Sexuality, Spirituality, Gender Work and Authenticity

[Born Free]

With the Mo meaning(less) framework out of the way, what other 'work' inspired you and created meaning?

As I read Ed's posting on Stages - 10, I noted his enthusiasm about the book Aphrodite's Daughters, so went to check it out on Amazon. It will be joining my long list of books to be read.

As I read the reviews of that book, I was struck that I seemed to be hearing women say something approximating what I see and experience in good men's work. So I wondered how many of the regulars here have found some form of gender-specific work an important and valuable part of their post-Mo redefining of meaning?

As I recall various things Dogzilla has shared, her Wicca interest I am guessing fits largely in this area?

So my questions are these:

How many of you have done some/much gender work and how important has that been to you?

Do you feel that seeing the link between sexuality and spirituality has been part of that?

What aspect of your Mo experience did that help heal (if any)?

I only recall one other guy here speak of Bly, but it was not clear whether they were involved in men's work. Any others drinking at that well?

Daryl (the Inquisitor)

[free thinker]

I only recall one other guy here speak of Bly, but it was not clear whether they were involved in men's work. Any others drinking at that well?


Hey Daryl

First, I love the new avatar, and the new name. Hey man you've been given a new name!!!


I am the one who read Bly " Iron John". This book changed my life in many ways. Having said that, I have never done any gender work other than the thoughts in my life that came from Bly's book.

I am aware that there is great self discovery in gender specific work though.

Possibly relationships with the opposite sex can only be complete if we have learned to blend well with our own gender. Mentoring or just good old fashioned buddies.


Free Thinker



Free Thinker

[aether]

Agh! Aphrodite's Daughters! I read that book! You will absolutely love it. It is a beautiful, authentic book about sexuality, unlike anything I've ever read. The women in that book who tell their stories are so strong and wise, and sometimes what they say is heartbreaking, but it's all said to the effect that a woman's sexuality and her spirituality are entwined. I think EVERY woman should this book, and probably every man too. It will help anyone get over the stifling rules that the LDS church gives sexuality.

I haven't participated in any "gender work" at all, I don't think... of course I've never even heard the term before. Then of course, I never felt that my feminism was being downplayed, while I was in the LDS church. Some of you might say that's because I was brainwashed, and perhaps I was a little bit. I can see things more clearly now to realize how women are portrayed in the church. But growing up I had excellent YW leaders, bishops and priesthood leaders that were very respectful of women. Women were pretty much just as respected in my ward as Hinckley says they are everywhere. It's been quite a shock to me to learn some of the views of women, especially when it comes to abuse.

I have these lurking suspicions now of my ward.. I wonder now if that kind of thing was going on all the time and I just never saw it. But I really think people are earnest when it comes to their beliefs. They really don't see that the church's attitude is destructive to women. All the women I talk to "know" that having children and taking care of their husband is their sacred duty, and that anything else would be an insult to the Lord. I mean, that's fine if the women really want to spend their whole lives taking care of children.. but when they belief that's all that all women SHOULD be doing, I think a little gender-boundary-breaking is in order. How in the world is someone supposed to do that in the Mormon church though?

I think by now I'm just rambling. I just barely woke up. I better quit while I'm behind.

[dancinfree]

With the Mo meaning(less) framework out of the way, what other 'work' inspired you and created meaning?

As I read Ed's posting on Stages - 10, I noted his enthusiasm about the book Aphrodite's Daughters, so went to check it out on Amazon. It will be joining my long list of books to be read.

As I read the reviews of that book, I was struck that I seemed to be hearing women say something approximating what I see and experience in good men's work. So I wondered how many of the regulars here have found some form of gender-specific work an important and valuable part of their post-Mo redefining of meaning?

As I recall various things Dogzilla has shared, her Wicca interest I am guessing fits largely in this area?

So my questions are these:

How many of you have done some/much gender work and how important has that been to you?

Do you feel that seeing the link between sexuality and spirituality has been part of that?

What aspect of your Mo experience did that help heal (if any)?

