temple question

[rainangel]

**sorry for any confusion...I posted this first from my other (old) user account by accident, and this is the one I prefer to use, hence the repost so anyone who cares to respond can do so in this thread. Thanks and sorry, I am still trying to figure out this posting thing. -rainangel**

Something has been bothering me lately, so I thought I would bring it up here. My boyfriend and I often get into pretty heated discussions about our feelings concerning the church and how concerned we sometimes are about our families. We struggle between wanting to respect them for their beliefs and also sometimes wanting to grab them by the shoulders and shake them a little.

So anyway, our last discussion had to do with the temple and why TBMs just go along with everything that goes on there. IMO, I think the temple sounds so silly and I have a hard time understanding how any intelligent person could go through those rituals and not think the same. The thing that gets me the most (and someone please correct me if I am wrong because I haven't actually been to the temple myself) is that you have to know handshakes or passwords of some sort. And you have to remember these to get into heaven? What does this even have to do with gospel teachings?! I'm sorry if this is offensive to anyone, but I just really have a hard time with it.

The hardest part for me is that I look at my family and some of my friends that have been to the temple and continue to go on a regular basis, and they seem like normal intelligent people. Sometimes I can't believe that they participate in this kind of thing. There are a lot of things about mormonism that I don't understand, but this is definitely the big one for me. A part of me would love to actually ask my family and friends what they really think about the temple experience. I know my parents would be extremely offended to know that I have researched what goes on in the temple and probably won't discuss any of it with me.

So my question for this group is directed to those of you who have been to the temple and care to talk about it. What did you think the first time you went to the temple? Did you go back? Did you ever ask questions? If so, did you get any answer besides, "the more you go back to the temple, the more you will understand?" Am I the only one who thinks the temple ceremonies seem a little rediculous (not to mention how odd it seems that the ceremonies have changed)? I am just trying to get a different perspective on all of this since I have never been and I know it is something really sacred to TBMs and don't feel like I can ask them about it.

rainangel

[silverfox]

I deleted the other thread and moved Daryl's post below. Daryl, please feel free to copy and paste using your own user name.

Thanks everyone! Silverfox

Different part of your head



You are spot on the money and your question is very astute.

The key is to have a special folder in your head, where all the crazy bits get filed. But the file has an unusual property. You can never pull more than one item out to scrutunize them as a group, because the ugly BIG PICTURE would become glaringly apparent. So you must only look at these misfits, peacemeal.

So one has to place such questions in THAT file, along with a crucial piece of additional information.

Your failure to understand is not because the whole idea is childish and crazy, but because it is SPECIAL, and if you just get yourself worthy enough (presses guilt button! ka-chung!!!) you will start to unravel these profound mysteries of the ages (so recently ripped off the Masons and bastardised to cover Joe's philandering butt).

Don't lose too much sleep over this. What appears glaringly obvious to you, is in fact glaringly obvious, unless, of course, you have learnt to be blind to the glaringly obvious.

Go figure!

Daryl

[helemon]

The thing that gets me the most (and someone please correct me if I am wrong because I haven't actually been to the temple myself) is that you have to know handshakes or passwords of some sort. And you have to remember these to get into heaven? What does this even have to do with gospel teachings?! I'm sorry if this is offensive to anyone, but I just really have a hard time with it.


Yes I also thought this was strange. I have been told that the handshakes and passwords are just symbolic of what it really takes to get into heaven but the ceremony seems to make it fairly clear that they are also literal.


A part of me would love to actually ask my family and friends what they really think about the temple experience. I know my parents would be extremely offended to know that I have researched what goes on in the temple and probably won't discuss any of it with me.

You are probably correct on that last statement. Before I went my father told me that the ceremony was based on the creation story written in the Book of Moses. My mother was worried that he shouldn't even be telling me that much. I thought the washing and annointing was the weird and the blood oaths, but I didn't think they would literally be enforced if someone broke their covenants. I was most disappointed that there was only one film in the cineplex. I mean, come on! Ok I understand I need to follow the prophets or Satan will own my soul, what's next? Maybe something about the atonement or Christ's life? The most excitement as a teenager was wondering what Eve was wearing behind the hedge. :D

So my question for this group is directed to those of you who have been to the temple and care to talk about it. What did you think the first time you went to the temple? Did you go back? Did you ever ask questions? If so, did get any answer besides, "the more you go back to the temple, the more you will understand?" Am I the only one who thinks the temple ceremonies seem a little rediculous (not to mention how odd it seems that the ceremonies have changed)? I am just trying to get a different perspective on all of this since I have never been and I know it is something really sacred to TBMs and don't feel like I can ask them about it.
rainangel

First time: Thought it was a bit odd. Worried I would mess up all the handshakes, passwords and clothing adjustments. Not really freaked out by anything. Just thought, ok that was interesting. I never asked many questions about the temple.

