact that he has always been very devout and done everything the church teaches, his wife left him, none of his kids want anything to do with Mormonism and he now has a business that is failing. On the one hand, it amazes me that he can remain so devoted in the midst of such a lack of blessing. He probably thinks, "Well, people have free agency" or just blames himself for not being a good enough husband and father. His brother is a bishop which probably makes him feel even worse. On the other hand I can see why his devotion is so strong. The church came into his life at a very difficult time, right before his mother died when he was 16. His dad was a mean drunk and I think the church's policy of no alcohol was very appealing to him. Not to mention the whole "family" focus.

Anyway, it still grieves me to see my dad live under such bondage. He's been in the church now for over 40 years
and is one of the most joyless people I've ever known. My anger over this and others who are enslaved is what fuels my desire to help people coming out of cults.

Wes

[nikki]

Yes, my dad is still a member. He remarried a Mormon widow in 1995. My mother also later remarried and was recently divorced. I have two younger brothers who rebelled like me but have still not had their names removed.

So, here's something I've wondered about: Does Mormon theology address the issue of eternal marriage in the case of someone like my dad who married a mormon widow? If his current wife was sealed to her 1st husband, doesn't that present a major problem? I'm sure they have some illogical way to try and explain it away this but it seems like a pretty big dilemma.

Another thing: My dad's life has NOT been blessed the way Mormonism promises. Despite the fact that he has always been very devout and done everything the church teaches, his wife left him, none of his kids want anything to do with Mormonism and he now has a business that is failing. On the one hand, it amazes me that he can remain so devoted in the midst of such a lack of blessing. He probably thinks, "Well, people have free agency" or just blames himself for not being a good enough husband and father. His brother is a bishop which probably makes him feel even worse. On the other hand I can see why his devotion is so strong. The church came into his life at a very difficult time, right before his mother died when he was 16. His dad was a mean drunk and I think the church's policy of no alcohol was very appealing to him. Not to mention the whole "family" focus.

Anyway, it still grieves me to see my dad live under such bondage. He's been in the church now for over 40 years
and is one of the most joyless people I've ever known. My anger over this and others who are enslaved is what fuels my desire to help people coming out of cults.

Wes

On a one to one basis I do not mind letting some know who I am. Life has been very difficult, and right now I am facing some very strong and difficult challenges.

I have gotten a little noisy in a few area's but........sometimes. I am not sure if that is/was good or not.

I ache for my youngest son, life has been very bleak for him, I can find so few good people right now. I ache for my youngest daughter. I feel like a child not knowing how to get things on a better path.

Wes, as I understand it, if your fathers current wife was sealed to her first husband, in the next life she will be the first husbands wife, unless for some reason the first husband does not make it into the Celestrial Kingdom, according to Mormon thought.

A women can only be sealed to one man, a man can be sealed to many women.

But we do not believe in Mormon thought anymore, right?

I would just let your father enjoy his current marriage, and not worry about the other.

[wescape]

No, I don't believe in Mormon thought anymore, but I was just wondering how Mormon doctrine would deal with my Dad's situation. If you're correct, then it sounds like he gets to spend eternity alone since my mother is considered an apostate.

I'm sorry about your kids and I hope things turn around for them. How old are they?

Wes

[peter_mary]

So, here's something I've wondered about: Does Mormon theology address the issue of eternal marriage in the case of someone like my dad who married a mormon widow? If his current wife was sealed to her 1st husband, doesn't that present a major problem? I'm sure they have some illogical way to try and explain it away this but it seems like a pretty big dilemma.



I'm not a theologian (surprise!), but this is my understanding. That which is sealed up in heaven cannot be undone earth, and as long as both your step-mother and her late husband were faithful to their covenants, then she is sealed to him, and your father is, tragically, SOL. However, the Church is filled with feel-good assurances to well-meaning members in these kinds of situations, and typically what you'll hear is, "The Lord is just, and He will make sure everything works out alright." That probably means that if he's worthy, God will hook him up with someone else whose available (and no doubt "spiritually fertile.")

I'll tell you how Joseph Smith no doubt would have viewed it...he had no problem being married to women who were married to other men. Todd Compton documents several (the actual number escapes me) of women in polyandrous marriages with J.S. and their living husbands. Apparently, in the early days, Joe felt it was fine for a woman to be married to more than one man, and so your poor dad might have to settle for sharing her in the eternities...

What you really are raising, however, is the tip of the iceburg with regard to the illogical consequences of the "forever family." When you break it down, it falls apart, and this is just one of the many ways in which it does so.

Did you realize that the "eternal family" was not defined in the early days as it is now? These days, we have the made-for-TV happy family unit planning on playing Monopoly and eating smores through the eternities, but in Joseph's day, the eternal family was really structured more like a modern-day multi-level marketing organization. The eternal nature came from a linking up of families via a temple adoption ceremony, where ultimately everyone's spiritual geneology needed to link to Joseph Smith, so they could be his ministering angels when he was "the god of a minor planet." I wish to heck I was making this up, but alas, I'm not. Anyway, this idea of all being tied to Joe has largely been lost, but one of the most vocal people about his own adoption was John D. Lee, who was an adopted son (by temple rite only, not as an orphan) of Brigham Young, who in turn was an adopted son of Joseph Smith, thus ensuring John D. Lee's place in the eternities, along with his families and his OWN adopted sons. To further strengthen their ties to Joseph, Brigham and Heber Kimball in particular (and probably Willard Richards, John Taylor, Wilford Woodruff and others, but I can't recall) all married Joseph's plural wives after he was killed so that they would "put in a good word on their behalf with Joseph when they met again in heaven." When we backed away from the whole "Joseph as a God" theology, we had to change the face of the eternal family. Too many unfortunate consequences.

And now you know...the REST of the story!

Paul (Harvey!) :)

[nikki]

No, I don't believe in Mormon thought anymore, but I was just wondering how Mormon doctrine would deal with my Dad's situation. If you're correct, then it sounds like he gets to spend eternity alone since my mother is considered an apostate.

I'm sorry about your kids and I hope things turn around for them. How old are they?

Wes

No, in Mormon thought, other women would be sealed to him, who do not have an 'eternal mate'.

My children are getting into their late teens. Everything began to spin out of control when they were in middle school. They lost all of their teens years, or what should have been, in the on going nightmare.

I feel bad for them to have this important time in life shattered.

People are so incrediable, never would have thought it could have happened.........but it did.

[silverfox]

The eternal nature came from a linking up of families via a temple adoption ceremony, where ultimately everyone's spiritual geneology needed to link to Joseph Smith, so they could be his ministering angels when he was "the god of a minor planet." I wish to heck I was making this up, but alas, I'm not.

Okay, this just creeps me the %$#@ out. Ugh. Joe was sure on a huge ego trip, wasn't he? Sheesh....seriously I often ponder how so many fell for it back in those days. Oh, yes, never mind, the blood oaths, gory temple threats, I mean rituals, the beatings, taking of one's property if they didn't obey.....silly me.

[wescape]

I'm assuming by "ongoing nightmare" you mean your abusive ex-husband? Sounds like it was pretty bad. Well, if it's any consolation, I was pretty out of control in my teens but eventually got turned around. Just let them know you care and that you're there for them. That can make all the difference in the world. :)

Wes

[wescape]

Yeah, the whole forever famliy thing breaks down in the end just like everything else in Mormonism. It boggles my mind how JS convinced so many people of so many lies. Were people just really naive back then or what?

Wes

[lisa]

I was born a member to a rather inactive family, one day when I was about 13 our family all of a sudden became one of the most active famillies in the whole ward. I did not know the why until just a few weeks ago when I asked my father. He said it was because he felt us girls needed to know who God was and needed some sort of religion in our life, so he better start taking us to church, my mom just followed what dad told her to do. I think really I was the rebelious one of the six of us girls. I hated FHE I would rather stand on my head in the corner than to listen to my father preach the word. I always thought sacrement and all those insane meeting where everyone just sat there comatose were just that INSANE!
I married a return Mish. at 18 just like I was suppose to, just not in the Temple...opps. I bore children, did everything my husband commanded me to do. yet I was looked at as the one with the issues for so many years. I really never liked the whole temle thing...it just weirded me out when we finally got around to doing the temple.
I didnt like to sit through boring sacrement meetings where people just sat up there and lied about their self richious lives. My husband sat on the stand week after week, and I know he was living a lie. He was abusing his wife and children for Christs sake. Yet, I was the one with the problems......crazy Lisa is what I became known as. Well, as it all turned out this man wonderful church going man, molested his children and who knows how many others. He went to prison for 30 yrs. Its been difficult. I have had ass holes for bishops that seem to think that all I want is a handout from the church. God we have had our life taken. Then they ask me what I did to contribute to the downfall of the marriage, one bishop opnce told me to just go home and make love to my husband. I really began questionsing the church, after I was disfellowshiped for something I should have never been. I was in pain, and they wanted to kick me out?? I don't get it. I began really studying about four years ago....and began actively leaving the church one step at a time about three years ago. The more I study, and find out the real truths the more angry I become. Joe was a freakin pervert just like so many men in the church! I hate to think that I wasted so many years on a lie. Now I know the truth I am now for once at peace and whole again. The path of leaving is paved with a lot of pain and tears, but I will make it. I lived in Ogden when I was married to the ex, too many people knew too much, so I moved to Cache Valley, same there too many people became too invested in my family staying victims. Just four months ago I left Logan and now live in SLC. For the forst time in a lifetime I am learing what living is all about, and I ,may have lost my family of origin but my choosen family is there for me, and I don't have to be anything or belive in anything I don't feel good about.

Sorry Long stuff;

Lisa

[silverfox]

I was born a member to a rather inactive family, one day when I was about 13 our family all of a sudden became one of the most active famillies in the whole ward. I did not know the why until just a few weeks ago when I asked my father. He said it was because he felt us girls needed to know who God was and needed some sort of religion in our life, so he better start taking us to church, my mom just followed what dad told her to do. I think really I was the rebelious one of the six of us girls. I hated FHE I would rather stand on my head in the corner than to listen to my father preach the word. I always thought sacrement and all those insane meeting where everyone just sat there comatose were just that INSANE!
I married a return Mish. at 18 just like I was suppose to, just not in the Temple...opps. I bore children, did everything my husband commanded me to do. yet I was looked at as the one with the issues for so many years. I really never liked the whole temle thing...it just weirded me out when we finally got around to doing the temple.
I didnt like to sit through boring sacrement meetings where people just sat up there and lied about their self richious lives. My husband sat on the stand week after week, and I know he was living a lie. He was abusing his wife and children for Christs sake. Yet, I was the one with the problems......crazy Lisa is what I became known as. Well, as it all turned out this man wonderful church going man, molested his children and who knows how many others. He went to prison for 30 yrs. Its been difficult. I have had ass holes for bishops that seem to think that all I want is a handout from the church. God we have had our life taken. Then they ask me what I did to contribute to the downfall of the marriage, one bishop opnce told me to just go home and make love to my husband. I really began questionsing the church, after I was disfellowshiped for something I should have never been. I was in pain, and they wanted to kick me out?? I don't get it. I began really studying about four years ago....and began actively leaving the church one step at a time about three years ago. The more I study, and find out the real truths the more angry I become. Joe was a freakin pervert just like so many men in the church! I hate to think that I wasted so many years on a lie. Now I know the truth I am now for once at peace and whole again. The path of leaving is paved with a lot of pain and tears, but I will make it. I lived in Ogden when I was married to the ex, too many people knew too much, so I moved to Cache Valley, same there too many people became too invested in my family staying victims. Just four months ago I left Logan and now live in SLC. For the forst time in a lifetime I am learing what living is all about, and I ,may have lost my family of origin but my choosen family is there for me, and I don't have to be anything or belive in anything I don't feel good about.

Sorry Long stuff;

Lisa

When my first marriage was falling apart (emotional abuse from ex) I was asked the same thing! My ex knew he was wrong and even "confessed" but the bish still came after me. We moved a few times. I ended up staying in a very bad marriage years and years after it was already doomed. Mostly due to "counseling" from not one but several bishops and stake presidents. "pay, pray, obey..FASTER, HARDER, MORE, MORE..." - I got so sick of hearing this. The only result from the advice from those bishops is that my ex felt more empowered to continue treating me and the kids that way. It was hard but I finally got out of the marriage. That was the beginning of my total mistrust of church leaders.

I am sorry for your trials. Sounds like you and your kids have risen high and above them. That's awesome!

[peter_mary]

For the forst time in a lifetime I am learing what living is all about, and I ,may have lost my family of origin but my chosen family is there for me, and I don't have to be anything or belive in anything I don't feel good about.

Lisa

Lisa,

I would be lying if I said "I understand," because I just haven't had to deal with the same stuff you have...but I'm glad you found this place. There are others here who really DO understand.

I tried for a long time to believe that the Church was benign, though based on false a premise. And though I suppose indeed it is largely benign in the lives of many, there are too many stories just like yours that remind us that the institution is capable of creating monsters. That's not to say it ONLY creates monsters, but makes them it does. If I could ask of the Church one thing, it would be to lose the whole Patriarchal/Priesthood authority thing. It costs the women and children of the Church too dearly to be continued.

And while I'm dreaming, I'd like to win the Power Ball, too...

Paul

[free thinker]

Joined the church at 16 and was on fire for the gospel. Had some mormon friends and they fellowshipped me in.

Three years later found me in the mission field, still on fire and raking in souls for mother Mo. Totally convinced this was the kingdom of God.

Came home and lived the perfect little Rm story. Gave all the good report of the successfull Rm. All was well in my Zion. Except for one thing. I came home from the mission field clinically depressed. How about that for a reward eh? Why the depression? Couldnt tell you then, but can now. Absolutely unreasonable personal expectations. Not one church leader ever said. " Hey man, take it a little easier" You dont gotta be celestial today"

Went inactive at 26 and partied HARD!!! Came back to the church at 30 totally broken. Had my "court of Love" , and off I went again on fire. Yabadabadoooo!!!
Hey babababoo were gonna have a picanica!!!!

15 years later begin to have total mormon burnout :( and start to attend only sacrament. Then guess what I found? Uh huh! web site!! Recovery from mormonism.
Ha! Man, unbeleivable!!

Book of Abraham!!
Blood atonement!!
Joseph Smiths little harum!! ( including his 14 year old wife) He was 39 at the time!! Go Joe Go, you go Boy!! :)
Brighams BIG harum!!!
Danites!!
Kinderhook Plates!!
Mountain Meadows Massacre!! ( very nasty) :mad:
Changing Temple ceremony!! ( original stolen from the Masons, along with some pretty funky clothes)
Changing Doctrine!!
Lying for the Lord!!!

Goooahhhlleeee Sargeant Carter!!! How's come you never told me about this stuff? Gomer, sit down and shut-up!!!!

Have I missed anything, or is that quite enough?? Let me tell you something. All you who are thinking folk. This religion has a history full of subterfuge, lying, condescension, folklore magic, adultery, racism, invented doctrine, mind bending craziness, and just plain old wackiness. Enough to fill a volume of encyclopaedias.

I am free of it, and with Martin Luther King I say
" Free at last, free at last, thank God Almighty, free at last" :D

Free Thinker

[silverfox]

Have I missed anything, or is that quite enough?? Let me tell you something. All you who are thinking folk. This religion has a history full of subterfuge, lying, condescension, folklore magic, adultery, racism, invented doctrine, mind bending craziness, and just plain old wackiness. Enough to fill a volume of encyclopaedias.
Free Thinker

I like your sense of humor :) Sadly, I must add that it's not just the history that is full of....well, to summarize, let's just call it crap. I've been involved or have been close to members who were involved with sexual abuse cases that were hushed by leaders only to lead to more victims. The last incident that hit close to home was as recent as last year. Even after it was made clear to the church that LEGALLY they were obligated to report any such cases, a lot are are still sweeping it under the rug. Only thing is, the pile is so high people are starting to trip. The church on a legal basis gets away with way too much. Sickening.

The Mountain Meadow Massacre made me ill. I was just starting to come to terms with the real truths when I was researching this. But it was the one thing that made me remove my garments IMMEDIATELY. I felt like I had those victims' blood on my hands by wearing them and supporting the church (especially "blood oaths", etc, etc, etc) I still become nauseated when I think of it. Unbelievable. Gonna go puke now........(what? no barf smilie yet???)

[silverfox]

My greatest (unmet) desire is to have my TBM husband open his heart and mind to the possibility that the church MIGHT not be all that he thinks it is. Unfortunately, my greatest challenges (related to my post-mormon thinking & goals) are in helping him to see that I am still a good person and a worthy marriage companion. We have been married over 12 years and have a fabulous relationship...outside of our (now) philosophical and religious differences. (He is very aware of my current position, but most other important people in my life are not....part of our current working relationship....not because I don't very much want to be openly "out of the closet"!)

If any one out there is experiencing or has experienced any success in making a marriage (between a TBM and a PM) work, feel free to share your insights & suggestions!

I look forward to "meeting" people here, and hopefully contributing to the dialogue.

"Chris"

When I first "came out" to my husband a couple years ago about my non beliefs I thought for sure we were headed for divorce. I AM SHOCKED SHOCKED SHOCKED!!!! how many marriages end up in divorce just because one spouse no longer believes. I don't know why I am shocked because I used to thing it was good grounds for divorce when I was a TBM. (what the ^%$# was WRONG with me???)

My husband saw how betrayed I felt about the church and it's lies. He saw how emotionally distraught I was and that helped him have a desire to try to understand why I had come to the conclusion that the church was NOT true. He read some of my research, (none of it ANTI mormon, mind you, I used official church websites and resources to support why I no longer believed) He was in shock and still is in shock. He is on the verge of crossing over to being a non believer but the stuff is so engrained in him from his very TBM upbringing that he is now dealing with those feelings of betrayal, etc. He isn't to the point yet where he can proclaim that the church isn't true. Correction, that the "gospel" isn't true. His greatest fear right now is if he completely lets go of the church then there is NOTHING to hold onto. Losing your belief in the church also seems to affect one's belief in God in general.

Now that he has a clue as to why I feel like I do our marriage is better than EVER. I still quietly, though, struggle with the insecurity that at any time he may pop over to the TBM side. sigh

Best wishes

[peter_mary]

What would I like to gain from this group? Mostly, I need to remind myself that I am not crazy, faithless, evil, or stupid. There are a host of good, honest, intelligent people out there who have chosen to take spiritual paths that lead AWAY from the LDS church.


This is one of the hardest hurdles for people as they consider exiting...what am I exiting TO? The Church has taught us well that those who leave the fold are destined for lives of misery, and we believe them because indeed there are examples of people who's lives are pretty messed up who left the Church. They like to wave those examples like banners to remind everyone that it's dangerous out there in the world.

In reality, the world is filled with healthy, interesting, morally-minded, honest, hard-working folks who happen to not be LDS...or not any more. The Church didn't wave that banner in our faces, though, so how would you know? Unless you were brave enough to slip out between Sacrament and Young Women's ;) to find out for yourself!

We exist at Post-Mormon.com for the express purpose of reminding others...and occassionaly ourselves...that we aren't crazy, depraved, faithless, evil or stupid just because we outgrew Mormonism. In fact, I haven't met a Post-Mo yet who didn't end their exit story with, "and I've never been happier."

If any one out there is experiencing or has experienced any success in making a marriage (between a TBM and a PM) work, feel free to share your insights & suggestions!

I have witnessed both the successes and the failures in this particular area. It has been my observation that those who succeed are those who are willing to engage with one another and really seek to understand. Those who close it off and create "taboo topics" pertaining to core beliefs are probably paving the way to trouble. It has also been my observation that the successful ones generally result in the liberalization and very often the liberation of the TBM spouse...funny thing, that freedom.

This is an area of particular interest to me, however, as I have watched dear friends struggle, and as I learn how great the need is. There are oodles of couples out there who were taught, as you were, that the only marriage worth having is one that began in the temple between two partners who kept their covenants, enduring to the end. When one leaves, it creates an enormous existential crisis for the one who stays. What do I do? What is my responsibility to my spouse and my children and the generations to come? In essence, when one leaves, taking off the garments and denying the temple covenants, they have asked for an "eternal divorce." This is heart-breaking to the one who stays! When you said "I will," you said that for "time and ALL ETERNITY," and now you've backed out and said, from your partner's perspective, "I changed my mind...just time." That can hurt.

Yet no one leaves the Church and says to themselves, "Family is no longer important...that's just a Mormon value." Of course not. One in/one out couples have just as much desire to keep their marriages in tact as TBM couples, but there are challenges.

It's my hope to one day create a forum on this website for One in/One out couples to specifically explore the issues that are unique to their situation, and Jeff share's that interest. There's just a lot that's got to be done first! In the meantime, I cannot recommend enough finding a good marriage counselor (ask around...don't just blindly choose, and DON'T go through LDS Social Services!) and creating an environment where the two of you can really talk it out. Understanding is, as in all things, the key.

I look forward to "meeting" people here, and hopefully contributing to the dialogue.

And we look forward to hearing those contributions!

Paul

[free thinker]

I have to agree with the idea, or reality, of outgrowing mormonism. That is what it most feels like to me. I do have some anger, and feelings of betrayal. ( some in the other of my posts) Overall though, I am just glad to be free. ;) It has been my experience that most people try to live lives of usefulness and integrity. These values are not owned by mormons. The church does definately use fear and shame to keep people locked in. This site gives people like me, and you, and many others, a community to connect with. A group of people who dont want to get to the end of their lives, only to realize ,all they ever were was mormon. I want more than that. :)

Free Thinker

[bzcutah]

Im Ryan, in Springville Utah.

I just found your message board, when I did a search on google for Utah suicide. I very much enjoyed the article "Enigma".

http://www.post-mormons.com/the_enigma.htm

I am a former Mormon, and one who is concerned about the influence of Mormonism on Utah.

I recently lost my 16 year old brother to depression.
Depression seems to be a common Utah problem.

I started a website too, that is dedicated to Utah depression.

Anyway, I just wanted to say thanks for the info!

Sincerely,
Ryan

[silverfox]

Im Ryan, in Springville Utah.

I just found your message board, when I did a search on google for Utah suicide. I very much enjoyed the article "Enigma".

http://www.post-mormons.com/the_enigma.htm

I am a former Mormon, and one who is concerned about the influence of Mormonism on Utah.

I recently lost my 16 year old brother to depression.
Depression seems to be a common Utah problem.

I started a website too, that is dedicated to Utah depression.

Anyway, I just wanted to say thanks for the info!

Sincerely,
Ryan

Sorry, Ryan, about your brother.

I mentored troubled teen girls. In the beginning I was SHOCKED, HORRIFIED at the reaction of parents AND bishops regarding depression and suicidal thoughts in the youth. Unbelievable!!!! Their reaction was more of a desire to control and/or punish rather than try to understand the cause. Adding more reason for the child to be depressed. Parents forcing their children to bishops like they have committed some hideous sin. OH MY GOSH MY CHILD DOESN'T FIT "THE MOLD"!!!! BISHOP, HELP!!!! WE WON'T SETTLE FOR LESS THAN PERFECTION!!!! (like perfection is ever possible)

Heartbreaking.

[bzcutah]

I have been writting a lot, since the passing of my brother.

He was not just my 16 year old brother, but my best friend.


I would like to share a little about him. But I will start a different thread about that.

I realize that the problem with depression in Utah effects many young girls. Its sad of the attitude that we as Utahans face with the 'social norm', and trying not to draw attention to issues of critical seriousness.

Is the person who wrote the article that I cited a member of this message board? Is it you SilverFox?
Because I want to say "nice job," and again. Thanks!

[Born Free]

There are lots of members...I'd like to hear about you. So if you'd like please respond and tell us a little about yourselves....how long you were/have been a member, what you'd like to gain from this board, etc, etc.

I am rapidly approaching 54, ExMo, happily married to my ExMo partner. We have 4 adult ExMo children, and as of yesterday 5 NeverMo grandsons (Born Free!).

We live in the great-down-under - Australia, a land settled by convicts (for stealing books in my ancestors case), not pilgrams. I was raised in a Mission, my wife in a Stake. I did not serve a mission, and we were married in the Temple in New Zealand about 1973. (Funny story there. Our eldest daughter, making the transition out of nappies (diapers for the Yanks) at the time, dropped her panties and defecated on the Temple steps, whilst we were otherwise occupied. She was never one to be obtuse! A sign maybe?)

We left 1987, excommunicated as discussed elsewhere, after years of feeling stuck between a rock and a hard place - couldn't get excited about in; too afraid to depart. We had been members since convert parents joined when we were children, so for all intent and purpose, raised in MoLand. We met on a Church Youth Conference.

I am hoping to clear or reduce some residual anger at the time and energy wasted in years of disassociated numbness, trying to straddle the rational world and MoLand. I hope I can play some small part in making it easier for others to see ways to move on faster than we did.

I would probably summarise myself as an agnostic, who is exploring what a God beyond theism might look like. Sound messy? Get over it! Life is!

I believe that trying to capture and replicate 'spirituality' by formula, as religion does, is as viable and unhealthy as believing you can capture a great sexual experience.

My definition of 'spirituality' is being all that I might be, to live life fully and sustainably.

Daryl

[silverfox]

I would probably summarise myself as an agnostic, who is exploring what a God beyond theism might look like. Sound messy? Get over it! Life is!

Daryl

Boy, ain't THAT the truth??? One of my dreams before I leave this world is to travel to Austrailia. I hear that people answer their doors nekkid. (don't tell me the truth, just let me have my fantasy, okay???)

And I also hear kangaroo are as common there as deer are here. Maybe even more so. That would be a sight to see (as long as they keep their distance)

[Born Free]

Boy, ain't THAT the truth??? One of my dreams before I leave this world is to travel to Austrailia. I hear that people answer their doors nekkid. (don't tell me the truth, just let me have my fantasy, okay???)

And I also hear kangaroo are as common there as deer are here. Maybe even more so. That would be a sight to see (as long as they keep their distance)


Silverfox,

You are a darling. I am not sure where you sourced the story re nekkidness, but in clearly took a firm hold in your memory.

I live in Queensland, the same state as the Great Barrier Reef. It was about 33 celsius yesterday, so we were in and out of the pool about 4 times. Fortunately, our back yard is very private, so we do not rush from the pool, via a towel to TGs!! :) That said, I do not answer the door in the nik.

Kangaroos are common throughout Australia, although they do not hop down city streets, as some seem to expect. Probably like deer, in many rural areas, hitting them with a car is common, and potentially dangerous. They are cute (unless they are bucks (males), who in some varieties can stand up well over 6ft tall, and get dangerous, particularly when it is mating season). The females with their young that nip in and out of the pouch can be most endearing and quite safe.

I suspect the story re naked door-answeres probably came from missionaries who found a house that thought they might have a laugh at the missionaries expense. There was a case (as in legal) in the papers down here a few years back of a household who invited the missionaries and gave them hash biscuits (cookies to you). Laughed my tuch off!

Daryl

[free thinker]

I am rapidly approaching 54, ExMo, happily married to my ExMo partner. We have 4 adult ExMo children, and as of yesterday 5 NeverMo grandsons (Born Free!).

We live in the great-down-under - Australia, a land settled by convicts (for stealing books in my ancestors case), not pilgrams. I was raised in a Mission, my wife in a Stake. I did not serve a mission, and we were married in the Temple in New Zealand about 1973. (Funny story there. Our eldest daughter, making the transition out of nappies (diapers for the Yanks) at the time, dropped her panties and defecated on the Temple steps, whilst we were otherwise occupied. She was never one to be obtuse! A sign maybe?)

We left 1987, excommunicated as discussed elsewhere, after years of feeling stuck between a rock and a hard place - couldn't get excited about in; too afraid to depart. We had been members since convert parents joined when we were children, so for all intent and purpose, raised in MoLand. We met on a Church Youth Conference.

I am hoping to clear or reduce some residual anger at the time and energy wasted in years of disassociated numbness, trying to straddle the rational world and MoLand. I hope I can play some small part in making it easier for others to see ways to move on faster than we did.

I would probably summarise myself as an agnostic, who is exploring what a God beyond theism might look like. Sound messy? Get over it! Life is!

I believe that trying to capture and replicate 'spirituality' by formula, as religion does, is as viable and unhealthy as believing you can capture a great sexual experience.

My definition of 'spirituality' is being all that I might be, to live life fully and sustainably.

Daryl

One of my favorite groups ,and aussies, as you know! They are gonne be on a Mark Burnett ,( survivor guy) show this summer. Good on ya mate!!

Free Thinker

[silverfox]

Silverfox,

I suspect the story re naked door-answeres probably came from missionaries who found a house that thought they might have a laugh at the missionaries expense. There was a case (as in legal) in the papers down here a few years back of a household who invited the missionaries and gave them hash biscuits (cookies to you). Laughed my tuch off!

Daryl

Yeahhhhhhh, it was from some mishie farewell I attended probably 20 yrs ago. You went and burst my bubble. sniff sniff (just kidding)

I need to live somewhere that has no snow and no temps below 80 degrees on any given day. How's the humidity? (I would also like low humidity, picky, picky, picky I am) :)

[silverfox]

Okay, sturgdw - it's an omen!

I've seen the commercial for Australia vacations(www.australia.com) FIVE TIMES today. FIVE!!!!! I need to watch TV more often. I am meant to be there, I know it! I can feel the burning in my bossom. (bosom? bosoms? bossoms??? Hell, I still haven't figured out how it's spelled, anyway, whatever....)

[stuckasamo]

hi I'm a new member. don't want to say too much for fear of spying Mormons who may do me in! I'm currently in Mormon school - yep, one of the BYUs, God help me - and I'm a BIC-turned closet apostate. I personally believe that if I can make it through college here, I can accomplish ANYTHING! Any advice for keeping my sanity? I'm so afraid that one day in class during prayer or in church during another brain-washing session I'll just get up and run out screaming! :eek:

[Born Free]

Yeahhhhhhh, it was from some mishie farewell I attended probably 20 yrs ago. You went and burst my bubble. sniff sniff (just kidding)

I need to live somewhere that has no snow and no temps below 80 degrees on any given day. How's the humidity? (I would also like low humidity, picky, picky, picky I am) :)

'Beautiful one day, perfect the next!' is the states marketing tag.

But there is plenty of humidity here - about 60-70% I would guess at present, but then again that is why minimal clothes are so attractive, if you can get away with it, and remember toi get dressed to answer the door!!

The day/night cricket match was abandoned last week due to rain - washed out. But, if you are like my wife, anything to stop to flow of sport can't be a bad thing! :eek:

[Born Free]

hi I'm a new member. don't want to say too much for fear of spying Mormons who may do me in! I'm currently in Mormon school - yep, one of the BYUs, God help me - and I'm a BIC-turned closet apostate. I personally believe that if I can make it through college here, I can accomplish ANYTHING! Any advice for keeping my sanity? I'm so afraid that one day in class during prayer or in church during another brain-washing session I'll just get up and run out screaming! :eek:

stuckasamo,

Sorry, I did not spot this posting until after I replied to the other.

