Mo sayings to loath or live by. [Archive]

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Born Free

1st June 2005, 07:13 PM

Mo scripture & sayings pounded in by repetition as youth do not easily dissolve.

Some (most) I regard as drivel, but some have either shaped my philosophy or I resonated with them when exposed to them, and I see them as useful regardless how I feel about Mormonism.

Do you feel the same way?

What are some you loath?

What are some you still value?

As an example, D&C 121 about the abuse of power is a central tenant of my thinking these days.

Daryl

noodle

1st June 2005, 10:19 PM

Born Free

1st June 2005, 11:18 PM

I have always thought that the "Families Can Be Together Forever" motto is truly a double edged sword. Folks (including me in my former life) have been/are drawn to it because it sounds like something that SHOULD be attractive to us. Sortof like puppies and kittens, I guess. ;) However, it isn't an attractive option for many folks I know. I remember my husband's grandmother saying that she didn't like her spouse on this earth...so why in hell would she want to be with him on others? :D That always made me laugh.

I had a sizable falling out with my FoO after leaving the Church, not directly related, but I am sure my 'outness' was a contributory factor to what went down.

One day I saw a saying to the effect 'Your family is those people with whom you share values and world view. Sometimes that coincides with your blood relatives'.

The instant I read that I had a sense of peace come over me, which in some ways surprised me. I guess I was carrying a charge around the semi-conscious expectation that I should have close and comfortable relationships with blood family.

I have since concluded I had taken on board that Mo 'families' message much more than I had appreciated.

'Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father in Heaven is perfect' is one I now see as toxic. Again, while in the Church or even just out, I would have seen it as a harmless ideal.

I now see it very differently, placing one in a hostile and counter-productive relationship with the ideal of growth and improvement. I now see it as fuel for mask-wearing, and dishonesty..... one behaviour behind closed doors, and another when you open them. That is crazy-making!

Daryl

helemon

2nd June 2005, 12:01 AM

"What er thou art act well thy part"
Unless your gay :duh

Born Free

2nd June 2005, 12:09 AM

"What er thou art act well thy part"
Unless your gay :duh

Was that MoSpeak or Shakespear?

I am not familiar with that one!

Daryl

dogzilla

2nd June 2005, 09:53 AM

"As I have loved you, love one another."

This flies in the face of homophobia, misogyny, bigotry, racism and other forms of discrimination. It actually agrees with the Wiccan Rede, "An first ye harm none." Both Jesus and the witches have been teaching for centuries the idea that all you really need to do is not hurt other people and that acceptance, patience, tolerance, and understanding are all acts of love.

That includes keeping your judgments to yourself, and keeping your own morals and values out of the legislation so as not to impose them on others who do not feel the same way. Forcing one's religion down another's throat does not strike me as an act of love toward humanity... I quote this to any Christian who happens to be behaving in a very non-Christian manner at that moment.

Christians seem to really hate it when apostates/nonchristians/pagans quote scripture back at 'em. :D

peter_mary

2nd June 2005, 10:00 AM

"Teach them correct principles and let them govern themselves."

I always thought that if Mormonism REALLY believed this, then I'd still be there. Unfortunately, it turns out that you don't get enough control if that's all you do, so you have to implement rules, standards, and disciplinary measures for failure to comply. :duh

Still, I like the ideal, and attempt to apply it to my own family when teaching and living with my children.

Peter_Mary

helemon

2nd June 2005, 10:31 AM

Was that MoSpeak or Shakespear?

I am not familiar with that one!

Daryl

It's a favorite David McKay saying that he saw while on his mission engraved into a piece of masonry. There is a copy of it at the MTC.

elder_nomo

2nd June 2005, 12:08 PM

"What er thou art act well thy part"
Unless your gay :duh
"Men are, that they might have joy"
[unless you're gay... hmmm... do i detect a pattern here?]

Even if you're not gay, this seems to be a pretty much forgotten idea in momo land.
But this one is straight from the BoM.

peter_mary

2nd June 2005, 01:31 PM

"Men are, that they might have joy"
[unless you're gay... hmmm... do i detect a pattern here?]

Even if you're not gay, this seems to be a pretty much forgotten idea in momo land.
But this one is straight from the BoM.