They are very pretty and ornate inside. This is something that began to bother me. They didn't seem like the house of a humble carpenter. They seemed a bit too gaudy and seemed to teach the message that riches=righteous. I have felt more of a connection to God when experiencing the wonder of natural parks and contemplating the beauty of nature. Visiting Yellowstone and the Grand Tetons is more awe inspiring that the inside of Mormon temples.

[peter_mary]

They are very pretty and ornate inside. This is something that began to bother me. They didn't seem like the house of a humble carpenter. They seemed a bit too gaudy and seemed to teach the message that riches=righteous. I have felt more of a connection to God when experiencing the wonder of natural parks and contemplating the beauty of nature. Visiting Yellowstone and the Grand Tetons is more awe inspiring that the inside of Mormon temples.
Okay, let me get the thread related stuff out of the way...yeah, handshakes, oaths, washings...it's all bizarre, and I always hated going. Okay, enough of that.

I want to stand up and shout my agreement with Helemon on this one. I always thought it was friggin' bizarre that the "House of the Lord" was built like a gaudy Las Vegas hotel, and not like a rainforest. I mean, I how weird is it that the best that GOD could create was Yellowstone and the Tetons and the Grand Canyon and Mt. Rainier and Denali.... but WE, oh, we could build a building with crystal chandeliers and red velvet Victorian furniture with oak crown molding and theater seats. I'm not kidding...you walk into a temple, and you start looking for a slot machine, because the tacky is just extreme, in my oppinion.

It's ironic that houses of men are designed to keep the creation of God at bay. Hold it out. Don't get the rain on us or the dirt on us, or let the bugs or the skunks in. Man, I don't know WHAT God was thinking when he messed everything up so bad. Good thing we came along to seperate ourselves not only from each other...but from God, too. Seems to me, that's what temples do.

All of you who have felt SO much more spiritually attuned to the creative force of the universe while standing or sitting SOMEWHERE outside, be it a beach, a mountain, a desert or a forest, than you EVER felt in a temple, raise your hand.

::Peter_Mary raises hands...both of 'em::

Thought so.

Peter_Mary

By the way...I'll be spending my three day weekend in Yellowstone, chillin' in the temple. You should see my garments...
:D

[helemon]

By the way...I'll be spending my three day weekend in Yellowstone, chillin' in the temple. You should see my garments...
:D
Just be careful not to scare the wildlife while having a wild life!

Garments? We don't need no stinking garments!

Careful though, the chilly temps of those lakes can cause some serious shrinkage to occur!! :eek: I had to do a swim test in Heart lake and it literally took my breath away. Hard to swim when you are having a hard time breathing. :(
Oh the joys of scouting!!

[mindbender]

**sorry for any confusion...I posted this first from my other (old) user account by accident, and this is the one I prefer to use, hence the repost so anyone who cares to respond can do so in this thread. Thanks and sorry, I am still trying to figure out this posting thing. -rainangel**

Something has been bothering me lately, so I thought I would bring it up here. My boyfriend and I often get into pretty heated discussions about our feelings concerning the church and how concerned we sometimes are about our families. We struggle between wanting to respect them for their beliefs and also sometimes wanting to grab them by the shoulders and shake them a little.

So anyway, our last discussion had to do with the temple and why TBMs just go along with everything that goes on there. IMO, I think the temple sounds so silly and I have a hard time understanding how any intelligent person could go through those rituals and not think the same. The thing that gets me the most (and someone please correct me if I am wrong because I haven't actually been to the temple myself) is that you have to know handshakes or passwords of some sort. And you have to remember these to get into heaven? What does this even have to do with gospel teachings?! I'm sorry if this is offensive to anyone, but I just really have a hard time with it.

The hardest part for me is that I look at my family and some of my friends that have been to the temple and continue to go on a regular basis, and they seem like normal intelligent people. Sometimes I can't believe that they participate in this kind of thing. There are a lot of things about mormonism that I don't understand, but this is definitely the big one for me. A part of me would love to actually ask my family and friends what they really think about the temple experience. I know my parents would be extremely offended to know that I have researched what goes on in the temple and probably won't discuss any of it with me.