Wow, I feel for you. Residing in a nuthouse is never as problematic as when you work out that is what it is. My guess would be that humour is the key. Locate a group of friends with whom you can grab your hair and scream occasionally to maintain your sanity.

You don't say how long you have to 'endure to the end'. (sorry about the sick humour).

Daryl

[peter_mary]

hi I'm a new member. don't want to say too much for fear of spying Mormons who may do me in! I'm currently in Mormon school - yep, one of the BYUs, God help me - and I'm a BIC-turned closet apostate. I personally believe that if I can make it through college here, I can accomplish ANYTHING! Any advice for keeping my sanity? I'm so afraid that one day in class during prayer or in church during another brain-washing session I'll just get up and run out screaming! :eek:

After class, RUN home, lock your doors, and log on here. Screaming will just draw unwanted attention to the fact that you have extra energy by virtue of the caffeine you are now free to drink! :D

Welcome to Post-Mo...you can check out any time you like, but you can never leave... :cool: (Actually, if you're in school now, you might never have been an Eagles fan, and that one might have been lost on you...next time I'll try to have something by Blink182 or Dashboard Confessionals...)

Paul

[Born Free]

After class, RUN home, lock your doors, and log on here. Screaming will just draw unwanted attention to the fact that you have extra energy by virtue of the caffeine you are now free to drink! :D

Welcome to Post-Mo...you can check out any time you like, but you can never leave... :cool: (Actually, if you're in school now, you might never have been an Eagles fan, and that one might have been lost on you...next time I'll try to have something by Blink182 or Dashboard Confessionals...)

Paul

I am with Paul. Thank God for the internet.

[silverfox]

hi I'm a new member. don't want to say too much for fear of spying Mormons who may do me in! I'm currently in Mormon school - yep, one of the BYUs, God help me - and I'm a BIC-turned closet apostate. I personally believe that if I can make it through college here, I can accomplish ANYTHING! Any advice for keeping my sanity? I'm so afraid that one day in class during prayer or in church during another brain-washing session I'll just get up and run out screaming! :eek:

Welcome! I am excited to see members realize when they are YOUNG that the church is crap. You have a better chance at a much more fulfilling life. If you can dodge all the typical stuff that is expected of you (temple marriage, mission, babies and more babies, church calling, etc) then you have a very good chance of having a very happy spiritual life. My advice...enjoy as much of life as you can while you can, marry for love not worthiness, etc. Hope to see you around again.

[stuckasamo]

Welcome! I am excited to see members realize when they are YOUNG that the church is crap. You have a better chance at a much more fulfilling life. If you can dodge all the typical stuff that is expected of you (temple marriage, mission, babies and more babies, church calling, etc) then you have a very good chance of having a very happy spiritual life. My advice...enjoy as much of life as you can while you can, marry for love not worthiness, etc. Hope to see you around again.

I really appreciate the great feedback and support! Yes, I know that because I am young, I will not be wasting my life on this bullshit. I'm still looking around wondering how so many sheeple can believe this stuff. I heard a saying somewhere: A lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is just putting on its shoes. My fervent hope is to see the church collapse, but I think it may have too much power at this point. As long as there are fresh fish in the Empty Sea and women who think their purpose in life is only to marry an RM and bear an obscene amount of his children, I have little hope. But I will come to this board every day just to keep my sanity. Unless my bishop's "power of perception" actually decides to exist and he discerns (that is such a Mormon word BTW) that I'm actully a cappucino-enjoying, swear word-emitting, free-thinking female. :p

[free thinker]

I really appreciate the great feedback and support! Yes, I know that because I am young, I will not be wasting my life on this bullshit. I'm still looking around wondering how so many sheeple can believe this stuff. I heard a saying somewhere: A lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is just putting on its shoes. My fervent hope is to see the church collapse, but I think it may have too much power at this point. As long as there are fresh fish in the Empty Sea and women who think their purpose in life is only to marry an RM and bear an obscene amount of his children, I have little hope. But I will come to this board every day just to keep my sanity. Unless my bishop's "power of perception" actually decides to exist and he discerns (that is such a Mormon word BTW) that I'm actully a cappucino-enjoying, swear word-emitting, free-thinking female. :p

Not sure if the best part about being post-mo is more comfortable underwear, or the enjoyment I get from a great cup-o-joe at the corner Starbucks!!

Either way eh? Like your sassy tude!! Give em hell!! :cool:

Free Thinker

[pomo]

Decided to see what all the buzz was about.
Everybody's raving about the new Peepstone over on the other Exmo boards.
I've been around forever it seems like. At first I was just an ignorant TBM and proud of it. Pretty much defending the church against all those anti's all over the internet. Then I decided to actually investigate some of those nasty rumors I'd heard on the internet discussion boards. Somebody warned me not to ask too many questions or I'd be headed down the slippery slope. I expressed my doubts anonymouslyat first, trying my best to resolve them. Confronting my doubts was just a hobby at first, until 9-11-01.
Everything changed for me on that day.
That was the armagedon of my faith.
How could a loving God allow 12 religious zealots to kill so many of my fellow men and women?
I saw my face in the horrified face of my fellow man jumping off the 70th floor of a collapsing WTC.
My faith in a loving God portrayed by Mormonism, came crashing to the ground along with the WTC.
What restored my faith after 9-11 was not the hollow void of Mormonism, but the selfless love displayed by those who came to rescue their fallen comerades, and waded into the smoldering collapsing rubble caused by religion. That was me. I saw my face in the faces of the brave men and women who wrote their social security numbers on their arms knowing that the chances were good that they would not be coming out alive, but went in anyways, with only the hope of saving a fallen comerade. I knew then that we would be ok. I knew then that human decency would overcome the worst humanity had to dish out. I knew then that it would not be God who saved us, it would be good, decent human beings, like those heros of 9-11.
It was difficult however, as a married middle aged man, with a TBM wife, 4 children born in the church and having built my whole life centered around the Mormon church. It took me 2 years to convince my TBM wife that it was a pack of lies. Once she read in Todd Compton's ISL, that Joseph Smith screwed other men's wives, while some of them were out serving missions for the church, it was over for her. She never looked back. Even though it was difficult, losing many of the relationships we'd established.
That part of our lives is over however.
We resigned from the church and we are much happier now, living normal lives, without the magic world view we once held. Not subject to the same guilt and fears that once governed our lives.
It's been a godsend to have a community of like minded people to validate my newfound freedom and authenticate and articulate my world view.
I look forward to associating with you on this board.
I already know a few of you from elsewhere in the PoMo cyber world.
This looks like a very interesting place.

[peter_mary]

Everything changed for me on that day.
That was the armagedon of my faith.



Out of the ashes rises the Phoenix, eh? I think many people of all faiths had a similar experience on 9-11. It's inconceivable that folks on both sides of that issue could ascribe devine motivations for such a horrible act--either it was the will of Allah to kill as many of the infidel as possible, or the will of God to cause a wake-up call to America that we have forgotten him, or in the case of the Mormons, "look how few of us were killed! We MUST belong to the true Church!"

:(

Thanks for posting your story, and welcome!

Paul

[michael]

Hello everyone-
I've been reading for a while and finally decided to let you know I'm here. I'm not really post-mo, given that I still go nearly every week for family reasons. But mentally, I fit here in many ways.

Thanks for the good site!

[free thinker]

Decided to see what all the buzz was about.
Everybody's raving about the new Peepstone over on the other Exmo boards.
I've been around forever it seems like. At first I was just an ignorant TBM and proud of it. Pretty much defending the church against all those anti's all over the internet. Then I decided to actually investigate some of those nasty rumors I'd heard on the internet discussion boards. Somebody warned me not to ask too many questions or I'd be headed down the slippery slope. I expressed my doubts anonymouslyat first, trying my best to resolve them. Confronting my doubts was just a hobby at first, until 9-11-01.
Everything changed for me on that day.
That was the armagedon of my faith.
How could a loving God allow 12 religious zealots to kill so many of my fellow men and women?
I saw my face in the horrified face of my fellow man jumping off the 70th floor of a collapsing WTC.
My faith in a loving God portrayed by Mormonism, came crashing to the ground along with the WTC.
What restored my faith after 9-11 was not the hollow void of Mormonism, but the selfless love displayed by those who came to rescue their fallen comerades, and waded into the smoldering collapsing rubble caused by religion. That was me. I saw my face in the faces of the brave men and women who wrote their social security numbers on their arms knowing that the chances were good that they would not be coming out alive, but went in anyways, with only the hope of saving a fallen comerade. I knew then that we would be ok. I knew then that human decency would overcome the worst humanity had to dish out. I knew then that it would not be God who saved us, it would be good, decent human beings, like those heros of 9-11.
It was difficult however, as a married middle aged man, with a TBM wife, 4 children born in the church and having built my whole life centered around the Mormon church. It took me 2 years to convince my TBM wife that it was a pack of lies. Once she read in Todd Compton's ISL, that Joseph Smith screwed other men's wives, while some of them were out serving missions for the church, it was over for her. She never looked back. Even though it was difficult, losing many of the relationships we'd established.
That part of our lives is over however.
We resigned from the church and we are much happier now, living normal lives, without the magic world view we once held. Not subject to the same guilt and fears that once governed our lives.
It's been a godsend to have a community of like minded people to validate my newfound freedom and authenticate and articulate my world view.
I look forward to associating with you on this board.
I already know a few of you from elsewhere in the PoMo cyber world.
This looks like a very interesting place.

September 11th affected me also. It made me realize life can be very uncertain. It changed me inside, and I have never been the same. I could not put words to the change until I started reading items at ex-mo, and now here. I simply realized that I was grinding my life away over involved in a religion that asks way too much of it's adherents. Then, like you, I read Comptons book, and I was mad as hell. All that time trying to live this clean and upright life, only to find out that Joseph Smith was living a sexually libertine life. The duplicity made me sick.
I am so much happier now since I left. ;)
Glad you posted. Look forward to seeing you around.

Free Thinker

[silverfox]

Decided to see what all the buzz was about.
.

Welcome! How SWEET that your family exited along with you. That's wonderful!

[silverfox]

Hello everyone-
I've been reading for a while and finally decided to let you know I'm here. I'm not really post-mo, given that I still go nearly every week for family reasons. But mentally, I fit here in many ways.

Thanks for the good site!

Hi, Michael! Glad you stopped lurking and spoke up! I look forward to getting to know you.

I admire anyone who can sit through church knowing it's a bunch of BS. I really struggle with this. The last time I attended was when my grandbaby was blessed. I left right after the blessing. Funny, though I felt more at home as an ex mo than I EVER did as a TBM. I think maybe because I knew they no longer had any control over me in anyway what so ever. I didn't stay to listen to the testimonies or anything. I probably would have moaned and groaned loud enough for all to hear. That's probably why I left early! haha

[Jeff_Ricks]

Decided to see what all the buzz was about.
Everybody's raving about the new Peepstone over on the other Exmo boards.

Welcome! Welcome! Sabbath morning now you rest from every care. Welcome welcome is your dawning, holy smokes it's great out here!

Hey, where's all the hub-bub about Peep Stone? You have me curious.

Jeff

[square_peg]

Hello everyone-
I've been reading for a while and finally decided to let you know I'm here. I'm not really post-mo, given that I still go nearly every week for family reasons. But mentally, I fit here in many ways.

Thanks for the good site!

Michael,

One of the things that I like about this discussion board is that there is so much diversity, but very little judgment in/from the members. Family reasons for "still going" can be very compelling...I can certainly relate to that. And, if that is still your situation (as it is mine), I think it is even MORE important to find places like this where our MENTAL sides can come out of the closet.

Welcome.

Noelle

[dogzilla]

My father and stepmother are TBM mormons. (Forgive me, sometimes I forget to type that second "m". So sue me. ;) )

Anyway, my sister and I went to live with them when I was about 11 or 12. When I was 14 I got in trouble for messing around with boys so I chose to be baptised. I took the lessons again and went through all that because I thought that would be the only way to earn back my dad's love, trust and respect. I was relieved to discover that my virtue would be restored by baptism. One dunk under water and I'd be clean. It was like getting a "do over." I would be worthy to be loved -- by my dad, God, and everyone else. It worked, for a short time.

One day when I was 14 or 15, my stepmother's son returned to Ohio where we lived. He was 30 years old, married and had three kids and was supposedly active in the Church in Denver, where his family lived. Turns out his wife had thrown him out of the house for cheating on her and he returned to Ohio while the divorce proceedings took place.

Within a week of his return, he'd climbed into my bed at night so many times I'd lost count. I was exhausted, having not slept in a week. My school work was suffering. About once an hour, he'd try to get into bed with me, all night until morning. The next day he'd act like nothing had happened. After a while, I found myself having sex with him just so he would leave me alone. That went on for the better part of a summer. Finally, he found a girlfriend and left me alone for good.

Evidently, he'd told one of his sisters, who told my stepmom, who told my dad, who literally threw me into the Bishop's office to "confess." As if any 14 year old girl on the planet should be held responsible for abuse. And so that went on. At least my step-brother was excommunicated, but I was put on probation. I was horrified. Even at that age, I knew enough about the law to know that I shouldn't be punished. As I got older and look back at that disciplinary action, I get furious all over again.

The law was never called; my stepbrother never did the time he should have. The abuse was never reported to Children's Services, he got no therapy, help or counseling and probably still abuses youung girls, wherever he is. We were sent to a church "family counselor" who basically blamed me and my behavior for the whole thing. As my dad was filling out the paperwork prior to the first session, he got to the question, "Why are you here?" He turned to us and asked, "why are we here?" My stepmom said, "To find out why Dogzilla is so drawn to older men and cure her." So she blamed me, too. It was all my fault. Then my dad wrote, "to learn to communicate better and draw closer together as a family." To this day, I forgave my dad for every mistake he ever made as a parent, because he did the right thing that day. He never blamed me or made me feel as though I should feel responsible. He protected me best he could and I will always be grateful for that. My stepmom can rot in hell... or a nursing home, someday... for all I care.

Six months later, I asked the Bishop when I'd be released from my probation. He told me he didn't think I'd forgiven myself yet, so he wanted to continue the probation a little longer. Looking back, I realize that I hadn't forgiven myself because I hadn't blamed myself. I behaved exactly the same for a few more months until the Bishop decided I was ready to be released from probation.

Not long after that -- maybe a couple years -- we had a snow day. I was a senior in high school. That same Bishop's wife called me and asked if she could come over and take me to lunch because she has something she wanted to talk to me about. She had two sons, one a year older than I and one a year younger. At lunch, she told me that the younger son had wanted to ask me out but she refused to allow him to because my spirituality was suspect. She had concerns that her son would not return from a date with me with his virtue intact. Now, the younger son wanted to ask me out and she'd decided to relent and let him. (He was far more rebellious and persistent than the older son, who I'd had a crush on for several years.) She wanted my assurance that her boy would return from dates with me still temple-worthy and mission-worthy. She also insisted, since she was treating me like an adult, that I not share the conversation with my parents or anyone else.

Since I'd been through the sexual abuse thing, I knew right away that any time an adult asks you to keep a secret, you should probably go straight to your parents. So that's what I did. My dad was first or second counselor to the bishop at the time -- or maybe it was ward mission leader, I can't remember. He listened carefully, said he'd handle it, and I never heard another word about it.

I wondered a couple things: first, how could this woman possibly have known or believed that I had sufficient experience to corrupt her sons? The only way would be if her husband violated my privacy and TOLD her what I'd been through his Bishop's Court about. Second, how could she possibly assume that my spiritual integrity meant nothing to me? Why was the onus on me to protect everyone's temple-worthiness? Didn't anyone care if I wanted to remain worthy? (My dad did! heh.)

I just received my letter notifying me that I am no longer a moron, although I haven't attended church since I left for college in 1987. I still resent being put on probation and being told, since the bishop's court decisions are supposedly divinely inspired, that I should worship a God who holds 14-year-old girls responsible (at least partially) for their own sexual abuse. I often wonder if Elizabeth Smart was put on probation, because God would be consistent with his decisions, wouldn't he?
I still resent that woman's intrusion into my personal life. I still believe I am not worthy of being loved. I am 35 years old and have never married. I haven't even had a boyfriend for several years because, in my twisted mind, who would want me? I'm tainted goods.

I joined this board today to share my story and hear other stories. Maybe involvement here will help me my hear to feel what my mind already knows: I'm not really tainted goods. I deserve to be loved by a really great guy who isn't a liar and won't take advantage of me.

Anyway, thanks for reading all this. I'll see you on the boards!

[pomo]

September 11th affected me also. It made me realize life can be very uncertain. It changed me inside, and I have never been the same. I could not put words to the change until I started reading items at ex-mo, and now here. I simply realized that I was grinding my life away over involved in a religion that asks way too much of it's adherents......
Free Thinker

and I would add, gives too little in return.

I probably could have gone either way after 9-11. I had up until that day believed that religion was a way for us to deal with the trials in life, like death, disappointment, and temptation. I had depended upon my faith to help me explain the loss of loved ones. It gave me hope that we would all be reunited together in the afterlife. After all, we were all sealed together in the temple. It made perfect sense to me at the time.
After 9-11 I again looked towards my faith to answer some tough questions. I looked to the so-called "mouthpiece of God" to answer for 9-11, where was the divine intervention on behalf of my innocent fellow men? I attended the so-called special broadcast to the world from the so-called True church, two days after 9-11, fully expecting closure, fully expecting answers from the so-called prophet.
Nothing. Not one word had any meaning. Hollow platitudes between souless hymns. I come to get answers to serious questions and all you give me is MoTab hymns and not a word of comfort? Not one word of committal? Not one word of inspiration. Not one word of explanation?
Religion is responsible for the death of 5,000 of my innocent fellow men and the so-called prophet of God has nothing to say about it? How is that possible? No denunciation of the inhamanity, the cruelty, the pure evil of it all? WTF?!?!?!?!?!?
Damn religion to hell!!!!!!!
Damn you to hell you false prophet!!!!!
People are dying in the name of Allah and God and all you have to say is, "Please girls, no more than one earing per ear and no tatoos. And boys, no tatoos and no earings."?!?!?!?!?!
That is the most significant declaration you have for this generation? Your greatest contribution to the world is grabbing up as much land as possible for your McTemples and spending extortion money buying shopping malls and main streets in SLC so you can restrict constitutional freedoms of speech, assembly and worship? To hell with you and your lies. My conscience will not allow me to support a racist, bigoted, sexist, homophobic religion, all of which is anything but christ-like. I will not bring up my children to learn hatred of themselves and others who do not meet the artificial mold of Mormonism. I don't fit it and neither do they. It's an impossible standard to meet. Insisting it is acheivable only brings self loathing and guilt.
The world would be much better off without religion to put up walls and separate us and for us to kill each other over. Destroy the damned walls! Destroy the partitions that separate us from our conscience, humanity, the love of our fellow men, and our human decency, empathy and understanding.
Now I realize that I have one shot at getting it right. This is it. I need to love my fellow men as myself, regardless of race, religion, nationalitiy, sex, sexual orientation, social status, economic status, or the myriad of other things that separate us as human beings. The more of us who manage to overcome inhumanity with humanity, the closer we get to acheiving heaven on earth, the paradise we all seek, the garden of eden we all seek to create, the utopia, which is perhaps unattainable, but well worth the effort.
And if there turns out to be an afterlife, which I now realize is pure speculation, but still maintain hope there is, then its a bonus. If we have lived our lives full of love and compassion and understanding and empathy for our fellow men and done what we can to make it a better world than the one we were born into, that is immortality, that is what we take with us when we go, the peace of knowing that life will be better for the next generation, than it was for us. Staying alive in the hearts of those who love us, may be the only sure form of immortality.

Peace.

[pomo]

I'm not really tainted goods. I deserve to be loved by a really great guy who isn't a liar and won't take advantage of me.


IT IS NOT YOUR FAULT!
Sue the church!
Sue the bastard BIL who abused you.
Contact the authorities. Expose him for the pedophile he is. If you suspect that he may be taking advantage of other young women, you have a moral obligation to hold him accountable.
The church enabled him by not holding him accountable. They enabled him to go on abusing you and others by not turning him in to the authorities at the time.
This is not the first or the last time the church has been sued successfully over their lack of action.
It is unconscionable that your bishop and step mother blamed a 14 y.o. for being raped by a man over twice her age. They need to be held accountable.
This is not the first time the church has been sued for protecting preisthood holding perpetrators and blaming victims for being abused.
I have a good friend who I grew up with who is suing the church for millions right now for their part in enabling a scout master to abuse him and many of my friends from the scout troop I grew up in over the course of many years.
He will prevail and at least get the satisfaction of extracting some penalty out of the so-called true church for their part in puting a known pedophile in charge of a scout troop.
Hit them where it counts, in the pocket book and in the press.
It will do wonders for your therapy.
You sound like a wonderful young woman, to have overcome what you have been through. I'd be proud to have you as a daugher or a daugher in law.
Be strong.
Fight back.
Take courage.
You could be a very rich person.
If you need to talk to my friend's lawyer I'd be happy to share the information with you.

[pomo]

Out of the ashes rises the Phoenix, eh? I think many people of all faiths had a similar experience on 9-11. It's inconceivable that folks on both sides of that issue could ascribe devine motivations for such a horrible act--either it was the will of Allah to kill as many of the infidel as possible, or the will of God to cause a wake-up call to America that we have forgotten him, or in the case of the Mormons, "look how few of us were killed! We MUST belong to the true Church!"

:(

Thanks for posting your story, and welcome!

Paul

Thank you.
I love the image of the Phoenix rising out of the ashes. I can really use that.
Yeah, how self centered and egomaniacal do you have to be to see a tragedy like 9-11 or the Asian Tsunami in terms what a miracle it is that more Mormons were not killed. You have to have your head lodged pretty far up your ass to totally ignore the 170,000 men women and children who were killed in one fell swoop, and to maintain that there is some sort of divine intervention where god selects one individual to be spared out of the 170,000, just because he is mormon and decided to go to inland to church on Sunday.
That is actually the gist of a faith promoting story in the current church news, by all accounts. (I wouldn't really know since I have not seen a church news in years)

[pomo]

Welcome! Welcome! Sabbath morning now you rest from every care. Welcome welcome is your dawning, holy smokes it's great out here!

Hey, where's all the hub-bub about Peep Stone? You have me curious.

Jeff

The god of reason, Rfm & the Foyer, Bob McCue (aka philo) among others, have referenced this board and Peepstone on the Foyer and RfM.
You might be seeing quite a few new members from those sites, like me.

http://www.aimoo.com/forum/postview.cfm?id=418550&CategoryID=121363&startcat=1&ThreadID=1888554

[dogzilla]

IT IS NOT YOUR FAULT!
Sue the church!
<snip>
You sound like a wonderful young woman, to have overcome what you have been through. I'd be proud to have you as a daugher or a daugher in law.
Be strong.
Fight back.
Take courage.
You could be a very rich person.
If you need to talk to my friend's lawyer I'd be happy to share the information with you.

Thank you for your kind words. I find that living well really is the best revenge. After college, I moved 1,200 miles away from the family (by myself) and have done very well for myself since then. In fact, I really only have trouble with intimate relationships -- every other area of my life is hunky dory and I'm very happy. People tell me I'm one of the most peaceful and centered people they know. Didn't get there overnight, I assure you. :D

I'm not terribly interested in resurrecting all those old hurt feelings that I thought I've dealt with already and so I'm not terribly fond of the idea of pursuing a lawsuit. I've let go of most of my anger and bitterness as a result of the church's enabling and so the temptation to hit 'em where it hurts really isn't there. I just want to move forward in my quest to be a whole person who doesn't have to live in fear of being taken advantage of.

I do want to clarify on thing: neither the church, nor my stepmom enabled him to continue abusing me. He wasn't exactly held accountable by the law of the land, but they didn't enable him to continue. The abuse had actually stopped on its own accord (when he found the girlfriend) several months before the story coming out in the wash, so to speak. He had moved out of our house, and into his dad's -- who I understand also had a history of abusing young women. I found out later that several (if not all) of my stepmom's four daughters also suffered abuse, I think, at the hands of their grandfather. That woman has suffered plenty from the horrible cycles that have not stopped in her family. I'm not going to sue her son, who I don't think any of us could find if we tried. Those people have enough problems and don't need any help from me to have miserable lives. You reap what you sow, and her family has done that without question. She can wallow in her selfishness; it suits her.

On the other hand, your words about other people suffering from his behavior do concern me. I have no way of knowing if his behavior continued; I can only assume it has. I think I'd rather speak to girls who have been through the same thing and help them work through the same issues I've had, than drag my family through a lengthy legal battle over something that happened twenty years ago. Anyone who reads this story is welcome to share my e-mail address with women you may know who had the same or similar things happen to them. I'd be happy to hold someone else's hand, emotionally and spiritually speaking, through this. That would give me a much better feeling about myself than, "sue the bastards," no matter how appealing the latter may sound.

In short, I'd rather turn this into an opportunity to do some real good for real people instead of paying for some lawyer's new boat. You know, make lemonade and all that.

Finally, I'd also like to give my dad credit where credit is due. He is the only person who had my back and supported me through all that. He, a priesthood holder, never blamed me, nor did he enable my stepbrother. In fact, they came to blows at one point and I was glad to see my dad could -- and did -- kick his ass. I don't believe he pressed charges because he didn't want to destroy his marriage, which I don't blame him for. Dad demonstrated that he loves me no matter what, and in the end, that's all that matters.

And I know (now) it's not my fault. Although I appreciate hearing it from outside sources from time to time.

[Ken S.]

I was born mormon, so I had no choice. My mom was a fundy christian convert and my dad BIC. My mom converted after they were married and is still not sure if she's a mormon or christian (she's kind of a composite of both, which can be WAY annoying). Anyway I was raised in a somewhat unconvetional mormon environment. I could get away with open questioning at home, a luxury not afforded to many in the heart of mormondom. I was also born with a skeptic streak so I had a lot of questions. I did the normal little kid BIC stuff like everyone else. As I got older some of the questions I had didn't get answered very well ,and I got tired of hearing I wasn't yet ready for the answers. I remained however a true believer and staunch defender of the faith. At around age 11, I decided the whole missionary drill didn't sound like it was for me, and I had decided that once the word got a foothold out in the world people would come flocking in because the light of one true church had been made known to them. That and I determined that it wasn't and absolute reqiurement to go on a mission and get to the CK. My parents were supportive of our decisions either way, so I didn't get alot of flack at home about it. I fell head over heels in love at 17 (and yes I was, and this is 51 year old guy talking). My life and eternal progression were now planned. My eternal partner had been found, and I was going to court her, stay morally clean, go to trade school and then marry her for time and all eternity. Well in a triangle way to complex to go into here, I got dumped on my head. I was devastated emotionally, physically and spiritually. I was still a true believer, but a deeply cynical one. I went to trade school and lost my moral cleanliness to a self serving mormon bitch at 19. I figured I was now obligated to marry her since we had "done the deed". Well we ended breaking up and I avoided divorce #1. I became engaged to a girl I would later find was mormon psycho. I was not really in love with her and was just in its time to get married and my true love is gone so what the hell mode. (she had recently gotten married). I did have some reservations and refused to consent to a temple wedding. She threatened me with a breakup and I told to have a nice life. She relented, and we were planning a regular wedding. About a day before the invitations were to go out, I came to my senses. I found out just exactly how psycho she was! Divorce #2 avoided. Anyway soon after this I met a girl and found out you can fall in love more than once a lifetime. She was gorgeous, sexy and NON-mormon! She ended up pregnant and we got married in a methodist church (much to the dismay of both out parents)(29 years later we are still married). We moved to a 99% mormon neighborhood and the misshies got sicced on her. I was still a believer, so she agreed to join, with the caveat that she would not ever wear garments. So we became regular church goers for years. "They" did their best to divide and conquer us about going to the temple, but she liked wearing her shorts and tank tops, (she has always been an agnostic at heart) and I was having increasing reservations about it all anyway. We eventually moved to the most non-mormon town in Utah, and slipped into blissful inactivity. Fifteen years go by and theres still a glimmer of belief in me. I was curious about what I had missed , so one evening I typed "mormon temple ceremony" into google. You all know where that lead. So ends my somewhat unconventional journey through mormonism and beyond. I will entertain questions (and maybe even answer some ;) !

[silverfox]

Welcome Dogzilla! I am pressed for time right now but I have a lot to say in response to your post. Thanks for sharing your story and I will respond this afternoon. But I did want to take a quick minute to welcome you. I hope you feel at home here. :)

[peter_mary]

I joined this board today to share my story and hear other stories. Maybe involvement here will help me my hear to feel what my mind already knows: I'm not really tainted goods. I deserve to be loved by a really great guy who isn't a liar and won't take advantage of me.

Anyway, thanks for reading all this. I'll see you on the boards!

Thanks so much for sharing this. My own daughter has felt the way you felt (although I am proud to say not due to anything her mother nor I did or said). But I have seen what the belief that you are "tainted goods" can do to a spirit, and it is cruel. My daughter was once told by a future missionary that no good RM would ever be interested in "used machinery." Can you friggin' believe it? Wait...of course you can...it's your story, too. :( Leaving the Church saved her, spiritualy, emotionally, and probably even her life.

Thanks for coming, thanks for sharing, and thanks for seeking health and happiness!

Paul

[dogzilla]

Welcome Dogzilla! I am pressed for time right now but I have a lot to say in response to your post. Thanks for sharing your story and I will respond this afternoon. But I did want to take a quick minute to welcome you. I hope you feel at home here. :)

Thanks. I do feel welcome already and I'm looking forward to making some new friends here.

[Born Free]

Thanks so much for sharing this. My own daughter has felt the way you felt (although I am proud to say not due to anything her mother nor I did or said). But I have seen what the belief that you are "tainted goods" can do to a spirit, and it is cruel. My daughter was once told by a future missionary that no good RM would ever be interested in "used machinery." Can you friggin' believe it? Wait...of course you can...it's your story, too. :( Leaving the Church saved her, spiritualy, emotionally, and probably even her life.

Thanks for coming, thanks for sharing, and thanks for seeking health and happiness!

Paul

Paul,

What a mind-boggling mindset!

Everywhere else in life we value and laude experience, so why in this area is a 'virgin' so valued?

Could it possibly be that men who deeply doubt that if any comparisons were made, that they might be found wanting? (That is not to say that women think that way, but certainly many men fear women think that way, and particularly the ones who have the most to fear.)

I am having a strong feeling of distress in response to what you said. I must look at where that is coming from! (says he thinking aloud)

I seriously wonder what would happen if Church women started comparing notes on their PH bearing spouses rating in the armorous arts. Might not be a pretty picture. Is the level of obesity among Mormon women a signal that says in effect "You are an inept lover. Please keep your unskilled hands off me"?