Elder_nomo,

Tragically, thanks to the likes of Bruce R. McConkie (::clears throat, hawks loogi:: ), the word "joy" is interpreted to mean, "eternal increase." In other words, you don't actually get to be joyful as in 'happy' here in this life, but you DO get to boink your celestial wives through the eternities. See, there's the catch for gay men...they can never have joy, (and aren't interested in Joy... :D ) according to the intricacies of Mo doctrine.

So NOW you understand why you weren't ever happy as a Mormon! (Just helpin' out there, dude :) )

Peter_Mary

elder_nomo

2nd June 2005, 02:37 PM

Elder_nomo,

Tragically, thanks to the likes of Bruce R. McConkie (::clears throat, hawks loogi:: ), the word "joy" is interpreted to mean, "eternal increase." In other words, you don't actually get to be joyful as in 'happy' here in this life, but you DO get to boink your celestial wives through the eternities. See, there's the catch for gay men...they can never have joy, (and aren't interested in Joy... :D ) according to the intricacies of Mo doctrine.

So NOW you understand why you weren't ever happy as a Mormon! (Just helpin' out there, dude :) )

Peter_Mary
Thanks for the reminder, P_M. I guess I forgot what it's all about.
As I see it, though, gay men aren't the only ones getting the shaft [ :o sorry]. Straight women may get to participate in the joyful eternal increase, but they will have to wait their turn while hubby "increases" with his other wives. :Puking

free thinker

2nd June 2005, 02:53 PM

As man is now, god once was,as god is now, man may become.

Frankly I dont want to be a god!! Why would I want to be a god? If I am a mormon god I have to have multiple wives. I dont even have one right now, by choice. Why would I want many? There are plenty of folks out there who may think that creating and populating worlds would be great. Not me!! If there is a post life, and I think there is, I want to spend my time aquiring knowledge, and resting from cares like paying bills, and worrying about dieing!!

Let me make this perfectly clear. I DO NOT WANT TO BE A GOD!!!!!!!!!!! :mad:

Maybe a doctor, but not a god!! ;)

Free Thinker

peter_mary

2nd June 2005, 03:34 PM

Thanks for the reminder, P_M. I guess I forgot what it's all about.
As I see it, though, gay men aren't the only ones getting the shaft [ :o sorry]. Straight women may get to participate in the joyful eternal increase, but they will have to wait their turn while hubby "increases" with his other wives. :Puking

Precisely...the prophets have never said, "Woman is that she might have joy." That was no mistake. It's all about us boys! Hurray for us!

Dogzilla, be a good girl now, and show aether how to make me a sandwich. :cool:

Peter_Mary

nate

2nd June 2005, 04:32 PM

dogzilla

2nd June 2005, 04:45 PM

Precisely...the prophets have never said, "Woman is that she might have joy." That was no mistake. It's all about us boys! Hurray for us!

Dogzilla, be a good girl now, and show aether how to make me a sandwich. :cool:

Peter_Mary

I gotcher sandwich right here!

::holds up knuckle samich::

:slap:

dogzilla

2nd June 2005, 04:48 PM

"If you do what you are Supposed to do...."

:mad:

I'm not a slave. Nobody tells me what I'm "supposed to do". This is the best example of the Mo outlook on life. We're all little kids in a child labor plant, who's only purpose is to do what we're told. If we follow orders, don't complain, and smile, we'll get a damn cookie at the end of the day. If not...solitary confinement!!
:Puking

But you don't even get the cookie at the end of the day. You have to wait until death.

That sucks. I could never figure out why you have to live your whole life as if what you HOPE happens after that really does. Why not just live in the present, like the American Indians? (Or was it the Aborigines? I read about same native peoples who had trouble converting to Christianity because there were no words in their native language to describe the concept of the afterlife.)

Screw burning in eternal hell and damnation... I'm havin' another cup of coffee.

Peter_Mary! Go make me a samich!
:p

darkslider

2nd June 2005, 05:26 PM

My list of loathsome comments in nor particular order:

1. New and Everlasting Covenant.

2. Joseph was a martyr.

3. It's time for your PPI!

4. Have you given any thought to going on a mission?

5. "Little factories"

6. I know that Joseph was a prophet.

7. Hell, just place the entire D&C right here.

8. "unpaid ministery"

9. "We're not anti-gay. We're pro-family."

10. Add the Pearl of Great Price here.

11. "I don't know that we teach that."

12. "Fastest growing Church."

13. "Give me definative proof of your anti-mormon claims."