So my question for this group is directed to those of you who have been to the temple and care to talk about it. What did you think the first time you went to the temple? Did you go back? Did you ever ask questions? If so, did you get any answer besides, "the more you go back to the temple, the more you will understand?" Am I the only one who thinks the temple ceremonies seem a little rediculous (not to mention how odd it seems that the ceremonies have changed)? I am just trying to get a different perspective on all of this since I have never been and I know it is something really sacred to TBMs and don't feel like I can ask them about it.

rainangelsad thing about the temple is that members probably would not know really much of what it means but an occultist would , i think most members love being dressed in white , the serene atmosphere ect , they have no idea of its magical base , a book that might help you understand the purpose of magic rituals is one called magic primer , i think the author is ian wilson but i am not sure , for a very brief account , the magician wants to travel into the spiritual realms that surround the earth , for this he needs protection as the atmosphere is filled with demoniacs ect so he draws a circle around himself placing talismans at certain points to prevent invasion by evil forces , the journey into the magic worlds is often referred to as the tree of life , the spiritual realms being seen as a tree that sprouts out of the earth , entry into these various realms is seen as needing various signs , this is to protect these worlds from the uninitiated , when JS set up these things it would have been designed to help the initiate transpose the world of the mundane and enter into the magical world of astro realities , unfortunately the true meaning of these rituals are pretty much lossed in todays moronic church and has been long since changed to religous legalism which loads people up with anxieties beyond which most cannot cope with , so instead of traveling into exciting spiritual realms you end up with a big headache instead , truth be known religeon and magic have always had a courtship together , hence the magi ( magicians) bringing gifts at Jesus birth , Jesus also wore a garment of some sort as well , this is the one that the roman soldiers cast lots for , everybody wanted it for some reason , perhaps its magical quaities , garments are also mentioned repeatedly in the book of revelation along with other temple hints , this is a big subject and you could spend years studying it , society has long magical roots to it , they sprout up everywhere , don,t blame it all on JS, he was pretty good at it tho , what would be interesting would be finding out who actually taught JS what he knew ,in this world , every disciple has a master , including JS

[elder_nomo]

Before I joined the church I heard plenty of ridiculing of the catholic church [by TBMs] about its mystic rituals and hocus pocus mumbo jumbo. By comparison, the LDS church was supposedly pure and simple. So imagine my reaction the first time I went through the freak show that is the temple. The bizarre clothes, the undressed anointing, the signs, the veils, the symbolic slashing of throats. Holy crap! [and I mean that in the most literal way ;) ]

And, oh yeah, the handshakes and secret names. Sheesh - even Santa knows who's been naughty and nice without all that baloney.

The temple was the beginning of the end for me.

[pokatator]

Before I joined the church I heard plenty of ridiculing of the catholic church [by TBMs] about its mystic rituals and hocus pocus mumbo jumbo. By comparison, the LDS church was supposedly pure and simple. So imagine my reaction the first time I went through the freak show that is the temple. The bizarre clothes, the undressed anointing, the signs, the veils, the symbolic slashing of throats. Holy crap! [and I mean that in the most literal way ;) ]

And, oh yeah, the handshakes and secret names. Sheesh - even Santa knows who's been naughty and nice without all that baloney.

The temple was the beginning of the end for me.Boy....elder_nomo You took the words right of my mouth. Santa...that's so funny but a true illustration.

I remember standing in line to go to the veil and thinking...I have to have permission from my Bish, then I have to be washed and annoited, given a new name, change my underwear, put on robes of the priesthood and a bakers hat, make oaths and swear to commit suicide by sheding my own blood three different times and three different ways to keep a secret, then play hugsy with some guy behind the veil and tell him like he is God all this stuff back and demonstrate the oaths, grips, tokens and signs, or he doesn't know who I am and won't let me in. All I can say is that is not God behind that veil or he would know me without all that mumbo-jumbo.

Maybe it's the Wizard of Oz behind the curtain but not God.

How come he won't know me without doing all that stuff????? He created me!!! The Mormon God doesn't know his own creation????

A lot of what is done in the Temple is done in the "Name of the Son of God", in Mormonism Jesus and Satan are brothers. Or in other words, which "Son of God" is this temple stuff being done for????

Bascially I thought the "Oath of Sacrifice" just used weasel words to basically say, "I can live up to all the oaths and covenents made in the temple on my own, I can be perfect on my own, I don't need the saving grace of Jesus or anything else". Satan even interrupts the oath and tells them if "they", the temple patrons, don't live up to everything sworn to in the temple they will be in his grasp. Satan is sent away and the oath continues. If there is a judgement with Satan he can say, "I didn't even lie, I didn't even decieve you, I told you the truth and you went ahead and made oaths that no human being could possibly obey". Oh and also he might say something like, "Welcome to Hell".

I thought the whole thing was Satanic from the beginning to the end.

The temple was the beginning of the end for me too!!