These fragile egos are so used to passing judgements on others, it might be nice to see some on the receiving end, some time.

Daryl

[mutleydog]

I think quite of a few of you know my history a little.....but guess I should join in the party!

I joined the church through a friend at the age of 18, but attended from the age of 17. I had a year of missionary discussions before committing myself.....so I didn't rush into things.....fools me for taking the jump in the first place!! Though my parents weren't a 100% happy, they were supportive and in the first few years saw a positive change in my outlook and general character. I did find it quite hard...no alcohol, no coffee....and having to give up any sexual relations with my boyfriend at the time! I had a few mishaps over the years with alcohol and going a bit too far with guys.....Ooops!

As I got older, I became more involved in church committments - teaching RS, primary, stake missionary etc. I went to the temple when I was about 24 after getting completely drunk after a binge on hearing a friend of mine committed suicide......I went home.....and then about half hour later my home teachers arrived...totally forgot they were coming!! I had a meeting with the bishop the following sunday and then two weeks later I went through the temple. Think it was to frighten me into keeping faithfull or something. I found the whole experience quite weird and to be honest wondered what all the fuss was about, but kinda went along with the whole 'spiritual' experience. To my detriment I went quite often after that.

I had always wondered about my sexuality - school crushes etc., but shrugged it off. When I joined the church I put all a way in a wee box.....though I did have some crushes on missionary sisters in my time!! LOL!! The crux came when I moved up to Scotland and totally fell for a friend of mine.....it was an emotional year or so.....we spent so much time together and even shared a bed......nothing happened though.....but man it was hard!! It used drive me nuts!! Thats when I realised who I was and it frightened the hell outta me!! I came to the conclusion I couldn't by any means live a double life so to speak.....my friend went on a mission.....I was gutted......but it also gave me time to sort myself out.....for 6 months I totally emersed myself in church, but on the otherhand I started reading around the subject of SSA both from a church perspective and a general perspective......the church perspective to me was a hideous, cruel prospect! Through my reading I also came across many other issues.....tithing being areal bee in my bonnet.....the issue of the church having £50 billion was a shocker - all those years I had been struggling to make ends meet....it riled me so much much. Issues about the temple, the priesthood and the role of women in the home also began to ring warning bells......all I had to do was get the courage to leave.

I started looking for women to date and found a wonderful women.....she accepted by church predicament......I knew meeting her would change the rest of my life!! It did. I still went to church for the first 6 months of our relationship, while I gained the courage to leave for good. We went a way for the weekend, so I missed church, then another week and so on. I had a meeting with the bishop and never went back. I never disclosed my relationship for fear of going through the excommunication process.....I left before they could do that! Since then I have grown to be a strong person, with a surety of who I am. I am no-longer with my first ever g/f, but have since found the person I want to spend the rest of my life with and know they feel the same......it makes me sooooo happy!

I have many regrets about the church, but I am also grateful for some aspects such as the wonderful people I met along that journey of my life - some of whom I am still in touch with and have supported me. I am also grateful for the confidence it gave me with respect to speaking in public, organising activities and many practical management skills......I am also grateful for it helped me in some way to come to terms and find who I am.

Now, I am happy individual who is living life to the full.....love my coffee, beer, vodka and many other alcoholic beverages! I love not feeling guilty! I love my lazy sundays with breakfast in bed watching tv or going shopping or the movies on a sunday afternoon. I love having some me time and more time for my family and partner, something that I never had before! I love having the freedom to speak my mind on issues I never agreed the churchs stand on.....

I do not feel guilty of a uncomfortable about making the best of my potential career wise either....I want children, but I am gonna have them in my time, in my way and bring them up to be liberal, strong characters that can make their own decisions....I want them to be happy and well-rounded individuals with a mind of their own!

[dogzilla]

Paul,

What a mind-boggling mindset!

Everywhere else in life we value and laude experience, so why in this area is a 'virgin' so valued?

Could it possibly be that men who deeply doubt that if any comparisons were made, that they might be found wanting? (That is not to say that women think that way, but certainly many men fear women think that way, and particularly the ones who have the most to fear.)

I am having a strong feeling of distress in response to what you said. I must look at where that is coming from! (says he thinking aloud)

I seriously wonder what would happen if Church women started comparing notes on their PH bearing spouses rating in the armorous arts. Might not be a pretty picture. Is the level of obesity among Mormon women a signal that says in effect "You are an inept lover. Please keep your unskilled hands off me"?

These fragile egos are so used to passing judgements on others, it might be nice to see some on the receiving end, some time.

Daryl


Several theories in response to your post.

First, virgins were revered in the old, old days because marriage was more of an exchange of property than having anything to do with love. To marry a virgin meant that the offspring were definitely yours -- no question. And that meant that your land stayed with your sons and your bloodline and some other family couldn't breed their way into your property. Dig?

So when romantic love came along (somewhere around 1600-1700 if I recall correctly), the whole "worship the virgin" thing came with it. Somehow, in the last 400 years, it became the only thing that made a woman valuable, quit possibly because up until the last 50 or so years, women really weren't allowed to own property or be leaders in their communities. (Okay, maybe 100 or so years, but as recently as 20 years ago I've heard stories of women having trouble buying a house without their husband's credit and single women having trouble finding a mortgage alone.)

Obesity. I haven't been to church in a couple decades it seems, so I haven't noticed an increase in obesity. I'm from Ohio, where people tend toward obesity anyway (it's too cold most of the time to get out and exercise!). But often, especially when sex sucks (due to lack of passion, consideration or experience... or all three) food is used as a substitute for physical pleasure. I can assure you I've had a few encounters where a nice Godiva truffle would have beat the sex hands down, no question. ;)

So it well could be a sign to "keep hands off" but I think it's more of a sign of low self esteem. I don't think anybody wants to get fat on purpose as a protective shield against bad sex. Let's look at the vicious cycle: The authorities, elders, and your husband treat you like crap or worse. After you've cranked out 3-4 kids, it gets harder and harder to find the time to eat right and exercise properly so you can't lose the baby weight as quickly. You eat to feel better. Overeating makes you fat. So you eat more to feel better. Now you're obese and feeling decidedly unsexy. So you eat to feel better... Lather, rinse, repeat.

What would help is if people decided to bring low sugar, low fat snacks to church functions instead of green jello, cookies and sugary red punch. (If I ever eat that combination again, I invite God to strike me down where I stand, nibbling. Blech.) A carrot wouldn't kill anybody, know what I mean?

[pomo]

Thank you for your kind words. I find that living well really is the best revenge. :D
<snip>
And I know (now) it's not my fault. Although I appreciate hearing it from outside sources from time to time.

I just wanted to let you know that I read your story and responses to my DW and it had us both in tears, realizing all the abuse that we are personally aware of, that has just been swept under the rug by the Mormon church, which has a sad history, of dealing with abuse like a fundamentalist Muslim society, by protecting the male perpetrators and punishing the innocent (usually female) victims.
It's a crime.
After reading your last reply my wife said, "Wow she really sounds like she has her head on straight and has managed to get through this pretty well."
But I would say if the only therapy you recieved was what you described, from a church therapist who blamed you for the abuse, then for your own sake you still need to get help to resolve those issues. You have some real issues that you need to deal with.
I am a big fan of Dr. Drew Pinsky and Adam Corolla of "Love Line" fame. If you don't know about it, you should catch an episode on a webcast or radio. It's a radio call in show that has been running for over 20 years dealing with relationship issues. It's brilliant. Issues like yours come up often and the advice is always the same, get therapy. Resolve the issues.
I know he would tell you the same thing.

I was driving my sweet innocent daughter home from piano lessons last night thinking about your story and all the abuse I know of personally in the church and REM's song, Everybody Hurts, came on the radio. And it made me think of you and my best friend who recently revealed to me that he was also raped by our scoutmaster along with most of the rest of our scout troop (some of whom are plaintifs in a very large multi-million dollar lawsuit agaist the Mormon church at the moment). When the part of the song came on, where it said "Hold on. Hold on." I looked at my sweet innocent daughter, with tears running down my cheeks, she made me smile through my tears, asking if she could play with the buttons on my console, and I was just so gratefull that we had maneged to escape the backwards culture that protects penis holding perpetrators and punishes the innocent, like you and far too many others.

REM's Everybody Hurts Lyrics:

When the day is long and the night, the night is yours alone,
When you're sure you've had enough of this life, well hang on
Don't let yourself go, 'cause everybody cries and everybody hurts sometimes

Sometimes everything is wrong. Now it's time to sing along
When your day is night alone, (hold on, hold on)
If you feel like letting go, (hold on)
When you think you've had too much of this life, well hang on

'Cause everybody hurts. Take comfort in your friends
Everybody hurts. Don't throw your hand. Oh, no. Don't throw your hand
If you feel like you're alone, no, no, no, you are not alone

If you're on your own in this life, the days and nights are long,
When you think you've had too much of this life to hang on

Well, everybody hurts sometimes,
Everybody cries. And everybody hurts sometimes
And everybody hurts sometimes. So, hold on, hold on
Hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on
Everybody hurts. You are not alone
_____________________________________________

You are not alone.

[dogzilla]

Aw. That was reallly nice.

I'm actually not a big fan of Dr. Drew -- I think he's a little condescending at times (but not quite as annoying as Dr. Phil.) I will assure you, I have gotten additional therapy since the church "counselor" on several occasions. One thing that helped tremendously was minoring in Psych in college. The best thing has been to talk about the whole thing with others who have gone through similar experiences. And to dredge it up again with my dad, who has been great about it. I have never ignored this and allowed it to fester deep inside my soul. That said, I still have some trust issues, but I think those will take a very special man to help me resolve. (Know anybody? ;) )

But like I said previously, living well is the best revenge. I was determined not to allow what has happened to me as a kid, and not to allow choices other people made, to drive my choices as an adult. I can let those old experiences drag me down or I can let go and create solid, healthy relationships and make rational, sane choices as an adult. I refused to carry with me resentment and hard feelings about anything that happened before I turned 18.

And I really HATE that REM song, though I love REM in general and I greatly appreciate the sentiment you were trying to share with me. Thank you for all your kind words. Please try not to shed any more tears for me: I am strong and I am a survivor. It's going to take a lot more than a little abuse to drag me down.

"Just what makes that little old ant
Think he can move a rubber tree plant
Everyone knows an ant can't
Move a rubbertree plant.
But he's got (everyone -- sing it with me now)

H-I-I-I-G-H HOPES...

He's got..."

[jmkm]

Dogzilla,
Your blunt honesty is refreshing.

[dogzilla]

Dogzilla,
Your blunt honesty is refreshing.

Thanks. Now I'm sitting at my desk, singing "Don't cry for me, Argentina."

:D

Not Very Subtle,
Diane

[pomo]

Aw. That was reallly nice.
Please try not to shed any more tears for me: I am strong and I am a survivor. It's going to take a lot more than a little abuse to drag me down."

It wasn't necessarily for you, what really got to me yesterday was reading to my wife about the abuse my best friend was subjected to, along with many of my other childhood friends, and feeling gratefull for having detangled ourselves from the mind controlling culture and organization of the church that is responsible, in large part, for the abuse of so many of my good friends who I grew up with.
It just gives me a great deal of hope to know that I am no longer a part of that culture and my beautiful daughter will not be victimized because of our ignorance and loyalty to a corrupt power structure.

[silverfox]

Hey! You apostates! Cut out the mushy caring stuff. Don't you KNOW you are supposed to be cold hearted evil mean selfish people without "the true church".

Heeeellllllloooooooooo!

Just kidding. It's nice to see so much concern for others and having a place to share our stories and offer and gain support. We can learn from each other's experiences and I am really enjoying getting to know everyone.

[pomo]

[QUOTE=silverfox]Hey! You apostates! Cut out the mushy caring stuff. Don't you KNOW you are supposed to be cold hearted evil mean selfish people without "the true church".
QUOTE]

Sorry, I should have known.
I don't want to bore you with the details, but this kind of crap just breaks my heart. I saw it all the time in the church, priesthood leaders looking the other way when serious abuse was taking place, parents more interested in maintaining the status quo instead of protecting their innocent children, kids not talking about abuse when it was happening to them, out of fear of discipline. It pisses me off!
If anyone ever rapes my daughter they'll be in for far more than an ass whooping! After I castrate the SOB, and string him up by what's left of his nut sack and use him for a punching bag, he'll spend the rest of his natural life in prison having his sphincter enlarged.
I just don't get parents who don't turn to the proper authorities instead of a patriarchal church that is bound to protect the perpetrators instead of the innocent.
My best friend is so brainwashed by the Morg that he is pissed off at a mutual friend of ours for filing a lawsuit against the church, even though he was victimized the same way as our mutual friend.
It blows my mind!
That was the point at which I told him how I really felt about the abusive church.
He was shocked.
The good news is that he told me that he respected me enough to take what I had to say seriously and he was going to investigate it and if he found out he had his head up his ass he was sure as hell going to pull it out, come what may.

[silverfox]

[QUOTE=silverfox]Hey! You apostates! Cut out the mushy caring stuff. Don't you KNOW you are supposed to be cold hearted evil mean selfish people without "the true church".
QUOTE]

Sorry, I should have known.
I don't want to bore you with the details, but this kind of crap just breaks my heart. I saw it all the time in the church, priesthood leaders looking the other way when serious abuse was taking place, parents more interested in maintaining the status quo instead of protecting their innocent children, kids not talking about abuse when it was happening to them, out of fear of discipline. It pisses me off!


Hey, you know I was just kidding right? Yeah quite a few members on this board have witnessed this unforgiving behavior with church leaders and many have been victims. See the thread about "Abuse in the Church" if you haven't checked it out already. Amazing. The more people I talk to the more common I've learned the issue really is. Disgusting. And these are just cases we KNOW about.

[firelight]

Just wanted to check in and let you know I'm here. I'm excited about this board, which I was clued into by LSands, after sharing our dismay at the tone the RFM board has taken and the fact that many of the former posters who seemed to be a little more objective had left. Funny that I find some of them here.

I have been quite involved with the Utah County Exmos for the past several years but have recently made some huge changes in my life which involved finally escaping Utah and Utah Valley and relocating to Memphis, Tennessee. I sure miss you guys--you know that. I feel like I might have made it to the exit of the "recovery from Mormonism" maze with this move and now just want to be able to objectively look at my old life and learn from it while feeling a connection to that community that saved my sanity and helped guide me through the maze.

Thanks for all your work, Jeff. The site looks so great. Sure hope I can find some great exmos in this part of the Southeast.

Merilynn

[pomo]

Hey, you know I was just kidding right? Yeah quite a few members on this board have witnessed this unforgiving behavior with church leaders and many have been victims. See the thread about "Abuse in the Church" if you haven't checked it out already. Amazing. The more people I talk to the more common I've learned the issue really is. Disgusting. And these are just cases we KNOW about.

Yeah I know you were just kidding, but behind every joke is a bit of truth.
I was probably overly sentimental about the whole thing. I shouldn't get so wrapped up in other people's problems. I would make a horrible psychiatrist, since I would end up empathizing with everyone and I would need therapy after seeing my first few patients.
My spirit of discernment must have been asleep.
Sorry for the sentimentality, but it does feel good sometimes, to allow yourself to feel a broad range of emotions.
That's why I love the blues, you actually feel something.
I'm really not like that typically, I am much more rational and logical, but the gravity of all the denial of abuse I am personally aware of in the church just hit me. Fortunately I got my family out of the abusive church before I had to take someones head off for touching one of my kids.

I'll go check on the abuse thread. I hadn't notice it. Thanks.

These bastards need to be held accountable in order for anything to change.

[silverfox]

Yeah I know you were just kidding, but behind every joke is a bit of truth.
I was probably overly sentimental about the whole thing. I shouldn't get so wrapped up in other people's problems. I would make a horrible psychiatrist, since I would end up empathizing with everyone and I would need therapy after seeing my first few patients.
My spirit of discernment must have been asleep.
Sorry for the sentimentality, but it does feel good sometimes, to allow yourself to feel a broad range of emotions.
That's why I love the blues, you actually feel something.
I'm really not like that typically, I am much more rational and logical, but the gravity of all the denial of abuse I am personally aware of in the church just hit me. Fortunately I got my family out of the abusive church before I had to take someones head off for touching one of my kids.

I'll go check on the abuse thread. I hadn't notice it. Thanks.

These bastards need to be held accountable in order for anything to change.

Don't you be apoplogizing for being sentimental. It's a nice change. If the topic of abuse ever came up with members most of the time they acted interested just to get the juicy details (isn't that just sick???) and then went on to pretend it didn't happen or went on to blame the victim. I know there are exceptions but I've never witnessed them.

I hope victims feel they can come to this board and speak out and be heard and FINALLY get the validation and sympathy they need and DESERVE.

Now, where IS that silly string. I'm gonna chase you with it, Pomo!!!! :D

[dogzilla]

Well, I can certainly speak for myself. It's probably been nearly ten years since I've mentioned publicly what has happened to me. I'm a member of another message board (Gasp! The horror. I'm cheating on them -- not you all! LOL) where there seems to be a lot of active LDS. Every now and then someone starts a mormon-bashing thread (starts as an innocent nonmember question and gets ugly quick-like) and all the TBMs pile on and it gets pretty nasty. Although I've been on that board about five years and have some friends there, I have never felt comfortable explaining why I left the Church and what some of my issues with it are. So the support and sympathy here has been very surprising and is greatly appreciated. Thank you all so much for your virtual hugs.

That said, please bear with me while I make a brief, and only slightly satirical political comment in response to Silverfox poking us about being such NICE and loving apostates. :D I'm sorry: my bleeding heart leaks blue. I'm so liberal, I'm darn near communist. That doesn't make me completely amoral. In fact, if any of you (speaking figuratively - not literally to anyone here) knee-jerk reactionary Christian Fundie right-wingers actually believe that The Shrub is really a Christian, you can borrow my pry bar to pull your head out of your ass. He's a Yale-educated Yankee from Kennebunkport, Maine. He ain't no Texan, he's not Southern (not even a little) and that podunk good ole boy dumbass redneck act is an ACT, people. That's how he got all those votes in middle America. The great unwashed, unread masses didn't bother to do any homework and they just believed his propaganda machine, a significant part of which is that yee-haw cowboy yokel image The Shrub has going on.

That said, The Shrub does not have a majority vote. He does not have a mandate from MOST of this country. See, there's about 300 million people in this country. Less than half are registered to vote. That's about 150 million. The Shrub got about, what, 50 million votes? Let's say 60 million to round up. That's still only 1/5 of the population, which is about 20%. The other 20% of us who voted for the other guy (or who broke loose from the church): We have morals, we love our families, we have strong values, we pray, we give, and we don't believe in needlessly murdering brown people or people who don't worship just like us. (Isn't religious persecution what got us started on this side of the pond in the first place?) Just because we don't necessarily believe that protecting the environment is a waste of time because the apocalypse is coming next week, doesn't mean that we're all out there running around nekkid, shooting up drugs in the streets and smashing in the soft spots on little babies' heads. Even Wiccans believe, "And first, do ye no harm."

::stepping off soap box::

That is all. Carry on. My apologies for the political commentary.

[pomo]

Well, I can certainly speak for myself. It's probably been nearly ten years since I've mentioned publicly what has happened to me. I'm a member of another message board (Gasp! The horror. I'm cheating on them -- not you all! LOL) where there seems to be a lot of active LDS. Every now and then someone starts a mormon-bashing thread (starts as an innocent nonmember question and gets ugly quick-like) and all the TBMs pile on and it gets pretty nasty. Although I've been on that board about five years and have some friends there, I have never felt comfortable explaining why I left the Church and what some of my issues with it are.

Yeah, it's amazing how quickly Mormons turn from lovable, fun loving, decent human beings when they think you might be one of them, into rabid, venom spitting jerks when they realize you are honest with them and tell them why you don't buy the same BS they are fully vested in.
I have a TBM sister who is the same way about homeschooling. She's written books on it, runs websites devoted to the topic, is in every homeschooling club you can imagine and thinks public education is a complete waste of time and money. My mother is a teacher in public schools and has seen the negative effects of homeschooled kids entering back into public school environment. She thinks homeschooling does more harm than good and from what I've seen with the way my sister teaches her kids, she's right.
Theory is one thing, practice and reality are another.
But don't bring that up to her or she will end up hating you for it and getting totally emotional and defensive.
Meanwhile her child who graduated from her homeschooling program is living in a storage unit and has been in and out of jail for loitering, after having gotten kicked out of the military for insubordination and is totally unprepared to deal with life as an adult in the real world.
We've all learned that you really don't want to bring up religion, education, social issues or politics with her. They tend to be very emotionally charged issues.
It's great that like minded people can come together on boards like these and discuss emotionally charged issues that in real life end up blowing up in our faces and damaging real life relationships.
I tend to agree with you about "George Dubya the Shrub" but I don't know what board policies are regarding discussing politics, so I'll reserve my comments.
I just see the world, naievely led by the US, being torn apart by religion. When the president of the United States of America allows a Christian minister to deliver a prayer at his inaguration and to end it in the name of Jesus Christ, the rest of the world, which is mostly non-christian sees that as an aggressive, arrogant, ignorant, insensitive, expression of ugly americanism. Basically he is saying, "screw you" to everyone who is not christian and taking one step backwards in the evolutionary progress towards a civilized, peaceful world based on reason and mutual respect of differing cultures, religions and people.
I fear for my teenage son's future.
I see it coming.
They will be drafted to go fight another quagmire holy war in Iran, Iraq or Afganistan, I am powerless to prevent.

[bigeddy]

I was horrified one night while driving home and listening to Mike Reagan. He was going on and on about "The Brotherhood", a group of Islamic believers operating in the US with the stated intention of converting all of America to Islam. At one point he said "And they're not even using violence!" He stated that they were holding prayer meetings in their efforts to convert Americans to Islam. He stated "This has to be stopped." I wondered if he had ever heard of religious freedom, or if he was aware that Mormonism's stated intention was to convert the entire world to Momomomoism. I was shocked that he would actually say what he did. The ethnocentrism of it all was so blatant, so repugnant that I wanted to barf. That such could be said by such a spokesperson of the republicans and noone answered it with the truth shocked the hell out of me. This is part of the stuff that got me writing about he polarized populace. I see the effects of 9/11 as having promoted a regression among the American people, a regression that the shrub and his ilk are riding tall in the saddle. However, like many regressions that are spun around and spurned when people wise up, maybe we will see the cinch break and the saddle fall with its rider. Don't know, we'll see.

Ed

[pomo]

I was horrified.......<snip> However, like many regressions that are spun around and spurned when people wise up, maybe we will see the cinch break and the saddle fall with its rider. Don't know, we'll see.

Ed


Hopefully before our sons or daughters are drafted into an unrighteous holy war.
The shrub may single handedly take our country from the worlds only super power to a 3rd or 4th most powerful economy in the world.

[chicagogirl]

[FONT=Palatino Linotype][COLOR=Blue][SIZE=3]
Hello all Post Mormons,
My name is Chicagogirl, and I've only been a member for slightly more than a yr. For one yr., I investigated / explored the Church because I had an open mind and I was curious. Separating from my LDS friends, in the Chgo area, is very difficult. I'm gradually gaining more friends in a Baptist Church / Willow Creek. The Lord is giving me the strength to move forward. My family is Evangelical, so I'm surrounding myself w/ Evangelical people. This website has been a tremendous educational help to me. I don't regret learning the LDS culture / people. I'm more informed and understanding toward Mormons. I'm reluctant to communicate on these types of websites, but I'll be brave and try it :rolleyes:

Chicagogirl

[peter_mary]

Hello all Post Mormons,
My name is Chicagogirl, and I've only been a member for slightly more than a yr. I'm reluctant to communicate on these types of websites, but I'll be brave and try it :rolleyes:

Chicagogirl

Welcome, and by all means, be brave! Just switch off that web-cam...yup, that one right on top of the old computer screen...yeah, just reach up there and flip that little switch on the back...there you go! Now you have nothing to be embarassed about, because in no time, we'll have forgotten what you look like, and you can post without any fear at all! Please do! :D

Paul

[gracie]

Hi all,
I'm Gracie, I'm new to the board, new to the internet, and new to talking about the mass of doubts whirling in my head. I am BIC, (former) TBM, 30 something homemaker, married to a BIC, RM, now high priest TBM (although that is changing slowly). We have 3 children.
For most of my adult life I have dealt with depression in varying degrees; and 2 years ago decided that it was the church "culture" that was getting me down! So I began a "quest" for God's "truth"; the basics, the core of the gospel, the eternal, unchanging doctrine; which would, of course, free me from the fetters of my cultural beliefs and bring me peace in my life.
HA!!!
I studied the New Testament, and then cross referenced doctrine with the other "scriptures" and then, because I was so confused, checked out what the modern prophets had to say. By this time my head was spinning, so I took a break. In the meantime, a friend of my husband's from work started asking about our church. They were looking for a church to attend for their family. I decided to research the church as I would as an investigator, using of course the public library and the internet. My world fell apart. I have been an earnest, devoted member my whole life, in spite of many 'testimony-testing' experiences (which I won't go into right now). Then I found out everything I knew was true actually wasn't....(and the truth shall set you free).
I like the tone of this board, and having nobody to talk to about this (virtually all family and friends are TBM), hope I can join this great cyber family- I have much to discuss!!
Gracie

[silverfox]

Hi all,
I'm Gracie, I'm new to the board, new to the internet, and new to talking about the mass of doubts whirling in my head. I am BIC, (former) TBM, 30 something homemaker, married to a BIC, RM, now high priest TBM (although that is changing slowly). We have 3 children.
For most of my adult life I have dealt with depression in varying degrees; and 2 years ago decided that it was the church "culture" that was getting me down! So I began a "quest" for God's "truth"; the basics, the core of the gospel, the eternal, unchanging doctrine; which would, of course, free me from the fetters of my cultural beliefs and bring me peace in my life.
HA!!!
I studied the New Testament, and then cross referenced doctrine with the other "scriptures" and then, because I was so confused, checked out what the modern prophets had to say. By this time my head was spinning, so I took a break. In the meantime, a friend of my husband's from work started asking about our church. They were looking for a church to attend for their family. I decided to research the church as I would as an investigator, using of course the public library and the internet. My world fell apart. I have been an earnest, devoted member my whole life, in spite of many 'testimony-testing' experiences (which I won't go into right now). Then I found out everything I knew was true actually wasn't....(and the truth shall set you free).
I like the tone of this board, and having nobody to talk to about this (virtually all family and friends are TBM), hope I can join this great cyber family- I have much to discuss!!
Gracie

Welcome, Gracie! I look forward to getting to know you better. I hope find what you are looking for here. :)

[square_peg]

I like the tone of this board, and having nobody to talk to about this (virtually all family and friends are TBM), hope I can join this great cyber family- I have much to discuss!!
Gracie

Gracie,
Glad you are here! Being a fellow Thirty-Something with a Spinning Head, I can relate to you in many ways!

Finding this website has been so helpful for me...I hope that you find it to be a good place to discuss things too! :)

Noelle

[free thinker]

Hi all,
I'm Gracie, I'm new to the board, new to the internet, and new to talking about the mass of doubts whirling in my head. I am BIC, (former) TBM, 30 something homemaker, married to a BIC, RM, now high priest TBM (although that is changing slowly). We have 3 children.
For most of my adult life I have dealt with depression in varying degrees; and 2 years ago decided that it was the church "culture" that was getting me down! So I began a "quest" for God's "truth"; the basics, the core of the gospel, the eternal, unchanging doctrine; which would, of course, free me from the fetters of my cultural beliefs and bring me peace in my life.
HA!!!
I studied the New Testament, and then cross referenced doctrine with the other "scriptures" and then, because I was so confused, checked out what the modern prophets had to say. By this time my head was spinning, so I took a break. In the meantime, a friend of my husband's from work started asking about our church. They were looking for a church to attend for their family. I decided to research the church as I would as an investigator, using of course the public library and the internet. My world fell apart. I have been an earnest, devoted member my whole life, in spite of many 'testimony-testing' experiences (which I won't go into right now). Then I found out everything I knew was true actually wasn't....(and the truth shall set you free).
I like the tone of this board, and having nobody to talk to about this (virtually all family and friends are TBM), hope I can join this great cyber family- I have much to discuss!!
Gracie

Isn't it interesting that people who investigate the church objectively, usually come to a different conclusion than those taught by the missionaries?

Without the nuance etc., it is a different story!!

Greetings from a post-mo who is struggling in my first year out! I hope you feel your life get better as I have!!

Free Thinker

[gracie]

Thank you for the kind words. I have lurked for a while and read most of the back postings I think. While I have been studying and investigating for almost two years, it has only been two or three months since I have had any sort of resolution. I have known for much longer that the church is extrememely unhealthy for me, but I had to discover that it is just another church in order to give myself permission to distance myself from it. I am very peaceful about my decision (that was the easy part), but now I have to "come out" to close family members to some degree. My sister is going to be sealed to her husband and his children soon so that will be the first big hurdle; getting out of attending the temple. My sister considers me her mom in a way, I am 8 years older and our mother has alot of emotional/psychological issues. I am hopeful that this forum can offer some support and lots of voices of reason!
Gracie

[mutleydog]

Gracie,

Welcome! I am also a new member - probably been around about a week now! I left the church about 3 years ago, but still struggle with some aspects of my past mormon life. I have found the board very helpful and have found much encouragement here. I am very grateful that I found it........it truly helps put many things/issues into perspective.

I hope you enjoy the company that you find here and take the support you need at this time... ;)

[Free-soil]

Greetings from Tennessee! I have been longing, for sometime now, for a group of people who understand my former life and the ways in which that life effects me now. Who would have thought after a quick google search I would have ended up here :) . I have been browsing through your discussions for two hours now and found great comfort from reading your stories.

At any rate, at little about me. I am a college student in Tennessee. It seems as if I am a bit younger than most on the site, but you all seemed so accepting, I decided to participated. I joined the church in 1999, after being fellowshiped by a close highschool friend (She is currently on a mission in Brazil). Once I took the plunge, I didn't look back. I paid little attention to the warnings of my closest friends, and even less to the desperate cries of my family. I had a new life and I loved it.

However about nine months ago, this new life of my mine began losing its novelty. I began to address my concerns that had never been settled and that led me to where I am now. I have since left the church, however, many do not know. The individuals in my singles ward and in the immediate areas are well aware. This, as I'm sure you may know, caused a lot of alienation and many lost friends.There are still several friends (my closests ones might I add) that think I am living the not so happy life of full activity.

There are a lot more details but this is the quick and dirty. My family is rejoicing because I made the break, unmarried and "unmissioned". I look forward to the discussions to come. You all seem very friendly, and I look forward to that- friendship without conditions.