I only recall one other guy here speak of Bly, but it was not clear whether they were involved in men's work. Any others drinking at that well?

Daryl (the Inquisitor)

At the suggestion of Bigeddy, I too enjoyed immensely Aphrodite's daughter. It was fun to read other women's experiences of their connection of sexuality and spirituality. I had always hoped that there was a connection and now I know, especially since leaving my momo beliefs of God behind and embracing myself.

When my mother passed (we were VERY close), I needed but didn't realize what a balance she brought into my life for me...a female energy balance that now was gone, I felt. It put me in the depths of darkness and loss but there was a girlfriend of mine that was open to me and my divinity. She saw me in the way that my mother saw me...my Goddess within and because of that, I was able to embrace the Goddess of me. I was finally able to see ALL of my feminine energy and now I hold it dear within my heart and I can see it all around me in other women and it makes me smile. What a gift!!

I look forward to growing even more in this area. I feel that I finally found my "home" in this area and I want to explore it even more. Any other book suggestions would be great, anyone? Other paths shared would be wonderful too!

[dogzilla]

Actually, I took a number of Women's studies classes in college wherein I did a lot of this gender work. There was another class I took (which was supposed to be a sort of culmination and blending of different disciplines sort of applied to one topic) about Civil Disobedience wherein the Feminist movement was discussed quite a bit. I just sort of have a fascination with Feminism... the Wicca came later and just happens to fit. That interest was a result of rejecting Christianity, rejecting Buddhism because of one thing I read that I didn't completely agree with and then needing some sort of spiritual framework. There are so many factions within Wicca... I don't really care much for the Goddess business. I think it's a tad silly and sexist in the other direction; it seems to nullify and invalidate masculine power and energy and that's not my goal as a feminist.

As Bill Maher would say, I'm not trying to turn all the men into p***ies, and I'm not trying to be just like a man. I'm just trying to get acknowledgement for myself as an intelligent human being with the same rights as everyone else. I want to be heard when I speak and I want my opinion to matter. I highly recommend "Backlash" by Susan Faludi for a discussion of how this very simple feminist ideal has been twisted and re-stated to the point that "feminism" seems to be the Other F-Word these days. (That and "filibuster"! :p )

The gender work I've done has been very important to me in terms of surviving and recovering from abuse. That work has taught me to value myself and to respect myself, which means that I now expect other people (particularly men) to value my contributions (to society, to the conversation at hand, to everything at all levels) and respect me as a person. It has also taught me to see (and be sensitive to) the fact that, for more men than you might think, a strong, intelligent, fiercely independent woman is way more intimidating and scary than anything else. (Some men claim they think that's sexy, but I don't hear my phone ringing, so I think those men are just afraid I can beat 'em up!)

Has seeing the link between sexuality and spirituality been a part of that? Ummm... Yep. See "recovery from abuse" paragraph above.

What aspect of my Mo experience has this gender work helped heal? (Just about all of it?) See my thread about the Young Women's medallions. Miss Take and I have a little discussion going about how LDS women are encouraged to become educated, and yet also encouraged to stay home and breed like bunnies. I couldn't get anyone at church to tell me it was okay to do both. Or that women were even capable of doing both. So the gender work I've done has helped me square up my belief system with my reality and accept myself and my choices (not to marry and not to breed) and decide that those choices are okay.

Bottom line: This is how I learned a really important lesson. When a man calls me a "bitch," it's because I have shown him that I don't need him for anything, so he feels emasculated, intimidated and helpless. Men hate that. Some are so insecure about feeling that way, they have to use an ugly word like that to put me down and put themselves back up. So to speak. My reaction is to smile mysteriously and walk away... and that scares 'em even more! (They expect me to punch 'em, I guess... but that would be a male reaction.)

[peter_mary]

When a man calls me a "bitch," it's because I have shown him that I don't need him for anything, so he feels emasculated, intimidated and helpless. Men hate that.