[ifitmakesuhappy]

Before I joined the church I heard plenty of ridiculing of the catholic church [by TBMs] about its mystic rituals and hocus pocus mumbo jumbo. By comparison, the LDS church was supposedly pure and simple. So imagine my reaction the first time I went through the freak show that is the temple. The bizarre clothes, the undressed anointing, the signs, the veils, the symbolic slashing of throats. Holy crap! [and I mean that in the most literal way ;) ]

And, oh yeah, the handshakes and secret names. Sheesh - even Santa knows who's been naughty and nice without all that baloney.

The temple was the beginning of the end for me.

The whole temple thing was the beginning of the end for me also.
I was about 25/26 and worked really hard to get my recommend, causing untold damage to my marriage, but believing firmly that i was doing the right thing. :duh
I had been really curious in the months leading up to it but was always told it was really nothing I hadnt heard before, to just keep an open mind and to relax and enjoy the experience. I was really excited and proud when my day finally came. My parents came through with me, I think they were prouder of me that day than they had been on my wedding day. Lots of my friends came along to show their support, so i was geared up for a great day. Or so I thought. When it finally happened it totally floored me. I hated every minute of it. I felt such an idiot wearing those ridiculous robes and in front of all of my friends!!! :mad: Why were they not in hysterics laughin at me??? I could never understand that. I know that I thought THEY looked like a bunch of escapees from the local loony bin. I felt extremely uncomfortable with it all. Inside my head was screaming "this is so wrong!", I wanted to run away from it all but everyone was looking on like it was so beautiful so i just went with it. Of course at the time and for a long time afterwards I thought it was all because I wasn't spititual enough. I felt extremely disappointed with the whole experience...I had looked forward to it for such a long time and in the end the only thing it did was cause extra grief that my marriage could have done without.
That said, I'm glad it all happened or i may have continued to believe it was all perfectly normal, spiritual and beautiful. :slap:

[bigeddy]

Rainangel, (love that name, by the way)

This one has bugged the hell out of me for years. Good question!! I have asked a few people about this but they have not been the ones I am most curious about. I asked my father; pinned him down actually, about whether he really saw any godliness in this. He admitted it was stupid--but continues to go. His opinion is not the one I care most about. He would worship dogshit if it got him approval and inclusion. I do not respect his honesty or integrity.

I do have other friends who I have great respect for. One man in particular whose honesty and integrity I respect. I have wanted for years to ask him about this. I have no clue how he would respond. I love this man and believe he is no fool. But he still backs this ridiculous ritual. Why? I do not know.

When I went, I just accepted. After all, the people I respected and wanted acceptance from (at that time) were all there grinning in the stupid hats, the green aprons and etc. I accepted. I needed their approval at the time so I went along with it. Afterwards I took all that "if you are truly spiritual you will get it" stuff seriously. I attended at least once a week for a solid year. I just got mad. It was one of the things that caused a lot of the loss of respect for the entire church thing.

So, not only do I not have any answer for you, I have the same question. I do know the answer for some people--they want what the secular portions of the church give them, acceptance, community, ritual (meaningless, but ritual nonetheless). There are others however with whom I have the same question. How in the hell does Kent go there and not just barf all over that stupid apron? I do not know.

Ed

[dancinfree]

I remember my first experience in the temple very well due to the fact that I was in labor with Aether through it all!! What fun!! I remember also thinking, "so this is what my devout, conservative, religious, totally obedient, intelligent in-laws think is perfectly acceptable? Uhhh, okay then, I guess I have alot of work to do in getting to that same space!!"

My take on it was that is was totally freaky but kind of weird and I guess I liked weird. Finally, not just another boring testimony meeting, at least :D ! The story of Abraham and Nephi reminded me that sometimes the Lord asks us to do whatever His will is. So, me being the obedient, good mormon example, of course I will take this on along with anything else the Lord might ask of me. Bring it on! If I questioned it, wouldn't that really be a show of weak faith on my part? I thought it would...so no questions asked.

I also attended faithfully for many years, hoping that I would learn something new each time, just like good ole President Hinkley. What was wrong with me? Why couldn't I glean anything more than memorization? Oh, let the whipping begin!! I attended five days a week in Provo for many months but to no avail. I just got tired.

So, even though the temple was a strange place, I figured that if God thought it meant something, then someday I would "get" it too. I "got" it all right...right out the door and never looked back!! What a joy my journey has taken me to now!!

Let's rock and roll!!

[flotsam]

All of you who have felt SO much more spiritually attuned to the creative force of the universe while standing or sitting SOMEWHERE outside, be it a beach, a mountain, a desert or a forest, than you EVER felt in a temple, raise your hand.



A friend of mine spent a few years in Rwanda (pre-genocide, but not by much) with the peace corp. He found out that there the people don't care much for our definition of "nature." And they sure don't want to be alone in it.

My friend was teaching English courses and had his students read a book about mountaineering. The students expressed nothing but bafflement that anyone would want to go out into the wilderness alone. To them, being alone is really awful. Heaven is being with loved ones. All the time. There really isn't a sense of needing alone time like we Westerners seem to need.

