Story (Long Post Warning for the disinclined)

[peter_mary]

I've often pondered the myth-making potential of religion, Mormonism being being no different in that regard than any other, and have tried hard to look at the times in my life when I was participating in the making of myths. But there was a particular incident in my life that really helped me look at the process and understand it. It wasn't a biggy. In fact, the whole point of the story is that under ordinary circumstances and myth-making, this would go completely unnoticed.

A few years back, while I was contemplating asking for a release from the Bishopric, I happened to be running to the grocery store late in the evening near the end of the Christmas holidays. It was cold outside, snow on the ground, the wind blowing...typical for the time of year. As I stepped up to the line at the cash register, I noticed a young man talking to the clerk, and asking if he could simply cash a check so he could buy some milk. But since he was from out of town, and it was a two-party check, the clerk said she couldn't do it. He left and I quickly forgot him.

After I had finally paid for my handful of groceries, I bundled up against the wind and headed for my car. As I unlocked the door, I glanced in the window of the car next to me and was startled to see the young man sitting in the front seat...with his young wife, and an obviously distressed baby sitting beside him. "Huh," I said to myself. "Wonder what's up with them?" Being a cretin, I climbed in my car and pulled away. As I did so, I noticed that their plates were from Latah county in Idaho, and putting two and two together, I figured they were probably college students heading back to the University of Idaho (my alma mater), and had stopped here on their way back after the Christmas vacation.

As I pulled out of the parking lot, I reflected on the times we had done the same thing, with one, then two, and eventualy with three babies in the car, making that dangerous winter trek through Idaho, then Montana, and eventually back into the panhandle of North Idaho. It was exhausting. As my mind drifted, I began to feel a tug, an urgency about the situation of that couple in their car that was rapidly becoming an anoyance. I tried to put it out of my mind, but the further I drove, the more I really began to struggle with some other-worldly impulse to turn around and go offer assistance. Again I resisted, but the insistence persisted until I couldn't take it any longer, and in exasperation, I threw my hands in the air, and cried right out loud in the car, "All right! I get the message! I'll go back!" As I turned the car around, I made a deal with "God."

"If they're still there when I get back to the Albertson's parking lot, then I'll offer my assistance. But if they're not, You gotta leave me alone for the rest of the night!" I bargained.

By the time I pulled back into that parking lot, I had been gone for nearly ten minutes, and you can imagine my surprise when I saw that they were still sitting there. "Okay," I muttered out loud. "You were right. I'll go and do the right thing." Without really knowing what to expect, I pulled up along side their car, hopped out, and walked around to tap on the young dad's window.

It must have been more than a little threatening, to have a strange man (which I am! :) ) tapping on your window at 11:00 at night, but to his credit, he rolled it down enough to ask me what I wanted.

"I just couldn't help but notice there in the store a few minutes ago that you needed some cash to buy milk, and, well, I wondered if maybe I could be of some assistance," I offered, trying for all my might to be as non-threatening as humanly possible without actually groveling in the snow.

"Oh, no, we're alright," he assured me with a smile.

"No, really," I replied, "I'd be more than happy to help out. I can give you a couple of bucks, fill your gas tank, buy you some milk, whatever. I remember being in your shoes, and I know it can be tough at times. I'd really like to help."

"No, sir, thank you all the same, but we've got everything we need," he said with a smile.

"You sure?" I asked. After all, I had been guided here for this moment, and he's screwing it up.

"I'm sure," he said, producing a full baby's bottle of milk. "We're good. I just thought I'd be safe with a little extra, but we've got plenty to get us home. But thanks." And with that he rolled his window back up.

Perplexed, I bid them good night, walked back to my car and drove home.

Do you have to wonder if I got up in Fast and Testimony the next month and talked about the still small voice that guided me to help some needy person? Of course you don't. Ordinarily, those events are not retold because they are not even remembered. It is, once again, a function of our paradigms. See, the paradigm that feeds the myth-making only has the ability to see that which supports the myth, and is utterly and completely blind (and deaf) to that which doesn't. This was the first time in my life that I had confronted a "non-event" and evaluated it for its myth-making potential had it turned out differently. The potential is obviously great, and yet I became painfully aware in that moment that MY myth was dependent on THEIR cooperation, and this time, they didn't play.

How many times have we turned ordinary events into mythology, because we longed to imbue it with mystical, spiritual meaning? "Why do we do that?" he asked rhetorically. Because deep down inside, I believe we were all fragile in our confidence regarding our acceptability to God. We knew that He demanded perfection...and that we were not perfect. We knew that He could not tolerate the least degree of uncleaness...and we were spotted. We repented, we strove for perfection, we did our duty and upheld our standards, but because of our doubt, we sought hungrily for some degree of assurance that we were indeed acceptable in the eyes of the Lord. So on occassion, when you or I happened upon a moment or circumstance that could possibly, even remotely, be understood in the context of the great mystery, rather than attempt to understand it rationally, we CHOSE to understand it mystically, and thereby assure ourselves, and others around us, that God found us acceptable.