14. Avoid even the appearance of evil.

15. Personal revelation. Ooh. I hate that one.

16. "Free Agency"

17. Brigham Young.

18. Adam is God.

19. Adam boned Mary.

20. Where is the goddammed hat?

I could probably keep going along that vein for a while. . . but I have work to do.

miss taken

3rd June 2005, 04:08 AM

Okay here goes...been thinking about this one for a couple of days.

HATE

1. Be ye therefore perfect....(sets you up for failure everytime)
2. Satan's speech in the temple.. (sets you up for failure everytime)
3. The church is true (huh)
4. The organisation is perfect, its the people who are not
( um...don't think so)
5. Coloured people didn't put their hands up to support Jesus in the pre-existence. (That may be debunked now, but it was taught as DOCTRINE when I was first in the church)
6. The bit where in the D & C Joseph justifies the taking of virgins that are given to him by god.
7. Pray and you WILL find the answer (and when it doesn't come)
8. You are not being righteous enough (nope and never will be perfect)
9. Specific to missionaries..... They are a 'golden' family, or he/she is a 'golden' person.....based soley on their receptiveness to the TRUTH of the church, if they question they aint golden....

Sayings I like....

um.....
um......
um.....
(gosh I must be in a grouchy mood this am. Will have to really think about that...) Oh dear.

peter_mary

3rd June 2005, 11:44 AM

As man is now, god once was,as god is now, man may become.

Let me make this perfectly clear. I DO NOT WANT TO BE A GOD!!!!!!!!!!! :mad:

Free Thinker

You know, I actually think that this was one of the only truly creative, enobling things Joseph contributed to the world religious canon (ironic that it isn't canonized...)

Those who watch this forum know that I am a TBA (True blue athiest). However, when I think of the creative force of the universe, and that I unfolded in that universe and am of that universe, I realize that I am made of the same "stuff" as the universe. If I choose to think of the creative impulse of the universe as "god", then I am of the same "stuff" that god is.

This is quite contrary to the traditional religious view, which views the creator as a wholly different creature from his creations, in the same way that the potter is wholly different from his pots.

For me, this was one of the only redeaming features of Mormon Doctrine, because it suggested there is no meaningful differentiation between me and god, or me and the universe. I happen to believe that's true.

Now, that may also be completely different than what Joe was thinking when he said it, (probably more along the lines of how free thinker was taking it), but still, it's implications are broader than it's direct meaning.

Peter_Mary

flotsam

3rd June 2005, 02:40 PM

'Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father in Heaven is perfect' is one I now see as toxic. Again, while in the Church or even just out, I would have seen it as a harmless ideal.

I now see it very differently, placing one in a hostile and counter-productive relationship with the ideal of growth and improvement. I now see it as fuel for mask-wearing, and dishonesty..... one behaviour behind closed doors, and another when you open them. That is crazy-making!

Daryl

This reminds me of something my mission president promoted. I heard him say in a zone conference once: "If you want to be a better person, fake it. Soon it will become habit and you really will be a better person."

I've seen that same maxim elsewhere, but even on my mission, something about it rubbed me the wrong way. I knew what he was getting at, he was saying: "Now you mediocre missionaries out there (Elder Flotsam, I'm looking at you!), take a look at your Zone Leaders and APs, now those are MISSIONARIES. Admire their boundless energy. Revel in their ability to get a committment out of you. Rejoice in sales abilities that would make a used car salesman drool. And remember, that each of these qualities is a manifestation of great spirituality. So act like ZL's and AP's. Fake it. And soon you'll finally be a productive member of this organization."

Now I'm starting to get a perspective on what was bothering me, namely: I think it's more important to find out WHO you are than to try being better. And faking something is not the high road to self-discovery.

peter_mary

3rd June 2005, 02:50 PM

This reminds me of something my mission president promoted. I heard him say in a zone conference once: "If you want to be a better person, fake it. Soon it will become habit and you really will be a better person."

I can do you one better, my dear flotsam. One of the last times I was actually in Church, I heard a High Councilman say the following. "You've all heard that seeing is believing. Well, when it comes to the gospel, believing is seeing."

And then he proceeded to say how, when you convince yourself that something is true, you'll discover evidence that it is (my words, not his, but that was the message).

Of course, he's right. That's what paradigms are all about. You will only see evidence to support what you decide you believe, which is why I'm so proud of all you...you somehow managed to see differently than your paradigm dictated. Kudos to you!

