Las Vegas and the Mormons.

[miss taken]

Watched a great show on the history channel about Las Vegas and the Mormons.

Actually the mormon business men seemed great guys, but were willing to play with the devil so to speak, on the subject of gambling in order to make money.

Anyone know any further details on this. It also brought up Howard Hughes and his involvement with buying up the Vegas hotels through a banker called Parry...

Mary

[why me]

Watched a great show on the history channel about Las Vegas and the Mormons.

Actually the mormon business men seemed great guys, but were willing to play with the devil so to speak, on the subject of gambling in order to make money.

Anyone know any further details on this. It also brought up Howard Hughes and his involvement with buying up the Vegas hotels through a banker called Parry...

Mary

No Las Vegas for me. I have the luck of the Irish without the Blarney Stone. I think the question is: Should Mormon businessmen and women who have temple recommends be involved in the gaming business at all? I always found it amazing just how good members can engage in business which might be in contradiction to the gospel. It is not against the law of the land of course and hence it is okay to make money from it. or some other business which takes advantage of people's addictive weakness es. But then, not all gamblers are addicted but...such people do exist.
Are these business people good upstanding members in the church? Did the program say?
:confused:

[taegan]

No Las Vegas for me. I have the luck of the Irish without the Blarney Stone. I think the question is: Should Mormon businessmen and women who have temple recommends be involved in the gaming business at all? I always found it amazing just how good members can engage in business which might be in contradiction to the gospel. It is not against the law of the land of course and hence it is okay to make money from it. or some other business which takes advantage of people's addictive weakness es. But then, not all gamblers are addicted but...such people do exist.
Are these business people good upstanding members in the church? Did the program say?
:confused:

While I dont care one fig how people make their money (legally that is) I find it alittle hypicritcal that someone who holds a temple recommend, would be involved in something the church opposes. Its like being totally against the 4th amendment but being a gun maker, doesnt make any damn sense. I remember when I got offered a job as the Miller Lite girl (setting up displays at the stores in the Miller Lite girly outfit) my family was appalled that I would support an institution that promoted wasting money on killing brain cells and getting drunk (little did they know I did it for the free beer, LOL) Unfortunately to make money... you have to appeal to the consumers. Its why the Marriot hotels have a bar and you can order porn on your room TV. Its hypicritical, but smart business.

[darkslider]

Its why the Marriot hotels have a bar and you can order porn on your room TV. Its hypicritical, but smart business.

Not in Utah. Adult channels are blacklisted. Any satellite or cable company that provides "hardcore adult entertainment" can be fined millions of dollars.

[miss taken]

Oh these guys were all in very good standing with the church. Some were bishops etc. What was interesting was that the girls who dealt cards or who did waitressing were excommunicated or disfellowshipped, but the guy who bought the Riviera Casino (who was a prominent Utah Mormon Banker) was praised!!! Now I thought that was hypocritical in the first degree.

But then.... the LDS is a corporation full of business men with a lot of business acumen....hmmmmmmmmmm....

Mary

[lsands]

Not in Utah. Adult channels are blacklisted. Any satellite or cable company that provides "hardcore adult entertainment" can be fined millions of dollars.

Darkslider,
This may or may not be the case currently; I don't know. But it definitely was NOT the case five years ago, when a local video store owner was on trial on obscenity charges. Here's an excerpt from an article.

Sex Discreetly Reshapes America's Bottom Lines
By Timothy Egan New York Times Service October 2000
"The Provo video-store chain that Larry Peterman owned in this Utah valley of wide streets and ubiquitous churches carried the kind of rentals found anywhere in the country: from Disney classics to films about the sexual adventures of nurses. Mr. Peterman built a thriving business until he was charged last year with selling obscene material and faced the prospect of bankruptcy and jail.

Just before the trial, Mr. Peterman's lawyer, Randy Spencer, came up with an idea while looking out the window of the courtroom at the Provo Marriott. He sent an investigator to the hotel to make a record of all the sex films that a guest could obtain through the hotel's pay-per-view channels. He then obtained records on how much erotic fare people here were buying from their cable and satellite television providers.

As it turned out, people in Utah County, a place that often boasts of being the most conservative area in the nation, were disproportionately large consumers of the very videos that prosecutors had labeled obscene and illegal. And far more Utah County residents were getting their adult movies from the sky or cable than were getting them from the stores owned by Larry Peterman.