The spirit craves acceptance, because the alternative is terrifying. But since God is either all-accepting (because He is all loving) or He isn't there at all (you pick), that assurance is not forthcoming from on high, and therefore we have no alternative but to manufacture it ourselves. The Church, and all religion, helps us do that. It provides a context whereby we can frame our experiences, and interpret them according to the projections we wish to cast upon them. In so doing, it provides a hope, albeit ONLY a hope, that we will forever be okay. That we will return with honor, a faithul son or daughter who endured to the end.

Sigh...

I learned that night in an Albertsons parking lot that I was the myth-maker. And I was never really the same.

Paul

[silverfox]

Thanks for your story. I remember always trying to make every experience a spiritual one in a "churchy' sense. In a way that would be accepted by the church. Even bad ones. (I was meant to be in a horrible marriage because the Lord needed me to help my ex....yeah, riiiiiight)

I find it interesting that I feel more spiritual now than ever. Does anyone else feel that way? I am not sure if there is a God but I do feel there is "something". I can't help but feel it's a power within ourselves whether or not it links to a God.

As a member I often pondered how the church felt about non members who were so caring and giving, obviously touched by SOMETHING (couldn't be the holy ghost cuz they didn't have it, right?) Mother Teresa comes to mind. I always admired her and the sacrafices she made for humanity.

I am sure if that couple was LDS they shared their story at their fast meeting, too.

[Jeff_Ricks]

Thanks Paul, I enjoyed reading that and appreciate the conclusions you draw.

I'm going to share something kind of personal. Take it any way you like. It has to do with the moment I finally chose to forever leave the church behind. It was a day when I was deep in thought struggling with the issues that left me with little choice but to leave, weighed against the social consequences of leaving. As I wrestled with my thoughts, trying to find a solution that would allow me the easy choice, to stay, my subconscious mind apparently reached an answer before my conscious mind did and offered up a solution in a sequence of what I prefer to call "visual metaphors." It was as if they had bubbled up into my conscious mind, rising from the depths of my subconscious like water just beginning to boil. I suppose the metal struggle at the time was like the heat moving my subconscious into action. The thing that still to this day amazes me is that the symbols were well constructed and intricately encoded with the answer I needed at the time, and the answer was obvious. I had to leave. From that moment I have never looked back.

Because I’d never experienced anything quite like that in my life I knew it had to be God talking to me. I could see no other explanation. But having been burned by Mormonism through making similar assumptions I always held out the possibility for another explanation and today I am confident that a god had nothing to do with it. It was simply a function of the human mind. But because the symbolism was more than random images popping off in my head; indeed they were coherently interconnected and rich in meaning to me, I have gained a deeper appreciation for the mind and of the opinion that we have only begun to scratch the surface of what mind and consciousness is all about.

I think many a myth and testimony are based on such natural occurring artifacts of consciousness. Maybe Joseph Smith had a similar experience that when mixed with his gold-digging, con-man tendencies and healthy imagination became the impetus for his 6 different versions of his first vision. At that point the human tendency toward mythmaking, especially back in the 1800’s, took over and ran with one of those versions that eventually grew into what is today the Mormon myth. I suspect the origin of most religions, and religious experiences can be attributed to similar artifacts of consciousness.

But in spite of what I think back on even today as an moving experience, like you Paul, when I reached the point where I began to allow reason and critical thinking to outweigh my tendency toward mythmaking is the point when I became free. That was my final confrontation with the Bull.

Jeff

[peter_mary]

Because I’d never experienced anything quite like that in my life I knew it had to be God talking to me. I could see no other explanation. But having been burned by Mormonism through making similar assumptions I always held out the possibility for another explanation and today I am confident that a god had nothing to do with it. It was simply a function of the human mind. But because the symbolism was more than random images popping off in my head; indeed they were coherently interconnected and rich in meaning to me, I have gained a deeper appreciation for the mind and of the opinion that we have only begun to scratch the surface of what mind and consciousness is all about.

But in spite of what I think back on even today as an moving experience, like you Paul, when I reached the point where I began to allow reason and critical thinking to outweigh my tendency toward mythmaking is the point when I became free. That was my final confrontation with the Bull.

Jeff

I'll wax personal too, as I had a similar experience, only it is what took me IN to the Church. I was very much in love with a Mormon girl when I was but a lad of 18 and 19, and had decided that she was the one. There was only this one, tiny, insignificant little problem--she was devoutly LDS and I was not. At a deep level I understood that this created a barrier to ever taking our relationship deeper. At her prompting, I engaged with the missionaries, and made it through all of the lessons without a spiritual confirmation. I really felt like I had to have that in order to join the Church, and in turn I knew I had to join the Church if I was going to ultimately be able to pursue a long-term relationship with this girl.

