Article: Mall costs may hit billion dollars

[silverfox]

http://www.sltrib.com/utah/ci_2777341

Remember how the church purchased the malls downtown? 500 million dollars after all is said and done?

Wonder if a person has to be LDS to live in the housing they are going to build?

Looks like they will also close the malls on Sunday. (oh what a surprise)

Also stated is that none of the money for this will come from tithing. WHATEVER.

Just think how many starving people a billion dollars could help. sigh. *shakes head*



Article Last Updated: 6/03/2005 07:46 AM


Mall tab could hit $1 billion
Council member says cost may be double the LDS Church estimate
By Heather May
The Salt Lake Tribune
Salt Lake Tribune

The LDS Church will invest close to $1 billion when it remakes downtown Salt Lake City's two malls - which will be closed on Sundays - according to Salt Lake City Council members.
The price tag is double initial estimates. And whatever the church is doing with all that money, the preliminary design has impressed mall critic Mayor Rocky Anderson.
The mayor met with LDS Presiding Bishop H. David Burton, who is in charge of the mall makeovers, at Burton's office Thursday. And while Anderson has criticized the church for its secrecy, he refused to discuss what he learned, saying the meeting was confidential.
However, he did release a statement saying "many of the concerns previously raised have been met by innovative design solutions. This will be a unique, exciting project bringing hundreds of new residents to the downtown area and attracting millions of people to beautiful retail, residential and office facilities."
While the church is still publicly mum about its mixed-used design - though it presented preliminary concepts recently to City Council members and business leaders - it plans to seek more public comment than the city requires as soon as this summer.
"I appreciate their sensitivity to the need to do that," said Councilwoman Jill Remington Love.
The church must ask public opinion if it proposes a sky bridge to link Crossroads Plaza and ZCMI Center - an element one council member said remains in the design to satisfy retailer demands - because that would require changing the downtown master plan. But the church doesn't have to solicit comments on the overall design.
Like Anderson, Love has been skeptical of the plan to rebuild the malls, but came away from the meeting "excited."
"I really felt like the church had heard us and heard us and heard us on every single issue. You just become so aware of how invested they are in our downtown. It's going to be unlike anything we've seen before in this state."
The design still includes housing - a key component to revitalizing downtown - as initially planned. Councilwoman Nancy Saxton said the church and its developers are looking at condos and apartments. While she would like to see them add "high, high-end" housing in the $1 million price range, she said they are looking at less expensive, but still pricey, units. The housing will be on both the Crossroads and ZCMI Center blocks, but the "million-dollar" vistas will be from Crossroads, where dwellers will have views of the Salt Lake Temple, she added.
Councilman Dave Buhler said the design is "even better than I had imagined."
No one wanted to give away details. Council members said it remains an enclosed mall, but "you might feel like you're outside," Love said. And Saxton said the design "creates more of a streetscape" both inside and outside the structures and has a "solarium feel."
Saxton said there could be green space atop the mall structures, similar to what the church did by adding landscaping on the roof of its Conference Center.
And council members said the church wants the malls to be closed on Sunday - ZCMI Center already is - but it hasn't ruled out alcohol sales at planned restaurants.
"Their commitment is still nothing on Sunday," Saxton said.
As for the alcohol issue, "they are willing to recognize state law. That's all I'm going to say," she added.
One council member said the church would be spending close to $1 billion. On Thursday, church spokesman Dale Bills would say only that "gross costs are quite different than net costs. Estimates of net costs to the church and its partners continue to be in the range previously announced." That was $500 million. Church officials maintain none of the mall money would come from members' tithing payments. Saxton said council members have been curious to see what the mayor would think of the plans.
Anderson had expressed fears the church was blowing an opportunity to create a "great city," saying malls offer inauthentic experiences.

[miss taken]

The Fair boards are doing a good discussion on this topic today...

As someone over there said, the church is a corporation, and it makes sense that it is buying key land in order to keep its influence strong in down town salt-lake. That way is keeps more control over what goes on there.

As for whether the money comes from tithing, well.... I suppose if you go back far enough... it did originally come from tithing, even if the churches known business acumen? means that the money they invested has significantly grown.

Money is power, I think the leaders of the church have always been aware of this.