[silverfox]

Greetings from Tennessee! I have been longing, for sometime now, for a group of people who understand my former life and the ways in which that life effects me now. Who would have thought after a quick google search I would have ended up here :) . I have been browsing through your discussions for two hours now and found great comfort from reading your stories.

At any rate, at little about me. I am a college student in Tennessee. It seems as if I am a bit younger than most on the site, but you all seemed so accepting, I decided to participated. I joined the church in 1999, after being fellowshiped by a close highschool friend (She is currently on a mission in Brazil). Once I took the plunge, I didn't look back. I paid little attention to the warnings of my closest friends, and even less to the desperate cries of my family. I had a new life and I loved it.

However about nine months ago, this new life of my mine began losing its novelty. I began to address my concerns that had never been settled and that led me to where I am now. I have since left the church, however, many do not know. The individuals in my singles ward and in the immediate areas are well aware. This, as I'm sure you may know, caused a lot of alienation and many lost friends.There are still several friends (my closests ones might I add) that think I am living the not so happy life of full activity.

There are a lot more details but this is the quick and dirty. My family is rejoicing because I made the break, unmarried and "unmissioned". I look forward to the discussions to come. You all seem very friendly, and I look forward to that- friendship without conditions.

Hey, FS! Welcome aboard! I look forward to getting to know you. I am thrilled to find that yet another YOUNG soul has escaped the bonds of MO'ISM!!!! Yes!! Yes!! Yes!! Unmarried and Unmissioned even....wooooohooooo.

Hey don't we have some single people around here????? Yooohooo where are you...speak up...we've got fresh meat here!!!! JUST KIDDING!!!!!! It is getting late...I couldn't help myself.

I hope you find the support you need here. Don't be shy. :)

[Free-soil]

[QUOTE=silverfox]
Hey don't we have some single people around here????? Yooohooo where are you...speak up...we've got fresh meat here!!!! JUST KIDDING!!!!!! It is getting late...I couldn't help myself.

QUOTE]

Thanks so much for your enthusiam! It sounded for a minute like Sacrament Meeting in a singles ward :D . I

[silverfox]

[QUOTE=silverfox]
Hey don't we have some single people around here????? Yooohooo where are you...speak up...we've got fresh meat here!!!! JUST KIDDING!!!!!! It is getting late...I couldn't help myself.

QUOTE]

Thanks so much for your enthusiam! It sounded for a minute like Sacrament Meeting in a singles ward :D . I

Ewwwww the single's wards, the singles dances......ewwwwwwwww. Are they as bad there as they are here in Utard?????? They must be!

[free thinker]

Greetings from Tennessee! I have been longing, for sometime now, for a group of people who understand my former life and the ways in which that life effects me now. Who would have thought after a quick google search I would have ended up here :) . I have been browsing through your discussions for two hours now and found great comfort from reading your stories.

At any rate, at little about me. I am a college student in Tennessee. It seems as if I am a bit younger than most on the site, but you all seemed so accepting, I decided to participated. I joined the church in 1999, after being fellowshiped by a close highschool friend (She is currently on a mission in Brazil). Once I took the plunge, I didn't look back. I paid little attention to the warnings of my closest friends, and even less to the desperate cries of my family. I had a new life and I loved it.

However about nine months ago, this new life of my mine began losing its novelty. I began to address my concerns that had never been settled and that led me to where I am now. I have since left the church, however, many do not know. The individuals in my singles ward and in the immediate areas are well aware. This, as I'm sure you may know, caused a lot of alienation and many lost friends.There are still several friends (my closests ones might I add) that think I am living the not so happy life of full activity.

There are a lot more details but this is the quick and dirty. My family is rejoicing because I made the break, unmarried and "unmissioned". I look forward to the discussions to come. You all seem very friendly, and I look forward to that- friendship without conditions.


I enjoyed reading your post. Let me just say unequivocally, you are going to be glad you made the break. The church would have taken a very full measure of your life, and left you holding an empty bag! Congrats on your internal fortitude to make the break after recognizing the deliterious effects of mormonism. I think it is telling that those who love you most, your family, are happy with your break. :)

Free Thinker

[Free-soil]

I enjoyed reading your post. Let me just say unequivocally, you are going to be glad you made the break. The church would have taken a very full measure of your life, and left you holding an empty bag! Congrats on your internal fortitude to make the break after recognizing the deliterious effects of mormonism. I think it is telling that those who love you most, your family, are happy with your break. :)

Free Thinker

I think you're right about my family. My love for them has grown so much during this trying time. I have come to understand so much the love a parent has for a child. I am one lucky girl to have the parents I do, they are so suportive. Thanks for you kind words, Free THinker. It is nice to know others have felt/do feel the same way I do, when all I see are fully active members.

[noodle]

Hey ya'll,

Finally sat down long enough to post a howdy. I've enjoyed reading for awhile. I'm an "inactive" (I always loved that word) convert whose oldest son is recently back from a mission in Russia. :eek: He's a great kid, and tolerates his parents. We tolerate him as well ;) I have three kids...the middle child quit going to church at about age 11 because her dad didn't go, so why should she??? I followed suit soon thereafter. We never had the youngest baptized and he's 14. That's caused quite a stir with the mother-in-law. Anyway, I'm looking forward to getting to know everyone.

mamajama

[peter_mary]

I'm an "inactive" (I always loved that word) convert whose oldest son is recently back from a mission in Russia. :eek: He's a great kid, and tolerates his parents. We tolerate him as well ;)

mamajama

I've heard some pretty rough stuff about missions to Russia...getting beat up by the police, that kind of thing. How'd it go for your son?

And welcome to the forum! Glad you chimed in...

Paul

[noodle]

I've heard some pretty rough stuff about missions to Russia...getting beat up by the police, that kind of thing. How'd it go for your son?

And welcome to the forum! Glad you chimed in...

Paul

He was in Siberia, which was even more interesting. We traveled there to pick him up, and it was way cool to see Siberia as well as Moscow and St. Petersurg. Luckily, he never had trouble with the police. They had strict rules to follow visa-wise, which they did. We had even stricter rules to follow as tourists, like having to "check in" every 3 days to get our visa stamped. Of course there was always a fee attached. Anyway, he and one of his companions had one incident where they were basically forced to find a new apartment because of harassment from a neighbor (the "yankee go home" sort of thing), and he was pick-pocketed on a crowded bus...luckily no further damage. He's actually just gone back to St. Pete to do a semester abroad. Glad he's gone back without the religious stuff.

[mick]

Is there a way to keep this thread on top for all new members to see? There are lots of members...I'd like to hear about you. So if you'd like please respond and tell us a little about yourselves....how long you were/have been a member, what you'd like to gain from this board, etc, etc. Don't be shy! It's all of you that make up this community and I am anxious to do some bonding. (uh oh, now I've scared them away) :) Okay, I won't try to bond too much......tag, you're it!

I was just wondering if there was anyone else out there struggling with how to have the discussion with their kids about their loss of faith. I have two adult "children" who both gave up mormonism when they moved out, but I still have two at home - my 16-year-old son used to go to seminary but hated church (we were not regular attenders - my husband is not a member)(gasp) and my 11-year-old son is thrilled that now we don't go at all. But he did ask me the other day if we were mormon and I didn't know quite what to say. How much information do you give an 11-year-old who doesn't have much of the basic knowledge to begin with (I still feel a little guilty about not "raising him right") Hard to believe - but true. Any advice??

[silverfox]

I was just wondering if there was anyone else out there struggling with how to have the discussion with their kids about their loss of faith. I have two adult "children" who both gave up mormonism when they moved out, but I still have two at home - my 16-year-old son used to go to seminary but hated church (we were not regular attenders - my husband is not a member)(gasp) and my 11-year-old son is thrilled that now we don't go at all. But he did ask me the other day if we were mormon and I didn't know quite what to say. How much information do you give an 11-year-old who doesn't have much of the basic knowledge to begin with (I still feel a little guilty about not "raising him right") Hard to believe - but true. Any advice??

We have a lot in common. I have three adult children, only one of them is TBM. I have two girls at home, age 10 and age 17. The 17 yo stopped attending seminary this year. She got a lot of flack from her teacher and friends. Her teacher even called our home at night, asked for her (didn't ask to talk to us) and then asked why she didn't sign up for seminary. She didn't know what to say. So she just said her mom would rather she didn't. (although the choice was hers) Boy you should have hard the seminary teacher! Oh, you poor thing. I feel so bad you are struggling with these challenges at home. (sheesh like she was abused or something - good GAWD!!!!!) Trying to make her feel like her home life was inadequate because mommy preferred she didn't go to seminary where she couldn't monitor what was being taught. grrrrrr I should add I suggested she stop going to primary when she was telling what her teacher was saying...about how the females should be mommies, etc, etc. They get the same garbage there as they do on Sundays. Anyway, where was I going with this???

It was "natural" the way my loss of faith came about. Actually, my family watched it. I was reading Blood of the Prophet and Banner Under Heaven and each time I was shocked by something I would read it out loud..."listen to this. blah blah blah. I don't believe it. I'm gonna research this. It can't be true." So they learned bits and pieces along with me. My 10 yo wanted to be baptized when she turned 8 but we weren't attending that regularly. But she only wnated to be baptized because everyone made a big deal about it whenever she said she was 8 years old. "Oh, when did you get baptized", etc, etc. Once she got through the 8th year no one cares. They just assume she's been baptized.

Anyway, I didn't sit my kids down and say, I no longer believe. We were attending church on and off while I was learning all this stuff. When the books I was reading would refer to a scripture my 17 (then 15-16) would run and look them up to make sure the book was right. I did not plan it this way. I didn't plan on "believing" these books really. I thought I'd be able to "disprove" them. But I couldn't and neither could my bish or stake prez or any other leader that I talked to.

My 17 yo isn't sure about the church either way. Living in Utard she has Mo friends and nonmember friends, etc, etc. She has always been good to have a good mix of friends. There is a lot of social pressure living here and that puts kids in an awkward situation sometimes. She pretty much has decided there are issues with the church but she doesn't care so much about it at this point in her life.

My 10 yo will get excited about an activity now and then if she is invited to it. She will come home and say kids are telling her she needs to be in Primary. Their parents tell her that as well. But she really never liked Primary at all. Doesn't really want to go. So I've coached her as to what to say when she is put on the spot like that. She tells them...."It's okay that I'm not in Primary. My mom and dad are teaching me everything I need to know." End of story. What gets me is the nerve of some people even asking her WHAT we teach her. She tells them everything she needs to know to get through life and be as happy as she can be. (I just love that kid!)

Your 11 yo probably sees the church as more of a "social" thing than anything else since it appears the doctrine isn't too engrained in him. (good job!) My 10 yo is the same way. It wasn't instilled in her like it was in my other kids.

But, here is my famous disclaimer. What the hell do I know? This has just been where my experiences have led to. For kids a lot of times it's all about pressure.

[noodle]

Silverfox,

You are a darling. I am not sure where you sourced the story re nekkidness, but in clearly took a firm hold in your memory.

I live in Queensland, the same state as the Great Barrier Reef. It was about 33 celsius yesterday, so we were in and out of the pool about 4 times. Fortunately, our back yard is very private, so we do not rush from the pool, via a towel to TGs!! :) That said, I do not answer the door in the nik.

Kangaroos are common throughout Australia, although they do not hop down city streets, as some seem to expect. Probably like deer, in many rural areas, hitting them with a car is common, and potentially dangerous. They are cute (unless they are bucks (males), who in some varieties can stand up well over 6ft tall, and get dangerous, particularly when it is mating season). The females with their young that nip in and out of the pouch can be most endearing and quite safe.

I suspect the story re naked door-answeres probably came from missionaries who found a house that thought they might have a laugh at the missionaries expense. There was a case (as in legal) in the papers down here a few years back of a household who invited the missionaries and gave them hash biscuits (cookies to you). Laughed my tuch off!

Daryl


Daryl, I have a Sis in Law who lives in Brisbane. I can't wait to come visit. She was just here for a baby blessing, and was anxious to leave the snow of northern Utah. She is from Utah, but met and married an Aussie, and moved there. She's been married to two non-members, but goes to church pretty often. I think that she and hubby sun-bathe "nekkid" by their pool in their private backyard. Anyway, enjoy your summer while we're freezing our arses!

[dragonreborn]

This is just a little bit about me. I am from a 3 generation mormon family. I am the oldest of eight children. I have grown up mormon all my life. I always did what I was told. During seminary, I got all my scriptures memorized and always led in all the contests. At age 19, I went on a mission to Fresno,Ca. I got back and went to Ricks College. I found a non-member girl and to be right. I convinced her to be baptized so we could get married in the temple. I had one son and we all got sealed. Shortly thereafter, I became inactive, as some member gossiped about my wife behind her back. I went back without my wife a couple of months ago. I saw that I was now different from the other mormons. I did not fit in as I used to. I went for two weeks and then left again. I started to question my beliefs. I looked inside myself and saw that I had never gotten the "burning in your bosum" that tells you the church is true. I did all that stuff because it was required of me. I did not enjoy it, and remember several times on my mission wanting to come home. I am now not a member of any faith. My wife and I are going through the process of removing our names from the record. The rest of my family is very active, and they have made it their personal mission to save me from "sin". My child is now 9 and was not baptised in the church. If I have my way he never will be. I want him to think for himself and not be herded around like I was.

[Free-soil]

This is just a little bit about me. I am from a 3 generation mormon family. I am the oldest of eight children. I have grown up mormon all my life. I always did what I was told. During seminary, I got all my scriptures memorized and always led in all the contests. At age 19, I went on a mission to Fresno,Ca. I got back and went to Ricks College. I found a non-member girl and to be right. I convinced her to be baptized so we could get married in the temple. I had one son and we all got sealed. Shortly thereafter, I became inactive, as some member gossiped about my wife behind her back. I went back without my wife a couple of months ago. I saw that I was now different from the other mormons. I did not fit in as I used to. I went for two weeks and then left again. I started to question my beliefs. I looked inside myself and saw that I had never gotten the "burning in your bosum" that tells you the church is true. I did all that stuff because it was required of me. I did not enjoy it, and remember several times on my mission wanting to come home. I am now not a member of any faith. My wife and I are going through the process of removing our names from the record. The rest of my family is very active, and they have made it their personal mission to save me from "sin". My child is now 9 and was not baptised in the church. If I have my way he never will be. I want him to think for himself and not be herded around like I was.

Dragon,

Welcome! I think you have come to a place where people understand exactly what you are dealing with. I hope you find the support and friendship you need and deserve here. Having been free from the church for a year, I can say that it is wonderful! I am happy-not pretend happy-but really happy, for the first time in a long while! :D I hope you and your family will find that happiness as well!

Best of luck to you!
Free-soil

[twoody]

I happened upon this website this evening, and thought it would be a good idea to join.

A little on me: I left the church a few years ago for reasons which are not important, but that focused on my disagreement with their choice of dogma, and political action based on that dogma. I am married to a wonderful non-mormon woman that I love dearly.

I still practice the judeo-christian ethic, and the unwritten boy scout mantra of leaving it better than I found it.

There are many active mormons in my life that I love dearly. But there are few that I actually agree with when it comes to anything of a mormon specific religious nature.

At this point in my life, and after quite a bit of therapy, I can honestly say I have recovered from being a mormon. Now, I'm hoping to help others make their way through the emotional roller coaster one experiences when they choose to leave mormonism.

That being said, cheers!

[silverfox]

I happened upon this website this evening, and thought it would be a good idea to join.

A little on me: I left the church a few years ago for reasons which are not important, but that focused on my disagreement with their choice of dogma, and political action based on that dogma. I am married to a wonderful non-mormon woman that I love dearly.

I still practice the judeo-christian ethic, and the unwritten boy scout mantra of leaving it better than I found it.

There are many active mormons in my life that I love dearly. But there are few that I actually agree with when it comes to anything of a mormon specific religious nature.

At this point in my life, and after quite a bit of therapy, I can honestly say I have recovered from being a mormon. Now, I'm hoping to help others make their way through the emotional roller coaster one experiences when they choose to leave mormonism.

That being said, cheers!

Welcome, TWoody! I will look forward to getting to know you and partake of what you can bring to the table. We all have qualities and experiences we can learn from. I have already learned so much on my short time on this board. Don't be shy. :)

[Born Free]

I happened upon this website this evening, and thought it would be a good idea to join.

At this point in my life, and after quite a bit of therapy, I can honestly say I have recovered from being a mormon. Now, I'm hoping to help others make their way through the emotional roller coaster one experiences when they choose to leave mormonism.

That being said, cheers!

Welcome twoody,

Sounds like an interesting journey, so I am sure you will make a valuable contribution here. Your remark re therapy to recover has prompted me to start a new thread along those lines, so please make a controbution to it.

Daryl

[Born Free]

His greatest fear right now is if he completely lets go of the church then there is NOTHING to hold onto. Losing your belief in the church also seems to affect one's belief in God in general.


Best wishes

silverfox,

For my money this sentence is the GUTS of what we deal with in most TBMs. Sweet and simple as that. So the better we get at addressing that anxiety the more people will flow smoothly in their post-mormon phase.

I have no gripe that Mosim offers something of use at a particular stage in some people's development, BUT where I think most my anger lies, is with its arrogance in believing that it is the pinnacle of human development, when the truth is that that is a long, looooooong way from the truth, and the way it tries to stop people exploring what is beyond through fear and control. That for my money gets pretty close to my definition of evil (and I use the word cautiously these days).

Daryl

[free thinker]

silverfox,

For my money this sentence is the GUTS of what we deal with in most TBMs. Sweet and simple as that. So the better we get at addressing that anxiety the more people will flow smoothly in their post-mormon phase.

I have no gripe that Mosim offers something of use at a particular stage in some people's development, BUT where I think most my anger lies, is with its arrogance in believing that it is the pinnacle of human development, when the truth is that that is a long, looooooong way from the truth, and the way it tries to stop people exploring what is beyond through fear and control. That for my money gets pretty close to my definition of evil (and I use the word cautiously these days).

Daryl

I agree with you! Glad I am not alone in this thought!
Evil is a word to be used spareingly, but it sure is tempting in this context isn't it?

Free Thinker

[j_anderson]

My wife and I were happily married when our house of cards came crashing down about a year ago. We met at BYU, both served missions, married and had 4 small children. I'd spent several years in a couple bishoprics, and we'd both spent more than our share of time in painful callings in RS presidencies, HPGL, WML, EQP,...

Anyway, our families are Mormon as far as the 4-generation charts can see on both sides and we had adjusted as well as we thought possible. When a mutual goal to strengthen our convictions and learn more church history led us to the inevitable conclusion that we didn't believe any of it anymore, we had the mixed blessing of shedding unhealthy ideas while trying to preserve family relations.

Now that we've finally finished telling our family, meeting with our bishopric and stake president, and have some great friends we can talk to about these issues (most of whom we met on the Foyer) we feel like the worst is over and we can put our life together exactly how we want.

I love what Jeff and Paul and co. have done with this site, and hope it continues to attract thoughtful, good people more interested in what can lie ahead than forever reiterating that we were duped.

For the interested, here is a somewhat more detailed history when we were just coming out of the fog way back when: (Like most lazy writers, I can't "write a hundredth part" of what's happened since then...)

The early days of our awakening (http://www.aimoo.com/forum/postview.cfm?id=319220&CategoryID=32874&startcat=22&ThreadID=1485507)

We've had a wonderful time exploring a new world of ideas and possibilities. There's a small postmormon group that meets to play games and talk periodically in Salt Lake, and we're going to give it a shot for a few years to see if we can make our family work in Salt Lake now that we've crossed the tracks.

For a while, we felt a need for a community to talk about spiritual issues (though we both have continued our investigation into religion and have many similar feelings about Christianity in general as we do about Mormonism).

We've more or less settled into attending the Salt Lake UU church once or twice a month, and will probably raise our kids with that philosophy. They seem to have very liberal, enlightened approaches to ethical grounding and sex education for children that resonates with us (and we don't really hear anything we disagree with from the pulpit - what a change!) We also occasionally visit the Zen Center on Sundays, (just one of us- doesn't work too well with our young children) and other times just have fun as a family.

[peter_mary]

My wife and I were happily married when our house of cards came crashing down about a year ago. We met at BYU, both served missions, married and had 4 small children. I'd spent several years in a couple bishoprics, and we'd both spent more than our share of time in painful callings in RS presidencies, HPGL, WML, EQP,...



J_Anderson (SL Slacker),

Thanks for the intro. Your story is awfully familiar to me...practically mine, with the exception of the number of missions served in your family (2) versus our family (0), so I guess that means we have less to feel guilty about NOW than you do! :) But the pattern of leaving is oh so familiar...what is AMAZING to me is the number of educated, intelligent people who continue on, without ever encountering "the rest of the story."

Welcome to Post-Mormon.org!

Paul

[free thinker]

My wife and I were happily married when our house of cards came crashing down about a year ago. We met at BYU, both served missions, married and had 4 small children. I'd spent several years in a couple bishoprics, and we'd both spent more than our share of time in painful callings in RS presidencies, HPGL, WML, EQP,...

Anyway, our families are Mormon as far as the 4-generation charts can see on both sides and we had adjusted as well as we thought possible. When a mutual goal to strengthen our convictions and learn more church history led us to the inevitable conclusion that we didn't believe any of it anymore, we had the mixed blessing of shedding unhealthy ideas while trying to preserve family relations.

Now that we've finally finished telling our family, meeting with our bishopric and stake president, and have some great friends we can talk to about these issues (most of whom we met on the Foyer) we feel like the worst is over and we can put our life together exactly how we want.

I love what Jeff and Paul and co. have done with this site, and hope it continues to attract thoughtful, good people more interested in what can lie ahead than forever reiterating that we were duped.

For the interested, here is a somewhat more detailed history when we were just coming out of the fog way back when: (Like most lazy writers, I can't "write a hundredth part" of what's happened since then...)

The early days of our awakening (http://www.aimoo.com/forum/postview.cfm?id=319220&CategoryID=32874&startcat=22&ThreadID=1485507)

We've had a wonderful time exploring a new world of ideas and possibilities. There's a small postmormon group that meets to play games and talk periodically in Salt Lake, and we're going to give it a shot for a few years to see if we can make our family work in Salt Lake now that we've crossed the tracks.

For a while, we felt a need for a community to talk about spiritual issues (though we both have continued our investigation into religion and have many similar feelings about Christianity in general as we do about Mormonism).

We've more or less settled into attending the Salt Lake UU church once or twice a month, and will probably raise our kids with that philosophy. They seem to have very liberal, enlightened approaches to ethical grounding and sex education for children that resonates with us (and we don't really hear anything we disagree with from the pulpit - what a change!) We also occasionally visit the Zen Center on Sundays, (just one of us- doesn't work too well with our young children) and other times just have fun as a family.

The only regret I have is that I came out so very angry. I did not face it with the equanimity you and your wife have! I think it underscores the realization that we all gained some good from the church. At least this is true for me.

Never the less, I could never go back as I too have tasted the sweetness of a less guilt ridden life.

Thanks for your post. It was helpful to me!

Free Thinker

[dragonreborn]

I have been inactive for a while about 5 years. I have recently decided to go the final step and have my name removed. Even though I do not believe in the church anymore, does anyone else feel in limbo? I have been in the church 30 something years and even though it was not true. It has been with me my entire life. I feel like I need something to fill the void. But I do not want to jump into a new religon anytime soon. Does anyone have any ideas? Please help. :confused:

[dogzilla]

I can understand that feeling of limbo. It comes, I think, from rejecting a core belief system and having nothing ready to replace it. You stop and realize, "Wait. What do I believe in now?"

My lame advice is to start slowly and look at this as a learning opportunity. Start reading about other religions that seem like they are the polar opposite of mormonism. I found Buddhism a good place to start; you might like Hinduism instead. Or Islam. Doesn't matter. (I've noticed that a lot of postmos tend either toward pagan/wicca religions or eastern philosophies like those I mentioned above. I think it's because they are so different, we exmos like to adopt something that makes sense, fits us and yet doesn't remotely resemble a mormon god. I found myself rejecting Christianity entirely.)

Remember, you don't have to commit to a belief system right this minute. You don't have to practice Buddhism. Just because you don't have that familiar spiritual framework from which to make daily decisions in life doesn't mean you're lost, adrift or well, it doesn't mean anything. People do well and even thrive without religion entirely.

Just start reading and asking questions on message boards and find out what other people think and read about. Soon, you'll find yourself rejecting some things and incorporating other new ideas into your value system and before you know it, you'll realize this is just another step in the journey and that void you're feeling has been replaced by stunning new realizations that make your life seem even more rich and beautiful.

[nomomo]

I have been falling out of belief for about 6 to 8 years. Married for almost 13. My husband is TBM. My daughter is being indoctrinated quite well in our little rural Arizona town. She is 7 and on the verge of baptism. My desire for her is to set a spiritual example of submission to God, but not to the church. She should have her own life, and make her own decisions. What a concept, huh? She is a brilliant girl whose talents and passions would be sadly wasted on the church.

We have TB friends who are "ambitious within the church." We share carpool rides and a babysitting co-op that are useful and cost-effective in a communist sort of way. I am in the very angry and disgusted stage. I have rejected the doctrine for so long...but coming out is a fearful proposition for me and so I am still wearing garments. I fear I am in a bipolar Mormon stage.

I find my bishopric is trying to "rein me in," with multiple teaching callings. I resent the ward "leadership" where my personal life is fair game to weekly discussion, and my 3 years worth of volunteer work in a library literacy program were disregarded because they weren't publicly sanctioned by the ward. After volunteering in the local Girl Scout troop I was asked to serve in Activity Days (the church spinoff program). And my husband doesn't see any evidence of control!

I confessed my feelings to TB friend who shared with her primary presidency. Next fast meeting one of the counselors studiously avoided looking at me while bearing her testimony of the obviousness of the BOM. "If you'd just read it, you would know it is true as I do... etc." I feel sorry for these women, but the church mindset makes me angry. Others have described this mindset far better than I could. You know what it is.

Just this Sunday I was asked to take on a "leaderly" role in the Activity Day calling, something I have been avoiding. I said no, unless I was released from another calling, and received a lecture about being mediocre in Mo.

I just recently began working again, reclaiming my individuality. I have sacrificed much of myself and feel like I'm picking up lost pieces.

My DH is the Elder's Quorum pres. He doesn't do his home teaching, and seems worn down by the rigamorale, but is insistant that he believes. He has meetings 3 or 4 times a week and goes to weekly meetings at 7 a.m. on Sundays. I think he feels deeply inadequate about his time serving. I think deep down he knows the emptiness has a reason. He tries to respect my position but is obviously threatened, for many reasons stated by others. I try to respect his position but am angry and jealous of the time commitment the church requires of him.

I brought up some of the "alternate" facts about Joseph Smith, and he compared this to desecrating God. Open dialogue is not really an option for me, yet.

I am very frustrated. I hate church. Personally, I am hanging on to the core of the Christian NT belief system, as this appeals to me, but am actually so burned out that I'm struggling to have any kind of spiritual life outside of "attending meetings." I see Sundays as "getting through."

The experience that turned the tide for me was when 3 years ago, we experienced a time of unemployment, and I was deeply depressed. I found comfort in a non-denominational bible study class I was invited to attend, and had an overwhelming spiritual experience never matched in Mo.

If I were not married to the church, I would walk away and never look back.

[peter_mary]

I am very frustrated. I hate church. Personally, I am hanging on to the core of the Christian NT belief system, as this appeals to me, but am actually so burned out that I'm struggling to have any kind of spiritual life outside of "attending meetings." I see Sundays as "getting through."

If I were not married to the church, I would walk away and never look back.

There are SO many frustrations when you are caught with one foot in two worlds. Sometimes we felt like we had one foot on two ice bergs that were slowly drifting apart...and for a time, it felt like we were going to be ripped in two! Eventually, it forces a person to jump to one or the other. The question is, how gracefully will you do it?

The anger and bitterness is as much a part of leaving as sunrise is a part of day. I hope you find a safe place here at Post-Mormon to process your feelings and to obtain the support you need to stay sane.

Welcome, and thanks for introducing yourself!

Paul

[nomomo]

The anger and bitterness is as much a part of leaving as sunrise is a part of day. I hope you find a safe place here at Post-Mormon to process your feelings and to obtain the support you need to stay sane.

Paul

Thanks. I feel like one of those dark silhouetted post-drug addicts in church promo films.

How do you exit gracefully? I would like to disentangle with dignity, keep my marriage strong and secure, and move on to greater self-actualization, free thinking, and guilt-free living.

Lashing out at the world and the church is not my ideal goal. But letting it control me is definitely no longer acceptable.

[miss taken]

Um. Hi. I joined the church when I was eight. Served an honourable mission, even elected to stay for an extra month.. Did lots of callings, was kept very busy.
Became a school teacher. Left the church after quite a few years of agonising over it. Felt like the bottom had been pulled out of my world. Was always open to questioning, as had inactive parents, and read widely.
Read Van Wagoner's book on Mormon Polygamy, got it from an LDS symposium. Was never told about Fanny Alger. Started to think JS was a little like David Koresh.
Never understood why Spencer Kimball had said a carpenter could never be profit (woops Freudian slip meant to say prophet) (to Alan Wicker here in England) particularly since Jesus was one. Didn't understand the churches take on race, evolution (couldn't mention dinosaurs) and I came to believe that the Lamanites came across the Beiring Straits, and so were not who the leadership said they were.
Church did me a lot of good, I prefer to remember that, had some great times. As an inactive person, I was married to my wonderful non-lds husband by my former bishop who still is one of the most christ like people I know. Still keep in touch with friends, and accept that they think I am now in Satan's hands. Have never publically talked about my present beliefs, as don't wish to offend any mormons, who are just like society full of good, bad and just plain fanatical. I left the church about 10 years ago. and not because I had done anything wrong (which is what people seemed to want to beleive) I just didn't believe JS was, what he said he was. I think that the church makes many people better. I don't like the religious elitism that it seems to foster. I may not always feel like this, and I feel rather guilty for writing it. (See the mindset still gets me, and its been 10 years!!!)

[peter_mary]

I may not always feel like this, and I feel rather guilty for writing it. (See the mindset still gets me, and its been 10 years!!!)

Miss Taken,

Welcome to Post-Mormon, where we write and write and write and eventually, the guilt goes away. I think that's the power of a place like this...it gives you a chance to dump that pent-up burden, look at it laying there on the ground, and finally walk away. I read recently where some research had demonstrated that THE best way to heal from emotional hurt was to talk about the thing that hurt you. As soon as you give it a voice (either vocal or written), your brain begins to deal with the emotions and get 'em taken care of. Glad you found us, and hope to hear from you more!

Paul

[miss taken]

Thanks Paul.
I have to say too, that in questioning JS, I also felt that to be fair, I also had to question the historical foundation of christianity itself. So as well as researching all that was available to me on LDS history, I also spent years investigating early church (as in from 30AD onwards) history, and the person of Jesus.

