Different ways of leaving

[david]

Of course each of us has their own story of how they came to leave (or are leaving) Mormonism. For some the event was catyclismic. The scales fall from the eyes, so to speak, and the necessary course of action suddenly becomes clear. For others, it's an evolutionary process, sometimes taking years. There may not be one single event that comes to mind when recalling the process of leaving the church behind.

For what it's worth, I've noticed three patterns or groups that I think most of us would recognize.

The first is also the least remarkable. I would call it the path of apathy. I think it mostly applies to BIC teenagers who never develop a real "testimony". They simply aren't attracted to the restrictions and teachings of the church and fall away without any real spiritual struggle (although often there is severe family tension that results). Several of my corridor cousins and two of my siblings fall into this category. I think it must be especially prevalent outside the corridor, where the societal pressure to remain in the church is much smaller. (I grew up on the east coast and almost ditched the church for this reason when I was a young teenager. The family pressure was to much to bear and I stayed). I've noticed that when someone has left the church and later returns, this is often the pattern that occured.

I would also note that this pattern belongs to the Mormon stereotype of "falling away," where the poor member is seen as coming under the influence of satan and sin and loses his/her's worthiness. It is the least threatening pattern for TBM's to contemplate and thus is the overriding reason given to explain apostacy, regardless of the real facts.

The second pattern might be called the rational path. It has become quite prevalent because, while it is in many ways the most upsetting, it's also the most accessible. The facts of church history and mythology are increasingly available, and science continues to whittle away at the myth (some, like me, say it has demolished it). Back in my day, the late 70's, you had to be extremely committed academically to digging up dirt if you expected any success. Today with the help of the internet, you can easily find the truth. For many people the discoveries are profoundly upsetting. People sometimes compare the experience to a crumbling house of cards.

I will venture to say that this path leads to the most anger and results in the most difficult recovery. The more one has vested in the church the more devastating this path is. It's also the path that TBM's almost universally refuse to acknowledge in any sincere way because it is the most threatening .

The third path could be thought of as the spiritual path. On this path, one begins to ask larger questions about the nature of God and of goodness, of humankind's place in the cosmos, and the purpose of life. Although not always apparent, philosophy often figures into the struggle as well. Ultimately one must square one's own conclusions with the teachings of the church, and it is not surprising that church doctrine usually does not measure up.

This is certainly the most liberating path because it begins to consider tough epistimological questions, and and has the potential to point toward a meaningful reconstruction of reality.

It's interesting that this path often presents itself to those who have relocated. The breathing room that results from being in a new geographic space, and the break in pressure from peers and church callings often enables the mind to transcend the pettiness of mormon doctrine and gain a little perspective. Of course this positive tendency is sometimes countered by the negative tendency of dependency on the church/ward for social support in a new place.

I believe this path is rarely taken by older members because it involves an internal struggle and a shift in perspective. Because its occurence is inversely proportional to the amount of brainwashing that has been experienced, this path is most likely to be taken by younger adults, often (non-BYU) college students who's minds have been opened up by learning.

It's ironic that a substantial number of mormon missionaries actually experience this path during their missions. That is my story. I guess the church authorities didn't consider that complete spiritual immersion might give me the opportunity to arrive at a different conclusion--else they might have spared me the mission call and just had me marry and reproduce instead!

I left the church after completing my mission (shame required me to actually finish up). As for most everyone, my recovery was painful but left me a much better and happier person. Quite a few years later I got curious about church history and went on a binge at the library, and more recently on the internet, reading all the material I could find. Thus I embarked on path two, the rational path, long after having completed path three, the spiritual path. I'm glad things happened in that order.

Let me conclude by saying that my intention is not to package up the recovery process into little boxes. These are just some of my own observations and I would be interested to hear other's thoughts about how recovery takes place.
--David

[peter_mary]

I left the church after completing my mission (shame required me to actually finish up). As for most everyone, my recovery was painful but left me a much better and happier person. Quite a few years later I got curious about church history and went on a binge at the library, and more recently on the internet, reading all the material I could find. Thus I embarked on path two, the rational path, long after having completed path three, the spiritual path. I'm glad things happened in that order.