[peter_mary]

You know, call me a cynic, but this stinks to me. First of all, it's apparent that there are two ways to take over a government...beat in war, or buy it. The Church is expanding it's influence so wide and so deep in the State of Utah that it is successfully creating the theocratic State Brigham Young sought in creating Deseret. Anyone who owns this much property in the heart of downtown owns EVERYTHING about that downtown...including the decision makers.

Second, does it make you just want to barf :Puking that they are planning "million dollar" condos with views of Temple Square? I mean, think of the optics here! "Pay enough money, and you can look DOWN on the Lord's heaven on earth." Oh my hell! Think of what this is SAYING to people!

Ladies and gentleman of the jury, if you ever doubted that money is what moves the Church, doubt no more. This is, frankly, frightening to me. I don't care if it's "good business"...most businesses don't pretend to BE anything more than a money-generating machine. This particular business claims to be God's machine, and unlike, say, WalMart or Microsoft, they claim to have God's endorsement on everything they do. This is so heinously wrong I can't even find words to describe it...

Next up...Mitt Romney for President, so the Church can start buying up Washington D.C. ...

Peter :Puking Mary

[miss taken]

Hey Peter Mary,

I just wonder, if the church was able to expand its influence whether it would become a mormon taliban, or whether it would allow people their God given Free Agency to choose their own theological/ethical belief system???

I wonder if it would enforce its own standards on others, aka WoW, chastity etc.

The way it deals with its own dissenters now, perhaps is telling though I have heard GA's welcome inactives and 'apostates' back with open arms, should they desire to return to the fold. (they must comply with the rules of course)

I just wonder what kinds of theocracy they would really create?

[helemon]

You know what it needs is a giant indoor water park! They are all the rage out here in the Midwest. :D But then we wouldn't want all those scantily clad G-less people wandering about inside a building owned by the church would we? :slap:

Any plans to still use part of it as a MTC SLC? Or is just going to be homes for the rich and famous of SLC?

[silverfox]

The Fair boards are doing a good discussion on this topic today...

As someone over there said, the church is a corporation, and it makes sense that it is buying key land in order to keep its influence strong in down town salt-lake. That way is keeps more control over what goes on there.

As for whether the money comes from tithing, well.... I suppose if you go back far enough... it did originally come from tithing, even if the churches known business acumen? means that the money they invested has significantly grown.

Money is power, I think the leaders of the church have always been aware of this.

Makes me wonder what businesses would even want to be downtown or move downtown? Seems like this is not doing downtown any good. Unless of course you are Mormon.

But Salt Lake has lots of diversity these days. So is the church just trying to attract Mo owned businesses and tenants? Should I add RICH Mo owned businesses and tenants? If that is the case that is a very poor business move, IMHO. However, the church won't care because there is plenty of money where that billion dollars is coming from. They didn't have to work hard for that money other than investing it and watching it grow.

The need to control and dominate is frightening and stifling. It would be easier to swallow if the church was creating homeless shelters, free clinics, resident homes for senior citizens, low cost housing, etc. Something to give back to the community.

This makes me ill :Puking I am sooooooooo glad I am no longer a part of this $hit.

What the hell was Rocky thinking? And he's not even Mo.

[peter_mary]

Hey Peter Mary,

I just wonder, if the church was able to expand its influence whether it would become a mormon taliban, or whether it would allow people their God given Free Agency to choose their own theological/ethical belief system???

I wonder if it would enforce its own standards on others, aka WoW, chastity etc.

The way it deals with its own dissenters now, perhaps is telling though I have heard GA's welcome inactives and 'apostates' back with open arms, should they desire to return to the fold. (they must comply with the rules of course)

I just wonder what kinds of theocracy they would really create?
Because the Church is a Western institution, it would probably "claim" freedom of religion (in the hypotheical theocracy), but I think it perfectly safe to assume that it would impose it's standards to whatever extent possible. For instance, if it could buy all the retailers in the State of Utah (hypothetically) you would NOT be able to find an open store or gas station on Sunday, regardless of your religious affiliation. You would NOT be able to wear what you want, watch what you want, read what you want, listen to what you want, say what you want, drink what you want...all would be carefully controlled by the Church. Now granted, things would be clean and tidy, just like the Church, but diversity would be gone, free thinking would gone, free expression would be gone... Just look at how they treat that block they purchased from the city...they have tried everything they can to impose their standards on what SHOULD be public property, including limiting the freedom of speech, the freedom of assembly, the freedom of expression...