What happens if I call you "Honey?" :D

::tucks tail and runs like hell::

Peter_Mary

[dogzilla]

What happens if I call you "Honey?" :D

::tucks tail and runs like hell::

Peter_Mary


LOL.

Actually, nothing. I live in the South, remember? Everyone calls everyone "honey" here. Ain't nobody mean nuthin' by it. :p

[lsands]

Since I'm the one who loaned the book Aphrodite's Daughters to Bigeddy (and never got it back; I finally bought another copy! It's okay, Ed---I'm glad to see you're passing it on.), I'm pleased to see that many others are reading it too. It had a profound effect on my attitudes about sexuality---taking them out of the Christian morality idea, of which Momoism is just one example. In fact, I'd say that all three monotheistic religions---Judaism, Christianity, and Islam---have a pretty similar take on sex, and patriarchy/male dominance. Aphrodite's Daughters shows women who have owned their sexuality and have learned and grown through it. It takes sex out of the purity-guilt-shame paradigm and puts it into a life-pleasure-loving frame. Very empowering and freeing for me.

Responding Dogzilla's comments about the Goddess: I've had a different experience. The book When God Was a Woman was also hugely significant for me. It's not that I believe that "God" is literally either male or female; I really don't know any more what/who God is. I see God as an energy or power or spirit---no words to really describe it. The attributes that each culture/belief gives God are, I beleive, a frame for understanding and relating to God that we can access. Thus, the idea of female, nurturing, powerful Goddess has been healing and meaningful for me. I continue to want to learn more and incorporate it into myself.

I have mentioned here before that I have been part of a women's group that meets weekly in Salt Lake since March of last year. The impact of being female is definitely a part of our discussions, but it isn't a feminist group per se. We're just women who share our lives and experiences and learn and gain support from each other. Having an all-female group is an advantage because our lives and experiences are more similar than if it were a mixed-gender group. One of the big issues that recurs and that has helped me is the idealized role of "mother" in our society in general, and for me, magnified within Momoism. I have been able to let go a lot of guilt and shame over not being a "perfect" mother---which has certainly improved my relationships with my children.

Laraine

[Born Free]

<snip>

I have mentioned here before that I have been part of a women's group that meets weekly in Salt Lake since March of last year. The impact of being female is definitely a part of our discussions, but it isn't a feminist group per se. We're just women who share our lives and experiences and learn and gain support from each other. Having an all-female group is an advantage because our lives and experiences are more similar than if it were a mixed-gender group. One of the big issues that recurs and that has helped me is the idealized role of "mother" in our society in general, and for me, magnified within Momoism. I have been able to let go a lot of guilt and shame over not being a "perfect" mother---which has certainly improved my relationships with my children.

Laraine
Laraine,

My start into men's work was going to an information night when I was 41. I can't recall the question posed of the group, but I recall realising that I wanted to feel like I was a grown adult male before I went into being an old man. I felt that I was still a little boy on the inside. Apparently that is common to a lot of men.

So when I received an invitation to consider joining a group, I tried it, and loved it from day one.

Some women much of the time, and many women some of the time seem to get anxious about what men get up to in private. The fear that it degenerates into a bitchfest appears common.

Whilst I am sure some groups do degenerate to that, all groups I have been involved with for any time, were actively anti women-bashing, and would overtly challenge any man who wanted to engage in such behaviour.

All (IME) work heavily out of personal responsibility, "I" Statements, and place a heavy emphasis on the enhancement of EQ, and specifically on masculine EQ. This last I see as very important. Many men, when on the receiving end of criticism about their emotional functioning from the significant women in their lives, in the absence of good masculine models of male emotional functioning, fall into the trap of believing that men should process emotionally as women do. IME that is a major error; not to say there is anything wrong with feminine emotional processing, but to provide room for the notion that maybe men do it, or part of it, differently, and that they can only learn that from good male mentors and soundboards.

I find many men are paranoid about intimacy, virtually automatically equating intimacy with sexuality. The danger and limitations of such a belief is nowhere more apparent that when observing men's struggle when a major relationship goes bad.