Let me conclude by saying that my intention is not to package up the recovery process into little boxes. These are just some of my own observations and I would be interested to hear other's thoughts about how recovery takes place.
--David

First, let me just say that I found this to be a very insightful post, and I think your three kinds of leaving are probably the principal ones we would all identify with.

I am inclined to believe that the people who leave the Church, but are "stuck" in a pattern of hurt, anger and hostility towards it, are likely the people who left because of "Pattern 2" (learning the history), but who never benefited from "Pattern 3" (a spiritual awakening). I know that the people I know who no longer struggle have found--or just as likely created--a new system for understanding the big questions and mysteries of life. For me, I became a student of "new science," finding important truths in the study of chaos, complexity, quantum physics and evolution, as well as an appreciation for the study of "real" history (as opposed to "faithful" history). When I coupled that with a study of Eastern thought, I created an eclectic mish-mash of a world-view and a cosmology that satisfies the yearnings of the spirit for meaning and understanding without sacrificing the demands of reason for coherance and facts.

I did Pattern 2 and Pattern 3 at the same time, and it allowed me to evolve in a positive direction, while I get the sense that those who haven't availed themselves to Pattern 3 are left with a giant void--they know that they can no longer go back to the Church because it means nothing to them any longer, but they have not replaced it with anything meaningful. I think that's where the real anger and frustration among much of the ex-Mormon community comes from.

For some, Pattern 3 is about aligning with a new religion. For others, like me, it really is about coming to peace with an alternate world-view, distinct from any religion, that simply satisfies the anxieties of the subconsious and conscious mind. Either way, it replaces the old with something new and leaves the sojourner intact and happy.

Again, David, thanks for the very insightful post!

Paul

[silverfox]

David, I never stopped to look at leaving the church in this respect. You offer an important summary.

I feel actually that Pattern 3 played a big part at first in my exit from the church. I never truly felt a strong spiritual sense as a member and I longed for that. So I had a void that needed to be filled. And so much of the church's explanations never made sense to me, although I was an obedient member really believing the church was true. In trying to fill that void I stumbled on church history which REALLY got the ball rolling along with me right out of the church.

Good stuff!

[free thinker]

David

Thank you for your post. I do believe that you are correct in your assumptions.

I am definately a number two person. I made a geographical move wich freed me up, and into the breech came a sense that something in my life just wasn't right. Frankly, and I do not want to be too embittered, I was sick of the church. Or maybe I was sick from it. Life had become so flat and one dimensional. At this time I did a google on something about the church, not sure what, and I came upon the book of abraham information. That lead to reading some other, non-anti-mormon, publications. Both were written by active members. Grant Palmer and Todd Compton. That was it for me. I realized the church was not what it purported to be.

I do think it is a good idea to fill a spiritual void, but I am hesitant at this point to align myself with any school of thought or denomination. I do believe in a higher power, or universal influence. I also believe in the common good of man. I want to be free to find truth and peace wherever it may be found!! :)

Free Thinker

[Born Free]

For what it's worth, I've noticed three patterns or groups that I think most of us would recognize.

The first is also the least remarkable. I would call it the path of apathy.

The second pattern might be called the rational path.

The third path could be thought of as the spiritual path.

Let me conclude by saying that my intention is not to package up the recovery process into little boxes. These are just some of my own observations and I would be interested to hear other's thoughts about how recovery takes place.
--David

David,

Thanks for taking the time to pull back and look for the big picture. Personally I find value in that perspective.

Having said that, let me 'mess with the model' or add some complexity.

I see my journey involving many of the above, with a splash of X rating, just as leavening. It is a journey that the TBMs find easiest to discount, and at the same time, has been a lesson in the power of the unconscious mind.

I was dragged to church when my mother joined when I was about 7. My father did not join until about 3 years later, when he 'got God' after a serious accident. We lived in a location somewhat distant from church numbers, so were odd fish with minimal support for many years and then in a small branch in a Mission.

The first serious glitch I can recall was when I started post-secondary management studies and doing psych. A great lecturer asked who were out internalised management ideals - sports coaches, teachers, mentors etc. When I reviewed the results I concluded that the style of leader I aspired to was a mentor, and in that moment realised how rarely I found that sort of leader within Mormonism which should have been the living example of perfection.