Like when my friend was celebrating his first wedding anniversary in Rwanda, his friend Robert just wouldn't leave the house. "How could I leave you on such a special occasion?" He would ask.

I'm just bringing that up to show that not all cultures see nature as a place to seek heaven.

[flotsam]

Am I the only one who thinks the temple ceremonies seem a little rediculous (not to mention how odd it seems that the ceremonies have changed)?
rainangel

Well, I'd ask, ridiculous compared to what? To a rave? To a charismatic evangelical service? To a tea ceremony? To a sauna? To a graduation ceremony?

I think it's to our own advantage to try understanding the temple ceremony as a manifestation of the human drive to make meaning out of life. A drive that I take very seriously, because I have to make meaning out of life just like the rest of humanity.

Some people would really question my unswerving contention that Seven is one of the greatest movies ever made. They would also look askance at me if I told them that watching Seven is often a spiritual experience for me. But somehow, a part of me thirsts for something in that movie, and even if some people think it's just an especially grisly serial killer movie, I think an important essence of life is sitting in there somewhere.

Admittedly, I don't wear a costume to watch it in. ;)

But what about those Star Wars guys? A friend of mine is one of them. He falls asleep listening to an audio recording of the movies (Episodes 4 5 6, for painfully obvious reasons). There's something in there, a powerful story that he really resonates with.

Of course, he doesn't believe they're real stories. But they affect his life nonetheless. I guess that's the one difference between the temple ceremony and Star Wars (besides the rating - huh? What would the MPAA rate the temple movie anyway? PG-13 for partial nudity, suggestive themes and lack of acting skills?) the temple ceremony is supposed to represent something actual - a real event.

Or is it?

I'd suggest approaching the temple ceremony as if you were an ethnographer, or an anthropologist. Their job is to approach a culture in such a way that when they write down their findings, a member of that culture could read them and say, "Yeah, so what, we all know that." The anthropologist makes it his or her job to understand what is going on.

I find a lot of good in this approach. In some ways I'd call it very Christian, in that Christ taught a radical empathy. And anthropoligists try to do that culturally.

However, I also understand that it's very difficult to do this because in many ways you are still under the power of the culture you're trying to understand. Your family can still ostracize you, or pity you, or fray the relationship by trying to change you.

I don't really know what to do about that. It's something I still struggle with myself.

[flotsam]

What did you think the first time you went to the temple? Did you go back?

rainangel

While we’re talking temple stories, I must admit, my experience is quite different from most of yours. I was actually quite moved by my first experience in the temple. I had this divinely horrifying feeling that God was sitting just beyond the walls watching me. I mean literally. Being there was like living inside a flame.

I was so convinced of the absolute divinity of the temple, that I would measure the state of my soul by what kind of thoughts came unbidden to my mind while there. If the proportion of evil thoughts was less inside the temple than what they were in the outside world, then I figured most of my evil thoughts in everyday life could be attributed to Satan. Interestingly, most of the time, I did have fewer evil thoughts in the temple.

I got into every prayer circle I could. I never once fell asleep. I never forgot the new name. I loved the session at the veil, especially the last part, the one about the blessings on one’s posterity. I wanted myself and my children to be full of power. Man, I was such a believer.

I went to the temple a few months ago. My wife and I did sealings. The sealer was a strange fellow. Every set or two, he would stop and tell us these doctrinal points or stories. He told us that there were spirits literally surrounding us, waiting on our doing their work. He said they’d personally thank us in the next life. This struck me as very strange that, indeed, literally there were presences around who accepted the same story we did. That indeed, they were being denied access to something, but would soon have it because of some actions we were about to perform. The sealer said that particular temple limits the sealing sets to five in order to keep people’s knees feeling good. If the proxies felt good, that would make the experience of the spirits a better one.

I could tell that the sealer didn’t think he was being metaphorical in the least. He was telling us reality. I used to be a big fan of that kind of literalness. I used to thrive on it. And it still calls to me.

Most people I meet who have gone their own way after being a thorough-going Mormon seem either bitter about the whole thing, or really happy to be gone. For me, it’s much different. I grieve for that time of belief. There is nothing I've encountered yet that's like believing that, in fact, you are in God’s presence, receiving instruction and preparing yourself to go out and do a divine work. I built my whole character on that premise (except for the part that was full of evil, of course). I still mourn that loss.

But this is my reality now: I no longer believe the mythology as being literal. I think it’s a huge, beautiful, empowering, and overpowering metaphor. I think it works wonders for a great many people. But I’m close to convinced that Mormonism and its doctrines are a small narrow subsidiary of a truth so huge that it simply cannot be contained by the metaphors of Mormonism, or any other single metaphor, for that matter. This may sound like an amateurish conclusion, but it’s huge for me. I’m quite a literalist. I believed everything the Church said very literally. Now it’s all a story.

