Map of Cities around Palmyra and BoM

[helemon]

I asked the fair boards about the map at:
http://www.uwec.edu/Geography/Ivogeler/w188/utopian/mormon-place-names.htm

I was told to read the Farm response which argues that the map must be bogus because:
"some of the New England cities were not even incorporated entities prior to 1830"

So I thought I would check some other towns in the area to see when they were "incorporated".

http://kirtlandohio.com/city/ABOUT-HIST.htm
"First a township, Kirtland achieved village status in 1970 and was incorporated into a city in 1971"

Wow, then I guess we better toss out anything in our Mormon history that talks about Kirtland, OH because clearly it never existed prior to 1971!!

http://www.palmyrany.com/history.htm#brief
"An act to incorporate the Village of Palmyra was passed by the legislature on March 29,1827, however, the charter did not reach Palmyra in time for the election of trustees on the first Monday of May. As a consequence, the charter was amended in January, 1828 and the first Village Board meeting was held on February 8,1828."

http://www.lds.org/churchhistory/history
"In the spring of 1820, Joseph Smith Jr. retired to the woods near his home in Palmyra, New York, and offered a simple prayer to our Father in Heaven."

Therefore the account of the first vision is CLEARLY a lie since Palmyra was not incorporated until 1828!! :D

[papa]

that map is fascinating, thanks.

[dogzilla]

That map bugs the crap out of me.

I'm from Ohio. Grew up about 3 hours southwest of Kirtland. (About where the second "O" from "OHIO" is on those maps.)

First, The scale is ALL wrong. Totally. Ohio, in this map is about half the width that it actually is.

Second, the place names are a tad suspect. I just finished watching "500 Nations" on the History Channel. It was a series done on the history of American Indians in North America. Oneida (also known for china, or silverware, or something like that) is the name of one of the five Iroquois tribes who lived in central New York. On the map, you can see little lakes just to the left of Oneida. Those were called the "Finger Lakes" (or something like that) and there were five Indian tribes (these were the ones with the longhouses) who united and made a peace treaty not to slaughter each other, forming the larger tribe known as Iroquois.

As we all know from the DNA studies, the Iroquois have Asian genes... not Hebrew genes. None of these supposed BOM place names are Herbrew words or have Hebrew origins. They are all American Indian words/origins.

Finally. Ohio was made a state in 1803. Prior to that, 1787, the Northwest Territory was formed which included Ohio, Illinois, Indiana, Michigan and Wisconsin. New York became a state in 1788, as it was the 11th of the original 13 colonies. Ohio University was chartered in 1804 (in a bar in Boston) as the first major university in the Northwest Territory. (Guess which Postmo is an alumna of Ohio U.?) It was located in Southeastern Ohio and the city (Athens) should have appeared on the lower map as well as about a couple dozen other places... like Pittsburgh (would have been Ft. Duquesne before 1750s) and Cleveland that should also be there -- those places existed LONG before the First Vision.

My point: this area was fairly well populated long before JS & his crew arrived on the scene to re-write and revise its history. I don't know what the supposed origins of it are, or how the FAIR people get to their sense of logic. I just see the whole thing: story of the first vision all the way down to this particular map, as hogwash. Utter garbage.

[free thinker]

I just see the whole thing: story of the first vision all the way down to this particular map, as hogwash. Utter garbage.


Hey Dogzilla.

The best description I have heard to date describing this mormon information was by an egyptologist as he was asked to give his opinion concerning the Book of Abraham. In comparing it to what was actually on the papyrus. He called it A FARAGO OF NONSENSE.


When I first read about some of this information it becamse so very clear to me that it was contrived. Then I read some of the apologetic information and I can only describe what feeling came alive in me.

CONFUSION.

The apologists take what really is very simple, and add layers of obfuscation, and mind bending that require mental gymnastics. When you step back and just look at it simply, and clearly, you can see what Joseph Smith was doing. He was just creating a religion. Pretty simple really. If you dont have an agenda it is really easy to see.

Free Thinker

[dogzilla]

Hey Dogzilla.

The best description I have heard to date describing this mormon information was by an egyptologist as he was asked to give his opinion concerning the Book of Abraham. In comparing it to what was actually on the papyrus. He called it A FARAGO OF NONSENSE.


When I first read about some of this information it becamse so very clear to me that it was contrived. Then I read some of the apologetic information and I can only describe what feeling came alive in me.

CONFUSION.

The apologists take what really is very simple, and add layers of obfuscation, and mind bending that require mental gymnastics. When you step back and just look at it simply, and clearly, you can see what Joseph Smith was doing. He was just creating a religion. Pretty simple really. If you dont have an agenda it is really easy to see.