Over the years I experienced the gamut of church experience, Australian church experience I suspect being different from the Utard experience. We probably had less educated people, more ex-pommy (english) socialist types who might have clashed with strong pro-capitalist types out of the US. Obviously more converts, and we had the advantage/curse of being a long way from Salt Lake/Zion.

My mode of exit was an amalgum of all the styles you identified above: I could not muster the enthusiasm and testimony of my convert parents, and early on felt guilty because of that. I did come from a left of centre family, so we were well read, and not afraid to be different when massive pressures to confirm came on, so there were good doses of the rational. And we increasing felt at odds with the heavy hand of coersion (we are baby boomers), particulary as we approached the spiritual wake up call of mid life.

But with all that, I was the eldest son of fairly high profile Mormons both in the Church district and the community, so I felt trapped in a space that I knew wasn't working for me, but could not see a clear and viable exit path.

I believe that I resolved my dilema on the unconscious level eventually - I had an affair.

OK, the cynics will be rolling around the floor at this point in fits of laughter at this tidy Freudian excuse for lust! I can live with that.

It was not as simple as that. Sexuality was a part of the pain and confusion for me, and I still have a profound interest in the intersection, even insepatability of sexuality and spirituality. This arose from the reality that my family-of-origin issues were deeply intertangled with Church stuff. My parents were not attracted to Mormonism in a vacuum. I am sure that its simple position on families, gender roles, and sexuality were attractive to my parents, as an quick fix to far more complex issues.

So eventaully I found myself before a Church Court for my actions. I chose to attend. I declared accurately my complete indifference to the Church and that I had experienced more spiritual experience elsewhere, so the decision was that, as my parents had joined the church and I had no personal testimany then they would ex me, and if I wanted back in, then that would be my commitment.

I walked out the door and never looked back.

Never missed it. But about 10 years later when I got on the internet, I stumbled across the DNA/Indian issue, and that started a wider search, which covered the angry exs, the born-again Christain exs, and neither worked for me. This sites philosophy of seeing Moism as not wrong, just restricted, does fit with my beliefs and experience.

That said I still feel anger that I endured so many years of pain, and confusion, and that many important decisions in life were tainted by the impact of Moism. I am not comfortable with my residual anger, and would like to transmute into something healthier.

So that is what one mixed exit path with the x rated bits thrown in looks like. Sort of Mixed with Spices or Sauce, if you like!

I sometimes wish it were more noble, more decisive, and presented a less easy target for good Mormons wanting to dismiss my challenge, but it is what it is, and these days I find honesty more viable that 'nice'. Plus I have found that real life rarely is tidily wrapped in a box with a neat string around it, and that is OK.

I might add that I learnt some of the most powerful lessons in the affair, which I had failed to learn in my head elsewehere. Just that simple notion is a horrific challenge to Moism, and many of the little minds that inhabit it. My marriage survived, and is much, much stronger now than it was before, so don't ever get the notion in your head that an affair automatically must spell the end of a good marriage. In fact it can mean the beginning of a better one!

[peter_mary]

STURGDW,

I THOROUGHY appreciated your post on your exit story, with the color and spice included! But aside from just appreciating it, this little bit really meant a lot to me...


I might add that I learnt some of the most powerful lessons in the affair, which I had failed to learn in my head elsewehere. Just that simple notion is a horrific challenge to Mosim, and many of the little minds that inhabit it.

In my mind, this is one of THE most powerful lessons that can be learned when we escape the sin and salvation model of Mormonism et al. The simple recognition that the times we make choices inconsistent with our own values CAN serve to be our most important teachers. Rather than "damn us to hell," they can lift us up to places we never would have known otherwise. That's not to suggest we should go looking for trouble, so to speak, but when we find ourselves in it, and we all do, we should feel safe enough in our place in the universe to evaluate and learn from it, rather than be crushed or frightened by it.

Thanks so much for thoughts!

Paul

[free thinker]

David,

Thanks for taking the time to pull back and look for the big picture. Personally I find value in that perspective.

Having said that, let me 'mess with the model' or add some complexity.

I see my journey involving many of the above, with a splash of X rating, just as leavening. It is a journey that the TBMs find easiest to discount, and at the same time, has been a lesson in the power of the unconscious mind.