I remember vividly sitting in my apartment at school and reading the Book of Mormon, Alma chapter 32. As I read the parable of the seed, I became overwhelmed emotionally, and in that moment believed fervently that God had given me that spiritual confirmation I was seeking. I called the missionaries and scheduled my baptism. I asked that same girl to marry me the very day I was baptized (which explains why I never served a mission ;) ) and we have been blissfully married ever since.

But in my quiet moments of reflection the past few years, I have come to have a completely different appreciation for that experience, which was truly profound. I realize now that in my heart, I desired to marry this girl. My subconscious mind understood that in order to make that happen, first it had to make a "spiritual experience" happen. And so with the first good opportunity, that's exactly what it did. I was having an ordinary experience, but my mind imbued the experience with powerful metaphores and spiritual meaning, and in the process, chose to believe it was a divine response to my prayers. My mind created the whole thing, but I could only understand that when I finally could admit to myself that that's exactly what I was doing.

I have subsequenty, for right or for wrong, (and there are no doubt others on this forum who would tell me indeed I AM wrong) come to believe that the power of prayer ultimately lies in the power of the mind. I truly believe that the times I have felt "the stirrings of the spirit" in my prayers were the times when I knew at a core level what was the right course of action, and the resonance with reason, desire and the emotional experience of prayer resulted in an "answer" that I interpreted then as a gift from God. Now I know that it was a gift to myself, from myself. On the other hand, I have known a number of people (most of them have been important women in my life, like my wife and my oldest daughter) who have prayed faithfully for YEARS, asking for guidance on something for which they truly had not forumlated a subconscious response--and the heavens were silent. I admire people who have the subconscious integrity sufficient to resist making up their own answers to their prayers, because I wasn't that strong.

I could not agree with you more, Jeff, that the mind is the most powerful spiritual and myth-making tool we possess, which I'm sure is why human beings are the only creatures who require God...

Paul

[free thinker]

Great to read the above!! Very inciteful!! The mind is quite powerfull. It is my understanding that we use only a fraction of it. Hmmm !

I read Joseph Campbells " The Power of Myth" Great Book. Tackles some of these issues. Myth, I think, unfortunately, is much more powerful than truth!!

Love this site!!!


Free Thinker

[bigeddy]

As I read the posts on this thread I am, once again, marveling at the profound importance of the patterns of growth that underlie all of the mythmaking tendencies and etc. Seeking to understand these patterns is what led me beyond Mormonism.

My story: I was in the Atlanta Temple having come with the youth to do baptisms for the dead. I was the Church Educational System Coordinator for a hunk of Florida and so these kids where the people I was working with and loving deeply. I was assigned to do the confirmations after they were baptized for dead folks. As I laid my hands on the heads of these precious kids I had one of the most "spiritual" experiences of my life. I could almost "see", "sense", "perceive", or otherwise know of the importance of the people for whom they were being baptized. This went on and on as we worked through all the names the kids had been assigned. It was powerful. I was struck not only with the sacredness of the people for whom they were being dunked but for those kids themselves. When I left the church I had to come to grips with the reality of that experience; which I had interpreted to mean that "the church", the baptisms for the dead, and all of it--was "true". Many such experiences, in and out of church contexts, had to be understood in order to fit some pattern of reality. After leaving the church these type experiences became every day ones as I sat in my office and dealt with real people. I would feel most profoundly their sacredness, their humanity.

Many of the things I read in the BOM had hit my insides and resounded in a way that I had been taught to interpret as signifying "truth" regarding the church, the prophet, etc. I have had the same experience when reading Harold Kushner (a Rabbi), Ken Wilber, Neale Donald Walsh ("Conversations with God") and a host of others. (Significantly, I have not had that experience very often reading the tripe re-written by GA's to sell their books and enrich themselves and Deseret Book. I stopped reading that crap years and years ago when I realized it was always the same book; just with a new name and author--they had nothing to teach me, no wisdom to share.)

What pattern of reality explained all this (the strong "promptings of the spirit")? It no longer could be interpreted as a sign that Mormonism is "true." There must be a higher paradigm through which to see it, the mythmaking tendencies and all the powerful things that I had been taught to ascribe to the exclusive territory of the Mormons. I attended AA and NA meetings and felt more "spirit" than in almost all sacrament meetings and General Conferences. What unifying patterns explained this? Did I leave this power and glory behind if I left the church?