Why file criminal charges against a lone video retailer, Mr. Spencer argued, when some of the biggest corporations in America - including a hotel chain whose board of directors includes W. Mitt Romney, president of the Salt Lake City Olympic Committee, and a satellite broadcaster heavily backed by Rupert Murdoch, chairman of News Corp. - were selling the same product?

''I despise this stuff - some of it is really raunchy,'' said Mr. Spencer, a public defender who described himself as a devout Mormon. ''But the fact is that an awful lot of people here in Utah County are paying to look at porn. What that says to me is that we're normal.''

It took only a few minutes for the jury to find Mr. Peterman not guilty on all charges. His case illustrates what has happened to an industry that used to be confined to the margins of commerce, in the seedy parts of most towns, run by people who never dreamed of taking their companies to Wall Street."
http://www.latterdaylampoon.com/foyer/porno/

[helemon]

Darkslider,
This may or may not be the case currently; I don't know. But it definitely was NOT the case five years ago, when a local video store owner was on trial on obscenity charges. Here's an excerpt from an article.


I think the law is that the porn must not show penetration. It is what you would see on adult cable channels.

[bigeddy]

Two episodes happened while I was teaching for the church in Florida. Tampa Stake was able to get a really cheap rate at the Marriot Hotel on San Marcos Island. They got it because of who owned the hotel chain and the kids were told this. Also it was right at the time that J.Willard Marriot's portrait was on the cover of Ensign magazine. So the kids were set up to see this guy as the quintessential measure of momo success. We went to the hotel and the kids jumped me about the reason there was a minibar in every room and a BOM in the drawer. I had no answer for them. It sent a clear message that was very damaging for what I was trying to teach them. Here was the guy, the actual poster guy whose face was on the cover of the church's official magazine profiting from the sale of booze. What could I say? (other than, "God will judge.")

The other thing happened in Lakeland Stake. The Stake Pres. owned a chain of convenience stores and when Florida legalized the lottery he was selling lottery tickets from his stores while the kids were being told to not participate and that it was evil. They jumped me on this one (scary to be so easy to talk to about tricky things.) At least that man had the testicular fortitude to come to the early morning seminary class and talk to the kids about it. He explained what would happen if he did not sell the tickets and talked of his agonizing over it. (The man is now inactive, churchwise.)

The hypocracy runs deep. Utah county is probably the most confusing place I have ever seen. So much facade that it is sickening. Oh well, signs of an unevolved culture, I guess.

Ed

[darkslider]

Darkslider,
This may or may not be the case currently; I don't know. But it definitely was NOT the case five years ago, when a local video store owner was on trial on obscenity charges. Here's an excerpt from an article.

Sex Discreetly Reshapes America's Bottom Lines
By Timothy Egan New York Times Service October 2000
"The Provo video-store chain that Larry Peterman owned in this Utah valley of wide streets and ubiquitous churches carried the kind of rentals found anywhere in the country: from Disney classics to films about the sexual adventures of nurses. Mr. Peterman built a thriving business until he was charged last year with selling obscene material and faced the prospect of bankruptcy and jail.

Just before the trial, Mr. Peterman's lawyer, Randy Spencer, came up with an idea while looking out the window of the courtroom at the Provo Marriott. He sent an investigator to the hotel to make a record of all the sex films that a guest could obtain through the hotel's pay-per-view channels. He then obtained records on how much erotic fare people here were buying from their cable and satellite television providers.

As it turned out, people in Utah County, a place that often boasts of being the most conservative area in the nation, were disproportionately large consumers of the very videos that prosecutors had labeled obscene and illegal. And far more Utah County residents were getting their adult movies from the sky or cable than were getting them from the stores owned by Larry Peterman.

Why file criminal charges against a lone video retailer, Mr. Spencer argued, when some of the biggest corporations in America - including a hotel chain whose board of directors includes W. Mitt Romney, president of the Salt Lake City Olympic Committee, and a satellite broadcaster heavily backed by Rupert Murdoch, chairman of News Corp. - were selling the same product?

''I despise this stuff - some of it is really raunchy,'' said Mr. Spencer, a public defender who described himself as a devout Mormon. ''But the fact is that an awful lot of people here in Utah County are paying to look at porn. What that says to me is that we're normal.''

It took only a few minutes for the jury to find Mr. Peterman not guilty on all charges. His case illustrates what has happened to an industry that used to be confined to the margins of commerce, in the seedy parts of most towns, run by people who never dreamed of taking their companies to Wall Street."
http://www.latterdaylampoon.com/foyer/porno/

Interesting indeed. My information came from my position working for DirecTV and later from Comcast.