I was dragged to church when my mother joined when I was about 7. My father did not join until about 3 years later, when he 'got God' after a serious accident. We lived in a location somewhat distant from church numbers, so were odd fish with minimal support for many years and then in a small branch in a Mission.

The first serious glitch I can recall was when I started post-secondary management studies and doing psych. A great lecturer asked who were out internalised management ideals - sports coaches, teachers, mentors etc. When I reviewed the results I concluded that the style of leader I aspired to was a mentor, and in that moment realised how rarely I found that sort of leader within Mormonism which should have been the living example of perfection.

Over the years I experienced the gamut of church experience, Australian church experience I suspect being different from the Utard experience. We probably had less educated people, more ex-pommy (english) socialist types who might have clashed with strong pro-capitalist types out of the US. Obviously more converts, and we had the advantage/curse of being a long way from Salt Lake/Zion.

My mode of exit was an amalgum of all the styles you identified above: I could not muster the enthusiasm and testimony of my convert parents, and early on felt guilty because of that. I did come from a left of centre family, so we were well read, and not afraid to be different when massive pressures to confirm came on, so there were good doses of the rational. And we increasing felt at odds with the heavy hand of coersion (we are baby boomers), particulary as we approached the spiritual wake up call of mid life.

But with all that, I was the eldest son of fairly high profile Mormons both in the Church district and the community, so I felt trapped in a space that I knew wasn't working for me, but could not see a clear and viable exit path.

I believe that I resolved my dilema on the unconscious level eventually - I had an affair.

OK, the cynics will be rolling around the floor at this point in fits of laughter at this tidy Freudian excuse for lust! I can live with that.

It was not as simple as that. Sexuality was a part of the pain and confusion for me, and I still have a profound interest in the intersection, even insepatability of sexuality and spirituality. This arose from the reality that my family-of-origin issues were deeply intertangled with Church stuff. My parents were not attracted to Mormonism in a vacuum. I am sure that its simple position on families, gender roles, and sexuality were attractive to my parents, as an quick fix to far more complex issues.

So eventaully I found myself before a Church Court for my actions. I chose to attend. I declared accurately my complete indifference to the Church and that I had experienced more spiritual experience elsewhere, so the decision was that, as my parents had joined the church and I had no personal testimany then they would ex me, and if I wanted back in, then that would be my commitment.

I walked out the door and never looked back.

Never missed it. But about 10 years later when I got on the internet, I stumbled across the DNA/Indian issue, and that started a wider search, which covered the angry exs, the born-again Christain exs, and neither worked for me. This sites philosophy of seeing Moism as not wrong, just restricted, does fit with my beliefs and experience.

That said I still feel anger that I endured so many years of pain, and confusion, and that many important decisions in life were tainted by the impact of Moism. I am not comfortable with my residual anger, and would like to transmute into something healthier.

So that is what one mixed exit path with the x rated bits thrown in looks like. Sort of Mixed with Spices or Sauce, if you like!

I sometimes wish it were more noble, more decisive, and presented a less easy target for good Mormons wanting to dismiss my challenge, but it is what it is, and these days I find honesty more viable that 'nice'. Plus I have found that real life rarely is tidily wrapped in a box with a neat string around it, and that is OK.

I might add that I learnt some of the most powerful lessons in the affair, which I had failed to learn in my head elsewehere. Just that simple notion is a horrific challenge to Moism, and many of the little minds that inhabit it. My marriage survived, and is much, much stronger now than it was before, so don't ever get the notion in your head that an affair automatically must spell the end of a good marriage. In fact it can mean the beginning of a better one!


This is one of the things I like about this site. Real people being real!! Life is messy business. There is much to learn from any mistake!! Thank you for this story about your life! I enjoyed reading it. ;)

Free Thinker

[Born Free]

STURGDW,

In my mind, this is one of THE most powerful lessons that can be learned when we escape the sin and salvation model of Mormonism et al. The simple recognition that the times we make choices inconsistent with our own values CAN serve to be our most important teachers. Rather than "damn us to hell," they can lift us up to places we never would have known otherwise. That's not to suggest we should go looking for trouble, so to speak, but when we find ourselves in it, and we all do, we should feel safe enough in our place in the universe to evaluate and learn from it, rather than be crushed or frightened by it.