I discovered that growth is a marvelous thing. I grew beyond Mormonism as a paradigm and had to find others that were more encompassing and more adequate to explain life. I found much wisdom in Ken Wilber's work unifying the various theories of people. He talks of transformational growth (horizontal growth) where we stay within one paradigm and continue to learn more and more without a newer, more unifying paradigm to answer the complexities. (I see this aspect if I happen to run across a BYU Roundtable discussion with the religion department folks while channel surfing. Hell, I taught with these men and women. I was visited by them in my office when they were on their search for new quotes by GA's. I saw their surprise when I was not interested in having copies of the drivel they found.) It is a kind of growth that does not trandscend certain bounds of reality. It is the kind of growth we would see if an adult stayed within the Santa Claus level of development and continued to study, ponder and write about the intracasies of Santa, the elves and the Reindeer. It becomes ridiculous. Wilber talks of transformational growth (vertical growth) that takes us beyond an existing paradigm and moves us to a higher one that is more unifying, more adequate to deal with the complexities that abound. I watch my students struggle when I throw things at them that challenge their current paradigm and invite them to do vertical growth. I see the fear they have and sometimes I witness the relief that comes when they "move up" to a new world view that allows them to make sense of complexity and ambiguity.

I have worked with many men trapped in addictions to drugs, alcohol and pornography. I have explored their efforts to get help from their Bishops and Stake Presidents and I marvel at the lack of wisdom usually evident in the counsel they received. It is clear that these men (the leaders) have either never had the invitation to grow vertically or they turned from it. The last year I taught Seminary for CES (Church Educational System) I taught with a man who had all the answers (at his lower paradigm). He was very proud of himself and his "wisdom". He had spent years in horizontal growth and could go on at length in the minutae of the reindeer's hooves. But so what. When we ate lunch I would throw at him the real world examples and experiences of the people I worked with at an acute care psychiatric hospital. I totally confounded him because he needed a higher more encompassing paradigm. Finally, one day he said "I don't want you to tell me anything else--it just confuses me." He chose to stay at a lower developmental level (paradigm). As a teacher he is a dangerous man.

Anyway, I look at the areas of the world where the church has success; the third world contries, by and large. I believe this is so because those people are coming out of chaos and need the paradigm offered them by the missionaries. Other areas of the world where a higher, wiser, more encompassing, more adequate paradigm is needed reject the missionaries wholesale.

Coming out of chaos requires polarized thinking. The church folks are experts at that. But polarized thinking has its limits and they are profound. This last election was a true example of the conundrum of the poles. I was amazed at the way the polarized populace was exploited for their votes. No wisdom. I heard Rush Limbaugh one day say something to the effect that, "Those evil liberals want you to think that these issues are gray. It is black and white and always will be."

To rise beyond the polarized process we have to be open to a dialectical process. We have to welcome diversity, argument, opposition and believe that in the struggle to balance these opposites we will be pushed to vertical growth. We will have to find and adopt a more adequate, more unifying paradigm. The more we resist this process the more we are mired in the quagmire of "no answers."

Well, we all know how open the GA's are to a dialectic. How eager they are to welcome anyone that tells them they are full of shit. Hence, they cannot grow beyond the polarized stage of them/us, good/bad, right/wrong, etc. and etc. I have worked too long (doing therapy) with people who are stuck in this polarization and cannot find a way out because if they grow they will become, like all of you have said, wicked and evil. They will be subject, along with their families (like Paul's daughter) to the rumors and mischaracterizations that will be hurtful. They are scared to leave the safety of their families and extended families and to have to feel the rejection and vilification all of you have mentioned.

So, I stay angry at Boyd, Gordon, Tom and the rest. I see everyday the hurt they cause because they are afraid to seek a higher paradigm. It becomes obvious that there is no desire for growth, but for power and authority over other people. Exactly what we can expect for men who remain locked in a lower paradigm--a lower level of growth. The use of a social machine (the church) to extend and permanantize their power is godless.

Anyway, I needed to rant. Thanks

Ed

[Jeff_Ricks]

Thank you for participating in this discussion forum. I very much enjoy reading what you have to say.

I'd like our readers to know that Ed used to teach at BYU, was employed by the Church Educational System, and has a Doctor of Psychology and now teaches at Weber State (if I'm not mistaken). And he's a personable, down to earth, one hell of a nice guy. He and his wife are personal friends of mine. I hope some of you who don’t know them can meet them someday. As far as I'm concerned, "Bigeddy," it's an honor to have you share your thoughts and friendship with us here. Keep posting!

Jeff

[peter_mary]

To rise beyond the polarized process we have to be open to a dialectical process. We have to welcome diversity, argument, opposition and believe that in the struggle to balance these opposites we will be pushed to vertical growth. We will have to find and adopt a more adequate, more unifying paradigm. The more we resist this process the more we are mired in the quagmire of "no answers."


Ed

This is a particular bit of delicious irony for me. The Church makes a good deal of noise regarding the importance of creating order out of chaos (in fact, most of religion shares that particular passion). I expect that there are many of us, myself included, who find the chaos much better than the order! Once I let go of the need to know, I found SO much more comfort and peace in "not knowing" than I EVER had in knowing.

