Satan's boast

[helemon]

A line in the temple film always confused me (I know you are saying 'Just one!?' ;) ). It is when Satan says there are "none that dare molest or make afraid." Now why would this be a good thing in Satan's mind? I would think Satan would want fear and molestation to be rapant. :eek:
Shouldn't everyone be fearfully molesting each other if Satan was in power? Does it mean no one dares scare or molest Satan? But who was doing that prior to this boast? Is that why Satan rebelled against God? Was he the picked on littlest spirit brother that everyone treated like crap? Is that why he wanted to force everyone to behave? :confused:

[Born Free]

A line in the temple film always confused me (I know you are saying 'Just one!?' ;) ). It is when Satan says there are "none that dare molest or make afraid." Now why would this be a good thing in Satan's mind? I would think Satan would want fear and molestation to be rapant. :eek:
Shouldn't everyone be fearfully molesting each other if Satan was in power? Does it mean no one dares scare or molest Satan? But who was doing that prior to this boast? Is that why Satan rebelled against God? Was he the picked on littlest spirit brother that everyone treated like crap? Is that why he wanted to force everyone to behave? :confused:

It is so many years since I suffered through a Temple attendance, I have forgotten the context of these words.

Can you refresh me?

Daryl

[helemon]

It is so many years since I suffered through a Temple attendance, I have forgotten the context of these words.

Can you refresh me?

Daryl
This was more of an attempt at humor than a serious question but here you go:

http://www.irr.org/mit/endowment.html
It is right after Lucifer tries to get Adam to sell his tokens, which he refuses and is commended by Peter James and John. They leave and then you get the close up of Satan saying:
LUCIFER: Now is the great day of my power. I reign from the rivers to the ends of the earth. There is none who dares to molest, or make afraid.

I assume this is somehow saying that no one can stop him until the millenium or something? But it really is strange wording if that is the meaning.

[Born Free]

This was more of an attempt at humor than a serious question but here you go:

http://www.irr.org/mit/endowment.html
It is right after Lucifer tries to get Adam to sell his tokens, which he refuses and is commended by Peter James and John. They leave and then you get the close up of Satan saying:
LUCIFER: Now is the great day of my power. I reign from the rivers to the ends of the earth. There is none who dares to molest, or make afraid.

I assume this is somehow saying that no one can stop him until the millenium or something? But it really is strange wording if that is the meaning.
The drivel that came from JS's mouth or pen is always fascinating to scrutinize for what it says about him IMO.

"Now is the great day of my power, I reign from the rivers to the ends of the earth"

Ok here is an opportunity to get a glimpse into the mind of this man - about what he might get up to if he had unfettered power!

"There is none who dares to molest, or make afraid".

Now it gets interesting! Is it powerful people who molest and make afraid, or is this his fear (demons) speaking, i.e. that he is afraid that someone with power would molest him or make him afraid?

Two interesting possibilities!

We have other solid evidence that he abused power over people by molesting and making people fear. Was he merely projecting his guilt about his own behaviour, and potentialities onto Satan?

Or was this a person who had been made afraid and molested at some point in his life? Certainly there is evidence that he had been afraid at several points in his life - particularly with disease during his youth, and unanaethicised operations.

But where does this molestation theme come from? Of course we should remain open to the possibility that the word molest may be less about sexual molesting which we hear more about now, and more about "messing with", in a general sense. Certainly this latter is likely the way a power freak might feel if others were not prepared to let him have his way unfettered.

Is there any evidence he was sexually abused or intimidated as a child or youth? I am not aware of any claims to that effect, but that he was capable of abusing others, and would appear to have been insensitive to their experience, would suggest he was to a larger rather than lesser degree, narcissistic and self-obsessed.

I would be interested if others, whose Mormon history reading is broader than mine, have ever come across any suggestion that JS was the victim of abuse as a youth.

It just struck me after writing all the above that the Temple drivel may not have been writen by JS. Who do we know penned it? Maybe it's their head we should be double-guessing, not Smiths!

Daryl

[darkslider]

The drivel that came from JS's mouth or pen is always fascinating to scrutinize for what it says about him IMO.

"Now is the great day of my power, I reign from the rivers to the ends of the earth"

Ok here is an opportunity to get a glimpse into the mind of this man - about what he might get up to if he had unfettered power!

"There is none who dares to molest, or make afraid".