Peter_Mary

elder_nomo

3rd June 2005, 03:05 PM

This reminds me of something my mission president promoted. I heard him say in a zone conference once: "If you want to be a better person, fake it. Soon it will become habit and you really will be a better person."

I've seen that same maxim elsewhere, but even on my mission, something about it rubbed me the wrong way. I knew what he was getting at, he was saying: "Now you mediocre missionaries out there (Elder Flotsam, I'm looking at you!), take a look at your Zone Leaders and APs, now those are MISSIONARIES. Admire their boundless energy. Revel in their ability to get a committment out of you. Rejoice in sales abilities that would make a used car salesman drool. And remember, that each of these qualities is a manifestation of great spirituality. So act like ZL's and AP's. Fake it. And soon you'll finally be a productive member of this organization."

Now I'm starting to get a perspective on what was bothering me, namely: I think it's more important to find out WHO you are than to try being better. And faking something is not the high road to self-discovery.
Flotsam, I can't remember where, but I also heard that same advice.
Fake it until it becomes real.
In other words, be pro-active - wash your own brain!

noodle

3rd June 2005, 04:41 PM

be pro-active - wash your own brain!

OOOOOOO....I REALLY like that saying. Serious! Perhaps I'll cross-stitch it and hang it in my kitchen. :D

mamajama

helemon

3rd June 2005, 05:24 PM

OOOOOOO....I REALLY like that saying. Serious! Perhaps I'll cross-stitch it and hang it in my kitchen. :D

mamajama

Or as another T-Shirt saying?

Picture of a Brain with why soap suds on it and the phrase
Wash your own brain! above it. :D

Born Free

3rd June 2005, 05:32 PM

You mean fake it till you make it,
means
Faking perfection until you become perfect
and not
Fake it till you perfect fake.

I could have sworn it was the latter from what I observed!

Daryl

darkslider

3rd June 2005, 07:25 PM

You know, I actually think that this was one of the only truly creative, enobling things Joseph contributed to the world religious canon (ironic that it isn't canonized...)

Mild correction. Joseph Smith didn't come up with this couplet. He may have come up with the idea. . . but the phrase was someone else's. . . small wonder.

Although it is not found in any of Mormonism's Standard Works, an expression which precisely defines the LDS teaching that men can become Gods was coined by fifth LDS President Lorenzo Snow. In June of 1840, Snow declared, "As man is, God once was; as God is, man may become." Besides correctly illustrating the Latter-day Saint teaching that God was once a mere mortal man, this couplet also declares that man has the potential to become God! According to LDS theology, eternal life is synonymous with godhood. In the words of LDS Apostle Bruce McConkie, "Thus those who gain eternal life receive exaltation ... They are gods." (Mormon Doctrine, pg. 237).

On page 115 of his book entitled The Gospel Through the Ages, LDS Seventy Milton R. Hunter wrote, "No prophet of record gave more complete and forceful explanations of the doctrine that men may become Gods than did the American Prophet." If eventual Godhood was such a common teaching among early Christians (as Mormons insist), why do we have to go to Joseph Smith to find out about it? If there was indeed a cover-up, it was surely one of unbelievable magnitude.

Though some Mormons, ignorant of their faith, may argue Godhood is not a teaching peculiar to Mormonism, history proves that it indeed was and is. Both the "Journal of Discourses" (JOD) and the "Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith" (TPJS) record that, on April 6, 1844, LDS Church founder Joseph Smith preached to a congregation of 20,000 saying, "Here then is eternal life - to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God the same as all Gods have done before you" (JOD 6:4; TPJS p.346). Brigham Young, the second prophet and president of the Mormon Church, delivered a message in the Salt Lake Tabernacle on August 8, 1852, in which he affirmed this teaching when he said, "The Lord created you and me for the purpose of becoming Gods like Himself" (JOD 3:93).

Biblical Denial

History does bear record to people wishing to become Gods; however, one would be hard-pressed to find a biblical basis for this teaching. Isaiah 43:10 makes it clear that no man, Mormon included, will ever attain Godhood for it says, "I am He; before Me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after Me."

Regardless of what Joseph Smith and other Mormon leaders have said about men passing on to Godhood, the fact remains that the God of the Bible, who is all knowing, says He knows of no other Gods (Isaiah 44:8). Surely this should prove that no mortal has ever attained Godhood; not Joseph Smith, not Brigham Young, no one!