But you can't dialogue with those who "know," and the Church is founded on the belief that by revelation, you can in fact "know" all things. When someone is convinced they "know," then the dialogue ceases--what is there to discuss, other than perhaps YOUR ignorance?

But when you revel in "not knowing," dialogue becomes your most important nutrient--it sustains not only growth, but life itself! That's why this board has become so important. It quite literally feeds me! There is infinately more to learn in "not knowing" than "knowing" ever could provide.

Thanks for the vitamins, my friends!

Paul

[bigeddy]

Several models of growth (Loevinger's model of ego development, Miller's model of faith and Scott Peck's model of personal growth) boil down to 4 steps; chaos, followed by polarized thinking, followed by profound contemplation, followed by wisdom. Step 3 (profound contemplation) looks and feels like one has returned to chaos. This step is characterized by admitting "I don't know--I used to think I did but now I'm not sure." This is the stage when we confront all the gray--the gray that we could not confront in the polarized step. To those in this third step and to those who observe them, it often looks like a return to chaos. But it is significantly different. Confusing chaos with this step three is like what Wilber calls the "pre-post falacy".

So, I guess what I want most to convey to those on the way out. It will feel like a return to chaos. It will look to others like you have gone back to chaos. They will say you have gone off the deep end, lost your testimonkey and such like. These are the ones like Paul says who "know," or who my brother talks about when he refers to the "arrogance of knowing." We can look at folks still in the polarized stage and see them as people still growing. Like when I see my grandkids believing in things that are developmentally appropriate for their age and stage. I keep trying to find the balance of tolerating the fear evident in those who "should" have grown beyond by now and pushing them to transcend. I often don't do well at dealing with their fear.

Ed

[bigeddy]

By the way, it cracks me up to hear someone say that I have lost my testimony. I have more to testify of now than ever, and I do it all the time. I testify of growth, of the sacredness of human beings (and of the lack of evolution of Boyd)

Amen

[free thinker]

I've often pondered the myth-making potential of religion, Mormonism being being no different in that regard than any other, and have tried hard to look at the times in my life when I was participating in the making of myths. But there was a particular incident in my life that really helped me look at the process and understand it. It wasn't a biggy. In fact, the whole point of the story is that under ordinary circumstances and myth-making, this would go completely unnoticed.

A few years back, while I was contemplating asking for a release from the Bishopric, I happened to be running to the grocery store late in the evening near the end of the Christmas holidays. It was cold outside, snow on the ground, the wind blowing...typical for the time of year. As I stepped up to the line at the cash register, I noticed a young man talking to the clerk, and asking if he could simply cash a check so he could buy some milk. But since he was from out of town, and it was a two-party check, the clerk said she couldn't do it. He left and I quickly forgot him.

After I had finally paid for my handful of groceries, I bundled up against the wind and headed for my car. As I unlocked the door, I glanced in the window of the car next to me and was startled to see the young man sitting in the front seat...with his young wife, and an obviously distressed baby sitting beside him. "Huh," I said to myself. "Wonder what's up with them?" Being a cretin, I climbed in my car and pulled away. As I did so, I noticed that their plates were from Latah county in Idaho, and putting two and two together, I figured they were probably college students heading back to the University of Idaho (my alma mater), and had stopped here on their way back after the Christmas vacation.

As I pulled out of the parking lot, I reflected on the times we had done the same thing, with one, then two, and eventualy with three babies in the car, making that dangerous winter trek through Idaho, then Montana, and eventually back into the panhandle of North Idaho. It was exhausting. As my mind drifted, I began to feel a tug, an urgency about the situation of that couple in their car that was rapidly becoming an anoyance. I tried to put it out of my mind, but the further I drove, the more I really began to struggle with some other-worldly impulse to turn around and go offer assistance. Again I resisted, but the insistence persisted until I couldn't take it any longer, and in exasperation, I threw my hands in the air, and cried right out loud in the car, "All right! I get the message! I'll go back!" As I turned the car around, I made a deal with "God."

"If they're still there when I get back to the Albertson's parking lot, then I'll offer my assistance. But if they're not, You gotta leave me alone for the rest of the night!" I bargained.

By the time I pulled back into that parking lot, I had been gone for nearly ten minutes, and you can imagine my surprise when I saw that they were still sitting there. "Okay," I muttered out loud. "You were right. I'll go and do the right thing." Without really knowing what to expect, I pulled up along side their car, hopped out, and walked around to tap on the young dad's window.

It must have been more than a little threatening, to have a strange man (which I am! :) ) tapping on your window at 11:00 at night, but to his credit, he rolled it down enough to ask me what I wanted.

"I just couldn't help but notice there in the store a few minutes ago that you needed some cash to buy milk, and, well, I wondered if maybe I could be of some assistance," I offered, trying for all my might to be as non-threatening as humanly possible without actually groveling in the snow.

"Oh, no, we're alright," he assured me with a smile.