It may be that early church history is as white-washed as LDS history. Christianity quickly became a tool of power and control, from the start, Constantine, and over here in England, the monks tended to convert kings first where possible. No religion is perfect IMHO. I do believe in a God of Love, that God is love. I don't care if Jesus was married or not, and I respect what I have come to know about him. Though a lot of christianity itself is a matter of faith which cannot be tried by historical investigation. The new testament itself is full of contradiction, and is not a perfect document. I think the LDS church have got the 'as far as is translated correctly' bit right.

If the LDS church helps someone to be a better loving person, then there are worse things they could do than joining it. It just wasn't right for me.
Thanks for reading (okay...I didn't feel so guilty posting that!!!!!)

[peter_mary]

I have to say too, that in questioning JS, I also felt that to be fair, I also had to question the historical foundation of christianity itself. So as well as researching all that was available to me on LDS history, I also spent years investigating early church (as in from 30AD onwards) history, and the person of Jesus.

It may be that early church history is as white-washed as LDS history. Christianity quickly became a tool of power and control, from the start, Constantine, and over here in England, the monks tended to convert kings first where possible. No religion is perfect IMHO.

I would love to know what the stats are on this, but it seems incredibly common for people leaving the Church to question EVERYTHING...and it seems almost as equally common to end up without a desire for religion at all. Some consider that throwing the baby out with the bathwater, but I think it has more to do with just what you suggested...the same tools you used to deconstruct Mormonism are equally as effective in deconstructing religion in general. Not everyone feels that way, obviously, and there are religiously devout folks on this forum, but it is not uncommon for former Mormons to end up on the other extreme of that continuum!

Paul

[Born Free]

I would love to know what the stats are on this, but it seems incredibly common for people leaving the Church to question EVERYTHING...and it seems almost as equally common to end up without a desire for religion at all. Some consider that throwing the baby out with the bathwater, but I think it has more to do with just what you suggested...the same tools you used to deconstruct Mormonism are equally as effective in deconstructing religion in general. Not everyone feels that way, obviously, and there are religiously devout folks on this forum, but it is not uncommon for former Mormons to end up on the other extreme of that continuum!

Paul

Paul,

I remember a point in my process when I concluded that I had to review all the assumptions I had on board about teh nature of God. I discovered a very problematic aspect of that..... that most references to God in the FAT (computer metaphore here - File Allocation Table) were not logged. The reason seemed to be that when they were written, they were taken as so reliable that they were like "The sun rises in the east and sets in teh west".

I then discovered that it was extremely hard to locate and then isolate for scrutiny, any assumptions about "God and the nature thereof" in my belief structure. Now that said, I have found that work amongst the most useful and satifying of my journey.

I have attached (as a PS) one paragraph extract from John Shelby Spongs' latest essay. This one paragraph presents massive problems for the simplistic literal way I was encouraged to view the scritpures whilst a Mormon. I find all of Christian and Mormon teaching can be subjected to this level of scrutiny, and I now believe that anyone still holding a literal belief in the scriptures after that process, has a real problem.

Daryl

PS: Extract from Spong essay: "Western Christians find it hard to understand that the gospel writers were not writing objective history. Yet nothing we know about the formation of the New Testament supports that conclusion. Jesus lived between 4 BCE and 30 CE. He spoke and taught in Aramaic. The gospels came 40 to 70 years after his death and they were written in Greek. This means that almost everything that we know about Jesus lived in oral transmission and underwent one translation before we get to the earliest documents that we possess. During that time his followers had continued to worship in the synagogues of their ancestral Jewish faith before the movement that he had begun separated itself from Judaism in 88 CE and came to be called Christianity. They were originally called "The Followers of the Way."

[dogzilla]

PS: Extract from Spong essay: "Western Christians find it hard to understand that the gospel writers were not writing objective history. Yet nothing we know about the formation of the New Testament supports that conclusion. Jesus lived between 4 BCE and 30 CE. He spoke and taught in Aramaic. The gospels came 40 to 70 years after his death and they were written in Greek. This means that almost everything that we know about Jesus lived in oral transmission and underwent one translation before we get to the earliest documents that we possess. During that time his followers had continued to worship in the synagogues of their ancestral Jewish faith before the movement that he had begun separated itself from Judaism in 88 CE and came to be called Christianity. They were originally called "The Followers of the Way."

That is fascinating to me. What does that possibly say about "The Passion of the Christ?" in that case? (A movie I refused to see for so many reasons.) Was it completely inaccurate? (I would assume so, being a Hollywood account of supposed events occurring more than 2000 years ago.)

[pokatator]

That is fascinating to me. What does that possibly say about "The Passion of the Christ?" in that case? (A movie I refused to see for so many reasons.) Was it completely inaccurate? (I would assume so, being a Hollywood account of supposed events occurring more than 2000 years ago.)
Actually most scholars agree that The Passion movie was realistic as far as the crucifixion itself. The accuracy of the scene (the storyboard) is from the Bible. The blood and gore of crucifixion is some from the bible and from other accounts. There are lots of non biblical descriptions and accounts of Roman crucifixion.

[Born Free]

That is fascinating to me. What does that possibly say about "The Passion of the Christ?" in that case? (A movie I refused to see for so many reasons.) Was it completely inaccurate? (I would assume so, being a Hollywood account of supposed events occurring more than 2000 years ago.)

Spong and many other Biblical scholars regard the PoC as significantly a fictional work, (some add - in the best sado-masochistic Catholic Christian tradition). As he points to in that extract, the early 'Christin' sect sat within mainstream Jewish faith for decades until it distanced itself from zealot activitism (and in turn mainstream Judeaism) to save its neck with Rome. At that point teh Judas story emerged. What is lost on us English speakers unfamiliar with the language, the name Judas tranlsates as Judah! (Funny to give teh baddy in the story the name of teh entire Jewish people - which concept reached its most obscene heights in Nazis claiming Christ was actually Ayran!) He points to ample examples that the Passover story heavily polluted the cruxification story during that period whilst it was not written down.

Like you, I refuse point blank to view Gibson's torrid Catholic guilt workover (I personally regard it as near to pornography - violence for its own sake). But then, I completely reject the notion that anyone had to die for my sins. I regard that as primitive scapegoating, that has deep roots in traditional religous notions that the Gods can be bribed, cajoled, tempted, bought-off etc. So when someone takes as a starting point something I reject from the start, and then turns it into a S&M bloodfest, I want to puke :Puking (Ah! I finally got to use the little puker!)

These days we regard managers and judges who can be bribed as corrupt and deserving of contempt, so why treat the notion of a God who can be swayed with any more respect?

The whole idea of pennance in the Catholic Church was not inconsistent with the basic idea that you can shift guilt around and bribe God, just that it took the idea so far as to upset some folks (read too far beyond what they had already been desensitixed to).

Spong (and like minds) offers another whole insight into the scriptures. Just seeing the Old Testament through Jewish eyes is illuminating, once you get to see how much we filter the OT through New Testament & Christian sensitivies and filters. I would recommend most post-Mos read at least some of his material before rejecting or embracing Christianity in its entirety. He opens up the possibility of a far more expansive, love-based, God concept, that is so far beyond traditional constipated Christian notions as to be nearly unrecognisable. I for one find him a breath of fresh air.

Spong argues that if you read the NT gospels in the sequence scholars now believe they were written, you can see notions of Christs divinity being developed on the fly - evolving, as it were. For example the point at which his divinity is acknowledged gets earlier, starting at this death, and then moving progressively earlier, beyond his birth, until OT scripture is claimed to be pointing to, and announcing him.

The first book of his I read was "Why Christianity Must Change or Die". I loved it, and wished I could have found something like it 20 years ago. It was only then that I could start to countenance anyting other than a complete rejection of Jesus the Miracle Worker from Gallilee.

Daryl

[free thinker]

I agree with Daryl. Who said I am estranged from God? Who has the right, or authority, to say that? Maybe we are not estranged from God!! I dont think we are. I am going to have to read some of Spong. Sounds very interesting!

When you take a chance to reconsider, in a different light, all you have been taught since childhood, it is quite refreshing. I think it is important to note that if Jesus was only a historical figure, it does not mean we are completely lost. Perhaps God, whoever that is, cares deeply, but is more benign than we would wish to think!!

Just a thought!

[Jeff_Ricks]

Spong (and like minds) offers another whole insight into the scriptures. Just seeing the Old Testament through Jewish eyes is illuminating, once you get to see how much we filter the OT through New Testament & Christian sensitivies and filters. I would recommend most post-Mos read at least some of his material before rejecting or embracing Christianity in its entirety. He opens up the possibility of a far more expansive, love-based, God concept, that is so far beyond traditional constipated Christian notions as to be nearly unrecognisable. I for one find him a breath of fresh air.

Spong argues that if you read the NT gospels in the sequence scholars now believe they were written, you can see notions of Christs divinity being developed on the fly - evolving, as it were. For example the point at which his divinity is acknowledged gets earlier, starting at this death, and then moving progressively earlier, beyond his birth, until OT scripture is claimed to be pointing to, and announcing him.

I’m interested in reading Spong now because after I reasoned my way out Mormonism and kept going, reasoning my way through Christianity I had the opportunity to ask a number of very educated Christians to show me where it mentions Jesus in the Old Testament without taking it out of context and to date no one has been able to. Those who tried included a divinity college trained pastor and a professor of Christianity at a Christian university. They all gave up or offered the same excuses Mormonism does for taking scripture out of context in order to apply it to Joseph Smith or Mormonism, ie., prophecy has duel meaning, that's something we don't understand yet -- just have faith, etc. So I had to leave behind Christianity too for the same reasons I left behind Mormonism.

But in the process of examining the Old Testament rather closely, I too concluded that the original authors (of the so-called prophecies in particular) had in mind quite a different notion of God than does Christianity. In fact it’s a notion that appears to me to qualify as atheistic when compared to the typical Judeo-Christian-Muslim notion of a god-being existing somewhere in the universe. In fact, to me it appears to be best described as a blend of psychology and Buddhism and seems to speak not of a god out there somewhere in the universe that we need to get in touch with and placate. Instead they seem to write about a the deeper parts of our consciousness we lose touch with as we get carried away by the usual routines and concerns of the life. The author (or authors) of the concepts attributed to Jesus in the NT seemed to be influenced by this paradigm. The NT quotes Jesus as saying that the kingdom of god is within you. The word Immanuel in the OT is Hebrew for “god within” typically translated by the Christian biased translators of the Bible as “god with us.” The translators correctly translate “eem” as “with” and “el” as god, but they ignore the middle part “manoo” which means hidden, inside, inward etc. So, Immanuel appears to literally translate as “eem” “manoo” “el”, with-in ( is) god, not “god with us” as the Bible erroneously states.

The Hebrews usually translated as Lord in the OT comes form the Hebrew yahweh where yah means “to be, to exist, to live” etc. It seems to speak of life or consciousness, and specifically the part of our consciousness that is deep within us – perhaps our subconscious mind or perhaps even deeper on the order of Jung’s archetypes that he claims exists as the deepest part of our psyche’s. Jung’s collective conscious also seems to be something these ancient Hebrew authors understood. They seemed to view this god within us as a collective thing. Names such as Lord of Hosts (from the Hebrew “yahweh tsaba” seem to stem from this concept and literally mean something like, “to be or to live (within) a body of people.

There’s more I’d like to say on this but I’d better get to work. I'm planning to write some papers or a book on this subject. What I've touched on here only scratches the surface of the subject and the material to back it up. If I write a book it will probably be called something like, "The Atheist Roots of Judeo-Christianity." I respect the choice of some who have left Mormonism and embraced Christianity. As for me, I choose otherwise and am very much at peace with that choice.

Jeff

[miss taken]

Jeff I found the notions you discuss about the words emmanuel, and Yahveh, to be extremely interesting. Would love to know more.

[Born Free]

I’m interested in reading Spong now because after I reasoned my way out Mormonism and kept going, reasoning my way through Christianity I had the opportunity to ask a number of very educated Christians to show me where it mentions Jesus in the Old Testament without taking it out of context and to date no one has been able to. Those who tried included a divinity college trained pastor and a professor of Christianity at a Christian university. They all gave up or offered the same excuses Mormonism does for taking scripture out of context in order to apply it to Joseph Smith or Mormonism, ie., prophecy has duel meaning, that's something we don't understand yet -- just have faith, etc. So I had to leave behind Christianity too for the same reasons I left behind Mormonism.

Jeff

Jeff,

If I am reading your angle correctly, you will warm to Spong. He argues that some religion's attempts to 'define' God (and Mormonism is a good example) are guilty of idolatry. He argues that when we insist that with human understanding, we can get a grip on "GOD", then we are in big strife, and that the Jewish concept of not even using the name of God to avoid limiting God to human capacities, is a good example of checking against that.

I have gone along to listen to him the last 2 times he was in Australia (where interestingly enough, he says he has a bigger following on a per capita basis than the US, his homeland) and in response to questions about what his God concept was after the journey he has been through, it was "God is love; love is God". Further a key phrase you will hear him use again and again is that we show our love for God by "being all that we might be, by loving willfully and wastefully", a theme I find highly consistent with what many post-Mos report on this site. They refuse to live lives constrained by fear any longer!

Like you, once I got my head in gear enough to really deconstruct Mormonism, it seemed lazy and security-seeking to stop short of following through with Christianity. After all, early Christianity had the same problems of human beings with their fears, history, traditions, biases, alliances, politicing, socialisation etc as did Mormonism, so why should Christianity be any more immune than Mormonism?

As I said, Christainity was falling apart nearly as badly as Mormonism (for me) until Spong postured a major reframe, as a basis of letting go of all the miracle working, all the scripture that is now widely held to be ghost written, and stripping, and stripping until you are back to something approximating what really went down.

He says his audience is the Church alumni - all those who walked because they could not tolerant the mindlessness, willful anti-science/modernity and fear-based control any more. Sound familiar?

He has been very vocal and attracted no end of criticism for his statements (and books) on homosexuality and the Church and women and the Priesthood both of which he argues are sociological constructs and in a few years will be regarded as repugnant as slavery (which was also once justified by scripture).

Jeff, you have a fine mind, and do your research, so I think you will enjoy and feel stimulated by him. He was like a breath of fresh air for me!

Daryl

[Jeff_Ricks]

Jeff I found the notions you discuss about the words emmanuel, and Yahveh, to be extremely interesting. Would love to know more.

Thanks. I'm glad you found it interesting. I wish I had more time to write about it. Another interesting tidbit -- a rather significant one -- is the word we typically pronounce as elohiem and is usually translated as "God" in the Bible. Before vowel markings became part of written Hebrew at around 600 BC the natural pronunciation of the word was elahim. In other words, elahim is likely the original pronunciation. At any rate, the first three Hebrew letters of the word (aleph, lamed, heth) spell elah, which is Hebrew for "oak tree". The remaining two letters in the word (yod, mem) are pronounced "im" and are placed at the end of masculine Hebrew words to make them plural. For example, cherub becomes the plural cherubim and seraph becomes seraphim. And elah becomes elahim.

That oak tree is the intended meaning of the word is support by the passage in Genesis where it says, “elahim (God) created man in his own image, in the image of elahim (God) created he him; male and female created he them.” (Genesis 1:27). Most tree’s have either male or female flowers on them requiring both genders of a species to propagate the species. The oak tree is one of the few trees that has both male and female flowers on the same tree, making it a nifty metaphor for mankind which is also a collective organism that contains both male and female members. So, according to the earliest known writings, man is not created in the image of God but in the image and likeness of the oak tree.

It’s significant to note the some religious sects or cults within the Egyptian culture used trees as metaphors for their various gods, and the Hebrew people are thought to have come from Egypt. The Hebrew elahim seems to stem from this as does various plants used as metaphors for the things the Hebrew worshipped or held sacred. The messiah is called the Branch in Jeremiah, and is called the root out of dry ground a young plant in Isaiah. Jesus is said to have called himself the Vine. All of these appear to stem from the Egyptian worship of tree-gods or from their practice of using plants as metaphors for their gods.

So, when Jo Smith or Brigham Young say that God the Father is named Elohiem they couldn’t be more wrong and obviously haven't a friggin' clue where the word came from. Christian Bible scholars seem to be clueless as well when they "translate" (actually outright redefine completely) the name as God.

Jeff

P.S. I should point out before someone calls me on it that elah is a feminine Hebrew word, not a masculine word. Feminine Hebrew words are made plural by appending "oth" on the end of the word, not "im." But it seems clear that elahim and the oak tree are directly related. Perhaps the word was originally pronounced elahoth, but when the concept of a male deity crept into their culture, rather than completely scrapping their female deity, elahoth, they tweaked it a little by changing it from elahoth to elahim.

[Jeff_Ricks]

Jeff,

If I am reading your angle correctly, you will warm to Spong. ....

I think you will enjoy and feel stimulated by him. He was like a breath of fresh air for me!

Daryl

I read one of Spong's essays today and quite liked it. Thank you for sending me some of his other essays today Daryl!

Jeff

[Born Free]

I read one of Spong's essays today and quite liked it. Thank you for sending me some of his other essays today Daryl!

Jeff

Jeff,

Glad you liked it!

What I like about his approach is the love of truth or greater truth, so he keeps working at peeling away teh myths and untruths, and at least I figure that brings us closer to the historical Jesus Christ. If that means letting go of Christ teh Miracle Worker than, for me, that is just an inevitable proce to be paid. I would rather be looking at the man as he really was, and with what gifts or insights he really offered, that all warm and fuzzy with the myth of teh Divine Christ that is evidently based upon lies.

Everything I have ever read by him has the ring of just good sense.

He is interesting on evolution, saying that all the evidence is that rather than we have fallen from some innocent state to sordid sinful mortality, that all the evidence points that we are evolving as more moral, more ethical, more civilized and more loving. He takes the exact opposite view to many religions.

I have been meaning to get back to the thread re books we have gained greatly from. I would want to add the suggestion that we add some summary of the book, and what we got from it/what need in us it addressed.

[Alicia]

I joined the church at 15. My mother was very upset about it and thought my fling with the church wouldn’t last long. I went to Ricks, then on a mission then to BYU and then married in the temple. It wasn’t until very recently at 31 that I have left the church. My husband who comes from a TBM family left the church a year and a half ago, which broke my heart. I was pregnant at the time with our 3rd son, our oldest was 3 and our second son 1. Being exhausted and very emotional I tried hard not to think about the church because the anxiety would keep me up all night. I also was too tired to lug my big self and my two toddlers to church. The couple of times I did make it to church I nearly broke down in tears in front of every one. I was slowly and painfully letting go of dreams that had 15 years in the making.

Not attending church turned out to be very good for me. My mind started letting go of fear and I began to think for myself. It was tough because I had had many “spiritual experiences” and didn’t know what to do with them. I also felt like I had sacrificed a lot for the church. After I had joined the church my family and I moved to England and I was the only member on the military base. From that moment on if a friend or family member wasn’t a Mormon there seemed to be a huge wedge in our relationship. My mom was upset every time I took a large step towards the church (church schools, mission). The worst for her was when I married in the temple. She tried her hardest to be supportive.

The turning point for me wasn’t any of the history or even the DNA discoveries but it was an article I read on depression and Mormon women. When I read the article my mind did a complete shift, I felt like a huge thick veil was lifting from my mind. I could have stared at the wall for days if my kids didn’t need me. I forgot to send my four-year-old to preschool that day. Two days later I took off my garments and felt like I had lost 20 pounds. I felt so light and free and very excited.

I am enjoying my new life and looking forward to the adventure ahead. It is nice not to pretend like I have all of the answers.

[Born Free]

I could have stared at the wall for days if my kids didn’t need me. I forgot to send my four-year-old to preschool that day. Two days later I took off my garments and felt like I had lost 20 pounds. I felt so light and free and very excited.

I am enjoying my new life and looking forward to the adventure ahead. It is nice not to pretend like I have all of the answers.

Alicia,

Thanks for sharing your journey! I loved the sentence where you described the lightness felt when you stepped out. I laughed at the notion of the garments actually weighing 20lbs.

I never fail to be fascinated by the diversity of our journeys. You have been able to step "out of your garments" (from what I understood you to say) without a backwards glance. I recall, inspite that we were glad to leave, our Gs sat in a draw for a long time (with some of the fears that had been used to keep them a priority) before they were burnt. Still others struggle for years to starve the guilt to death by neglect.

I see it as valuable that we see and acknowledge the diversity in how we took Moism on board, and how we uncoupled from it.

Alicia, welcome on board. May your visits here be many and rewarding!

Daryl

[tjohnson]

The turning point for me wasn’t any of the history or even the DNA discoveries but it was an article I read on depression and Mormon women. When I read the article my mind did a complete shift, I felt like a huge thick veil was lifting from my mind. I could have stared at the wall for days if my kids didn’t need me. I forgot to send my four-year-old to preschool that day. Two days later I took off my garments and felt like I had lost 20 pounds. I felt so light and free and very excited.

I am enjoying my new life and looking forward to the adventure ahead. It is nice not to pretend like I have all of the answers.

That is a great story. Congrats on finally taking the garments off and moving forward with your life.

Is there any chance the article you read about depression in the church is online somewhere? :)

[silverfox]

I joined the church at 15. My mother was very upset about it and thought my fling with the church wouldn’t last long. I went to Ricks, then on a mission then to BYU and then married in the temple. It wasn’t until very recently at 31 that I have left the church. My husband who comes from a TBM family left the church a year and a half ago, which broke my heart. I was pregnant at the time with our 3rd son, our oldest was 3 and our second son 1. Being exhausted and very emotional I tried hard not to think about the church because the anxiety would keep me up all night. I also was too tired to lug my big self and my two toddlers to church. The couple of times I did make it to church I nearly broke down in tears in front of every one. I was slowly and painfully letting go of dreams that had 15 years in the making.

Not attending church turned out to be very good for me. My mind started letting go of fear and I began to think for myself. It was tough because I had had many “spiritual experiences” and didn’t know what to do with them. I also felt like I had sacrificed a lot for the church. After I had joined the church my family and I moved to England and I was the only member on the military base. From that moment on if a friend or family member wasn’t a Mormon there seemed to be a huge wedge in our relationship. My mom was upset every time I took a large step towards the church (church schools, mission). The worst for her was when I married in the temple. She tried her hardest to be supportive.

The turning point for me wasn’t any of the history or even the DNA discoveries but it was an article I read on depression and Mormon women. When I read the article my mind did a complete shift, I felt like a huge thick veil was lifting from my mind. I could have stared at the wall for days if my kids didn’t need me. I forgot to send my four-year-old to preschool that day. Two days later I took off my garments and felt like I had lost 20 pounds. I felt so light and free and very excited.

I am enjoying my new life and looking forward to the adventure ahead. It is nice not to pretend like I have all of the answers.

Thanks for sharing your story. Big congrats on the garmie thing. Best wishes on your new adventure through life. I look forward to your posts.

[free thinker]

Hope you enjoy this site as much as I do!! Congrats on your escape!! Now watch the world open up for you! Aint nuttin like REALLY BEING FREE!!


Free Thinker

[Born Free]

[QUOTE=Jeff_Ricks]Thanks. I'm glad you found it interesting. I wish I had more time to write about it. Another interesting tidbit -- a rather significant one -- is the word we typically pronounce as elohiem and is usually translated as "God" in the Bible. Before vowel markings became part of written Hebrew at around 600 BC the natural pronunciation of the word was elahim. In other words, elahim is likely the original pronunciation. At any rate, the first three Hebrew letters of the word (aleph, lamed, heth) spell elah, which is Hebrew for "oak tree". The remaining two letters in the word (yod, mem) are pronounced "im" and are placed at the end of masculine Hebrew words to make them plural. For example, cherub becomes the plural cherubim and seraph becomes seraphim. And elah becomes elahim.

Jeff,

Scripture starts to look very different when you go back to both the language in which it originated, AND the sociological context in which events occurred.

The ignorance and arrogance of projecting modern notions backwards across time never fails to amaze me. Joseph Smith was a great example, of course. In his immediate historical and social setting American Indians as part of the Lost Tribes was a ripping good yarn. Bummer when someone turns up a few hundred years later and throws a wet blanket over the nonsence with a technology inconceivable at that time.

The bibles literal advocates get stuck on its glaring problems with being taken literally: shepherds get their arse frozen off in December in Judean hills, the tree branches that were supposed to be waved at Christs coming into Jerusaleum, just are not abundent at that time of year, women did not have to report for the census, and 8 month pregnant woman laugh at the idea that some woman took a week long journey on donkey (and state that the story could only have been written by a man!) etc., etc..

Daryl

[Alicia]

Alicia,

Thanks for sharing your journey! I loved the sentence where you described the lightness felt when you stepped out. I laughed at the notion of the garments actually weighing 20lbs.

I never fail to be fascinated by the diversity of our journeys. You have been able to step "out of your garments" (from what I understood you to say) without a backwards glance. I recall, inspite that we were glad to leave, our Gs sat in a draw for a long time (with some of the fears that had been used to keep them a priority) before they were burnt. Still others struggle for years to starve the guilt to death by neglect.

Daryl

Thank you for all of your welcomes. I have enjoyed reading many of your different posts. I wish I had more time to write.

As for the Gs I have a couple of pairs in my drawer, just in case I guess. Most of them I cut up into rags, funny. I wish I could say all of the guilt is gone but I think the hardest part is over. It is sort of fun reminding myself that I don’t need to feel guilty about things I used to beat myself up over: reading my scriptures, praying morning and night on my knees. I still feel the need to pray sometimes but I am not sure whom I am praying to if any one, which is surprisingly ok. Most of the time I don’t even use words when I pray. I do what works for me now.

My new pleasures include but not limited to, watching Sex in the City, drinking an occasional coffee, having fun on Sunday, and thinking about what I want to think about.

Alicia

[Alicia]

That is a great story. Congrats on finally taking the garments off and moving forward with your life.

Is there any chance the article you read about depression in the church is online somewhere? :)

Here is the link to the article I read on line. http://www.exmormon.org/mormon/mormon197.htm
To me it didn’t matter if the information was accurate or not. This article helped me to see the reality of my own experience.

I first started having trouble with the way that leadership is organized in the church on my mission when my leaders were 19-year-old boys-men. I was repeatedly told that I needed to baptize to prove to the elders that sisters could baptize. I loved my mission because of the people I met and the adventure (I worked really hard and kept every damn rule) but I still get heated thinking about some of the crap I put up with and the smallness I felt. The hardest part was that I was on a mission because I really wanted to serve God but I found that hard to do with all of the politics.

When I was in the MTC one of the councilors in the branch presidency pulled me aside and reamed me telling me that I better not be there, on the mission, to find a husband. I could have smacked him. When it was finally time for me to leave that hell whole after two months he interviewed me again and told me that he was pleased with the changes I had made in the MTC. By that time I had learned that it was better to keep my mouth shut and to not smile too much.

Two months out in the field I got severely depressed and went on Prozac. I was able to come off when I came home. The author of the article I read said something to the affect that he found many women were most depressed in the church at the times when they were most faithful. This makes since because on my mission I believed with all my heart that the church was true and that God wanted me their serving Him. So what did it tell me when I was looked down upon because I was a women?

My thought is if God is loving why would he require us to follow an imperfect leader, thereby severely lessening our quality of life. It just doesn’t make sense.

Alicia

[doll94]

Is there a way to keep this thread on top for all new members to see? There are lots of members...I'd like to hear about you. So if you'd like please respond and tell us a little about yourselves....how long you were/have been a member, what you'd like to gain from this board, etc, etc. Don't be shy! It's all of you that make up this community and I am anxious to do some bonding. (uh oh, now I've scared them away) :) Okay, I won't try to bond too much......tag, you're it!


My husband and I haven't actually had our "names removed" (as if that's a possibility), but are happy to have, for all purposes, left the church. We'll resign at some point when it's more fitting for our circumstances. He was raised in the church by fanatical member parents who are now broken hearted that there will be "empty seats" in the Celestial Kingdom that were meant for us. My question is.... if we're all supposed to be Gods with our own individual worlds to run, how could we be together anyway?
I joined the church at age 18. Looking back, it was a way out of a terrible home-life I was stuck in, and did do me some good. I got an education, married a wonderful man, and have 4 beautiful children as a result of the church. If I hadn't joined I might still be living on the streets of Hollywood. That said, I am so happy and relieved to find out that the church is NOT true!!! I never felt good about doctrine such as 1) Only Mormons go to heaven (or at least the only one that really is desireable), 2) the resurrection when we're supposedly going to come out of the grave 3) that God would use fear and threats to get us to do what he wants us to do, 4) ordinances for the dead.....I could go on and on. I wanted to believe only because I'd gotten so into the culture that I didn't THINK I wanted any other lifestyle.

Now that I know the truth, I'm relieved to know that my non member family won't be cut off from me in the hereafter. That God is good and loving, not judging and limiting.

I look forward to more freedom as the members of our ward and my husband's family begin to realize we're not turning back and let us go. Maybe that'll never happen, but I think as time goes on they'll become more used to the idea. Right now they're all in mourning over "loosing us", as my mother-in-law puts it.

I'd like to hear from new PostMormons too. It feels reassuring to know we're not alone in this.

[silverfox]

I joined the church at age 18. Looking back, it was a way out of a terrible home-life I was stuck in, and did do me some good. I got an education, married a wonderful man, and have 4 beautiful children as a result of the church. If I hadn't joined I might still be living on the streets of Hollywood. That said, I am so happy and relieved to find out that the church is NOT true!!! I never felt good about doctrine such as 1) Only Mormons go to heaven (or at least the only one that really is desireable), 2) the resurrection when we're supposedly going to come out of the grave 3) that God would use fear and threats to get us to do what he wants us to do, 4) ordinances for the dead.....I could go on and on. I wanted to believe only because I'd gotten so into the culture that I didn't THINK I wanted any other lifestyle.

Now that I know the truth, I'm relieved to know that my non member family won't be cut off from me in the hereafter. That God is good and loving, not judging and limiting.



Welcome Doll!!!! Your story sounds very familiar. I left home at 16 - fleeing an unsavory home life. Although difficult (I was quite naive) I have never regretted it. Home life was THAT bad! I joined the church at 18 and I agree it gave me some stability. But that stability cost me a very big emotional price over my nearly 30 years as a member.

I look forward to getting to know you.

[Alicia]

If I hadn't joined I might still be living on the streets of Hollywood. That said, I am so happy and relieved to find out that the church is NOT true!!!

Welcome.

I feel the same way. I really don’t know where I would be if I didn’t join the church. But I am so happy, excited, and relieved to find out that the church isn’t true.

Alicia

[silverfox]

Welcome.

I feel the same way. I really don’t know where I would be if I didn’t join the church. But I am so happy, excited, and relieved to find out that the church isn’t true.