The God of the Bible adamantly declares that He is the first and the last. From eternity past to eternity future, there will never be a true God besides the one God as presented in the Bible (Isaiah 45:5).

Mormon Rebuttal

Mormons will often use verses such as John 10:34 to counter these biblical truths. Here Jesus stands at the famous "porch of Solomon" and responds to the blindness of the religious leaders of his day. He rebukes their unbelief by quoting from Psalm 82:6 which reads, "I have said, Ye are gods." Some Mormons have interpreted this to mean Jesus Himself said that men could one day attain the level of deity. The problem with such an interpretation is that Jesus does not say, "Ye can become Gods." The text reads, "Ye are Gods." Not even Mormons believe that they are Gods right now. At best they are what many LDS leaders have called, "gods in embryo" (The Miracle of Forgiveness, p.286). Successfully interpreting this passage lies in figuring out what the word "gods" means. Fortunately, we can discover this by the Bible itself.

When Psalm 82 is examined, it is not hard to see that this short psalm of Asaph is actually a word of rebuke. While Mormons are quick to quote verse six, they fail to include verse seven which states that the gods of verse six "shall die like men." If gods can die, then eternal life, as defined by Mormonism, is not very eternal.

The gods of Psalm 82 are nothing more than men who, by God's sovereign design, are chosen to rule over other men. In fact, the word "Elohim," used in verse six, is often translated "judges" in the Old Testament. An example of this can be found in Exodus 21:6 where it reads, "Then his master shall bring him unto the judges [Elohim] ..." Another example is Exodus 22:8 which reads, "If the thief be not found, then the master of the house shall be brought unto the judges ..." Again, the Hebrew Elohim is used.

No doubt many Latter-day Saints will look upon this interpretation with suspicion. Should that be the case, one of Mormonism's most respected scholars, Apostle James Talmage, should be quoted. In his book "Jesus The Christ," Talmage agreed that Jesus was referring to divinely appointed judges when he wrote, "Divinely Appointed Judges Called 'gods.' In Psalm 82:6, judges invested by divine appointment are called 'gods.' To this the Savior referred in His reply to the Jews in Solomon's Porch. Judges so authorized officiated as the representatives of God and are honored by the exalted title 'gods'" (pg. 501).

Some Latter-day Saints have used I John 3:2 to support the Mormon claim that men can become Gods. This passage reads, "Beloved, now are ye the sons of God, and it doeth not yet appear what we shall be; but we know that, when He shall appear, we shall be like Him." Mormons insist that to be "like Him" means they will have all of the attributes of God Himself. If that is so, does that mean a Mormon will someday become omnipotent? To have more than one omnipotent being defies the very meaning of the word. Furthermore, to draw such a conclusion once again ignores the many passages of the Bible which declare the existence of only one God.

Conclusion

To Mormons who think they will someday become Gods of their own realms, we ask, "Did you make the heavens and the earth?" If not, consider the following passages from Jeremiah 10:10, 11:

"But the Lord is the true God, He is the living God, and an everlasting king: at His wrath the earth shall tremble, and the nations shall not be able to abide his indignation. Thus shall ye say unto them, The gods that have not made the heavens and the earth, even they shall perish from the earth, and from under these heavens."

If the Lord is the only true God then will you be a false god? If He is the only living God, will you be a dead God? If you hope to become a God but did not make the heavens and the earth, according to the above passages, you can expect to perish. It may be argued that this verse refers to pagan idols. However that may be, let us not forget Psalm 96:5, which says that God considers all the gods of the nations as idols, whether they are hewn from wood, or stone, or "exalted" through good works. All will perish.

Even if Godhood was a biblical possibility, obtaining it according to Mormonism would be in and of itself an impossible feat. According to Bruce McConkie, "... only those who obey the fulness of the gospel law will inherit eternal life" (Mormon Doctrine, pg. 237). It would be safe to say that most Mormons do not even know what the "fulness of gospel law" includes, much less obey it.