So I find good groups actively create the safety for men to start unpacking that belief, and discover the joys of other forms of intimacy. The benefit is that that they slow expecting sex to fulfil a need it nevr can or will. Surprise, surprise, that frequently comes as a relief to the women in their life, but paradoxically frequently the quantity of sex goes up.

One of the joys for me in good men's groups is discovering the hero in the very ordinary people around me. I have concluded that when we turn off the TV and get to connect deeply with the people around us, we discover courage eveywhere, so can let go for the need of two dimensional heroes "out there".

I found the honesty I found in men's groups in masked contrast with the widespread maskwearing evident in Mormonism. This was nowhere more apparent than in dealing with sex and sexuality.

Daryl

[bigeddy]

In answering Daryl's questions I think there are answers to the questions Why me asked on another thread about why post mos talk about sex a lot. For me, the need to talk about it and learn about it is directly related to two things. Its importance to my humanity (and my world view of humanity) and the degree to which it is misunderstood by the pulpit idiots--which caused so much misery in my life and in the lives of others with whom I am well acquainted.

This all makes sense (is consistent) in my view. If our sexual nature is basic to our humanity (I believe it is one of the most important considerations in being human) then to misunderstand it and act on that misunderstanding will cause our biggest problems. I find this to be exactly the case. I also find that the degree of misunderstanding in moism is huge and this total lack of wisdom about something so basic to our humanity is, IMO, one the biggest faults, pitfalls, dangers, atrocities, abominations, scourges, harbingers of hell, etc., etc, in mormonism. It is a danger, as big a danger as anything that is a huge destroyer of human beings. (much worse than alcoholism, drug use, war, etc.) Can I be any clearer?

So, to answer Daryl's questions:

I have done quite a bit of gender work. I was part of a men's group in SLC for several years. I have done much gender work with other clients and have done sex offender groups and psychoeducational classes for years. I still have a whole lot to learn (mainly affective stuff).

I think this kind of work has been one of the most important things I have ever done. Finding the answers (consistency of flow) to the biggest problems of my life has come as I have done this.

Seeing the link between sexuality and spirituality has been a huge part of that. To finally understand sexuality without out the confusion and shame fostered by the pulpit idiots has been the greatest relief in my life.

FInding this has helped heal so much of the shame and helped solve the problems of wasted time and emotional effort. This is huge.

I have not read Iron John. I have a copy of it and have never read it. I do not know why. I do know that it has not been by accident that I have avoided it. I guess I am afraid that it will not be a big deal, I really don't know. Guess I will have to do a lot of thinking on that one. (I have read other things by Bly but not Iron John).

Ed

[Born Free]

In this country we have a popular psychologist and family therapist whose book 'Manhood' has been a big seller here, and in Europe for 10 years now. It is recommended by many therapists working with men, and for women who want to better understand the forces that shape men.

The following is list of of Steve's 7 Steps to Manhood. Many of these could be easily translated into female equivalents I expect, but will differ on some.

Fixing It With Your Father

Your father is your emotional line of contact to your masculinity. You have to work towards a clear and resolved relationship between yourself and him. You cannot get on with your life successfully until you have understood him, forgiven him and come, in some way, to respect him. You may do this in conversation with him if he's alive, or in your head if he is now dead. Unless you do this work, his corpse will drag around behind you, and trip you up every time you make a move!

Finding Sacredness In Your Sexuality

You have to find out how to be not just comfortable but transformed and fulfilled in your sexuality. Sex will either be a sleazy and obsessive part of your life or a sacred and powerful source of well-being. There isn't any in between. First you must locate your sexual energy in yourself, instead of giving it away to women. Then you need to learn the art of the chase -the specific role a man must take in the dance of male and female.

Meeting Your Partner On Equal Terms

Anyone can get a partner - the trick is keeping them. To do this you must learn how a meet your partner, and in fact all women, as a different but equal being. This means respecting her but respecting yourself, too. In order to have a successful marriage and one that lasts, you will sometimes need to be able to debate fiercely and to do so in a safe and focused way so that problems get solved. In a modern marriage, soft men are boring, and the bullies drive self-respecting women away. Today's man has to learn to both communicate his own feelings, and listen to those of his partner. This takes great balance!