Alicia

I've thought about this a lot, looking back. I remember as a new member I wondered what would have ever have happened to me had I not "found the church". I do know that I was READY for stability and ready to take a different path. And had it not been the church I believe I would have found that stability elsewhere because I longed for it at the time. I may have joined another church or gravitated toward different people, etc. I dunno. I think we control our destiny much more than we think and don't give ourselves enough credit. But my famous disclaimer....what do I know? :)

[trustno1]

I've thought about this a lot, looking back. I remember as a new member I wondered what would have ever have happened to me had I not "found the church". I do know that I was READY for stability and ready to take a different path. And had it not been the church I believe I would have found that stability elsewhere because I longed for it at the time. I may have joined another church or gravitated toward different people, etc. I dunno. I think we control our destiny much more than we think and don't give ourselves enough credit. But my famous disclaimer....what do I know? :)

Concur. I had been struggling to move away from a very self-destructive path when the mishes came a knocking. It was a very vulnerable time in my life (I'm pretty certain now that they had been steered my way by a TBM friend). I was baptized after 3 weeks (age 18) and then left for a year of military training a week after that. Looking back (now age 47) it's really easy to give away all the credit to those institutions for turning my life around. For me, this has translated into alternating periods of anxiety and depression for many years after leaving the church in 1985. Gee, a double dose of brain washing! Actually, I enjoyed being a member that first year or so. It wasn't until I returned to Zion and checked in at the LTM in 1977 that all began to seem not so well...

This site has been very healing (along with the others). I only discovered them last week. I left Idaho about a year after leaving the church but am only now finding the courage to consider having my name removed. They don't know where I am (thanks to my crazy but non-mo family) ... hard to believe they still hold so much power over me.

Jeff De

[silverfox]

Concur. I had been struggling to move away from a very self-destructive path when the mishes came a knocking. It was a very vulnerable time in my life (I'm pretty certain now that they had been steered my way by a TBM friend). I was baptized after 3 weeks (age 18) and then left for a year of military training a week after that. Looking back (now age 47) it's really easy to give away all the credit to those institutions for turning my life around. For me, this has translated into alternating periods of anxiety and depression for many years after leaving the church in 1985. Gee, a double dose of brain washing! Actually, I enjoyed being a member that first year or so. It wasn't until I returned to Zion and checked in at the LTM in 1977 that all began to seem not so well...

This site has been very healing (along with the others). I only discovered them last week. I left Idaho about a year after leaving the church but am only now finding the courage to consider having my name removed. They don't know where I am (thanks to my crazy but non-mo family) ... hard to believe they still hold so much power over me.

Jeff De

Welcome and thanks for sharing your experience. I'm looking forward to getting to know you through your posts.

[stu4491]

I just joined and registered to this site yesterday so I am just beginning to read the various posts and other information available. I consider myself post mormon even though my name is still on the church records. It has been less than a year now that I have made the change from TBM to this status. I am a third generation mormon with my parents and other 5 siblings still TBMs. I have been married for 37 years to a still TBM wife whom I love and adore dearly and 5 of my six children are still TBMs. I live now in happy valley (Orem) and have for the past near nine years. I am a retired military man. I lived my whole life and raised my family as best I could following the mormon church teachings and bringing my family up in the chruch as well. Met my wife at BYU in 1967 after returning from a mission to Northern Calif. I blindly accepted as true all that I was taught from my parents and the church and never felt the need to question much or ever delve into any forbidden anti-mormon literature. My journey to finding more truth about the chruch started about a year ago when I just happened to read an article in the local paper about the Mountain Meadow Massacre and it listed a web site that I went to to find out more information. I became quite concerned about finding more truth about this incident and did a bit of research and discovered a huge injustice in the slaughter of many innocent men, women, and children that was carried out by a group of maybe 50 or more mormon men plus indians recruited by the mormons. I found that the church has done little to bring justice to those deserving for their part in this crime and in fact have tried very hard to cover up the facts and any church involvement in this tragedy. I have read the full confession of John D. Lee written just prior to his death by firing squad and his story certainly seems more believable than other versions that the church would have you believe. Anyway, this all started me into a search of church history truth that might be different from the sanitized version I had been given from the church since my youth. And as most of you who are also now post mormon have found out, the truth in so many ways has been kept from us. It now appears evident to me that the BOM is fiction as is the BOA and that Joseph Smith was not a true prophet who received true revelation from God. So, now, despite my living in the middle of mormandom and all my family and friends being TBMs, I can not talk nor share my church concerns with anyone without it causing me undue stress. I have quit going to church now for over 6 months and the bish knows of my concerns but none other than my wife who knows them well. It is, however, very hard to talk with her much about this as it just leads to bad feelings and arguments and so we have just agreed to disgree for the time being. Thus I have turned to the internet for support from others in a similiar situation as I am in. My children may have some suspicions of problems I am having but for the most part have no idea where I am right now. All my children are out of the home now (three of them married) except my youngest who is 20. So there you have a nutshell description of me and my situation. What I do need is some support and understanding from others who feel the same way I do as it is hard to feel so alone in this journey. I do love the people in the church I know very much and admire the church for the much good it does in teaching its members to be good honest people but am now unable to accept as true many of the doctrines it teaches as they came from a false prophet. Thanks to any of you who wish to reach out in help and support for me at this time. Stewart

[peter_mary]

What I do need is some support and understanding from others who feel the same way I do as it is hard to feel so alone in this journey. I do love the people in the church I know very much and admire the church for the much good it does in teaching its members to be good honest people but am now unable to accept as true many of the doctrines it teaches as they came from a false prophet. Thanks to any of you who wish to reach out in help and support for me at this time. Stewart

Welcome, Stewart,

It is our mission (if I may use that word without conjuring images of 19 year old men in white shirts and name badges!) to provide exactly the support you are seeking. So many find themselves in just your situation, and often so isolated that they don't realize that someone sitting on the other side of the chapel may harbor the same doubts and feelings they do, and are equally afraid to speak up. The fear of apostates and apostacy is sufficiently ingrained in Mormon people to ensure that as long as you live among 'em, it's hard to just evolve along the course you've set for yourself.

We hope you feel free to jump in and join any conversation you find here, and we look forward to learning from your insight "living among the Saints!"

Paul

[free thinker]

First I want to thank you for serving our country in the military. I want to personally thank you for helping keep us free!!

I read "Under the Banner of Heaven" by John Krakauer. This too, was an expose of the incident you mentioned at Mountain Meadows. I was appalled and sickened ! :Puking To think that I had testified to the truth of a church that would cover up such an atrocity, made me feel very betrayed. There are many on this web site who know that cold blooded murder, and plunder took place that day in 1857. I hope it is never forgotten. !!!!

I , like you, am new to post-mormon life. I, like you, was brought here as a consequence of reading information on the www that made me realize the church is built on lies, and the vivid imagination of Joseph Smith. He was an ill tempered, lustful, power hungry , arrogant man. :mad:

You will find freinds here!! I am one! Welcome and I wish you the absolute very best!!

Free Thinker

[doll94]

I just joined and registered to this site yesterday so I am just beginning to read the various posts and other information available. I consider myself post mormon even though my name is still on the church records. It has been less than a year now that I have made the change from TBM to this status. I am a third generation mormon with my parents and other 5 siblings still TBMs. I have been married for 37 years to a still TBM wife whom I love and adore dearly and 5 of my six children are still TBMs. I live now in happy valley (Orem) and have for the past near nine years. I am a retired military man. I lived my whole life and raised my family as best I could following the mormon church teachings and bringing my family up in the chruch as well. Met my wife at BYU in 1967 after returning from a mission to Northern Calif. I blindly accepted as true all that I was taught from my parents and the church and never felt the need to question much or ever delve into any forbidden anti-mormon literature. My journey to finding more truth about the chruch started about a year ago when I just happened to read an article in the local paper about the Mountain Meadow Massacre and it listed a web site that I went to to find out more information. I became quite concerned about finding more truth about this incident and did a bit of research and discovered a huge injustice in the slaughter of many innocent men, women, and children that was carried out by a group of maybe 50 or more mormon men plus indians recruited by the mormons. I found that the church has done little to bring justice to those deserving for their part in this crime and in fact have tried very hard to cover up the facts and any church involvement in this tragedy. I have read the full confession of John D. Lee written just prior to his death by firing squad and his story certainly seems more believable than other versions that the church would have you believe. Anyway, this all started me into a search of church history truth that might be different from the sanitized version I had been given from the church since my youth. And as most of you who are also now post mormon have found out, the truth in so many ways has been kept from us. It now appears evident to me that the BOM is fiction as is the BOA and that Joseph Smith was not a true prophet who received true revelation from God. So, now, despite my living in the middle of mormandom and all my family and friends being TBMs, I can not talk nor share my church concerns with anyone without it causing me undue stress. I have quit going to church now for over 6 months and the bish knows of my concerns but none other than my wife who knows them well. It is, however, very hard to talk with her much about this as it just leads to bad feelings and arguments and so we have just agreed to disgree for the time being. Thus I have turned to the internet for support from others in a similiar situation as I am in. My children may have some suspicions of problems I am having but for the most part have no idea where I am right now. All my children are out of the home now (three of them married) except my youngest who is 20. So there you have a nutshell description of me and my situation. What I do need is some support and understanding from others who feel the same way I do as it is hard to feel so alone in this journey. I do love the people in the church I know very much and admire the church for the much good it does in teaching its members to be good honest people but am now unable to accept as true many of the doctrines it teaches as they came from a false prophet. Thanks to any of you who wish to reach out in help and support for me at this time. Stewart

I lived in Orem for a time and totally undertsand how difficult it must be for you. I'm in California now and it's hard enough - but Happy Valley? Sheesh! My husband and I have, in our hearts left the church but also have not had our names removed yet. His family isn't just "mormon", they're fanatical. He works for his dad, and if he comes out so bluntly and leaves the church, he may lose his job. So in our private lives and social lives we've "left", but in regards to his family, we're taking it slowly and letting it sink in bit by bit with them. I feel so greatful to have the support of my husband in this journey out of the church and into freedom, and I feel for you - that you don't have your wife in this with you. I do have a suggestion.... just drop little thoughts and hints of the real truths and reasons why you left. Don't try to give too much information to your wife or kids at once. It just pushes people deeper into their "testimony", as they have to defend their beliefs. And it scares them to see that you've been reading and learning things that would lead you "to satan" or out of the church. So then they won't want to even touch any websites or books you'd like them to look at.
Anyway..........hang in there. It's better out here!

[silverfox]

I just joined and registered to this site yesterday so I am just beginning to read the various posts and other information available.

Welcome Stu!!! I know we all will look forward to your posts and getting to know you.

[Born Free]

My journey to finding more truth about the chruch started about a year ago when I just happened to read an article in the local paper about the Mountain Meadow Massacre and it listed a web site that I went to to find out more information. I became quite concerned about finding more truth about this incident and did a bit of research and discovered a huge injustice in the slaughter of many innocent men, women, and children that was carried out by a group of maybe 50 or more mormon men plus indians recruited by the mormons. I found that the church has done little to bring justice to those deserving for their part in this crime and in fact have tried very hard to cover up the facts and any church involvement in this tragedy. I have read the full confession of John D. Lee written just prior to his death by firing squad and his story certainly seems more believable than other versions that the church would have you believe. Stewart
Stewart,
I was formerly a National Service Commissioned Officer in the Australian Army, so I suspect I have some resonance with your outrage at Mountain Meadow.

Part of military training is a sense of duty, well disciplined restraint, and fair play. So to hear of deception being used to slaughter men, women and children in cold blood after they have laid down their weapons, and then leave their bodies exposed to the elements for the birds and scavengers to pick over, is deeply offensive.

Those are the acts of cowards, so when those same cowards hide behind the name of "God", then scapegoat one man, I for one want to puke. :Puking Brigham Young appears a typical bully-boy; tough when it comes to getting others to do his dirty work, but too cowardly to front to the music, and subsequent "leaders" are still covering his shameful trail.

Stewart, welcome on board. I hope you enjoy your involvement here.

Daryl

[smallone]

I just joined and registered to this site yesterday so I am just beginning to read the various posts and other information available. I consider myself post mormon even though my name is still on the church records. It has been less than a year now that I have made the change from TBM to this status. I am a third generation mormon with my parents and other 5 siblings still TBMs. I have been married for 37 years to a still TBM wife whom I love and adore dearly and 5 of my six children are still TBMs. I live now in happy valley (Orem) and have for the past near nine years. I am a retired military man. I lived my whole life and raised my family as best I could following the mormon church teachings and bringing my family up in the chruch as well. Met my wife at BYU in 1967 after returning from a mission to Northern Calif. I blindly accepted as true all that I was taught from my parents and the church and never felt the need to question much or ever delve into any forbidden anti-mormon literature. My journey to finding more truth about the chruch started about a year ago when I just happened to read an article in the local paper about the Mountain Meadow Massacre and it listed a web site that I went to to find out more information. I became quite concerned about finding more truth about this incident and did a bit of research and discovered a huge injustice in the slaughter of many innocent men, women, and children that was carried out by a group of maybe 50 or more mormon men plus indians recruited by the mormons. I found that the church has done little to bring justice to those deserving for their part in this crime and in fact have tried very hard to cover up the facts and any church involvement in this tragedy. I have read the full confession of John D. Lee written just prior to his death by firing squad and his story certainly seems more believable than other versions that the church would have you believe. Anyway, this all started me into a search of church history truth that might be different from the sanitized version I had been given from the church since my youth. And as most of you who are also now post mormon have found out, the truth in so many ways has been kept from us. It now appears evident to me that the BOM is fiction as is the BOA and that Joseph Smith was not a true prophet who received true revelation from God. So, now, despite my living in the middle of mormandom and all my family and friends being TBMs, I can not talk nor share my church concerns with anyone without it causing me undue stress. I have quit going to church now for over 6 months and the bish knows of my concerns but none other than my wife who knows them well. It is, however, very hard to talk with her much about this as it just leads to bad feelings and arguments and so we have just agreed to disgree for the time being. Thus I have turned to the internet for support from others in a similiar situation as I am in. My children may have some suspicions of problems I am having but for the most part have no idea where I am right now. All my children are out of the home now (three of them married) except my youngest who is 20. So there you have a nutshell description of me and my situation. What I do need is some support and understanding from others who feel the same way I do as it is hard to feel so alone in this journey. I do love the people in the church I know very much and admire the church for the much good it does in teaching its members to be good honest people but am now unable to accept as true many of the doctrines it teaches as they came from a false prophet. Thanks to any of you who wish to reach out in help and support for me at this time. Stewart
:) Stewart, glad to have you with us! Hang in there and take the advice to be subtle with hints-it worked for me. My husband would drop little things all the time, and it really got me to think in a way that I didn't feel so threatened. It isn't easy- it took him almost three years, but I think it was because at first he was too anxious and would try too hard, so I would get very defensive. Hang in there, you maybe joyfully suprised and relieved one day!! GOOD LUCK :)

[enlightendmolly]

Merilynn posted: I have been quite involved with the Utah County Exmos for the past several years but have recently made some huge changes in my life which involved finally escaping Utah and Utah Valley and relocating to Memphis, Tennessee. I sure miss you guys--you know that. I feel like I might have made it to the exit of the "recovery from Mormonism" maze with this move and now just want to be able to objectively look at my old life and learn from it while feeling a connection to that community that saved my sanity and helped guide me through the maze.[/I]


We miss you too Merilynn! Our ex-mo group is just not the same without you! :Crazy:

[drjolly1]

Stewart,

I've just joined this site as well after spending the better of 20 years outside the church after being raised in it, graduating from byu and serving a mission. I know how scary it can be to be torn between the love for your community and your experience of truth--whether that truth is intellectual, emotional or both. I hope this place is helpful to you in your journey. I have been completely taken with this site for a day now. It feels wonderful to have a place to express my feelings and my experiences that is safe and welcoming. The journey can be difficult but doing it alone is worse. You aren't alone anymore.
Andy

[elder_nomo]

Hi all –

My time as a mormon was relatively short, but very intense. In the space of about 6 years, I converted, was baptized, spent 2 years at BYU and 2 years on a mission. I was determined to put the T in TBM.

Ironically (or so I thought), it was on my mission where things started to unravel.
While many of my fellow mishies went to the mission field with no particular conviction and came back with burning testimonies, I went with a SURE KNOWLEDGE that the church was true, and came back disillusioned and full of doubts. Shortly after I got home, I came to the realization that it was all smoke and mirrors, lies and wishful thinking, and I had to admit it and get out.

The first year or so was very hard. I had made the church the center of my life and the bottom was dropping out. The world is so much easier when you think you know everything and have all the answers. But over time, I got used to thinking for myself (and it’s actually pretty cool – I highly recommend it!)

That was over 25 years ago.
When I happened across the PostMormon site, I was totally engrossed. I never knew there were others like me. It’s too bad this site wasn’t around way back then, but I am enjoying it now.

I’ve been reading lots of the back posts, and you all seem like a wonderfully diverse and supportive bunch. Thanks for hearing me. I never got to tell my story to anyone who really “gets it” before.

[peter_mary]

That was over 25 years ago.
When I happened across the PostMormon site, I was totally engrossed. I never knew there were others like me. It’s too bad this site wasn’t around way back then, but I am enjoying it now.

I’ve been reading lots of the back posts, and you all seem like a wonderfully diverse and supportive bunch. Thanks for hearing me. I never got to tell my story to anyone who really “gets it” before.

Dude! Better late than never. Glad you found us, and glad you said "hi!" Welcome, and we all look forward to hearing from you some more!

I'm actually curious about the number of people who became dissillusioned while on their mission. Think I'll start a new thread on that one because it seems like it happens more than I would have guessed.

Again, welcome Elder NoMo!

Paul

[miss taken]

Hi all –

My time as a mormon was relatively short, but very intense. In the space of about 6 years, I converted, was baptized, spent 2 years at BYU and 2 years on a mission. I was determined to put the T in TBM.

Ironically (or so I thought), it was on my mission where things started to unravel.
While many of my fellow mishies went to the mission field with no particular conviction and came back with burning testimonies, I went with a SURE KNOWLEDGE that the church was true, and came back disillusioned and full of doubts. Shortly after I got home, I came to the realization that it was all smoke and mirrors, lies and wishful thinking, and I had to admit it and get out.

The first year or so was very hard. I had made the church the center of my life and the bottom was dropping out. The world is so much easier when you think you know everything and have all the answers. But over time, I got used to thinking for myself (and it’s actually pretty cool – I highly recommend it!)

That was over 25 years ago.
When I happened across the PostMormon site, I was totally engrossed. I never knew there were others like me. It’s too bad this site wasn’t around way back then, but I am enjoying it now.

I’ve been reading lots of the back posts, and you all seem like a wonderfully diverse and supportive bunch. Thanks for hearing me. I never got to tell my story to anyone who really “gets it” before.

I'm there with you all the way!! Only 10 years for me not 25, but feel pretty much the same, except my Q came at college rather than on mission...
Really look forward to hearing more from you
Mary

[free thinker]

I actually had my first doubts about the church on my mission also! Twenty five years later I left! That was less than a year ago. I have never forgotten finding out, as a missionary, for the first time, that Joseph Smith had married a 14 year old girl. :( He was 39 at the time. That was in 1979. Go figure eh? I too am a convert.

Greetings and Welcome!!

Free Thinker

[silverfox]

Hi all –

My time as a mormon was relatively short, but very intense. In the space of about 6 years, I converted, was baptized, spent 2 years at BYU and 2 years on a mission. I was determined to put the T in TBM.

Ironically (or so I thought), it was on my mission where things started to unravel.
While many of my fellow mishies went to the mission field with no particular conviction and came back with burning testimonies, I went with a SURE KNOWLEDGE that the church was true, and came back disillusioned and full of doubts. Shortly after I got home, I came to the realization that it was all smoke and mirrors, lies and wishful thinking, and I had to admit it and get out.

The first year or so was very hard. I had made the church the center of my life and the bottom was dropping out. The world is so much easier when you think you know everything and have all the answers. But over time, I got used to thinking for myself (and it’s actually pretty cool – I highly recommend it!)

That was over 25 years ago.
When I happened across the PostMormon site, I was totally engrossed. I never knew there were others like me. It’s too bad this site wasn’t around way back then, but I am enjoying it now.

I’ve been reading lots of the back posts, and you all seem like a wonderfully diverse and supportive bunch. Thanks for hearing me. I never got to tell my story to anyone who really “gets it” before.

Welcome, Elder. Thanks for sharing your interesting story. I look forward to getting to know you.

[elder_nomo]

paul: i see you have started the new thread about disillusioned mishies. cool. i will post more there.
miss taken: 10 years since the great escape! you're practically a gentile again.
free thinker: we had such a similar experience, yet such different paths to get to where we are now.
silverfox: i've read so many of your posts - you are awesome. i am tickled to hear from you.
to all: thanks for the warm welcome!

[silverfox]

paul: i see you have started the new thread about disillusioned mishies. cool. i will post more there.
miss taken: 10 years since the great escape! you're practically a gentile again.
free thinker: we had such a similar experience, yet such different paths to get to where we are now.
silverfox: i've read so many of your posts - you are awesome. i am tickled to hear from you.
to all: thanks for the warm welcome!

What a sweetie! Now get your butt out there and post, baby, POST! :D

[bzcutah]

How do I get my membership fully canceled here?

I tried to get into "account", and there was no option to cancel my membership.

[bzcutah]

How do I get my membership fully canceled here?

I tried to get into "account", and there was no option to cancel my membership.


This is reminicent of leaving the LDS church. It's easy to join, difficult to leave. :(

[Jeff_Ricks]

How do I get my membership fully canceled here?

I tried to get into "account", and there was no option to cancel my membership.


You can call it censorship, but every forum needs its boundaries or all hell breaks lose. You kept pushing those boundaries and were warned more than once. No one has asked you to leave, only to stay within the boundaries. But as you wish your account will be cancelled.

Jeff

[bzcutah]

Thanks...

??

[brentos]

my name is brent. i was born into the church in california. when i was little the church was always right. my parents and my leaders at church always told me about the evil world that would crush me when i turned my back on the church. because of this i didnt have any friends. i tried to isolate myself to ensure i didnt get caught up in this world trap that church ppl warned me about.

then when i was 10 my older brother started rebelling against the church. i had always looked up to him and it was a confusing time for me to see someone that i had always wanted to be like suddenly change into something else. i tried not to think about it but that didnt work very well.

when i was 12 i did some bad things. now i realize they aren't any big deal but when i told my bishop about them he flipped out and told me i needed help and that i was hell bound unless i went to God immediately. this just made me more depressed and turned all these 1 time occurences into bad habits. i just kept getting more and more depressed and i sank lower and lower, wallowing in self-pity. i finally realized it was the church that made me feel so guilty and in turn made me so depressed. it was the guilt i got from church that drove my sin and made me come crawling back for more gospel in hope that i would get better but it just made everything worse. then i stopped going to church and everything got better. i had friends who were nice to me and i could finally talk to ppl. and all my guilt and depression went away. i was happy. and then my family moved to orem, utah when i was 14. and all the depression came back when i was surrounded by mormons once again. its been a miserable experience living here. ppl at my high school were all so tense and i couldnt stand it. they treated each other like service projects. like it was their oppurtunity to get into heaven if they could make someone smile. lots of them were incapable of forming friendships with anyone who wasn't "perfect" like them. its been 2 years now since i moved and the only thing that keeps me sane is a couple non-mormon ppl that i can talk to at school. for all of the ppl on this board that grew up here i dont know how you did it.

right now im just at a confusing time in my life. since i moved here i just go back and forth. a couple months of belief. a couple months of hate. and then back again. theres so many bad ppl in my ward and then tonight i just snapped on the phone with my bishop. i was talking on behalf of my younger brother who had been lied to about church stuff. i was so angry i remembered this place that i heard of from my older brother a long time ago.

im so sick of Utah i just spend all my time on schoolwork so i can graduate early and leave this place. i originally wanted to go to college back in california or anywhere but here for that matter but it didnt work out for my financial situation. i have to go to byu starting in the fall cuz its the only place thatll accept me right now and the only place my parents will pay for. (there wouldn't happen to be any post-mormon scholarships?, haha) i hope its better there than at my high school, maybe theyll be other ppl like me but i dont know how it could be so different being only 10 miles down the road now. im so confused right now about everything. i like parts of the gospel, but theres just so many horrible ppl in the church. ive been reading for the past couple hours about child molestors in the church. i had no idea there were so many. it makes sense now though. its hard to write this. after so many years of being warned against this kind of thing i feel like a traitor or something like it. its depressing to think that if the church isnt true that ive belonged to some kind of cult for all my life. im half-expecting to get struck by lightning any moment like i was taught would happen. reading this board though has been comforting though. ppl here seem very nice and not so resentful of new ideas like ppl in the church are. i just wish there was some way to take back all the time i wasted going to church. thank you to all of you for helping me make some sense of my feelings.

sorry for writing so much. i used to keep a journal but then my parents started reading it and making me feel bad about stuff i wrote down. it feels good to write again but weird too.
-Brent

[brentos]

maybe someone here can answer me without saying "you're not ready"

what really goes on in the temple today? some ppl have kind of hinted that theres weird clothes that u wear, different from garments. and ppl call it masonic? is that a bad thing? what does that mean?

and what are the blood oaths that ppl are referring to? is that some unrecorded early church history?
-Brent

[silverfox]

maybe someone here can answer me without saying "you're not ready"

what really goes on in the temple today? some ppl have kind of hinted that theres weird clothes that u wear, different from garments. and ppl call it masonic? is that a bad thing? what does that mean?

and what are the blood oaths that ppl are referring to? is that some unrecorded early church history?
-Brent

Hi, brentos, and welcome!

Check out this link to read about blood oaths. (there are many other links as well - if you are interested I will find them)

http://trialsofascension.net/mormon.html (blood atonement is #10 on the left)

Check out these links for temple ordinance details.
http://www.lds-mormon.com/veilworker/endowment.shtml

This one has word for word detail of temple ordinances:
http://davidb.mystarband.net/Endowment.html

I understand the initiatory part of the temple ordinance has recently changed. It used to be a person stood nude under the shield but now I understand you wear a garment under the shield and temple workers only touch your forehead and not other parts of your body. I haven't seen this first hand (and never will, whew) but I have heard about it.

[formermormon]

Hey all. This site has been pretty amazing. I left the church officially some years ago (feminist, free-thinker). I haven't thought that much about it for a while (well, except when visiting family), until I read a NYT story on religious blogs.

But, I am now running a little ex-mormon t-shirt site called "former mormon emporium". I have "apostate" hats and shirts, and other such mormon insider goodies. Check it out if you like:
http://www.cafepress.com/formermormon

If that annoys you, sorry, please ignore the last paragraph. In any case, it's nice to have the internet to bounce ideas around with other ex-mos.

[silverfox]

Hey all. This site has been pretty amazing. I left the church officially some years ago (feminist, free-thinker). I haven't thought that much about it for a while (well, except when visiting family), until I read a NYT story on religious blogs.

But, I am now running a little ex-mormon t-shirt site called "former mormon emporium". I have "apostate" hats and shirts, and other such mormon insider goodies. Check it out if you like:
http://www.cafepress.com/formermormon

If that annoys you, sorry, please ignore the last paragraph. In any case, it's nice to have the internet to bounce ideas around with other ex-mos.

Hey I quite like the Apostate spaghetti strap shirt. I believe I may have to have one of those! For family parties and such, you know, with all the TBMs

[formermormon]

Hey I quite like the Apostate spaghetti strap shirt. I believe I may have to have one of those! For family parties and such, you know, with all the TBMs

Thanks - glad you like them. I had fun making cheeky stuff. It was cathartic - and good for family visits! :D

[free thinker]

Hey all. This site has been pretty amazing. I left the church officially some years ago (feminist, free-thinker). I haven't thought that much about it for a while (well, except when visiting family), until I read a NYT story on religious blogs.

But, I am now running a little ex-mormon t-shirt site called "former mormon emporium". I have "apostate" hats and shirts, and other such mormon insider goodies. Check it out if you like:
http://www.cafepress.com/formermormon

If that annoys you, sorry, please ignore the last paragraph. In any case, it's nice to have the internet to bounce ideas around with other ex-mos.

Do you have any apostate golf wear? I really like the stuff. Gonna keep it in mind!

Free Thinker

[formermormon]

Do you have any apostate golf wear? I really like the stuff. Gonna keep it in mind!

Free Thinker

Free thinker-

Um, well, yeah, if you count a "golf shirt". It's white and delightsome. (OK, that one was bad). I don't want you getting beaned with a "slice" from some other party - are you golfing in the beehive state?

-formermormon

[megawatts]

NOTE - THIS THREAD IS NO LONGER "STUCK" AT THE TOP OF THE FORUM DUE TO LOW RESPONSES.
NEW MEMBERS, PLEASE FEEL FREE TO INTRODUCE YOURSELVES BY RESPONDING TO THIS THREAD (WHICH WILL FORCE IT TO THE FIRST PAGE OF THREADS) OR BY CREATING A NEW THREAD.
THANKS!! SILVER FOX


I have been reading on this site for quite some time and started to actually say something every once in awhile :) I was raised LDS along with my five siblings. We got up everymorning for prayer and scripture study most of my life. Church was a big deal and we went very regularly. I have a long history of church members on one side and was always so proud that they were part of the pioneers. I was active until I was 16 and then I wasn't as enthralled with the church. I had some hard life experiences about that time and also got my license so I could escape Sunday school :D
I realized early on that I did not want to marry an LDS man and so married a very nice boy who was no religion at the age of 19. Of course, once we were married I began trying to get him to join so that my family would be happy and all the people that thought he was such a nice guy and would make such a great mormon would be happy.
Long story shorter, I was never active again although I tried off and on for years. It wasn't until my sister came out as gay to our family that I began questioning the church. She had tried so hard to be a good member and couldn't live the lie anymore. I watched her very painful excommunication (because she dared enter into a civil union with her partner) and how torn up she was over it. It was then that I truly began to feel anger at the church and started reading church things trying to find out what the stand on homosexuality even was. The more I read the worse it got, I wonder does anyone even read this stuff? It was from their own church sanctioned books UGH.
About two years ago I decided that I would NEVER return to the church or any other church for that matter. I have some siblings and parents still very active and it has been difficult, but I have never been happier. This is the first place that has acknowledged that you can leave the church and be happy. Not because we are too stoned or drunk to recognize our misery ;) but because you can leave the mormon church and still lead a happy life.
I could go on for pages and pages. It isn't a spectacular story but it ends happily :) I have loved to read your postings and for the first time in a very long time don't feel alone. I live in Utah among VERY mormon, VERY judgemental people. They know I am inactive but do not know I will never be back to the fold. I did have to tell one lady that it wasn't the people that had offended me but the doctorine that kept me away. Why does everyone assume it is an offense from members?
Whew, done for now. Thanks for the welcome and great reading. This is a great place to be.