The possibility of man becoming divine is a man-made promise that the true God will not honor. It was His plan that we become His children by faith in Jesus Christ, to live with Him throughout eternity as His people (not fellow Gods). In and of ourselves we can do nothing to earn our way there. That debt was paid by the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ Himself. Because our good works on their own are like filthy rags in God's sight (Isaiah 64:6), it is imperative that we forsake any such hope of self-exaltation and Godhood and trust in Christ alone for the eternally true salvation that only He can give. Only then will you be able to rejoice at the sight of the new heaven and new earth and hear:

"... a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself shall be with them, and He shall be their God." Rev. 21:3

helemon

3rd June 2005, 08:01 PM

Mild correction. Joseph Smith didn't come up with this couplet. He may have come up with the idea. . . but the phrase was someone else's. . . small wonder.

Although it is not found in any of Mormonism's Standard Works, an expression which precisely defines the LDS teaching that men can become Gods was coined by fifth LDS President Lorenzo Snow. In June of 1840, Snow declared, "As man is, God once was; as God is, man may become."
http://lds-mormon.com/time.shtml
At first, Hinckley seemed to qualify the idea that men could become gods, suggesting that "it's of course an ideal. It's a hope for a wishful thing," but later affirmed that "yes, of course they can." (He added that women could too, "as companions to their husbands. They can't conceive a king without a queen.") On whether his church still holds that God the Father was once a man, he sounded uncertain, "I don't know that we teach it. I don't know that we emphasize it... I understand the philosophical background behind it, but I don't know a lot about it, and I don't think others know a lot about it."

http://lds-mormon.com/gbh.shtml
Q: There are some significant differences in your beliefs. For instance, don't Mormons believe that God was once a man?

A: I wouldn't say that. There was a little couplet coined, "As man is, God once was. As God is, man may become.'' Now that's more of a couplet than anything else.

miss taken

4th June 2005, 03:30 AM

Peter Mary, Darkslider, and Helemon, I am finding this really interesting. Thanks for the explanations Darkslider.

My own thoughts, probably without any scriptoral support at all is that

we are gods, ie we belong to him, we have him within us, so something that says...you are 'children of God' is something I quite like, but nice to go further to emphasise that he is literally within us. So 'search for God within' is also nice. I like any idea that connects rather than separates us from the great universe whether it be self-made of intelligent design!!!

Mary

dancinfree

4th June 2005, 08:46 PM

Those who watch this forum know that I am a TBA (True blue athiest). However, when I think of the creative force of the universe, and that I unfolded in that universe and am of that universe, I realize that I am made of the same "stuff" as the universe. If I choose to think of the creative impulse of the universe as "god", then I am of the same "stuff" that god is.

This is quite contrary to the traditional religious view, which views the creator as a wholly different creature from his creations, in the same way that the potter is wholly different from his pots.

For me, this was one of the only redeaming features of Mormon Doctrine, because it suggested there is no meaningful differentiation between me and god, or me and the universe. I happen to believe that's true.

Now, that may also be completely different than what Joe was thinking when he said it, (probably more along the lines of how free thinker was taking it), but still, it's implications are broader than it's direct meaning.

Peter_Mary

Hi Peter_Mary!

Just taking some time to go through some of these threads and how you put this sparked my insides! This definition of God or Creator (put in your own defining words) describes how I feel very well also. I do believe in some "creative impulse" and for me I choose to call it God or something divine...but it is a part of me and through me. All that I see, feel and experience to me is all part of this "creative impulse". I just love how you put this..thanks!

helemon

4th June 2005, 10:35 PM

Live within your means
Avoid debt

Don't put off having children!!!!
Don't use birth control.

bigeddy

5th June 2005, 11:46 AM

I hated this song until I began to sing it correctly. (My home had little beauty for a male).

There is beauty all around
When there's no one home!

There is joy in every sound
When there's no one home.

I have been singing this song, with the above words for years. And, I don't sing it softly. I have gotten many stares and questions from folks (I sang it this way when I was TBM). I would explain that it is not always true that having the gospel makes a happy home.

Ed

Born Free

5th June 2005, 05:47 PM

free thinker

5th June 2005, 11:52 PM

Now, that may also be completely different than what Joe was thinking when he said it, (probably more along the lines of how free thinker was taking it), but still, it's implications are broader than it's direct meaning

Yes Peter Mary you are correct to assume that my aversion is to becoming a" mormon god". I relish the idea of eternal progression, and hope it is indeed a fact, if there is a post-mortal life.

What would be abhorent to me would be eternally trying to perfect the paradigm of mormonism. That, to me, would be a dreadful existence indeed.

But to become one with, as Spong puts it, " the ground of all being", would be different. That, I think, could be wonderful!!

Free Thinker