Engaging Actively With Your Kids

You can't parent from behind a newspaper and you can't leave it all to your partner either - because it is unfair, and because women don't have all the ingredients needed. You'll have to get the tough - tender balance right with your children. This is important for sons, for the reasons we've mentioned, and for daughters, who depend on fathers for a considerable amount of their self-esteem and the whole template for relating to the opposite sex.

Learning To Have Real Male Friends

Being a man is almost impossibly hard at times, and to do it you will need emotional support from other men. Other men can also help you find out how to complete your own initiation into manhood. They can also provide a community of men for your teenage sons and daughters to experience and so make up the gaps that you can't always fill. And having male friends is invigorating. They remind you to loosen up, and they deflate your ego every chance they get!

Finding Your Heart In Your Work

You must find work you can believe in, so that the time and energy of your working life is spent in a direction where your heart lies. It isn't enough just to make a living. The real work of men is to support and protect life and to build towards a better world. If you don't believe in your own work then the inner contradictions of it will slowly start killing you. Since most jobs today are for heartless corporations whose goals we do not believe in, and this is a huge issue.

Freeing Your Wild Spirit

The god of men does not dwell in the suburbs or the office towers. Inner steadiness does not come from achievements or possessions. You will need to find a spiritual basis for your inner life that is specifically masculine and based in nature, which connects you to the earth you live on. As you grow older this will be your source of strength and harmony, freeing you from fear and dependency on others.

How do others rate that list against both your Mo experience and priorities and those since you moved on?

Daryl

[free thinker]

The god of men does not dwell in the suburbs or the office towers. Inner steadiness does not come from achievements or possessions. You will need to find a spiritual basis for your inner life that is specifically masculine and based in nature, which connects you to the earth you live on. As you grow older this will be your source of strength and harmony, freeing you from fear and dependency on others.


I have printed this, and it will be on my refrigerator. I want to see it every day until I start to internalize it.

I want to remember this!!

Free Thinker

[Born Free]

The god of men does not dwell in the suburbs or the office towers. Inner steadiness does not come from achievements or possessions. You will need to find a spiritual basis for your inner life that is specifically masculine and based in nature, which connects you to the earth you live on. As you grow older this will be your source of strength and harmony, freeing you from fear and dependency on others.


I have printed this, and it will be on my refrigerator. I want to see it every day until I start to internalize it.

I want to remember this!!

Free Thinker
Free Thinker,

Glad you liked it! I find the whole 7 Steps a great template for healthy masculinity. I am encouraging our graduate groups to employ it as a template for personal work, and for reading and workshops they might engage to enhance their quality of life and relationships.

What part/s press your buttons powerfully?

This particular step addresses my tendency to live in my head. When feeling threatened, I have a strong tendency to retreat into my head, so connecting with nature and being still and feeling is a great antidote to that process. This connects with Ed's remarks elsewhere about nature being a surrogate feminine energy, or words to that effect. (I went looking and can't find that comment by Ed! Help?)

I wonder how much of this way of 'freeing wild spirit' is a response in me to Mormonisms considerable efforts to make one ill-at-ease with their 'wild spirit'.

Daryl

[bigeddy]

Daryl,

You give the list of seven steps from someone named Steve. Is this Steven Farmer? I have a book of his titled "The Wounded Male" and so much of what you quoted sounds like this book. I enjoyed the 7 steps and find them to be very accurate when compared to my journey.

Also, when I look at the steps I see how moism gets in the way right from the start. How can we do any of the these when our momo paradigm is dead set against finding the glory in our sexuality (unless Jesus lives in our bedroom), dead set against being able to fully embrace our own shadow, and set ON seeing everything in the polarized view?

So, I find little healthy masculinity in momoland. In fact, IMO, it is one of the biggest reasons the pulpit idiots remain idiots.