But what else do we have, except stories? What else sustains us? I don’t have a story anymore. Not one that consumes me, anyway. I don't know what to do about that. Maybe it's good.

All the above subject to revision at any time. :Crazy:

[helemon]

I'm just bringing that up to show that not all cultures see nature as a place to seek heaven.

I prefer to enjoy nature with friends and family as well. I wouldn't want to go on a lone wilderness hike. :eek:

[helemon]

what would be interesting would be finding out who actually taught JS what he knew ,in this world , every disciple has a master , including JS

There was a magician in JS neighborhood for a while. I forget his name. I think JS did know him and did work for him on some of the money digging adventures. I also seem to recall people claming JS had inherited his mantle when he left the area.

[free thinker]

But what else do we have, except stories? What else sustains us? I don’t have a story anymore. Not one that consumes me, anyway. I don't know what to do about that. Maybe it's good.


I can answer this for me, and maybe it will resonate with you.

I consider myself a seeker of truth now. Wherever it may be found. This may sound silly, but I find out a lot about myself on the golf course. :Crazy: It can bring out the absolute worst in a person. It is axiomatic in some circles, that golf is a metaphor for life. I will leave it at that to spare the reader complete boredom.

Seeker of truth. That is what I fancy myself as now.

Free Thinker

[david]

It's interesting that so many here consider the temple experience to be the beginning of the end. Same here.

It was during/after my first temple visit that I began to suspect that the church was a cult. The costumes really did it for me. It wasn't spiritual, in fact, it was anti-spiritual.

I've since come to understand that an exclusive, secretive ritual such as the mormons have in the temple is absolutely essential to a cult's existence. Participants are inducted without prior knowledge of the oaths expected of them. Then they are bullied/pressured/threatened into secrecy. (I don't think bullied is too strong a word: remember the throat-slitting move? Pure intimidation!) Above all, the signs constitute a ticket to heaven. What an awesome combination of juvenile play and solemn joy at having learned the only password that really matters! Welcome to the club! The need for inclusion is powerful and often clouds one's judgement.

The temple ceremony is IMO just another duping maneuver. Jo. Smith was a magpie. He picked up any idea that came his way; the result is an incoherent mess. Consider that neither Jesus nor the BoM figures in the temple ceremony. As I see it, JS was one of the most charismatic, unintellectual charlatans who ever lived. But what a fantastic mind! (with emphasis on "fantastic")

[noodle]

Okay, let me get the thread related stuff out of the way...yeah, handshakes, oaths, washings...it's all bizarre, and I always hated going. Okay, enough of that.

I want to stand up and shout my agreement with Helemon on this one. I always thought it was friggin' bizarre that the "House of the Lord" was built like a gaudy Las Vegas hotel, and not like a rainforest. I mean, I how weird is it that the best that GOD could create was Yellowstone and the Tetons and the Grand Canyon and Mt. Rainier and Denali.... but WE, oh, we could build a building with crystal chandeliers and red velvet Victorian furniture with oak crown molding and theater seats. I'm not kidding...you walk into a temple, and you start looking for a slot machine, because the tacky is just extreme, in my oppinion.

It's ironic that houses of men are designed to keep the creation of God at bay. Hold it out. Don't get the rain on us or the dirt on us, or let the bugs or the skunks in. Man, I don't know WHAT God was thinking when he messed everything up so bad. Good thing we came along to seperate ourselves not only from each other...but from God, too. Seems to me, that's what temples do.

All of you who have felt SO much more spiritually attuned to the creative force of the universe while standing or sitting SOMEWHERE outside, be it a beach, a mountain, a desert or a forest, than you EVER felt in a temple, raise your hand.

::Peter_Mary raises hands...both of 'em::

Thought so.

Peter_Mary

By the way...I'll be spending my three day weekend in Yellowstone, chillin' in the temple. You should see my garments...
:D

Hope you have (had) a great trip to Yellowstone. We just got back from a visit last week. It was awesome, and I will never go again in the summer. May is the best time to go! In the "real temple," we saw grizzlies, wolves, moose, coyotes, mountain goats, elk, bison (of course), and even a mountain lion!

mamajama

[miss taken]

The first time I went, it all felt a little bit wierd. I can remember a part where they say that if you don't want to proceed then you can leave now..... I thought...I think I want to leave....but social pressure and the fact I was just about to go on a mission, kept me in.

I never did feel like Flotsam did. It would have been nice if I had. Never felt 'the spirit' in the celestial room.