[helemon]

Why does everyone assume it is an offense from members?


Because the doctrine is perfect, so it can't be because of that! :duh

Welcome! Glad to have you here!

[peter_mary]

I have been reading on this site for quite some time and started to actually say something every once in awhile :) I was raised LDS along with my five siblings. We got up everymorning for prayer and scripture study most of my life. Church was a big deal and we went very regularly. I have a long history of church members on one side and was always so proud that they were part of the pioneers. I was active until I was 16 and then I wasn't as enthralled with the church. I had some hard life experiences about that time and also got my license so I could escape Sunday school :D
I realized early on that I did not want to marry an LDS man and so married a very nice boy who was no religion at the age of 19. Of course, once we were married I began trying to get him to join so that my family would be happy and all the people that thought he was such a nice guy and would make such a great mormon would be happy.
Long story shorter, I was never active again although I tried off and on for years. It wasn't until my sister came out as gay to our family that I began questioning the church. She had tried so hard to be a good member and couldn't live the lie anymore. I watched her very painful excommunication (because she dared enter into a civil union with her partner) and how torn up she was over it. It was then that I truly began to feel anger at the church and started reading church things trying to find out what the stand on homosexuality even was. The more I read the worse it got, I wonder does anyone even read this stuff? It was from their own church sanctioned books UGH.
About two years ago I decided that I would NEVER return to the church or any other church for that matter. I have some siblings and parents still very active and it has been difficult, but I have never been happier. This is the first place that has acknowledged that you can leave the church and be happy. Not because we are too stoned or drunk to recognize our misery ;) but because you can leave the mormon church and still lead a happy life.
I could go on for pages and pages. It isn't a spectacular story but it ends happily :) I have loved to read your postings and for the first time in a very long time don't feel alone. I live in Utah among VERY mormon, VERY judgemental people. They know I am inactive but do not know I will never be back to the fold. I did have to tell one lady that it wasn't the people that had offended me but the doctorine that kept me away. Why does everyone assume it is an offense from members?
Whew, done for now. Thanks for the welcome and great reading. This is a great place to be. Thanks, megawatts, for reviving this thread and telling us a little bit about yourself!

[Born Free]

How come this thread is a not a Sticky?

Seems this is where ideally newcomers would introduce themselves, so there is a case for it being amongst the first seen upon arrival.

Daryl

[miss taken]

I agree Daryl, this was the thread that I think I first had the guts to respond to. Maybe it got too long..

But I am happy to keep bumping it up to the top in the meantime!!!

:)

[silverfox]

I actually "unstuck" it when it became dormant for a few months. I will "stick" it again and we will see what happens.

[silverfox]

Hey, fellow mods,

Can you stick this thread? My sticky powers don't seem to be working tonight.

[helemon]

Hey, fellow mods,

Can you stick this thread? My sticky powers don't seem to be working tonight.

Holy Kryptonite Batman, my powers have been zapped as well. Jeff must have flipped a wrong switch somewhere.

[lunaverse]

My thread tools button doesn't work anymore either. Jeff? JEFF?!

:)

Luna

[silverfox]

I have contacted Jeff. He won't be online for a while and hopefully can look into it later tonight or tomorrow. He tried fixing it last night but no luck.

[schmaela]

Hello everyone, my name is Micaela and I'm married to a former Mormon. You all know him as Nate. I've been lurking for a while, and thought it was about time for me to actually register and introduce myself.

I am not/never have been Mormon. I was baptized as a catholic, but never really went to church. No communion. No confirmation. Marrying into a "super mormon" family has been quite a shock. Trying to wrap my (very logical) brain around most of the teachings of the church is very hard for me. I feel as though I can never ever fully understand the impact the church and its teachings have had on Nate. That is why I have lurked around here for around a year-It helps me to understand why Nate feels the way he does about things.

Since Nate has introduced me to this community I have learned many things: what peepstones are, why Mormons wear silly underpants, that Joseph Smith would make a teriffic used car salesman, etc. I do have one suggestion-there should be a Mormon to English dictionary. Mormon terms are harder for the uninitiated to understand than the latest 50 cent album :Crazy:

Thanks for being around to help my hubby cope, and I look foward to conversing with you all.

Micaela


~please excuse any portions of this and any future posts that make no sense whatsoever. I am suffering from Mommybrain and it isn't pretty :o

[Born Free]

Hello everyone, my name is Micaela and I'm married to a former Mormon. You all know him as Nate. I've been lurking for a while, and thought it was about time for me to actually register and introduce myself.

I am not/never have been Mormon. I was baptized as a catholic, but never really went to church. No communion. No confirmation. Marrying into a "super mormon" family has been quite a shock. Trying to wrap my (very logical) brain around most of the teachings of the church is very hard for me. I feel as though I can never ever fully understand the impact the church and its teachings have had on Nate. That is why I have lurked around here for around a year-It helps me to understand why Nate feels the way he does about things.

Since Nate has introduced me to this community I have learned many things: what peepstones are, why Mormons wear silly underpants, that Joseph Smith would make a teriffic used car salesman, etc. I do have one suggestion-there should be a Mormon to English dictionary. Mormon terms are harder for the uninitiated to understand than the latest 50 cent album.

Thanks for being around to help my hubby cope, and I look foward to conversing with you all.

Micaela


~please excuse any portions of this and any future posts that make no sense whatsoever. I am suffering from Mommybrain and it isn't pretty :o

Schmaela,

Welcome from the Australian contingent (all 1 of us).

I can only guess at how crazy this stuff looks from the outside. :eek: :Crazy: Even between my wife and myself, we process our (common Mo) experience very differently. My wife appears to have left it behind better than I have, but that may be more apparent than real.

Congratultiona on the new addition to the house. Nate sounds very taken up by the new arrival. Processing arrivals and departures in quick succession can sure make the head spin a little, so he has been through a lot.

Your suggestion on an interpretor sounds interesting. Of course we are largely blind to what words or concepts just cause others to say 'What was that all about?' (aka WTF depending upon which side of town you're from).

You might have to start that list, of the incomprehensibles.

Once again welcome, now that you have emerged. I hope your stay is long and useful.

Daryl

[silverfox]

Hello everyone, my name is Micaela and I'm married to a former Mormon. You all know him as Nate. I've been lurking for a while, and thought it was about time for me to actually register and introduce myself.

I am not/never have been Mormon. I was baptized as a catholic, but never really went to church. No communion. No confirmation. Marrying into a "super mormon" family has been quite a shock. Trying to wrap my (very logical) brain around most of the teachings of the church is very hard for me. I feel as though I can never ever fully understand the impact the church and its teachings have had on Nate. That is why I have lurked around here for around a year-It helps me to understand why Nate feels the way he does about things.

Since Nate has introduced me to this community I have learned many things: what peepstones are, why Mormons wear silly underpants, that Joseph Smith would make a teriffic used car salesman, etc. I do have one suggestion-there should be a Mormon to English dictionary. Mormon terms are harder for the uninitiated to understand than the latest 50 cent album :Crazy:

Thanks for being around to help my hubby cope, and I look foward to conversing with you all.

Micaela


~please excuse any portions of this and any future posts that make no sense whatsoever. I am suffering from Mommybrain and it isn't pretty :o

Welcome to Post Mo. I can't begin to imagine what it must be as a nevermo marrying into a very Mo family. ARGH! That Mormon to English idea is great. Maybe some of us can dig something up.

[peter_mary]

Hello everyone, my name is Micaela and I'm married to a former Mormon. You all know him as Nate. I've been lurking for a while, and thought it was about time for me to actually register and introduce myself.

I am not/never have been Mormon. I was baptized as a catholic, but never really went to church. No communion. No confirmation. Marrying into a "super mormon" family has been quite a shock. Trying to wrap my (very logical) brain around most of the teachings of the church is very hard for me. I feel as though I can never ever fully understand the impact the church and its teachings have had on Nate. That is why I have lurked around here for around a year-It helps me to understand why Nate feels the way he does about things.

Since Nate has introduced me to this community I have learned many things: what peepstones are, why Mormons wear silly underpants, that Joseph Smith would make a teriffic used car salesman, etc. I do have one suggestion-there should be a Mormon to English dictionary. Mormon terms are harder for the uninitiated to understand than the latest 50 cent album :Crazy:

Thanks for being around to help my hubby cope, and I look foward to conversing with you all.

Micaela


~please excuse any portions of this and any future posts that make no sense whatsoever. I am suffering from Mommybrain and it isn't pretty :o
Micaela,

Welcome! It's been great having Nate around, and it's nice to hear from you, too.

Love the suggestion for cross-cultural translator. What we need is a...

...wait for it...

...Peep Stone!

Of course! :duh

Start the list, and the staff at Peep Stone will be happy to provide snappy, smart (-assed) definitions and translations for words and phrases that are 0h-so-Mormon.

Dogzilla started one a while ago with me, but we never got back to it. I'd love to have words and phrases suggested here by folks like Micaela (or anyone!) that we can just respond to...it's easier to be sarcastic/satirical that way!

Glad to see you around! :)

[miss taken]

Micaela, Hi. Nate's great! You have good taste!!!

A very warm welcome from a member of the UK contingent!!

(my husband is a nevermo, and finds the whole thing incredibly bizzarre, but understands my love of the more ethereal aspects of life)

[schmaela]

Thanks for the welcome! I will start compiling a list of things that definitely need a translation. The very first thing I asked about was the peep stone thing. I think my actual question went like this: "honey, what the hell is a peep stone?!?" after Nate answered me, it went like this: "Are you joking?!?". The more I learn about the whole Mormon culture/religion the more I use exclamation points and question marks together ;)

[nate]

Thanks for the welcome! I will start compiling a list of things that definitely need a translation. The very first thing I asked about was the peep stone thing. I think my actual question went like this: "honey, what the hell is a peep stone?!?" after Nate answered me, it went like this: "Are you joking?!?". The more I learn about the whole Mormon culture/religion the more I use exclamation points and question marks together ;)

Hey Babe!
(how cool is THAT! I can come to this site and talk to my honey)

Born Free (you know, the crazy aussie :D) just posted this on another thread. I had forgot about it. Won't help with things like Kolob and Blood Oath, but it will help with the abbreviations.

http://www.postmormon.org/forum_vb/showthread.php?t=130

Nate

[Born Free]

Hey Babe!
(how cool is THAT! I can come to this site and talk to my honey)

Born Free (you know, the crazy aussie :D) just posted this on another thread. I had forgot about it. Won't help with things like Kolob and Blood Oath, but it will help with the abbreviations.

http://www.postmormon.org/forum_vb/showthread.php?t=130

Nate
Nate,

I hope the mother of your child is not in the next room and you two are communicating via PostMo!!!!! :eek: :eek:

At least I am at the other end of the planet! :duh

Daryl

[dogzilla]

Schmaela! Welcome!

One English to Postmo Dictionary thread... Comin' right up!

(I started it for you, ya know!)

[elder_nomo]

Thanks for the welcome! I will start compiling a list of things that definitely need a translation. The very first thing I asked about was the peep stone thing. I think my actual question went like this: "honey, what the hell is a peep stone?!?" after Nate answered me, it went like this: "Are you joking?!?". The more I learn about the whole Mormon culture/religion the more I use exclamation points and question marks together ;)
Welcome Schmaela !
I think the more you learn, the more you will find that exclamation points and question marks just won't be enough. I've had some never-mo friends who think I'm making this stuff up because it's just too ridiculous and outrageous.
BTW, your hubby is :cool: Glad you're here with him.

[miss taken]

Micaela, you have given me this idea. My hubby on occassion (when he isn't working his butt off on his own computer designing this and that), gets miffed with me for chatting about issues LDS on the internet.

I would love him to sign up. Maybe he will. He's agnostic atheist and prefers to live life rather than discuss religion, but I think his perspective would be great on here and since I like this place (and others) so much, it would be great if he could join in on occassion!

I can only ask!!

Mary

[sterry]

I am sure my story isn't too different from all of yours, still it changed my life forever so I might as well share. I was born into the church, but I was pretty much the only one in the family who was active. My mother would sometimes come to church with me, and she read the BoM several times, mostly because she is a smarty pants who likes to do things thouroughly. She always had the attitude that the church is a social thing and you participate so you can fit in with everyone around you. My dad was a smoker, who quit just long enough to go through the temple with my mom and then started back up again. Nevertheless, he never took off his garments, and I have realized now from my new perspective that he is scared as hell of going to hell. I won't go into the details, but family life was not wonderful in my childhood years, and from my youthful viewpoint I attributed it to the fact that all of my family were sinners and it was causing our dischord. So I submerged myself into the church and its teachings thinking it would prevent me from falling into a similar fate in my adult years.

So, when I moved up to Logan to go to USU, I was shocked at how different these Mormons were from the ones I grew up with in good old happy valley. (I maintain that Idaho Mormons are the worst of the lot.) I thought I was as religious as you could get, then I met people who ate, slept and drank Mormon doctrine. I was suddenly in the position of being the sinner, though I still don't know why. I had one roommate even send the missionaries to talk to me, and I was reading my BoM every night!

Change started happening for me though when I started to question how I could have joy in my life, I was in that miserable stage between the teenage years and young adult and wanted to figure some things out. I decided that I wanted to develop my own relationship with God, because I didn't really feel he loved me like everyone else was talking about. I, of course, went to the scriptures and to church and prayed and prayed. I even considered going on a mission. But things just seemed to get darker in my life instead of brighter. After a couple of years of this I was sitting one day in a F&T meeting and remember a thought passing through my head that God just wasn't there that day, not in a devil bad kind of way, just not present. No sooner had I thought this then a nice little bow girl stood up and stated that she felt the spirit so strongly there that day. I physically reacted to this, a shutter went up my spine and my stomach turned. My friend turned to me then and said "lets get out of here" and I said absolutely and left. I think that is the day my spirit decided to leave the church. I spent the next couple of years saying the good ol' "I believe in the gosple its just the people that are flawed" line, but my heart was no longer in the church.

Then one day an old roommate of mine called and was quite distressed. Keep in mind that she was one of the ones who was concerned about living with me because she thought I wasn't righteous enough because I wore a tank top when I met her. My first impression of her was concern over a stack of what I thought were BoMs she had in the apartment. I later learned these were a full set of Journal of Discourses she was given when she joined the church and which later caused her to leave. And that day when she called she shared with me all the info she had uncovered about the church. She even introduced me to a lady probably some of you know, though I can't remember her name, who had even more information.

After I came back with my packet of non-mormon pamphlets, I was quite distressed. This actually came as a shock to me. I realized that a good part of my identity was tied up in being a Mormon, and I truly didn't know who I was without that title, nor how I would fit in. Luckily, by the end of the day I made a decision that I would continue to seek a relationship with God and let the rest work itself out. The very next day as I was reading my Gary Zukav book, which I had been enjoying but not really getting, I read a paragraph that made all the difference in the world. Basically it stated that we live in a loving and friendly universe. For some reason that idea changed my life path forever. I decided then that I was no longer LDS and have never looked back.

It has now been seven years since that incident, and I feel like a completely different person. So much so that when I hear common phrases I used to say myself, I look at the speaker with confusion and wonder why they could possibly think that way. I continue my spiritual journey and feel closer to God then I ever could conceive of in the Mormon church, though that is a whole 'nother story. I am currently feeling the desire in my life to help others who have decided to leave get through some of those nasty feelings that can come when you find your belief system was just an illusion. That is a huge goal, so I am still working on it.

And that is my story in a nutshell, hope I didn't go on too long.

[Born Free]

<snip>

And that is my story in a nutshell, hope I didn't go on too long.

Welcome sterry,

I haven't seen a same old story yet. They are all different in some way.

Thanks for introducing yourself.

Daryl

[frauline]

I have posted a few times but haven't done the official introduction.

My parents converted when I was 3. The neighbors tried to "Save us" by telling my mom all of the "lies the devil puts out there." When she made the decision for the family that we all join - there went all my neighborhood friends! I grew up lonely, my only close friends came from my ward and then stake as I grew into YW's. I was so good at being a mormon! I was the angel child who was pointed out as the example for all of the younger girls to follow. I was told on more than one occasion that I would make a great Bishop's wife.

blah blah blah, years pass. I go to BYU and have a great time. Met my hubby 2 weeks after he gets home from his mission during my sophomore year and within 6 months, we were married.

Going through the temple for the first time was so ANTI-CLIMATIC! But we went 3 times a week all summer in hopes I would catch a glimpse of the Spirit and understand something there. Just anything would have been nice!

We specifically chose to move to New England, after graduation, where the church is small so we could help struggling wards. We were put to good use right away. My husband became EQP, then I became Primary Pres.

I always had hope that I didn't understand because I wasn't mature enough in the gospel and as I am mentored by those more experienced than I, then all of my questions would be resolved enough for me to have peace. UNFORTUNATELY, as I started attending ward council, I realized they were all working on hope and faith too - not much inspiration and happiness going on in ward managemant.

We still endured and tried not to think about our issues. We gladly told people we were mormons when neighbors and business associates passed the booze around.

We started reading Grant Palmer's book around our 8th temple wedding anniversary in hopes he had some way of resolving touchy subjects without shattering our all ready fragile testimonies. WRONG! We were probably 2 chapters into it when we decided it was time for a reality check - if it looks like a raisin but smells like poo - it is probably poo. (analogy inspired by my potty training kid).

My husband quickly found support groups and websites like this to help us transition. Losing our faith is a big enough blow to us that we aren't rushing into having our names removed. We fill our Sundays with Six Flags - dedicated to being rebaptized in the wave pool!

We are quite disappointed that our trust in the church was so abused. :slap:

[nate]

Welcome Sterry and Frauline!

Nate

[elder_nomo]

I am currently feeling the desire in my life to help others who have decided to leave get through some of those nasty feelings that can come when you find your belief system was just an illusion. That is a huge goal, so I am still working on it.

Hi Sterry -
Your goal has probably been at least partially reached by sharing your story here as you did. Thanks and welcome.

[elder_nomo]

Going through the temple for the first time was so ANTI-CLIMATIC! But we went 3 times a week all summer in hopes I would catch a glimpse of the Spirit and understand something there. Just anything would have been nice!

Sadly, it's a bit like staying up all night on Christmas Eve hoping to catch a glimpse of Santa.
Thanks for your story, Frauline, and welcome to post-mo.

[peter_mary]

...it was time for a reality check - if it looks like a raisin but smells like poo - it is probably poo...


Frauline! I've enjoyed reading your posts, especially this one where you tell us a bit about your exodus.

But that line above! That just makes me laugh! That should be your PostMo signature!!! :D

Welcome!

[runfromsafety]

I might as well add my story to the list... perhaps it might be interesting for some of you to see that here in Australia we face the same issues, and pay the same kind of price. The hard part for me was that I pretty much had to do it alone. So here is the short version....

I joined the Church at 22 years old (I'm 48 now) after having moved to a new city (Perth) after a year in Rochester NY. I knew nobody and was found soon after by the missionaries - a week later I joined the Church. A short while afterwards in YSA I met my future wife and within a year we were married. We followed the script precisely for many years... We had four beautiful children, I served in many positions including elders quorum president, high council (several times), high priest group leader, stake mission president, institute teacher, seminary teacher, regional public affairs director, bishop, stake clerk etc etc

About 7 years ago whilst struggling under the weight of church callings and all the things we were commanded to do, I started questioning the theological basis for the mass of programs, rules and responsibilities we have in the Church. As I started doing some of my own research one door opened after another in terms of seeing historical and doctrinal issues which called into serious question many things – a path many others have trod as you all well know. I felt driven to learn the real truth... not so as to justify leaving the church, but in fact the complete opposite – I truly wanted my Church to be true, but I was not prepared to be the ostrich with his head in the sand on anything. Despite Signature Books initially being unwilling to ship to Australia, eventually I convinced them to do so (if I accepted all responsibiliy for anything going missing in the post), and I became one of their best customers, buying just about everything of a historical or doctrinal nature they had printed. I was excited at every turn to see true scholars, LDS and non-LDS, with no hidden agenda openly and honestly exploring church origins, doctrine and history - such a contrast to the "anti mormon literature" I had seen many times in my Church life, and which I dismissed due to it's obvious bias (also of course, because it was an act of apostacy to even look at such material). I read and reread everything thoroughly in my “crusade” to get at the truth. The hard part was having to do it alone... The Church has a big advantage (or disadvantage from my standpoint) in Australia in that even though a very developed country it is very isolated from the new mormon history issues and other problems, with almost all members knowing nothing of any of this.

Fairly early on this path I felt I needed to talk to my wife, who is about as TBM as they come. Our family was seen by most as one of the stalwart church families. When I tried to talk to her about this (I think initially the conversation was about the Book of Abraham issues), the barriers went up like I never would have believed possible. She was captured by fear... fear of not wanting to hear anything outside of the square (conditioned to believe it was a transgression to do this), fear of loss of our eternal marriage, fear of the effect on our kids, fear of what other people would think... fear, fear and more fear. Communication was impossible, I learned that in order to preserve family harmony I had to keep quiet and grapple with these issues alone. I went to my Stake President (I was on the High Council at the time) and had many discussions with him, and even though he was very open and supportive of my trials, in the final analysis he had no understanding of what I was really facing and the old standard advice of “go away and pray about it” was about as far as it could ever go.

I battled with this for years, all the while dutifully fulfilling my church calling. I spoke to a couple of people in the USA, and remember feeling incredulous when Ed Gardiner told me to be prepared to lose my family, as he did. This would prove to be prophetic. I was honest in my temple recommend interviews and despite fundamental testimony issues was still always given my recommend. I ran some very well attended Church history firesides, introducing members to things they had never heard before, but being careful not to get into the “faith damaging” material. My wife was always a bit nervous though about what I was going to say. Deep down I hoped that I could get a few others to realise there was a lot more out there than they read in official church publications. One or two others did come to me with their own questions and concerns, but I never openly expressed my views to others – I had promised my Stake President I would not do this. I sent one of my sons away on a mission, saw my daughter married in the temple to the son of a general authority and superficially all looked well. I found that for most members and church leadership as long as everything “looks” well people are happy to not look any deeper. My wife included. My self esteem and feelings about my own personal integrity were badly damaged though, because I knew I was living a double life. My already strained relationship with my wife deteriorated to breaking point and eventually we separated irreconcilably - neither of us wanted counselling or to try again. My son was still on his mission at the time and explaining all this to my children was the hardest thing imaginable.

Initially my gut response was to turn as far away from my old life as possible. I started a relationship with another woman, stopped my mormon history research and turned away from the Church as far as I could. This caused a lot of pain with my family and eventually I realised that I was not as together and free of past baggage as I thought I was. The new relationship ended after only a few months and I returned to a more level path through life. I had to work incredibly hard on my personal integrity and self respect as I found that the hits that these had taken through my church issues extended into other areas without me even realising it. I undertook a personal coaching program which was outstanding and it was that which finally helped me to the point where I felt good about myself again, living a life of integrity, open and honest enquiry, and being totally straight with my children about where I was at Church wise.

During this time I had to endure endless gossip, half truths and innuendo being spread around the stake (and in fact the whole country) about me and the “real” reasons for our marriage break up, how I had “left her destitute” and so forth. These things were very hurtful, even though my wife was not the one to spread them. Many people in the Church who I had considered friends proved not to be, and judgemental attitudes prevailed. I could see little of what the Saviour taught in the way church members behaved.

Eventually my wife and I formally divorced, and whilst my relationship with my children suffered a lot during all the turmoil of the time, eventually it emerged fairly intact albeit a bit bruised around the edges. Even today there is still more work to be done, but it is on the right track. I have only one month ago seen my youngest son head off on his mission, after he spent the three months prior to his departure living with me. It was wonderful to have that time with him and we have a really good relationship. He was quite accepting of his Dad enjoying a good cup of coffee and the occassional drink because he knew I was being straight and open with him. Despite what we might fear in others responses, ultimately there is nobody, particularly family, who can fault you for being true to how you feel and what you believe. There are of course plenty who are willing to give it a go though!

Four months ago I remarried to a beautiful person, also LDS, who has been though similar issues as me and we are totally united in working our way forward through Church issues and the broader questions relating to spirituality. We read and study together cherishing the spiritual aspect of our lives but being willing to settle for nothing less than truth and honesty in all things. My self respect and feeling of personal integrity have returned and the future feels bright.

Cheers,
Colin

[silverfox]

Welcome, Colin and thanks for sharing your story. Hope to hear more from you.

[Born Free]

I might as well add my story to the list... perhaps it might be interesting for some of you to see that here in Australia we face the same issues, and pay the same kind of price. The hard part for me was that I pretty much had to do it alone. So here is the short version....

<snip>
I battled with this for years, all the while dutifully fulfilling my church calling. I spoke to a couple of people in the USA, and remember feeling incredulous when Ed Gardiner told me to be prepared to lose my family, as he did. This would prove to be prophetic. I was honest in my temple recommend interviews and despite fundamental testimony issues was still always given my recommend. I ran some very well attended Church history firesides, introducing members to things they had never heard before, but being careful not to get into the “faith damaging” material. My wife was always a bit nervous though about what I was going to say. Deep down I hoped that I could get a few others to realise there was a lot more out there than they read in official church publications. One or two others did come to me with their own questions and concerns, but I never openly expressed my views to others – I had promised my Stake President I would not do this.

<snip>

Initially my gut response was to turn as far away from my old life as possible. I started a relationship with another woman, stopped my mormon history research and turned away from the Church as far as I could. This caused a lot of pain with my family and eventually I realised that I was not as together and free of past baggage as I thought I was. The new relationship ended after only a few months and I returned to a more level path through life. I had to work incredibly hard on my personal integrity and self respect as I found that the hits that these had taken through my church issues extended into other areas without me even realising it. I undertook a personal coaching program which was outstanding and it was that which finally helped me to the point where I felt good about myself again, living a life of integrity, open and honest enquiry, and being totally straight with my children about where I was at Church wise.

<snip>

Four months ago I remarried to a beautiful person, also LDS, who has been though similar issues as me and we are totally united in working our way forward through Church issues and the broader questions relating to spirituality. We read and study together cherishing the spiritual aspect of our lives but being willing to settle for nothing less than truth and honesty in all things. My self respect and feeling of personal integrity have returned and the future feels bright.

Cheers,
Colin
Colin,

I have highlighted a few sections of your introduction that stand out for me.

The extent of the toxicity of trying to stay sane while holding all that together is easy to overlook, whilst in there.

I am always fascinated by remarks by TBMs like, 'You can leave the Church, but you can't leave the Church alone'. In their smug and vigorously self-censored stance, they have not the slightest clue as to the damage they are inflicting on their own self esteem. Little wonder, that when some see the extent of the number that has been done on them, that they become angry to the point of abusive.

Colin, you brought a level of studiousness to this exercise that few people can match, and the Church is the poorer for you having walked. (Guys, I have seen just a fraction of Colin's library, and I have got to say, it is impressive)

I hope we can play some small part in 'Gathering up in the latter days in this corner of the vineyard of a select group of (ex) Saints, to effect healing, spread the word that MoInc makes first class fertiliser, and reclaim and expand our spirituality'.

Daryl

[runfromsafety]

Colin,

I have highlighted a few sections of your introduction that stand out for me.

The extent of the toxicity of trying to stay sane while holding all that together is easy to overlook, whilst in there.

I am always fascinated by remarks by TBMs like, 'You can leave the Church, but you can't leave the Church alone'. In their smug and vigorously self-censored stance, they have not the slightest clue as to the damage they are inflicting on their own self esteem. Little wonder, that when some see the extent of the number that has been done on them, that they become angry to the point of abusive.

Colin, you brought a level of studiousness to this exercise that few people can match, and the Church is the poorer for you having walked. (Guys, I have seen just a fraction of Colin's library, and I have got to say, it is impressive)

I hope we can play some small part in 'Gathering up in the latter days in this corner of the vineyard of a select group of (ex) Saints, to effect healing, spread the word that MoInc makes first class fertiliser, and reclaim and expand our spirituality'.

Daryl


Thanks for your comments Daryl... in highlighting the bit I said about personal integrity, and in particular the part about these issues extending beyond the Church issues you hit on one of the major issues I had to face.

It was an absolute shock to me to realise that the double life I led and lying to preserve the "all is well in zion" illusion became a habit and flowed through to other areas of my life. I had naively thought that once I left and the illusion was no longer necessary everything would return to normal and I'd have my life back.

It was a terrible admission to make to myself that the patterns thus formed affected my business and other personal dealings unrelated to church issues. Reclaiming my personal integrity has been one of the most fantastic things about facing these issues head on, taking responsibility for my own actions and rebuilding a life where truth and integrity take a back seat to nothing and nobody. I learnt a lot of hard lessons along the way, but all of them worth it.

Fortunately along the way in meeting my second wife, I found myself with someone who lived these values as well as I have ever seen another human being do, and equally importantly would accept nothing less in her partner. I owe a lot to her, and we have IMHO the best marriage any two people could have.

Cheers,
Colin

[Born Free]

Thanks for your comments Daryl... in highlighting the bit I said about personal integrity, and in particular the part about these issues extending beyond the Church issues you hit on one of the major issues I had to face.

It was an absolute shock to me to realise that the double life I led and lying to preserve the "all is well in zion" illusion became a habit and flowed through to other areas of my life. I had naively thought that once I left and the illusion was no longer necessary everything would return to normal and I'd have my life back.

It was a terrible admission to make to myself that the patterns thus formed affected my business and other personal dealings unrelated to church issues. Reclaiming my personal integrity has been one of the most fantastic things about facing these issues head on, taking responsibility for my own actions and rebuilding a life where truth and integrity take a back seat to nothing and nobody. I learnt a lot of hard lessons along the way, but all of them worth it.

Fortunately along the way in meeting my second wife, I found myself with someone who lived these values as well as I have ever seen another human being do, and equally importantly would accept nothing less in her partner. I owe a lot to her, and we have IMHO the best marriage any two people could have.

Cheers,
Colin
Colin,

I have remarked here before that dissociation can't be tidily quaranteened to one segment of our lives. It has this nasty habit of leaking.

I too was impacted by that.

Daryl

[kilia]

I'm a 65 year old married woman , born and raised Catholic who joined the Mormon church when I was 36 years old. I lived in So. Calif at the time and was searching for a church that I could really relate to.

I remember going to the public library where I saw the BOM and other discources books (cant remember now exactly what the titles are- sorry)...anyways, I read the books and decided that the LDS church was the way to go as I had a little 3 year old child and wanted some spiritual stability in our lives.

As the years went by, and more studying on my part, I realized that some of the things that the LDS church told as gospel were not true. I was really getting depressed over this, but tried to stay in and be active despite it all...even was sealed in the temple with my present hubby.