Thanks so much for thoughts!

Paul

Hi All,

Thanks for the feedback. A little honesty goes a long way, doesn't it?

My mind goes back to the Church Court, and the parties in the room, ranging from those whose timid mindsets could not countenance such an act to the more interesting, those who seemed to be caught between a hard-on and being God. One was a police officer outside the room, a little fascist in his own home, I was to later learn. And he was so enthusiastic (orgiastic) about performing this, Oh so important, task.

The complete ignorance of things like projection, enable many of these people to maintain the energy. Nothing quite like having God on your side (and getting a bit titilated at the same time). But then again, that is an old Mormon tradition, coded into the DNA from its founder.

[nikki]

Hi All,

Thanks for the feedback. A little honesty goes a long way, doesn't it?

My mind goes back to the Church Court, and the parties in the room, ranging from those whose timid mindsets could not countenance such an act to the more interesting, those who seemed to be caught between a hard-on and being God. One was a police officer outside the room, a little fascist in his own home, I was to later learn. And he was so enthusiastic (orgiastic) about performing this, Oh so important, task.

The complete ignorance of things like projection, enable many of these people to maintain the energy. Nothing quite like having God on your side (and getting a bit titilated at the same time). But then again, that is an old Mormon tradition, coded into the DNA from its founder.

I find it amazing that people subject themselves to a church court, (not, that I do not understand people attending their's), but beyond than that, the damage church courts can have on the people attending and their spouse.

The issue of difficulties within in the frame work of marital partners in resolving a critical issue in the marriage, is painful and difficult enough, without the added strain during this time of the acting body of a 'church court'.

Let's be honest men can be as bad gossips as women, and the confidences of church courts do leak out into general church membership at times. Which makes it worse for the couple to work out issues between themselves.

I heard an interesting story several years ago, a woman in the church wanted to start a group to pressure the church to accept per-martial sex. She was calling several people she felt open to such a thing. I was amazed when I heard of these calls.

My thinking was pretty simple, uhmm..., why did she wish to 'start a group' on such a matter, was it to try to sancation something she was wanting to do? Was she trying to keep one foot safe in the chruch and one foot out?

Heck, I thought as an adult she could make her own decision on the issue, and not bother with the church if she did not agree with the issue, gosh, be an adult (and she was an adult and not a teen or child). It also seemed like there were far more serious issues like, the cover up of child sexual abuse and rape.

IMHO the church needs to give up the 'church court' issue, except to ex members for sexual abuse of women and children, and other crimes, and that is after the police and law enforcement is done with the person.

Civil law first---Church court last---not the other way!

[silverfox]

Civil law first---Church court last---not the other way!

Amen, Sister!

I would never subject myself to a "court of love". No way.

I live in a small town and our stake prez is a major Nazi wannabe JERK. To avoid any such chance of there being a court of love regarding my apostacy and openess about it (dialogue with mishies when they were sent to my home, etc), I mailed in my resignation letter. Mostly to avoid rumors that may impact my children. (you gotta love living in Zion)

I am vocal about my beliefs and I understand it's when you are vocal and share your disbeliefs with anyone other than family members then you can be subjected to a court of love. I wasn't going to give my stake prez the pleasure of having any more control over me. I think it's silly to even have to request in a formal manner to have your name removed.

I know this isn't always an option for a lot of members, though.

[Born Free]

I find it amazing that people subject themselves to a church court, (not, that I do not understand people attending their's), but beyond than that, the damage church courts can have on the people attending and their spouse.

Civil law first---Church court last---not the other way!

Nikki,

I may be hornery, but it was the last act of 'up your nose' for me/us. I saw it as there was no way I was wimpering away with my tail between my legs. But more importantly, it was an act of self-assertion, to say "I am what I am. If I am going some place different, I have to be honest and fully conscious that this is where the journey starts". Keep in mind, I am a bit of an adrenalin junky :)

Even though we both were due for The Court, of course my wife was due before a Bishops Court. (If Mormon women ever want to check what their real status is, this is one test. They are answerable to the same Court as a teenage male. So see it for what it is and don't flinch!)