Now it gets interesting! Is it powerful people who molest and make afraid, or is this his fear (demons) speaking, i.e. that he is afraid that someone with power would molest him or make him afraid?

Two interesting possibilities!

We have other solid evidence that he abused power over people by molesting and making people fear. Was he merely projecting his guilt about his own behaviour, and potentialities onto Satan?

Or was this a person who had been made afraid and molested at some point in his life? Certainly there is evidence that he had been afraid at several points in his life - particularly with disease during his youth, and unanaethicised operations.

But where does this molestation theme come from? Of course we should remain open to the possibility that the word molest may be less about sexual molesting which we hear more about now, and more about "messing with", in a general sense. Certainly this latter is likely the way a power freak might feel if others were not prepared to let him have his way unfettered.

Is there any evidence he was sexually abused or intimidated as a child or youth? I am not aware of any claims to that effect, but that he was capable of abusing others, and would appear to have been insensitive to their experience, would suggest he was to a larger rather than lesser degree, narcissistic and self-obsessed.

I would be interested if others, whose Mormon history reading is broader than mine, have ever come across any suggestion that JS was the victim of abuse as a youth.

It just struck me after writing all the above that the Temple drivel may not have been writen by JS. Who do we know penned it? Maybe it's their head we should be double-guessing, not Smiths!

Daryl

As far as I have been able to tell, if there was abuse it was of the emotional kind and it came from his father. But, it was on a very mild scale (similar to your father always telling you that you would never amount to anything). I could be wrong. . . I could have missed something but that is the extent of abuse as far as I can find.

As for the Endowment ceremony. . . Joseph Smith stole it almost word for word from the Masonic Endowment.

It is fairly easy to see this in several different sources.

1. Joseph joins the Masons (supposedly for protection from Mobs).
2. Joseph receives his Masonic Endowment.
3. 30 days later Joseph receives the Temple Endowment via "revelation".
4. A large group of masons accused Joseph of stealing their ceremonies.

Circumstantial, I know, but I have had a very trustworth friend who is both Mason and Mormon and he has said that the similarities between them are so great that "Either the Masons stole it from Joseph or Joseph stole it from the Masons."

Take it for what you will.

[helemon]

"Either the Masons stole it from Joseph or Joseph stole it from the Masons."

Take it for what you will.
I know he stole the signs and tokens but I didn't think he stole the script. I don't recall a part in the temple film about Hyrum Abif.

[dogzilla]

"Either the Masons stole it from Joseph or Joseph stole it from the Masons."

Because the masons got started around the 15th century, I'm guessing Joseph stole it from them. (cite:http://www.freemason.org/cfo/march_april_2001/origins.htm)
Since the masons are that old of an organization, how is it circumstantial? I think it's blatantly obvious...

Anyway, I came in here to question the brag in the OP: "There is none who dares to molest, or make afraid".

Maybe it's just me, but from a semantics, and a grammatical point of view (my line of work), this is practically an incomplete sentence. (It's not truly: the sentence has a subject and a verb.) Rather, the thought seems to be incomplete, to me. I don't understand it.

There is none who dares to molest what? Or who? Same thing with "There is none who dares to make afraid"? Make who afraid of what, or who?

My head keeps swimming that statement around and around and I just can't make sense of it. I was going to sit here and read the entire temple ceremony, having not been through it (thank ALL the gods), but I realized that I have a deadline tomorrow and must get some work done - so I don't have time to ferret this out for myself. Can anybody offer and more context or clarification? These words, when you put them together in that order, do not seem to say anything at all.

[Inigo Montoya]
This word, I do not think it means what you think it means.
[/Inigo Montoya]

[helemon]

These words, when you put them together in that order, do not seem to say anything at all.

[Inigo Montoya]
This word, I do not think it means what you think it means.
[/Inigo Montoya]
Reading the other parts of the ceremony won't help. He says this as kind of a scary dramatic counterpoint to Peter complimenting Adam for staying faithful. So I guess the point was to scare members into not revealing their tokens similar to the blood signs that used to be a part of the ceremony. Perhaps the line should be that Satan has the power to molest you or make you afraid if you reveal temple secrets?

[dogzilla]

Thanks for the clarification. Makes a little sense now, but it's clearly horribly written. And this ceremony is supposedly "revealed" divine revelation, right? A ritual straight from the mouth of God.

So what you're telling me is: God needs a good editor? So much for omniscience.

:p