"No, really," I replied, "I'd be more than happy to help out. I can give you a couple of bucks, fill your gas tank, buy you some milk, whatever. I remember being in your shoes, and I know it can be tough at times. I'd really like to help."

"No, sir, thank you all the same, but we've got everything we need," he said with a smile.

"You sure?" I asked. After all, I had been guided here for this moment, and he's screwing it up.

"I'm sure," he said, producing a full baby's bottle of milk. "We're good. I just thought I'd be safe with a little extra, but we've got plenty to get us home. But thanks." And with that he rolled his window back up.

Perplexed, I bid them good night, walked back to my car and drove home.

Do you have to wonder if I got up in Fast and Testimony the next month and talked about the still small voice that guided me to help some needy person? Of course you don't. Ordinarily, those events are not retold because they are not even remembered. It is, once again, a function of our paradigms. See, the paradigm that feeds the myth-making only has the ability to see that which supports the myth, and is utterly and completely blind (and deaf) to that which doesn't. This was the first time in my life that I had confronted a "non-event" and evaluated it for its myth-making potential had it turned out differently. The potential is obviously great, and yet I became painfully aware in that moment that MY myth was dependent on THEIR cooperation, and this time, they didn't play.

How many times have we turned ordinary events into mythology, because we longed to imbue it with mystical, spiritual meaning? "Why do we do that?" he asked rhetorically. Because deep down inside, I believe we were all fragile in our confidence regarding our acceptability to God. We knew that He demanded perfection...and that we were not perfect. We knew that He could not tolerate the least degree of uncleaness...and we were spotted. We repented, we strove for perfection, we did our duty and upheld our standards, but because of our doubt, we sought hungrily for some degree of assurance that we were indeed acceptable in the eyes of the Lord. So on occassion, when you or I happened upon a moment or circumstance that could possibly, even remotely, be understood in the context of the great mystery, rather than attempt to understand it rationally, we CHOSE to understand it mystically, and thereby assure ourselves, and others around us, that God found us acceptable.

The spirit craves acceptance, because the alternative is terrifying. But since God is either all-accepting (because He is all loving) or He isn't there at all (you pick), that assurance is not forthcoming from on high, and therefore we have no alternative but to manufacture it ourselves. The Church, and all religion, helps us do that. It provides a context whereby we can frame our experiences, and interpret them according to the projections we wish to cast upon them. In so doing, it provides a hope, albeit ONLY a hope, that we will forever be okay. That we will return with honor, a faithul son or daughter who endured to the end.

Sigh...

I learned that night in an Albertsons parking lot that I was the myth-maker. And I was never really the same.

Paul


I have been thinking a lot about what you said here. I really think I undersatnd what you mean. One of the things you do as you join the church, is to start trying to follow the spirit in all you do. I thought this was an excersize in faith. Actually what I was doing was turning my thinking process over to someone, or something else. I do think there are times in life that we can be inspired, although they are probably much less often than the average church member thinks. Most of the time we have the right answer to a problem, or situation, in our heads, or hearts. If we use common sense, and follow our gut, and instincts, we will find that most of the time we are right in our assesments, and assumptions.

I chose the moniker of " Free Thinker" because I realized that I " followed the spirit' into mormonism only to find later that there is much I did not know about the history of the church. After learning the FACTS about Joseph Smith, I came to the conclusion that he could not have been a prophet of the God I was raised to beleive in. This God would never have tolerated Josephs behavior!

I choose now to think for myself. I will weigh in my mind anything I am told, and decide for myself. I will never surrender to something I do not understand until I have used all my mental capacity to figure it out. :cool:

Thanks for the great story!!

Free Thinker

[Born Free]

As I read the posts on this thread I am, once again, marveling at the profound importance of the patterns of growth that underlie all of the mythmaking tendencies and etc. Seeking to understand these patterns is what led me beyond Mormonism.

So, I stay angry at Boyd, Gordon, Tom and the rest. I see everyday the hurt they cause because they are afraid to seek a higher paradigm. It becomes obvious that there is no desire for growth, but for power and authority over other people. Exactly what we can expect for men who remain locked in a lower paradigm--a lower level of growth. The use of a social machine (the church) to extend and permanantize their power is godless.

Anyway, I needed to rant. Thanks

Ed

Ed,

Loved your take on the process, and the limitations of dichotomised thinking. I too have discovered Wilber's Integral Naked, and find it a slightly more meaty model than Mormonism, to say the least.

I was interested in your remark re anger, as I too work with people in a recovery setting, but am experiencing some frustration in moving beyond my own anger, which I know is not a productive place to get stuck, but appear to be missing something in my healing.

I too feel much of my anger is directed at the ongoing abuse. Good intentions are not sufficient. These people seem to actively hide from the consequences of the damage they do. I have read and loved your paper on the damage of shame on capacity for intimacy.