As we had to travel over an hour for the Court, they decided we could both go before (here I am rusty) I guess a High Priests Court, anyway whatever had to try me as a MP holder.

Out came the old misogeny! I could sit in on her Court, but not she on mine. "Not B likely was her response. Either we can both be there for the other, or we walk!" We got our way. (I love my gutsy lady! She has had more than her share of power intoxicated Male Mormon Jerks in her time. Like the Bishop who while interviewing her for a sexual indiscretion as a vulnerable young woman, and tried to be sexual with her.

She saw him recently at her mother's funeral, and he was a very anxious puppy. By his timidity around us both, I would place money on that he has never sorted out his behaviour and is still as guilty as all hell. Mind you he has served any number of senior Church callings since.

I have encouraged her to initiate a Church disciplinary action against him for other people's safety, but she chooses not to. Her call, and not approariate for me to step across the boundary.)

The other part of the whole process that is educative, is to see how differently some people treat one after. We might as well have had leprosy for some people. But we were never distressed; more sad for people whose maturity was so retarded. And clearly real friends don't behave like that! They are there through thick and thin. But some of those people won't even look you in the eye, can you believe!

In saying all the above, I do acknowledge that we were both ready to leave at the same time, and I am sure that was a great help.

[nikki]

Nikki,

I may be hornery, but it was the last act of 'up your nose' for me/us. I saw it as there was no way I was wimpering away with my tail between my legs. But more importantly, it was an act of self-assertion, to say "I am what I am. If I am going some place different, I have to be honest and fully conscious that this is where the journey starts". Keep in mind, I am a bit of an adrenalin junky :)

Even though we both were due for The Court, of course my wife was due before a Bishops Court. (If Mormon women ever want to check what their real status is, this is one test. They are answerable to the same Court as a teenage male. So see it for what it is and don't flinch!)

As we had to travel over an hour for the Court, they decided we could both go before (here I am rusty) I guess a High Priests Court, anyway whatever had to try me as a MP holder.

Out came the old misogeny! I could sit in on her Court, but not she on mine. "Not B likely was her response. Either we can both be there for the other, or we walk!" We got our way. (I love my gutsy lady! She has had more than her share of power intoxicated Male Mormon Jerks in her time. Like the Bishop who while interviewing her for a sexual indiscretion as a vulnerable young woman, and tried to be sexual with her.

She saw him recently at her mother's funeral, and he was a very anxious puppy. By his timidity around us both, I would place money on that he has never sorted out his behaviour and is still as guilty as all hell. Mind you he has served any number of senior Church callings since.

I have encouraged her to initiate a Church disciplinary action against him for other people's safety, but she chooses not to. Her call, and not approariate for me to step across the boundary.)

The other part of the whole process that is educative, is to see how differently some people treat one after. We might as well have had leprosy for some people. But we were never distressed; more sad for people whose maturity was so retarded. And clearly real friends don't behave like that! They are there through thick and thin. But some of those people won't even look you in the eye, can you believe!

In saying all the above, I do acknowledge that we were both ready to leave at the same time, and I am sure that was a great help.

I can understand for you it was an 'up your nose'. Last defiance in their face thing, and not wimping out. For your it was the right thing to do.

But for some, they may not as emotionally centered it can be emotionally damaging for them, the single mother to be who is out of wed lock, teenagers which have had some problems, and other sistuations, the church court can be very harmful. For some marriages, the church court could destroy any possiblity of making repairs with their spouse.

For other people , just not caring what they think and not showing up for the 'court of love' might be the answer.

Besides, most all the people in positions in church courts have little education or understanding of others, and are there to perform their 'godly service', and to heck what harm comes, except of course when it comes using the courts to cover up crimes, the church does not want out.

For the most part in adult life, I have found LDS people do not make good friends, unless they are partners in crime. Maybe one day when we can leave this area, we will be able to meet people who can be friends, but it is not going to be here. There is rebuilding to do, that is for sure.

[Born Free]

For the most part in adult life, I have found LDS people do not make good friends, unless they are partners in crime. Maybe one day when we can leave this area, we will be able to meet people who can be friends, but it is not going to be here. There is rebuilding to do, that is for sure.