This was only two years ago. . . so things might have changed between the time of this article and then. . . and they may have changed again.

But at the time, at least, PlayboyTV, SKIN CHAN, and Penthouse were all blacklisted from Utah.

As a DirecTV tech, if I authorized any of that for a citizen in Utah, I would get fired.

I do know that they have blacked out broadcasting of that nature since that time for the Utah area. (DirecTV that is).

Bah. Some uptight mormon enforcing his morals upon others is what landed me in jail Saturday.

[helemon]

I do know that they have blacked out broadcasting of that nature since that time for the Utah area. (DirecTV that is).


But what about the adult movies on HBO, Cinemax, Showtime, etc. Are those channels banned as well? What about the erotic stories on the Oxygen channel?


Bah. Some uptight mormon enforcing his morals upon others is what landed me in jail Saturday.

Do tell! You didn't get caught having sex aunatural up the canyons did you? :D

[darkslider]

But what about the adult movies on HBO, Cinemax, Showtime, etc. Are those channels banned as well? What about the erotic stories on the Oxygen channel?

Because those are "syndicated" channels they are allowed. However, they don't show penetration nor "violence that condones promiscuity". At least, that was what we were told to tell people if they asked.



Do tell! You didn't get caught having sex aunatural up the canyons did you? :D

Nope, nothing so fun as that. I was walking around the Provo Towne Center Mall with a formal buttone up shirt. . . with only one button . . . buttoned. Apparently "Appropriate attire including Shirt and Shoes. No Bandanas allowed" means that if I were wearing garments, they couldn't be visible. . . or if I wasn't wearing garments, the parts of my body they would normally cover can't be visible.

The mall security manhandled me and called the cops. They filed for tresspassing. . . the cops ran my id and came up with a warrant from when I was 17. So I got arrested. Spent most of my Saturday night in jail.

The booking officer was kind of stupid though. Gave me another chance at mormon humor.

Cop: What is your religion?
Me: Why?
Cop: Because I have to know.
Me: Ok. I am a member of the Church of Is.
Cop: How do you spell that?
Me E. X. Dash. M. O. R. M. O. N.
Cop: Huh?
Me: *laughs* Just put "agnostic".
Cop: How do you spell that?
Me: You serious? You don't know how to spell agnostic?
Cop: All I know how to spell is "LDS".
Me: Ah, you been booked before?

All in all, I had a blast.

[helemon]

I was walking around the Provo Towne Center Mall with a formal buttone up shirt. . . with only one button . . . buttoned.

:eek: Scandalous!! How dare you flash your navel at those righteous mormon girls! What if that single button had popped off? You would have been half way to shirtless! A grave violation of mall etiquette. :slap: :D

So are their no girls or women walking around with halter tops? What a shame!

I seem to recall a Utah law against being discernably turgid. Is that still on the books?

[taegan]

Not in Utah. Adult channels are blacklisted. Any satellite or cable company that provides "hardcore adult entertainment" can be fined millions of dollars.

In that, you are correct.. but that is just a Utah thing. Having stayed in over 50 different Marriots around the world (Husbands uncle is a big wig at Marriot, so we get family rate wee!), we've always ordered a full mini bar and porn :D I have to tell ya though.. I was quite depressed when I found out SLC was a "dry" city except for the members only bars or at the Jazz game. :duh

[why me]

This is what has troubled me for quite some time. As some of you know I am no capitalist. I could not reconcile myself to the ways in which some outstanding members of the church made their money. It was not illegal but for me it was unethical. Much can be rationalized in the name of making a profit. But of course, there are many Mormons making money by the sweat of their brow in a moral and ethical fashion. Or are there...? Is it ever moral to to make a profit at someone else's labor power? I like the idea of commonality as was the case with the early christians after Christ died. Oh well...maybe I am just a christian and a socialist trying to do my own rationalization process into why I am not monetarily rich...swimming in money.... But what is more 'evil'...making a killing off of someone's labor power (as in outsourcing to the third world) or the simple act of solitary sex (academic wording for masturbation)? One is technically okay but the other is not... :confused:

[elder_nomo]

Watched a great show on the history channel about Las Vegas and the Mormons.

Actually the mormon business men seemed great guys, but were willing to play with the devil so to speak, on the subject of gambling in order to make money.

Anyone know any further details on this. It also brought up Howard Hughes and his involvement with buying up the Vegas hotels through a banker called Parry...

Mary
Hi Mary, I don't have any official word on any of this, but I grew up in Las Vegas so can comment from that perspective.