Remember, in the Church, they claim that you "only have free agency in as much as you choose correctly." Now think about that. "You are free to choose as long as you choose what we tell you." They will be glad to tell an ever-expanding audience what they can choose. The Church only APPEARS to believe in free agency because they don't weild enough control...yet. But look what happens if you exercise your free agency in the Church? You get escorted to the door at a high rate of speed unless you keep your "free choices" aligned with their standards. That's not free agency, that's coersion.

Yeah, Taliban it would be. At least that's how it appears from here in outer darkness.

Let's hope it never happens.

Peter_Mary

[elder_nomo]

As for whether the money comes from tithing, well.... I suppose if you go back far enough... it did originally come from tithing, even if the churches known business acumen? means that the money they invested has significantly grown.

Money is power, I think the leaders of the church have always been aware of this.

Good point, Mary.
Even if they insist that it's technically not tithing money because it's in different accounts in their accounting ledgers, it is still the church's money! Money that could otherwise be put towards "good works".

I suppose TBMs might say that it's not the members' money or the church's money... it's God's money. But that presents the ludicrous image of God, who created the heavens and the earth, reduced to buying shopping malls. :Crazy:

[flotsam]

Now let me see if i understand this.

Before, Rocky and the council were leary of the Church's mall plans. There were a lot of differences of opinion. And we know Rocky doesn't back down.

Then, after a "confidential" meeting, EVERY ONE of them comes out just full of rainbows and butterflies. "They've answered every one of our questions." "We've never seen anything like this in Utah!" "I'm really excited about this." "No no no, we're not going to tell you what happened."

Now just what do you think went on in that meeting? It sounds much different than the zoning meetings I've attended.

"Come on into the pendulum room here, Rocky. We reserve this well-appointed room for really important people ... Yes it IS a big pendulum isn't it? It has some very intricate designs on it if you look closer. That's it. Thaaaat's it. Look deeeeeply into the pendulum. You're eyes lids are getting verrrry heavy ..."

They probably programmed him to firebomb the ACLU offices while they were at it.

[nate]

Now let me see if i understand this.

Before, Rocky and the council were leary of the Church's mall plans. There were a lot of differences of opinion. And we know Rocky doesn't back down.

Then, after a "confidential" meeting, EVERY ONE of them comes out just full of rainbows and butterflies. "They've answered every one of our questions." "We've never seen anything like this in Utah!" "I'm really excited about this." "No no no, we're not going to tell you what happened."

Now just what do you think went on in that meeting? It sounds much different than the zoning meetings I've attended.

"Come on into the pendulum room here, Rocky. We reserve this well-appointed room for really important people ... Yes it IS a big pendulum isn't it? It has some very intricate designs on it if you look closer. That's it. Thaaaat's it. Look deeeeeply into the pendulum. You're eyes lids are getting verrrry heavy ..."


Either that, or he's getting some sort of return on the deal...most likely monetary.

[tjohnson]

Either that, or he's getting some sort of return on the deal...most likely monetary.

Yup... that was exactly my thought as well... some promises were made in that meeting that will never be written down... :duh

Whether they are to him personally, or to the City of SLC, it's abuse of the system... and it's illegal. :slap:

[why me]

The last sentence said it all. I think. Shopping malls offer inauthentic experiences for those who enter into the mall. The United States is a capitalist society and within this enterprise, the shopping mall has become the new temple of amusement and worship. It is the quest for the commodity and the power to buy that acitivates the individual senses away from their own human centered activity and into an activity of a 'pretty woman' mentality where power and identity are found in a shopping bag. The mall offers an inauthentic public space for people to gather in--a way and a means to distract from a more true sense of life worship and place life worship into a naricisstic bag of commodities. It is capitalism and the LDS church supports capitalism. It is also a good business deal and if successful...the LDS church will reap much praise and love from the community. Also...the lord blesses the lord's church will be a good come back sentence for all distractors. If you want to fight against this mall...don't shop there. But I think that I will find some of the Utah based postmo's heading for this mall when it is done and with shopping bag in hand, they will critique the mall and the waste of money spent on it...but with a shopping bag in hand... :p It's America, comrades, love it or leave it..... :)

[silverfox]

I am curious if the church will try to impose dress codes within the mall.

whyme - you are right on, don't shop there if you don't like it. I have no intention of ever shopping there.