My son grew up never going on a mission and is not active in the church any longer. He had some really bad experiences with some Young Men groups and never went back. He also was not interested in the Scouting Program as well. He only wanted to be involved with computers and became a computer nerd. lol

Now he is a MS-NT Specialist and I'm very proud of him.

As for me, I stopped going to church around the same time my son had problems with the YM programs.

All told....our active church time was around 10 years.

There are other things that eventually I ceased to believe in, but they are too numerous to mention now. Perhaps at a later date I will acknowlege them here.

At present I don't believe in ANY organized religion and I'm much happier. :)

Blessings to each and everyone,
Kilia

[helemon]

Blessings to each and everyone,
Kilia

Welcome Kilia! Looking forward to hearing more from you. :)

[runfromsafety]

At present I don't believe in ANY organized religion and I'm much happier. :)
Hi Kilia... welcome!!!!

How long have you been out of the church now? How do you feel your time in the church has impacted you? What is the residual baggage it has left with you? Where is your husband at church wise?

Of course, only answer as much of these questions as you feel comfortable to do so.

Sounds like your "computer geek" son has made some great choices in life (I work in the computer industry too :) ). Again, welcome and I look forward to hearing more from you!

[slappedhard]

:slap: :slap:

Hello,

I was born into a somewhat strict Mormon family. We were always forced to go to church to the point where mom and dad would grab, undress, and dress us into church clothes. It never really seemed right to me and I always questioned the church from about the time I was a Targeteer A.

I recently told my parents that I had resigned from the church in 1998 (told them this year 2006). I never thought that I could get up the nerve to tell them but finally feel that a big load has been taken off my shoulders.

I was a shell of a Mormon for 32 years, but inside it never felt right. I tried the mission thing at 21 to give the Mormon church one last try. I thought that putting the BOM into a 24/7 life search would be my last chance to overcome the negative feelings I had for the church teachings. It didn't work! I came home after a year.

I was married in the Logan Temple. I didn't want to, but I couldn't disappoint or face my parents. My wife was hoping for a big march down the aisle wedding and didn't care for the Temple, but wanted to support me. The problem was, I was programmed to follow my parents and not my own heart.

Finally it is out in the open in our marriage and I am suprised at how supportive she is. :) She has always felt that I have questioned it to the point where she thought that I didn't even believe in God. She is now glad that she know that I do.

Now, she has told me that she loves me enough to look deeper into the Mormon church to see if it really is a man-made religion. I am having trouble discussing this with her because she always goes to church-only documentation and the fairlds.com site. She is not convinced that other documentation may be correct. She feels that everything has a chance to have been made up and edited.

Therefore, I am at this site to hopefully gain some friendship and some help in locating information.

I feel 'Slappehard' knowing that I have had to lie to myself for the past 37 years just to feel accepted in my own family.

I hope I can find the love and support at this site.

Thanks all and good to me all y'all in advance.

Slappedhard (Into Next Week)

[whiteecho]

I will begin to introduce myself by saying that I am not very good at introductions. I have watched some of the postings on this site for sometime, and finally decided to contribute.

I was born and raised in Utah, and have always lived within very condensed mormon communities. I was by virtue of records a member since birth. I am not so currently a student at weber state, but will return as soon as finances permit. I am a 19 year old female living in Layton Utah.

What I had imagined God or even many Christian religions being like when I was a child is completely different from what I had envisioned. I was old enough at six to understand that there were other religions out there. I thought of God as truly loving everyone regardless of what they associated themselves with, or if they hadn't heard of him yet. The teachings I was recieving then was that you needed this church to get into heaven, but this worried me... What about the ones that didn't really know? I imagined people on the other side of the world who practiced other beliefs. As a child, I thought that God would also love these peoples and what they tried to follow even if it wasn't him, so he would make them happy. As I grew older I found myself thinking back on this and wishing the religion could reflect the optimisms I once held for it.

Friction surrounding the comfort within the mormon organization first began when I was fourteen. I began questioning after I had seen a a good natured friend of mine ostrasized from her community after her and her family's descision the church was of no benefit to their lives. More questions rose up about another dear friend of mine who was struggling with schizophrenia be treated the way he had been, after he had been released from the mental hospital. He was not very active in the church but even so his next visit his bishop told him he could potentially be excommunicated for being unstable. He had done nothing in church premises or even anything of violence to threaten the community and yet still he was treated in such a way.

It escalated to the point where I did not feel I would recieve anything positive from the church any longer. I was angry. I had told my parents I didn't believe in their church and I was having trouble finding belief even in God. They didn't react very well to this. Much shaming took placed and for several years after that my attendance was forced.

After a while I looked back, and after the urgings of my parents decided to give it another shot with an open heart when I was 17. After all my family had a long heritage in the church and my late Grandfather had faced many trials for his beliefs. There were many many times when I would humble myself down on my nears on many sleepless nights asking about the truths of the church. Nothing. I thought if there are different ways to ask there must be different ways of answers.

Perhaps I was going about it wrong. Perhaps I had misjudged some actions of some individuals that did not fully represent the church. I proceeded to give a closer look at the doctrines. I could not escape the term God fearing. I did not understand why god should be feared, if it was as it was claimed love is stronger than fear. Line after line, precept after precept I became discouraged in this struggle between the pages of the book of mormon and the young womens meetings. The doctrines remained of no comfort to me. I had understood god to be
loving. I could not understand the nature of sin or the atonement, or why sin should have to be an offense against god.

During this process I went through since 14, was forced to hide many of my beliefs and true feelings from my family. The slightest comment would bring up anger, being sick on sunday would get my parents angry I was watched obsessively by them so they could be sure I was not falling from the path they chose. I began devolping anxieties, which formed into panic attacks. My parents told me there was little I could do for them but pray for help from their God...

I have found solace in many other places than the LDS religion, dogmas of Buddhism, philosphy, and writings on social theory and ethics. I no longer struggle with the panic attacks after a long journey through myself and validating my feelings and the beliefs I cherished -- instead of hiding them away within.

I moved out after telling my parents I would not date a mormon boy, ever because I did not want to cause conflict in his beliefs.

I never thought I'd move home again, but my roommate continued to get further and further into debt. I also had to get off of heavy doses anxiety medication I no longer need. I had no choice but to move back here into my parents home.

I can no longer deny what I believe. I do not see myself being far off from what I believed at six, that whatever deity in charge would not codemn honest and ethical beings. It is difficult at times with staunch confrontations from my mother. Certain relationships are no longer easy now. Yet contrary to what many would have me believe I am happier now through speaking freely of what I believe and claiming the freedom to believe what I choose.

[peter_mary]

To Slappedhard and Whitecho,

Thank you both so much for sharing your stories, and for contributing to our community! It's always so great to hear from new people, something that gives us all an opportunity to grow as we expand our circle of friends. Please jump in and participate wherever and however you can.

[elder_nomo]

To Slappedhard and Whitecho,

Thank you both so much for sharing your stories, and for contributing to our community! It's always so great to hear from new people, something that gives us all an opportunity to grow as we expand our circle of friends. Please jump in and participate wherever and however you can.
Yes, thank you both for telling your stories. We'd love to hear more from you, if and when you wish.

[Born Free]

Slappedhard and whiteecho,

A huge PostMo welcome. It is not every day we have two new active additional members here. Thanks for honouring us with your company.

You both sound like you have more than a fair share of 'God's loving free agency' imposed upon you as youngsters. I hope you both find the room here to clarify your own thinking and feeling more and that you find support in your search for authenticity.

Slappedhard, is you name figurative, or did that loving coersion include some measure of the 'laying on of hands' too?

Daryl

[jamech]

How many of you have been accused of being "too intellectual" and thinking your way out of the church. Now I'll clear things up right now before I get started. I'm definitely not "too intellectual", but I have been accused of this. I was like whiteecho as a child and felt alot of "worrisome doubts". However, by the time I was a young adult, I had learned to supress these feelings for the most part. I was raised in a very active LDS home, but not overbearing. My dad encouraged us to think for ourselves. (I wonder if he regrets that counsel to a certain extent now). I married in the temple, bore 6 beautiful children and served faithfully in many callings in the church (twice as Relief Society Pres.)

The problem: Those worrisome doubts had a way of rising unbidden to the surface. I knew deep down I didn't have a testimony, but I wanted one in the worst way. I remember telling people close to me that my greatest desire was to have an unshakeable testimony. I did everything I had been counseled: I prayed diligently, read my scriptures, had family home evening and devotionals with my kids, attended church, stayed away from any "anti" mormon literature that might sway me in another direction etc. In spite of all this effort, that sought after "testimony" continued to elude me. Sure I had some warm fuzzy feelings now and then that people told me was the holy ghost telling me the church was true (I just wasn't recognizing it). But honestly, I couldn't see the difference between the warm fuzzy feelings I got in a particularly moving piece of scripture and the feelings I got from watching a beautiful sunrise or listening to a lovely piece of poetry. That wasn't enough for me. I finally came to the conclusion that "to some it is given...." It was to be my trial that my "spiritual gift" was not that of an unshakeable testimony and I would have to work hard for it. I figured if I redoubled my efforts and lived the gospel perfectly, that Heavenly Father would HAVE to take notice and finally bless me with the assurance that I was doing the right thing.

I took a "fake it till you make it" attitude and forged ahead. I started studying everything I could get my hands on that might help me build my testimony, and avoided everything that might have a damaging effect on it (including any "church approved" books dealing with church history). Unfortunatly my list of acceptable reading materal got smaller and smaller until even reading the Book of Mormon was damaging my non-existent testimony. The internal conflict in me grew till I felt I was losing my mind! Here I'm reminded of a quote by Albert Einstein: Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

This was the point I was at last December, 2005. At 42 years old with a very faithful mormon husband and six faithful mormon children, I decided I couldn't keep up the appearance any longer and it was time to do something different in order to maintain any kind of sanity. I wrote a formal letter to my family, bishop, and ward members stating that I could no longer consider myself a mormon. At first it was almost euphoric: At last I was free!! I had my own mind and the possibilities were endless and exciting. But then came the inevitable crash as I found myself cast out of the garden of eden. My husband has been very understanding and supportive, but not at all of the bent to question. He feels with his personality he couldn't survive outside the structure of the church. (It doesn't help that he works for the CES). My extended family and friends are bewildered.

Through desperate lonliness in the Spring of last year, I ventured for the first time into the forbidden territory of the exmormon world. I read articles and discussions on this website as well as exmormon.org and Zarahemla City Limits. It was my first exposure to "anti-mormon" literature. Much to my suprise I found the majority of the contributors to these sites to be honest, sincere seekers of truth, people I could really respect. I finally allowed myself the indulgence of "unfiltered research" and was suprised by the amount of scholarship and intelligence I found there (not at all what I had been told). It also sent me reeling. I had to deal with alot of feelings of disillusionment and anger. I still do.

Although I want desperately for my husband and kids to join me, they are still deeply entrenched in Mormonism. The community we live in is right in the heart of Mormondom and those whose dare to venture outside the parameters pay for it dearly. I am walking a very delicate line. My family is my passion that I'm not willing to give up without a fight! Both my husband and I are committed to keeping things together, but man it's tough!! I'm in a lonely place, but I have to admit that I've found a lot of peace and I can finally respect myself. That means a lot. I've loved reading all your stories. Boy it takes a lot of courage to finally take a stand! It's nice to know there are people out there willing to go against the current and do the right thing.

Carl Jung said in his book "Modern Man in Search of a Soul": "Tired of this warfare of opinions, the modern man wishes to find out for himself how things are. And though this desire opens bar and bolt to the most dangerous possibilities, we cannot help seeing it as a courageous enterprise and giving it some measure of sympathy. it is no reckless adventure, but an effort inspired by deep spiritual distress to bring meaning once more into life on the basis of fresh and unprejudiced experience...If we oppose it, we are trying to suppress what is best in man-his daring and his aspiration. And should we succeed, we should only have stood in the way of that invaluable experience which might have give a meaning to life."

Wow, I got really long-winded didn't I. I'll try to hold myself back in later posts :).

[dogzilla]

Please don't! We welcome fresh mea... er, perspectives. ;)

Welcome Jamech, whiteecho and slappedhard!

[elder_nomo]

Thanks for sharing your story. Feel free to jump in any time.
BTW, I think you are quite courageous!

[Born Free]

<snip>

Carl Jung said in his book "Modern Man in Search of a Soul": "Tired of this warfare of opinions, the modern man wishes to find out for himself how things are. And though this desire opens bar and bolt to the most dangerous possibilities, we cannot help seeing it as a courageous enterprise and giving it some measure of sympathy. it is no reckless adventure, but an effort inspired by deep spiritual distress to bring meaning once more into life on the basis of fresh and unprejudiced experience...If we oppose it, we are trying to suppress what is best in man-his daring and his aspiration. And should we succeed, we should only have stood in the way of that invaluable experience which might have give a meaning to life."

Wow, I got really long-winded didn't I. I'll try to hold myself back in later posts :).
Jamech,

Long-winded it may have appeared from your perspective, but it flowed, made sense, was insightful and inspiring, from this end (well my end anyway).

Welcome to PostMo. You will fit in here very comfortably I expect. How familiar your process of self-doubt, self-alienation, and dissociation sounds! Read some of the stories in the various threads of the Stages of Post-Mo Experience (up in the stickies) and you will see how near universal that is.

May I compliment you on how well you express yourself. What you wrote was engaging and flowed very naturally, and was far from a chore to read.

Welcome again.

Daryl

[noodle]

Welcome newbies! You'll find lots of great folks here who share similar histories. It's a great place for support (and some good laughs). :D

mamajama

[slappedhard]

Slappedhard and whiteecho,

Slappedhard, is you name figurative, or did that loving coersion include some measure of the 'laying on of hands' too?

Daryl

I would say 'laying on of hands' in the spiritual sense. . .

[slappedhard]

I took a "fake it till you make it" attitude and forged ahead.

.

Exactly what I did. Even did 1 year of the mission.

Your story is touching and explains a lot in my life. I was the great logical thinker in my family and thought my way out also.

Slappedhard

[free thinker]

When I read the above posts from jamech, slappedhard, and whiteecho I was interested mostly in the the contrast between what they said and a typical mormon testimony. The former had a ring of authenticity the latter always tired and generally somewhat contrived.

Who was it that said " and ye shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free". ;) Now here is the difference between the church and this web site. Here you are free to come and go as you please without social constraint. You can express any and all doubt freely. Even if it means expressing doubt about what you read and experience here. No one will tell you what you ought to know and do. No one will judge you. You will have the free agency you were always promised in the church. And it will be enthroned and celebrated. :)

So welcome friends. Have a seat. Let's talk shall we?

ft

[peter_mary]

The problem: Those worrisome doubts had a way of rising unbidden to the surface. I knew deep down I didn't have a testimony, but I wanted one in the worst way. I remember telling people close to me that my greatest desire was to have an unshakeable testimony. I did everything I had been counseled: I prayed diligently, read my scriptures, had family home evening and devotionals with my kids, attended church, stayed away from any "anti" mormon literature that might sway me in another direction etc. In spite of all this effort, that sought after "testimony" continued to elude me. Sure I had some warm fuzzy feelings now and then that people told me was the holy ghost telling me the church was true (I just wasn't recognizing it). But honestly, I couldn't see the difference between the warm fuzzy feelings I got in a particularly moving piece of scripture and the feelings I got from watching a beautiful sunrise or listening to a lovely piece of poetry. That wasn't enough for me. I finally came to the conclusion that "to some it is given...." It was to be my trial that my "spiritual gift" was not that of an unshakeable testimony and I would have to work hard for it. I figured if I redoubled my efforts and lived the gospel perfectly, that Heavenly Father would HAVE to take notice and finally bless me with the assurance that I was doing the right thing.

I took a "fake it till you make it" attitude and forged ahead. I started studying everything I could get my hands on that might help me build my testimony, and avoided everything that might have a damaging effect on it.

Wow...for a minute, I was wondering if my wife had registered and was telling HER story. Then I got to the part where your husband was still faithful, and I realized this was someone else's story :p , but man...did it ring familiar!

Thanks for sharing, Jamech, and I'm so glad you're finding a voice to share your thoughts and concerns. It is in the expression of your deepest thoughts that the healing really occurs. It does get better, my friends...it just takes time and support.

Welcome!

[jamech]

Wow! what nice responses to my story I got from all of you! It certainly isn't typical. The typical response is: "Have you REALLY prayed about this?" "I've had doubts, but the church makes me happy...are you happy?" "Well...I guess the church believes in free agency and you have the right to choose this" (apparently I decided to choose damnation :) Or the classic as said by my mother-in-law "I think I can still love you unconditionally as long as you don't influence my son and grandkids!" Then they all inevitably say: "We STILL love you." Hmmmm.....

Anyway, it's nice to talk to people that not only sympathize with me, but can actually celebrate with me!! What a lovely thought!!

I've been working on my husband fairly persistently, but he is paralyzed by fear. I've decided to back off. I have to give him credit, he's been an amazingly stable presence through all of this, and for the most part is fully supportive of my decision. It's still hard though. Sundays are the worst. I bathe and dress my kids all the way down to my 4-year-old and watch them skip out the door with their Dad on their way to church. My family, friends and neighbors think my husband is a saint the way he carries on in spite of such great "adversity". Like I said before, he is wonderfully supportive of me, but it doesn't change that fact that he gets to sit in his comfortable world and accept the congratulations of others as I take the heat. You know, sometimes it really stinks!

I often feel compelled to sit in a cage in the corner and keep my opinions to myself as those "more worthy" raise my children. Oh they "love" me just like they're supposed to (as long as I don't get out of hand). They'll give me tranquilizers if I get too dangerous.

OK ENOUGH of this pity party!! A lot of that stuff is just ranting and isn't always as bad as I make it sound. I did have something really nice happen yesterday that I'll share: My beautiful 18-year-old daughter wrote a note to me that said: "Dear Mom, You are such a strong and courageous woman in my eyes. You're like a pioneer venturing forth on new soil that not many others have dared to try. I really appreciate that because I feel like you're breaking the ground for me and making my path easier. I feel lucky. I haven't chosen my path yet, but I feel like which ever way I choose, my path won't be too bad because bridges have been built to help me across."

Cool huh?

I've enjoyed reading all your posts immensely. You are a very intelligent lot - and, I must admit, slightly intimidating. Some of the topics you discuss so easily, I've never even heard of!!! If nothing, else, I'm learning a lot. ;)

[grape_nephi]

Hello all. A friend just told me about this site and I thought I would give it a look-see. I was raised from an early age in the church and after 40 years have made my way to freedom. The following is my story...

When I received the call that my Father had collapsed and was not conscious, I knew he was gone. I could feel it. The anchor for our family was gone. And now I was the oldest male in the immediate family.

The next few months took its toll on our emotions and my mother’s health. We slowly cleaned out the house and moved my Mother to live with my sister, but the aftermath of the death would haunt me for years.

Circa 1964 on a family vacation my parents were introduced to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints; the Mormons. They joined when I was 9 years old and I was baptized at that time. From that time on, I was raised Mormon.

Life as a Mormon in the 60's and 70's was relatively easy in Western New York. We lived close to the church which helped as we had two meetings on Sunday and one mid-week. As a child growing up I went to primary during the week. Sunday school was in the morning on Sunday and Sacrament meeting was in the afternoon. As there were very few Mormon youth at the school that I attended most of my friends were non-Mormons but that was normal for the area that we lived in. As I grew up I took part in the normal Mormon activities; cub scouts, boy scouts, road shows, etc. The youth activities were a lot of fun at that time and allowed us to meet Mormon youth from other areas.

After I graduated form High School I entered college with the intention of going for a year and then going on my mission. Becoming a missionary at age 19 was an expected thing to do for male Mormon youth. In September of 1975 I flew to Salt Lake City where I was picked up and delivered to the Missionary Training Center. As I had been called to the Navajo Speaking Arizona Holbrook Mission I spent only a few days in the MTC before being transferred to BYU where the Language Training Center was housed at the time. We actually stayed and ate on the BYU campus.

The regimen at the LTC was very tight and also very strict. Missionaries were kept very busy from the time they got up until lights out at night. The days were taken up with language study and memorizing the missionary discussions. As Navajo was a difficult language for most English speakers, the Navajo speaking missionaries were typically very quiet as after the first week we were discouraged from speaking Englsih except to ask questions on the language or when talking with non-Navajo speakers.

After three months of this grueling routine we were scheduled for departure to our mission assignments. After my flight I was taken to the Mission Headquarters in Holbrook, Arizona. There I met the assistants to the mission president, George P. Lee, a Navajo and only American Indian General Authority as well as his family. It was sort of a whirlwind for the first few days until I was transfered to Kayenta, Arizona. My first companion was Elder Willie. He was a Navajo and was the area zone leader. Working with him allowed me to cement my knowledge of the Navajo language. The zone included Shonto, Mexican Hat, Aneth, Chilchinbito and north to Blanding, UT. We traveled quite a bit and Willie was a hard worker and so we didn’t slack at all. From my first area of Kayenta, I moved to Shonto and then on to other areas including Chinle, Tohatchi, Aneth, Fruitland and Sanders. While in Fruitland I had an interesting experience. One of my companions there was getting ready to go home and had no desire to work. He wanted to play basketball and just tink around. I got to the point that I couldn’t stand to be around him. Now unfortunately this is a problem as missionaries are to be with their companions 24/7. So I put on my jeans, a regular shirt and headed out. I was going to just leave. I went down to the San Juan river and started to walk along it, not knowing where I was going to go. As I was walking I found a young sheep that didn’t look in the best of shape. I took it to the Hatch trading post and then thought better of my decision to just take off. I went back and just hung out at the missionary accommodations. Anyone who tells you that missionary life is easy, is not telling the truth or did not fulfill any kind of normal mission. Luckily for me, my mission was filled mainly with social work, even though we did do tracting and taught lessons. We built sheep corals, poured foundations, built homes, herded sheep, chopped wood, worked with the youth to help keep them out of trouble and generally did as much as we could for the people in our area. I also spent time in the hospital a number of times, was dehydrated walking in the desert during forced fasts, was threatened with bodily injury, and had one companion beat up when he went to the trading post that we lived behind. Even with the problems that we faced as missionaries I can still say that the experience was a positive one for me.

After I returned from my mission I started college in Western, NY and during my senior year met my future wife. She was not Mormon but during one of our early dates I had mentioned that I wanted to marry in our temple. My wife then went out and contacted the missionaries. Short story was that she joined the Church. We married in May of 1980 after both graduating from college. She had a degree in geology and I had a degree in anthropology. We both worked as field archaeologists in western NY. This went on for an extended season and then we planned our move to attend graduate school. Both of us had been accepted to Northern Arizona University. It would be like I was going home as NAU was right near the Navajo reservation and was very close to one of the areas that I had spent time in.

In August of 1981 we made our move west. We immediately found a ward to take part in and accepted church positions as we knew we should. Over the years in Flagstaff I was in the elder’s quorum presidency a number of times, including being Elder’s Quorum president, was a scout leader, Sunday school teacher, etc. My wife also held many positions including primary president. Becuase of lack of funds I was the only one who attended grad school. My wife initially worked as an archaeologist in Flagstaff. As I was finishing my degree I landed a position at the University where I still work today. Life was good. We did our work in the church including being called as Temple Workers in the Mesa temple. And in 1990 we started our family after years of trying. Our first son was born. And a year later disaster basically struck our family. I had two heart attacks and had to be flown to Phoenix to have emergency heart surgery.

This was quite a blow to me. How could God do this to me when I was a faithful member of the church. I did all my duties. Was a good home teacher. I payed my tithing and obeyed the commandments. During surgery I went into a black hole and when I came out I had lost my faith in God. This would be a struggle for me for years to come. I recovered from the surgery but my health to date has not fully recovered. I work hard to stay fit but it is a difficult task. And early in the new century the ward boundaries changed. By this time we had two boys. The new ward we were assigned to had very few children. Even though my wife and I were not all that young the ward had a preponderance of older retired couples. Needless to say we did not fit in. During the spring of 2003 we planned a family trip to the UK. We decided to take the month of May off from April off from church and see how we felt. During our absence, no one called from church. This concerned us a little. While we were gone to Europe, I received an email from the secretary to the Bishop asking that we meet with him. I declined and said we would not be returning to church; meaning the Flagstaff 1st Ward. Prior to leaving for Europe we had arranged for our older boy who was in scouts to attend summer camp with one of the other wards as we would be in Europe when our ward was scheduled for camp. When we returned from Europe we started to attend the Lake Mary Ward which was the ward that our son would attend scout camp with. We fully enjoed the ward and actually knew quite a few people there. Within a month or so we had a meeting with the Bishop where he quite unequivocally stated that he did not want any trouble makers in his ward, that he could not help us move our records, but he would make sure our kids were taken care of. I was devastated. Why wouldn’t the church help us. All we wanted was a ward where we fit in and where they had a good kid’s program. So no tithing, no church positions, no temple recommend.

Shortly after that my father died. This was very hard on me and on my family and was completely out of the blue. I had lunch with him and that night he died. While my brother and I were cleaning out his house and getting ready to move my mother to live with my sister, I found a book entitled Masonry and Mormanism. This book was the start of my realization that the church was a fraud. It was written by a Mormon apologist and was the worst written book in a long time. It even had a chapter in it on Navajo religion that was complete and utter bunk. Reading this book started me on a path of study that lasted 3-4 months. I read, 1st century Christian texts, studied Masonry, early church history and theology. During the Christmas season I had a revelatory experience. I now know that at that time I was plagued with a bad case of cognitive dissonance. I had compartmentalized church teachings separate from what I knew as an anthropologist. During this time of study and reflection I also was praying earnestly for an answer to the question of “could the Mormon Church be true?” when all the evidence I was reading, from old church and other sources, said it was not. During the Christmas season as I was reading one evening, alone, at home, I sat and thought. I let reason flow and all of a sudden it was as if scales had fallen from my eyes and I was able to see and to think rationally again. I almost felt like I was sitting beside myself and was able to think rationally once more. This ecstatic experience fostered a sense of peace and comfort, I was no longer confused over my question of the truth of the Mormon Church. I knew and realized that a true Christian religion could not be based on lies and that true Christian leaders would not hide the truth from the membership. I recounted this experience to a member of the local Stake Presidency and this is the response that I received from him:

“Would you be willing to consider that your ecstatic experience (personal revelation?) last winter was just a figment of your imagination if I suggested that?”

Many Mormons would consider the source of the experience that I had to be from Satan. Because Mormons believe that they have the sole right to acting in God’s name and also in receiving
revelation, no revelation short of saying the Mormon church is true is considered by them to be right.

I could now be at peace with myself. I prayed fervently over the next number of months. For insight into what I was discovering and finally was able to convince myself that if there was a God that he would not want me to be a guilt ridden person. That he gave us reason to use. And that science and religion need not conflict.

I continued my study. Reading voraciously. During 2005 I even agreed to appear in a video on Bible vs Book of Mormon archaeology. And finally on January 1st, 2006 my family and I resigned from the Mormon Church.

Today I am an agnostic. I hope there is a God and an afterlife, but do not know if there is or not. So I guess you could say that I do believe in some sort of greater power or God. I call myself a Christian but follow no set sect. I believe that someone named Jesus existed historically and that he was a great Rabbi. I do not believe in the man-god myth of the New Testament. But I do believe that if we follow the teachings of the Rabbi Jesus that we can become better people.

Good luck in your journey through life and I hope that my experience has helped you in some way.

[peter_mary]

“Would you be willing to consider that your ecstatic experience (personal revelation?) last winter was just a figment of your imagination if I suggested that?”


Hey, grape_nephi, thanks for the story!

I found the above to be especially telling. It is actually rather amusing when you look at it to realize how that question goes both ways. Why is it so hard to imagine that the testimony-building experiences we had as Mormons, and that our Mormon friends and family continue to believe in, are "just figments of their imagination?" I'm sure if you suggested it to this member of the Stake Presidency he would be indignant at the suggestion...but it's clearly no different than what he is suggesting of you. But without breaking out of the mindset, there is NO way they can see that. Which is part of what makes it as hard to me a former-member in Zion as it is to be a Democrat. (Peter_Mary is still mourning the victory of ultra-conservative politics yesterday in Idaho :( )

[jamech]

Grape_Nephi

I really enjoyed reading your post and, yes, I did find it helpful. I loved the easy flow of your story and the clear presentation of your journey into yourself and, consequently, out of the church. I was interested in your choice of words "cognitive dissonance" as being related to compartmentalizing our beliefs away from our more rational self. This happened to me as well. I would venture to guess that this cognitive dissonance (can you tell I like this term) is a problem for many people currently in the church. They just aren't willing to analyze the two sides in a way where the two sides would have a chance to collide. I did experience the collision of belief and logic and I nearly went insane!....until...I finally allowed myself to accept the possibility that the church may not be true. After that it didn't take long for the card castle to fall. Once I was able to acknowledge that I didn't believe, I had a (spiritual?) experience similar to yours. The feeling would best be described as euphoric. I KNEW I had made the right decision to no longer consider myself a mormon.

This feeling didn't last long, however, and like the experience of many on this site, the consequences of my choice nearly destroyed me (literally). I soon found out that the church does not support it's own and felt the full effects of being "cast out" of the garden of Eden. I sent out my formal letter to family and ward in January of 2006 as well :) I've enjoyed this site as a place to talk and share with people who have had similar experiences. It has helped a lot in the healing process. I hope it helps you, too!

Anyway, welcome to postmormon.org! I hope to hear more from you!

Jamech

[simonyt]

I'm getting more and more realized that lots of the church's doctrines are lies. It's so hard to find a good church...I've been a mormon for 5 years and just quit. I don't know if there is any church on the earth that doesn't lie at all...I believe in Christ, but am I right or wrong?




Is there a way to keep this thread on top for all new members to see? There are lots of members...I'd like to hear about you. So if you'd like please respond and tell us a little about yourselves....how long you were/have been a member, what you'd like to gain from this board, etc, etc. Don't be shy! It's all of you that make up this community and I am anxious to do some bonding. (uh oh, now I've scared them away) :) Okay, I won't try to bond too much......tag, you're it!

[peter_mary]

I'm getting more and more realized that lots of the church's doctrines are lies. It's so hard to find a good church...I've been a mormon for 5 years and just quit. I don't know if there is any church on the earth that doesn't lie at all...I believe in Christ, but am I right or wrong?
First of all, welcome, simonyt.

But are you right or wrong regarding belief in Christ? Wow...big question. Tell us what you mean, what you're thinking, what you're wrestling with. There are those here who believe in a more traditional Christ, some who believe in the virtue of Christ without the diety, and others who don't believe at all. There's "rightness" in all of those perspectives...but it's hard to see that if you are trapped in the old Mormon mindset of "there is only one, true church, and all others are of the devil. My job is to figure out which one, lest I go to hell."

They all lie...and they all tell the truth. How all of that interacts with YOU is the real question...