Mormonism is not the majority religion there, but as Utah's next door neighbor, the church is big and influential. I always wondered why they didn't use their power to work against the "sins" of Sin City. But there seemed to be an understanding that the economy would fall apart without gambling, etc, and no one dared to speak against it. I don't remember ever hearing much talk about it in church.

As I recall, mormons sat on the state gaming board. They supposedly claimed that by doing so they could help ensure the honesty of the games. And the state loved the air of legitimacy it gave - who could question the integrity of the good mormon folk? [who were, of course, making their living off gambling, even if indirectly.]

There were stories about how Howard Hughes liked to hire mormons too. Known for their honesty and loyalty. [I guess he wasn't too concerned about their hypocrisy.]

The church concentrated its fights on less profitable sins. For example, they were fierce in their attacks on gays. The "family values" bandwagon was very popular as long as it didn't affect the pocketbook.

I don't know what things are like now, but I suspect it hasn't changed much.

[miss taken]

Hi Mary, I don't have any official word on any of this, but I grew up in Las Vegas so can comment from that perspective.

Mormonism is not the majority religion there, but as Utah's next door neighbor, the church is big and influential. I always wondered why they didn't use their power to work against the "sins" of Sin City. But there seemed to be an understanding that the economy would fall apart without gambling, etc, and no one dared to speak against it. I don't remember ever hearing much talk about it in church.

As I recall, mormons sat on the state gaming board. They supposedly claimed that by doing so they could help ensure the honesty of the games. And the state loved the air of legitimacy it gave - who could question the integrity of the good mormon folk? [who were, of course, making their living off gambling, even if indirectly.]

There were stories about how Howard Hughes liked to hire mormons too. Known for their honesty and loyalty. [I guess he wasn't too concerned about their hypocrisy.]

The church concentrated its fights on less profitable sins. For example, they were fierce in their attacks on gays. The "family values" bandwagon was very popular as long as it didn't affect the pocketbook.

I don't know what things are like now, but I suspect it hasn't changed much.

Thanks for that perspective Elder Nomo. I think the film makers came to the same conclusion. They couldn't work out why the church would come down hard on the girls for working at the tables, yet ignore the guys who were actually selling stuff to the casinos, be that milk, food or whatever, and even buying up/financing the casinos. It did all seem to be a little hypocritical to say the least.

Mary

[silverfox]

What I find interesting about all this is that....

Because the church IS a corporation and is run like one, they have NO problem whatsoever accepting tithing money regardless of how it was made.

If a member goes to Vegas, wins big time you think the church will say no, thanks, you made that money in a way we feel is immoral so we don't want the tithing? Not only no but HELL no.

They are having no problem taking in tithing from money made off of porn made available by Marriott. Or from alcohol or tobacco sold by member owned stores, etc, etc, etc.

[helemon]

They are having no problem taking in tithing from money made off of porn made available by Marriott. Or from alcohol or tobacco sold by member owned stores, etc, etc, etc.

Of course not. This goes all the way back to Joseph putting a bar in the Mansion House. Just because the church feels something is a sin doesn't mean it shouldn't profit from other people choosing to indulge in the sin. :duh
I wonder if the church owns some coffee plantations in South America? :D

[bigeddy]

As I read the new posts on this thread I was reminded of something we saw during a layover at Las Vegas. We were flying from SanAntonio and laid over in LV. I had watched this TBM family all the way from Texas. Both mom and dad were making sure everyone knew they were TBM and very proud of it. Loud comments on the plane about caffeine (let alone [shudder] beer or wine) and comments about "Well, here we are coming into 'Sin City'" as we descended into LV. (most of these coming from the mom, who had gone to seed after having 2 children.) As we waited in the airport during a 90 min. layover this mom made it a point to camp herself and her 2 boys right in the aisle in everyone's way and started playing games with the boys to show us all what a wonderful TBM mom she was. :Puking :Puking

At one point the littlest son, about 2.5 yrs. old was fascinated by the lights and noises of a slot machine and walked over to it. This turd of a woman actually screamed and ran over to him. She slapped his hand (he touched the evil machine) and said very loud; "we don't touch wicked things" and pulled him back into the aisle so he could remain in everyone's way. It smacked of many momo idiotic dramas; no boundaries, no wisdom, no common sense, no compassion for a little boy fascinated by pretty lights and cool music, no ability to just be and let others be, a constant need to prove worthiness . . . . . . :Puking :Puking

(It was all hilarious and made the long trip back very amusing)

Ed