As for the notion of nature being a substitute for feminine energy; that is from David Deida's book "Intimate Communion".

Ed

[Born Free]

Daryl,

You give the list of seven steps from someone named Steve. Is this Steven Farmer? I have a book of his titled "The Wounded Male" and so much of what you quoted sounds like this book. I enjoyed the 7 steps and find them to be very accurate when compared to my journey.

Also, when I look at the steps I see how moism gets in the way right from the start. How can we do any of the these when our momo paradigm is dead set against finding the glory in our sexuality (unless Jesus lives in our bedroom), dead set against being able to fully embrace our own shadow, and set ON seeing everything in the polarized view?

So, I find little healthy masculinity in momoland. In fact, IMO, it is one of the biggest reasons the pulpit idiots remain idiots.

As for the notion of nature being a substitute for feminine energy; that is from David Deida's book "Intimate Communion".

Ed
Ed,

The author of Manhood is an australian psychologist and family therapist by the name of Steve Biddulph. He was born in England and came to Tasmania, Australia about age 6. His other big books that have been a big successs here are Raising Boys, which has been very warmly embraced by the schools and young parents, and The Making of Love. With his wife Sharon he has written two books that have been very popular in the educational system here - The Secret of Happy Children and More Secrets of Happy Children.

http://www.stevebiddulph.com/

I have been fortunate enough to do several workshops at various men's gathering over the years around Australia with Steve. He was a delightly dry Australian sense of humour, which is very highly developed.

If you compare those 7 Steps along side the Sam Keen article on intimacy you sent me, it quickly becomes apparent how problematic much of Mormonism is to people's healthy individual development and the vigour of their relationships.

So much gets killed of in the wake of Mormon 'Nice'. In fact, it just struck me that that works in many ways the same way as the way that the culture socializes little girls to be 'sugar and spice and all things nice' - and disconnect from their legitimate anger, which then seeps out.

Is it possible that Mo 'Nice' is a pathological feminizing process, which sends honesty and humanity underground? Sound like rejection of the erotic in its broadest sense???

Daryl

[free thinker]

What part/s press your buttons powerfully?

In the movie Wall Street, the character played by Martin Sheen, encourages his son,(played by his actual son) Charlie Sheen, to, " put a little soul in his success".

I work in the thick of corporate America every business day. There are so many times when I desire to be out on a lake paddling a canoe, that it just resonated with me.

That is why I want to internalize it, and learn what lesson lies here!

Free Thinker

[Born Free]

Daryl,

You give the list of seven steps from someone named Steve. Is this Steven Farmer? I have a book of his titled "The Wounded Male" and so much of what you quoted sounds like this book. I enjoyed the 7 steps and find them to be very accurate when compared to my journey.

Also, when I look at the steps I see how moism gets in the way right from the start. How can we do any of the these when our momo paradigm is dead set against finding the glory in our sexuality (unless Jesus lives in our bedroom), dead set against being able to fully embrace our own shadow, and set ON seeing everything in the polarized view?

So, I find little healthy masculinity in momoland. In fact, IMO, it is one of the biggest reasons the pulpit idiots remain idiots.

As for the notion of nature being a substitute for feminine energy; that is from David Deida's book "Intimate Communion".

Ed

Ed,

My father died about 18 years ago of cancer, so I have to 'fix it' with him alone.

I have found that hard, because to a large degree he was a stranger, both becasue of his own baggage and becasue of the impact of Mormonism.

I believe that Mormonism encouraged a lot of mask-wearing, when he was in his middle adult years, which left him so burnt out and unhappy that in his latter years a powerful sense of entitlement kicked in, possibly overlayed with what I would now suspect was depression, and he started to live quite selfishly.

It is a real detective job trying to piece him together from fragments. I now believe that much of what I heard from him was a reaction to his Shadow, that he never really made any peace with that and integrated it.

In marked contrast to all the 'family' noise Moism makes, my experience was that it aided in keeping me and my father, strangers to each other.

Daryl