I loved it and passed it along to other therapists. One woman therapist found it a real help after she had an SDA client (who had heavy drug addictions) withdraw from therapy and 2 months later commit suicide. She said the client developed a resistence to the conclusions re the religion that therapy was surfacing. Instead of leaving that with the religion, the client appeared to project it onto the therapist in a near 'you are the devil trying to lead me away' schema.

It is heart rending to see the toxic damage these people create, and then when someone suicides or acts out in otehr destructive ways, like in this case, the Chruch says "See I told you that is what happens when you turn your back on God".

[Born Free]

Several models of growth (Loevinger's model of ego development, Miller's model of faith and Scott Peck's model of personal growth) boil down to 4 steps; chaos, followed by polarized thinking, followed by profound contemplation, followed by wisdom.

Ed

Ed

I have just referred to that process in a reply to an email elsewehere on site (titled Values and Worldview eased transition). I think that model is a very valuable one to help people feel more confident about what is beyond Mormonism (stage 2). I think Peck was where I first came across the notion that stage 3, looks like stage 1, from stage 2, because the discipline (of 3) is internal. Before you have developed that discipline, its apparent absence suggests impending chaos (hell), and that produces panic in some/many Mormons.

I have said in that posting that I believe that that developmental model might offer a great deal of meaning and comfort for those who are baulking at leaving stage 2. I work with a values tool in Australia and we have also found here that people baulk at leaving phase 3 for 4, fearing that the spirituality of 4 is the religiousity of stage 2.

I would be interested to explore that with you off line if possible.

[square_peg]

[So, I stay angry at Boyd, Gordon, Tom and the rest. I see everyday the hurt they cause because they are afraid to seek a higher paradigm. It becomes obvious that there is no desire for growth, but for power and authority over other people. Exactly what we can expect for men who remain locked in a lower paradigm--a lower level of growth. The use of a social machine (the church) to extend and permanantize their power is godless.

Ed[/QUOTE]

The only thing worse than being "locked in a lower paradgm" is....being locked in a lower paradigm AND perpetuating among your followers that it is the "RIGHT" place to be, and encouraging them to do the same.

In this way, the church system is a breeding ground for abusing power and authority (particularly among the men). Who wouldn't want to be idolized and almost "worshipped" in the way that the GA's are?

I am always impressed by the men who find their way out....and always surprised by the women who turn their heads to the demeaning doctrines and practices! (No, hearing the umpteenth General Women's Conference talk entitled, "We Value the Relief Society" doesn't do much for me....but then again, I expect actions to speak louder than words...)

How can members really expect the "Patriarchs" of individual families to do any less than to seek for (and practice) power and authority? How can we expect them to move to a higher level paradigm when that lower-level programming is all (some of them, anyway) they know...and see on a regular basis from "God's Special Witnesses".

So, (if you haven't noticed) I am still angry at Boyd, Gordon, & Tom too :mad: . Not so much for the part they have played in scripting my PAST...but, how they continue to exercise their influence in ways that affect my PRESENT, daily life. Even though post-mo in my mind, I feel the repercussions of their behavior every single day. And my children do, too. That is wrong.

Noelle

[silverfox]

Even though post-mo in my mind, I feel the repercussions of their behavior every single day. And my children do, too. That is wrong.

Noelle

Living in Utard or having TBM family, it's difficult to escape the feelings of anger, resentment, etc. I deal with bouts of anger from time to time. I often wonder if it will ever completely subside. I don't feel consumed by it like when I first left the church but I do have to deal with Mo'ism on a daily basis. It's "in your face" for the most part in Utard...if only in politics, it affects everyone. sigh

[wescape]

I live in Washington and Mormonism still angers me. Like Silverfox, it no longer consumes me but I believe that a total loss of anger towards Mormonism would be tragic. Anytime injustice and deception are being carried forth (especially in the name of God) we should be angry. Lose the anger, lose the passion to fight against injustice. However, I do believe it is helpful if the anger is accompanied by sadness as well. The combination of the two creates a good balance that can fuel a strong desire to fight injustice with compassion for those being deceived.

[flotsam]

Hi Folks,

During my meanderings amongst the dust-laden archives of the Post-Mo site, I have found many a treasure. I mean, this stuff dates back almost a year ago when the site was first founded - just when our venerable veterans like Peter_Mary, Silverfox, Daryl, Jeff, and Free Thinker were just cutting their teeth.

These posts are full of such heart that I want to ressurect a few of these threads to remind us of the grand places we've been.

Here's the first one. Read all the posts through, they're great.