The bad grammar in the movie urked me, it sounded like a 19th century voice, not very adept.

I think I had someone sitting next to me helping me out, the first time, which was nice. Maybe what I remember with affection, is that there were 'more experienced' friends there, who were really pleased that I was there, and wanted to help me make the experience a more pleasant one.

Very ritualistic, and I have to say a little scary in places.
I never found Jesus in the ritual...No, not at all.


Flotsam, I was interested about what you had to say about the Rwandans not wanting to be alone.

In my Child Development Studies, we looked at the way that children are raised across many ethnic groups and cultures.

In many tribes the children are never, ever alone. They sleep with their mother, they are carried on their backs when they are working. And older siblings or relatives have a kind of 'show and tell' way of teaching the younger ones. It all seems very natural, and very communal in many cases. I can remember feeling that perhaps the Western Industrial world has gained so much, but also lost a little too.

Mary

[why me]

I rememeber feeling very inadequate when I was there. I don't remember very much about it now. It is all a blur. It was so long ago. Perhaps I was not worthy to be there...this could have something to do with it. My ex-wife wanted us to go and so I went...but it is all a blank, including the temple wedding. I don't think that I have ever really been worthy to go to the temple. And it would be a long process to get there now...exed or dissed if I went to the bishop and a long perfect struggle back into the fold....I just can't do it...I don't have the mental energy...

[noodle]

When I went the first time, I felt quite overwhelmed. I remember thinking that things were a bit odd, although my bishop had warned me that I might feel that way. It was quite a blurr. I worried more that I wouldn't get the clothing parts right, or that I'd forget signals, etc. I do remember that my MIL was with me, and kept staring at me through the whole thing, trying to "capture" my experience. She was so proud that her son and DIL were going through the temple. Anyway, the part that bothered me the most was the film, and the "evil" depiction of "other churches." Being a convert, I found this rather offensive. Since I went through prior to the 1990 changes, the penalties, etc., were more barbaric. After the experience, as I mulled it over in my head, I was struck by its weirdness. I didn't have any spiritual experiences like some of my friends reported. I can do that when hiking in the mountains.

Anyway, I have visited the website that has the temple ceremony script pre-1990 and afterwards. As I read through it, I can remember things, and I am struck with the weirdness of it all. I wonder how I didn't run out of the temple screaming nekkid into the night. :eek:

Years later, as my temple clothes sat in a little suitcase in my basement storage, a mouse chewed holes all in them...a perfect ending to my prior life as a Mo. I eventually tossed them.

mamajama

[helemon]

Years later, as my temple clothes sat in a little suitcase in my basement storage, a mouse chewed holes all in them...a perfect ending to my prior life as a Mo. I eventually tossed them.

mamajama

That mouse was clearly directed by God to destroy the sacred clothes so that you could not defile them in your unbelief! :D ;)

[free thinker]

As I see it, JS was one of the most charismatic, unintellectual charlatans who ever lived. But what a fantastic mind! (with emphasis on "fantastic")


David

I definately agree with you here. I don't see any nobility in the man. To me he was clearly a manipulator. William Law said that Joseph Smith could not bear having other men talked about. All the attention had to be on him.

Free Thinker

[free thinker]

:D That mouse was clearly directed by God to destroy the sacred clothes so that you could not defile them in your unbelief!




Very Funny! That mouse did not know he was an instrument in the lords hands!!


Free Thinker

[noodle]

That mouse was clearly directed by God to destroy the sacred clothes so that you could not defile them in your unbelief! :D ;)

I am eternally grateful for the actions of that mouse. Squeak Squeak.

[lsands]

IMO, I think the temple sounds so silly and I have a hard time understanding how any intelligent person could go through those rituals and not think the same. The thing that gets me the most (and someone please correct me if I am wrong because I haven't actually been to the temple myself) is that you have to know handshakes or passwords of some sort. And you have to remember these to get into heaven? What does this even have to do with gospel teachings?! I'm sorry if this is offensive to anyone, but I just really have a hard time with it.

The hardest part for me is that I look at my family and some of my friends that have been to the temple and continue to go on a regular basis, and they seem like normal intelligent people. Sometimes I can't believe that they participate in this kind of thing. rainangel

I am embarrassed now to admit that I did not find ONE thing weird about the temple experience, and I first went in 1976, complete with the throat-slashing and disemboweling and everything. I believed so completely that this was the place where I would find God and everything was sacred! Because I believed so innocently, it was a spiritual experience for me---then and for many years to come. Not the silly movie and all of the ritual, although I did not question them at the time. But I went looking for God, and I connected with the divine there. Many people who have experiences like that interpret it to mean that "the Mormon church is true." I believe that it means that God loves everyone, even Mormons, and He/She will communicate with anyone who seeks.