Nikki,

Many people here have remarked on making better friendships postMo. In my belief, that is not accidental. Follow my reasoning.

Close observation and most models of stages of growth I know that are based in science, have the religious phase of development as one where:

Mask wearing is common
Behaviour is motivated by desire for approval and acceptance
Much behaviour is fear-motivated

Think the implications of that through. It precludes real vulnerability because one is always offering others what one things others will like, rather than being authentic.

Can a real friendship be based upon such a shaky foundation? Deep friendships are places to spill out our deepest desires and fears, to be heard and not judged.

The best illustration of this came in a conversation with a Mormon acquaintance. He said "Never go into business with Mormons. It always turns to disaster." What that said about the inherent trustiworthiness of Mormons as a group, seemed to elude him. Can you imagine spending eternity surrounded by such people, if you can't even trust them in business?

I have this mad irish catholic friend who attended a RS quilting activity with a Mormon friend (of the more broadminded variety). She pinpricked herself, and semi-audibly exclaimed "Shi#". Her remark drew numerous furrowed brows from those within earshot.

She leaned across to the Mormon friend and whispered "Wow, glad I didn't say #uck!"

Back on Courts of Luuuuuuuuuuv. I do not propose for one moment that my/our way is for everyone. They knew they had someone in me who would not kiss butt, so surprise, surprise, I was treated with some respect.

I know of young married couple who fessed up to premarital activity who came before the same president, with no local family support or power base, whose indiscresion was much less heinous than ours, and he roasted them.

I cannot recall the author of the quote along the lines "The ultimate test of a gentleman, is how he treats those who can do absolutey nothing for him." Most these power junkies are at heart very small, powerless, pathetic individuals. They must be sooooooooo brave to beat up on the powerless.

Many can't even follow the rule book. A friend who is a law graduate, and studied the Church Court system closely said that 'defendents' are supposed to have recourse to a robust defence. How many defendents are aware of that or get assigned sturdy defence? (Bummer that! Might slow down some of the wild projection.)

The treatment most get is reminscent of the jokes we used to have about military courts, where the court proceedings started with the judge exclaiming "March the guilty bastard in!" Any pretence of innocence until proven guilty was absent.

Daryl

[silverfox]

Can a real friendship be based upon such a shaky foundation? Deep friendships are places to spill out our deepest desires and fears, to be heard and not judged.

The best illustration of this came in a conversation with a Mormon acquaintance. He said "Never go into business with Mormons. It always turns to disaster." What that said about the inherent trustiworthiness of Mormons as a group, seemed to elude him. Can you imagine spending eternity surrounded by such people, if you can't even trust them in business?


Daryl

Agreed! As Mo's we fought daily to be something that was impossible. Perfect. Because it was expected, no excuses! Because we were reaching for an impossible goal we felt there was always something "wrong" with us. I think the majority of members compare themselves to others but not realizing they only see the "mask", as you mentioned and not the real person. So our perception of how we SHOULD be is distorted.

We blame ourselves for not being good enough, not experiencing positive reactions to church, etc, etc. We are conditioned to believe everything's our fault because we don't pray enough, fast enough, read scriptures enough (even if you are doing it 24/7!)

Everyone else seems to put on a good show and they appear more "perfect". Because of this we limit ourselves and are unable to have deep friendships for fear the real "truth" will come out. WE AREN'T PERFECT. We can't have anyone know that! So for the most part that's as deep as friendships get. We never truly know each other.

I've tried. I decided about 6 years ago I was going to be myself. I began to ask my questions, debate church doctrine (remember when the piercing and tattoo speec came out?? WTF?) refuse to give lessons I didn't agree with. And thus, I alienated myself. I wasn't beligirent and always presented my questions or opinions in a respectful way. But it scared the holy chit out of other members. It was foreign. They were afraid that associating with ME (although I was a kind, generous, giving, would do anything for you type of person) would reflect on them. I ended up with no walking partners, not invited to parties, BBQs, etc, etc.

The most valuable thing I learned here - who my true "friends" were. I've continued to be my same self...always offering to help where I see needed, inviting others over for BBQs, etc, etc. It's not reciprocated anymore but that's okay. My emotional needs have changed and I am able to stand alone. I don't need as much validation from others anymore.