Free Thinker

::puts down dictionary::

Well, I don't know what "farago" means, but I'm with that guy, 100%. (And yes, I keep a dictionary right next to me. I'm an editor. I post from work. Tools of the trade. So sue me! Oh, and before Peter_Mary nails me: There are 800,000 words in the English language. One person can't possibly know 'em all. ;) )

I think you're right: it's pretty obvious that JS, like Ann Coulter, was just making s**t up.

[helemon]

My point: this area was fairly well populated long before JS & his crew arrived on the scene to re-write and revise its history. I don't know what the supposed origins of it are, or how the FAIR people get to their sense of logic. I just see the whole thing: story of the first vision all the way down to this particular map, as hogwash. Utter garbage.

Um, the map is not from FAIR. The origins of the map apparently are from Holley's work to prove where Joseph may have gotten the names of some of the cities in the BoM. FAIR tried to discount it by saying the towns on the map did not exist prior to the writing of the BoM because they had not been "incorporated" which is a bogus arguement since Kirtland was not "incorporated" until 1971 yet they don't dispute its existence.

The purpose of the map is not to provide a map of all the existing towns in the area. Nor was it meant to be a completely cartographically acurate map. It's purpose was to show that there were towns around Palmyra that had similar or identical names to those used by JS in the Book of Mormon. It is not an attempt by FAIR to prove the LGT. :slap: Sorry, that was meant in the friendliest possible way. :D

[dogzilla]

I understand all that, helemon. I just think it's a stupid map.

:p

(Could you slap me again? Please?) ;)

[miss taken]

Helemon, great that you researched this further, I wondered about its authenticity in terms of whether those place names really did exist in 19th century America.

So, what FAIR are saying is its bogus - full stop, but their reasoning doesn't appear to be good from what you are saying. Did you go back to them with your thoughts???

Mary

[helemon]

(Could you slap me again? Please?)

:slap: :slap: :slap:
Ok that's enough. I am a married man after all. ;)

[helemon]

Helemon, great that you researched this further, I wondered about its authenticity in terms of whether those place names really did exist in 19th century America.

So, what FAIR are saying is its bogus - full stop, but their reasoning doesn't appear to be good from what you are saying. Did you go back to them with your thoughts???

Mary

Yes I did post what I found about Palmyra and Kirtland to show that date of incorporation is no indication of when a town was first settled. As far as I am aware no one has responded to that post. :D

I have researched a few of the cities on mapquest just to make sure they are actually there. I haven't tried to figure out when all of them were settled. I suspect that could take some time and might not be on the web. But the fact that everyone I have checked is in fact a city in the general area where the map says it is makes me think they are genuine. Besides are we supposed to believe that all these towns on the map were founded by Mormons after the publication of the BoM? Highly doubtful since the Mormons were a relatively small band when they were in that area. Not of a size to go about founding a couple dozen cities. They had a hard enough time founding and maintaining one city let alone all the ones on the map!

[free thinker]

Well, I don't know what "farago" means, but I'm with that guy, 100%. (And yes, I keep a dictionary right next to me. I'm an editor. I post from work. Tools of the trade. So sue me! Oh, and before Peter_Mary nails me: There are 800,000 words in the English language. One person can't possibly know 'em all. )


Here is the definition of farrago. And I had it spelled wrong.


n : a motley assortment of things [syn: odds and ends, oddments, melange, ragbag, hodgepodge, mishmash, mingle-mangle, hotchpotch, omnium-gatherum]


Now isn't that perfect for the BoA? See, a farrago of nonsense!!

Kinda like John Kerry's political campaign!!! :D

Free Thinker

[helemon]

Kinda like John Kerry's political campaign!!! :D

Free Thinker

More like the farrago of evidence foisted on the world by Bush and his buddies to convince us to go to war with Iraq!! :slap: :duh

[helemon]

Has anyone read this book yet?
http://www.bookofmormonlands.com/link%20one.htm

[helemon]

Has anyone read this book yet?
http://www.bookofmormonlands.com/link%20one.htm

http://www.bookofmormonlands.com/link%20three.htm
"the historical records of those territories show the Nahuas (those commonly believed to be the Nephites by the LDS community) entered the scene not in 600 B.C. when the Book of Mormon says that Lehi entered the promised land, but a full three centuries later, with various other colonies of Nahuatl speaking peoples (the extended family of Lehi), namely the Toltecs, so named for their artistic skills (also Nephites), the Chichimecs, the more barbarous branch of the family (the Lamanites), and the Aztecs, the most apostate of them all (a combined group of both Lamanite and apostate Nephites), migrating southward throughout the centuries following.
The old books and hieroglyphic writings constantly refer to those of the Nahuatl Race as having come from a distant northeastern country and are credited with bringing the arts of civilized living to the natives of the southern territories. Such legends along with skull types, the language spoken, and other critical similarities, have led many scholars to conclude that the early Toltec civilizers of Mexico and Central America were the original Mound Builders of the northeastern United States. Unfortunately, the LDS community has heard little of this fact."