I can understand how, when reading about the temple ceremony on your computer, it looks obviously ridiculous. But after you've paid the price to get there, been told how special and sacred it is all your life, and you're there with family and friends who all seem to think it's normal, it looks very different. I am also convinced that the secrecy of the temple---the fact that you can't talk about it outside---is a critical ingredient to keeping the whole facade going. If people could sit and talk about it honestly, everyone would realize that the "emperor has no clothes", so to speak.

I know that my story is really unusual compared to nearly all exmo's I've talked to. It makes me realize how totally I had given up any thinking of my own---and I consider myself to be an intelligent person, well-educated. It illustrates the power of group-think. In the same way, when I think now about how I believed in a literal Adam and Eve, Noah's ark, etc., I am embarrassed and amazed.

It took me a LONG time---years---to de-program from the influence of the temple on me. No longer wearing garments was the symbol of my really leaving the faith---it was a big decision for me. It indicatecd that I really didn't believe it any more, and I didn't give my power to anyone else. I've found that brainwashing---which I don't think is too strong a word---has to be reversed. Bigeddy will remember that I was somewhat critical of him when he went through that process, but he was just ahead of me. I had to go through the same thing myself because otherwise it retains its power over you.

Martha Beck, in her own inimitable style, describes the ceremony in this way: "Nowadays the whole murder/suicide pact segment of the ceremony has been eliminated. I think that's a damn shame. I can't imagine anything that could clean out your spiritual sinuses as fast as getting togehter with a bunch of clean-cut, normal-as-pie Mormons and performing a synchronized group mime of your own violent death. I found it so surreal it was truly marvelous, like watching an episode of Leave It to Beaver in which June and Ward take just a moment out of their busy day to agree that if they ever leak the family secrets, they'll hack off each other's limbs." (Leaving the Saints, p. 17)

[helemon]

There was a magician in JS neighborhood for a while. I forget his name. I think JS did know him and did work for him on some of the money digging adventures. I also seem to recall people claming JS had inherited his mantle when he left the area.

http://www.gnosis.org/ahp.htm
"A possible occult mentor to the young Smith has also been identified--a physician named Dr. Luman Walter. Walter was a distant cousin of Smith's future wife and a member of the circle associated with Smith's early treasure quests. By contemporary reports he was not only a physician, but a magician and mesmerist who had traveled extensively in Europe to obtain "profound learning"--probably including knowledge of alchemy, Paracelcian medicine, and hermetic lore."

[miss taken]

http://www.gnosis.org/ahp.htm
"A possible occult mentor to the young Smith has also been identified--a physician named Dr. Luman Walter. Walter was a distant cousin of Smith's future wife and a member of the circle associated with Smith's early treasure quests. By contemporary reports he was not only a physician, but a magician and mesmerist who had traveled extensively in Europe to obtain "profound learning"--probably including knowledge of alchemy, Paracelcian medicine, and hermetic lore."

I wonder sometimes if the Prophet knew about John Dee. He is a little known, but incredibly interesting character who lived during the British Tudor Period.
He had a great brain, was a great mathematician, a deep thinker, and became involved with hermeticism after having visions of angels and so forth. There are some parallels with JS. He created an Adamic type of language, and alphabet, and went searching for ways to make Gold... Interesting.

Here is a link, but a google on John Dee will bring up lots of good info.

http://www.mysteriousbritain.co.uk/occult/john_dee.html

Mary

[aether]

I wonder sometimes if the Prophet knew about John Dee. He is a little known, but incredibly interesting character who lived during the British Tudor Period.
He had a great brain, was a great mathematician, a deep thinker, and became involved with hermeticism after having visions of angels and so forth. There are some parallels with JS. He created an Adamic type of language, and alphabet, and went searching for ways to make Gold... Interesting.


:Crazy: John Dee's a real person? I think I read about him in a comic book once... I need to look into this.

[miss taken]

:Crazy: John Dee's a real person? I think I read about him in a comic book once... I need to look into this.

Misha, John Dee was very real, and a very interesting character, and indicates what can happen when religious megalomania takes over a person. He ended up wive swapping etc, cause the angels told him to do it!!! Sound familiar!!!

Mary

[helemon]

Misha, John Dee was very real, and a very interesting character, and indicates what can happen when religious megalomania takes over a person. He ended up wive swapping etc, cause the angels told him to do it!!! Sound familiar!!!

Mary

http://www.johndee.org/

[pokatator]

David

I definately agree with you here. I don't see any nobility in the man. To me he was clearly a manipulator. William Law said that Joseph Smith could not bear having other men talked about. All the attention had to be on him.

Free Thinker

That's the only positive characteristic of an egotist, they don't talk about other people.