[helemon]

The TBM would say that just because this clod of a husband wasn't in tune with the spirit or humble enough to accept the help God had directed to his door doesn't mean the promptings weren't genuine or that the need wasn't real. Clearly you should have asked the mother if she needed help or was concerned for the safety of here little ones. The husband was clearly too prideful to allow himself to admit that he needed the assistance of a strange man in the middle of the night. You didn't see the wife jabbing him in the ribs telling him to accept your generosity! :D

[hamar]

I'm thankful that this thread has been resurrected. It has strengthened my testimony of the community. So many learned folks sharing their knowledge here. It is very helphful and there is so much I'd like to share, but I just can't wrap my mind around it all and organize it into a "makes sense" process.

I've only just left TSCC, as many of you know, a few months ago and I'm still in a state of "controlled" chaos, I reckon. I choose to continue to believe in a higher power (God, for me) and his Son.

However, I have become, as Free Thinker; one who seeks other views and makes decisions based on my own research and gut feelings.

As P_M said in one of his posts, this community is a very good place for me to be. I gain a lot of learning and knowledge here. While I do reject some of it, I always learn and am helped in my own quest for, what I would characterize, as a balanced spirituality in my life.

I do now, and always have believed that we are most happy when we are serviing others. As I go forward, I am attempting to morph this belief system into my newly developing spirituality and determining how it will play out in my day to day interactions with others.

Ken Wilber is a little beyond my little mind to grasp, at the moment. I am, however, attempting to develop a more questioning mind, as exemplified in the philosophy of Socrates. I've also found some of Spong's essay's helpful.

I'm really not interested in moving "beyond" a belief in God and Christ, and believe that I can function very well, as good citizen of the world, without ejecting my belief in God and his Son. I just have to figure out who they are, exactly and how they fit together.

I'm workin onit, :Crazy: Thanks for all the insight.

Harry

[miss taken]

Thanks Flotsam, I didn't realise that this thread was so old, and I have not read it before.

My hubbie and I were out driving the other day, and we passed an elderly couple stopped on the side of a country road.

We passed by them, and my husband then kept asking questions. Do you think they are okay? Do you think they need help? (I think they reminded him of his mum and dad)

I said I didn't know. Do you think they are okay? This went on an on till we reached one of the small market towns.

Why don't you go back? I said. Do you think I should? he replied. It's up to you..!!!

Finally he turned the car round, and there they were still parked. Infact their tyre had burst and they had no mobile to phone anyone, so were totally reliant on us. They were both in their early 80's. Quite an elderly couple.

So my husband got out, fixed their car, put the spare tyre on, and the joy in their eyes and appreciation for what he had done was absolutely apparant. They thanked him profusely.

He came away, saying how good it had made him feel to do something for someone else in need. He came away edified, and the elderly couple drove off knowing that the world wasn't such a bad place.

Everyone benefitted. My husband is not religious at all, but he came away from that experience knowing that sometimes it just feels so good to do nice things for people that are genuinely in need.

Are those feelings from God? Who knows. But they feel good!!!

Mary

[bobcat]

This is a great thread, and I want to comment on it a little bit. First, with the "mythmakers" thing, that is pretty similar to what I experienced once while in the MTC in Brazil. I remember that I had never been one that "felt the spirit", i.e. I wasn't of the type to break down into tears at every mention of Jesus, Joseph, or temples. I had a more platonic relationship with my religion, and was content with that. But one time, during a particularly boring meeting the MTC (probably something about how Jesus will only love you if you wash your clothes every week), I decided to perform a spiritual experiment. I decided that I wanted to force myself to feel the spirit. I wanted that good feeling that eveyrone else had.

So, tugging at a few heartstrings and thinking about a few touching things (not all religiosly-oriented), I finally felt the burning in the bosom. I was thrilled! Then, being the cynic I am, I decided to try turning it "off" again. And that worked too. For the rest of the day (and even for a lot of my mission), I practiced turning the "Spirit" on and off like a faucet. Needless to say, after a while I figured out that it was ME, not anything external. And this realization was very enlightening and disturbing to me. When something as allegedly universal as the spirit becomes a mind trick, the ramifications are great.

I'm glad I've moved past such things though. I find that seeing things according to Nietzsche's "Master Morality" (noble vs. despicable actions) is more enlightening than seeing them in a "Slave Morality" view (that things are either divine or evil). Doing good for the sake of being a good person is a lot more rewarding then doing them in search of divine favour.

[free thinker]

Doing good for the sake of being a good person is a lot more rewarding then doing them in search of divine favour.


Just reading these words rings true to me. Authentic living resonates to everyone regardless of race, religion, nationality, and etc.


Well stated


ft

[miss taken]

I am reading the Gospel of Mary at the moment. (translated by Karen L King). There are 3 copies that have survived, none complete, and 2 just fragments.

It is really interesting, because Mary is recorded (Magdalene) as having heard Jesus teach that he disagreed with becoming slaves to law and dogma I guess, and that his way was one of true freedom, and that we could find the divine within. She is also saying that (In the ...if any say lo here or lo there...tradition) we shouldn't listen to others who say that they are the authority, but we should look for authority within ourselves...

It's good stuff.


Mary