My family and I like to go to Gateway (they have a huge live aquarium now, way cool) and we love Salt Lake City library and all the little shops there.

I haven't shopped in the downtown malls for years and I don't believe anything the church will do will make me start shopping there now.

What pisses me off is Rocky was TOTALLY pissed that the church was being secretive. Now that they've let him in on "everything" he is thrilled. But, Rocky, what about the community??? Don't you think the community should know what is to come? WHY THE BIG SECRETS? I don't get it. What is the church afraid of? You would think they would be thrilled to share their plans with the community.

Probably gonna put a big statue of Joe smack dab in the middle of it or something. heh heh :Puking

[miss taken]

That any church decides to shift focus from charitable/humanitarian service to money making, is as legal as any business deciding to shift focus on to more ethical or social issues. But defending the church on grounds that their actions are currently legal, is about as lame as defending OJ now on grounds that he was "legally" acquitted. It's amazing how the church can so often mimic the very lawyers that the NT's Jesus criticizes so harshly, guys who take sides no matter WHAT truth or right might be...

There are two problems with this that I can see. Correct me if I'm wrong.

It seems to me that an argument can be made that the church is operating under cover of tax exempt laws which favour it over other business institutions in the project of money making. In addition, its members are not privileged to see any financial statements, as are those participating in other companies as shareholders or interested parties. I don't see how that is fair. Whether you have the words "Jesus Christ" in your organization's name or not, if you're in business, I don't see why you shouldn't have to play by the rules of business.

Number two:

Question: From whom did "the church" originally get the capital and wealth it has used to build up its business enterprises? From the members, paying their tithing. Whether those tithes were paid fifty years ago or five days ago, they have still facilitated the construction of the church's portfolio of business holdings.

If I sell drugs, and then buy a casino with the profits, and then use the profits from that casino to buy a hotel, is it really straight up for me to say that "no tithing money was used for this hotel purchase"? It makes the church look very much like it is playing a shell game. Why not just admit it? Who cares? That would be a lot less lame than pretending tithing had nothing to do with the church's ability to BUY MALLS.

I bet the General Authorities could come out and say, "We each get a million a year and take four month vacations in Hawaii because GOD TOLD US TO", and you'd have RS women crying with gratitude at the pulpit next fast Sunday, bearing their testimonies about how grateful they are to have a prophet, in "these the latter days" and stuff, and how wonderful it is that they get to rest from their incredible pressures, etc.

Not that this would render the last point moot, but even if the church argued that it is now so wealthy that all tithing monies only add up to a minute fraction of all its revenues, and are used exclusively for buildings, and it's been using solely business-generated monies to purchase more businesses for the last forty years, this raises the question of why leave in place a ten per cent tithing requirement.

I paid ten per cent of my GROSS, which added up to like thirty or forty per cent of my income after taxes, expenses, etc., as a young husband trying desperately to keep my family afloat. And I did that because of Church President Heber J. Grant's fanatical pro-tithing comments, and Joseph Fielding Smith's comments that if you PAID on gross, the Lord would bless you in gross - comments that have been allowed to stand by the church. And my vivid memories of La Familia Q*****, in Santa Fe, Argentina, with NINE KIDS crammed into a two room little brick structure, with the dad working for a pittance as a bike mechanic, with the mother staying at home because Pres. Benson had said for mothers not to work outside the home, paying ten per cent of THAT...Those kids would chew (not making this up) on cow KNEES scrounged from the local butcher for lunch. Hunks of cartilage and bone. And I bet Monson's never gone to bed hungry a day in his life.

And...the church is spending a billion dollars buying a mall. Fine - be a cult run by George Orwell's pigs in Animal Farm. BUT...can't they just give the little guys a *little* break, if the church is that wealthy? Are they really still deluding themselves that they shouldn't lower the ten per cent requirement, because families like the Q**** 's need the blessings that only ten per cent can give them"? It's one thing to say that when you're esconced in a high falutin' condo in Utah, or you just swoop in for a regional conference every year or two down in Brazil or Bolivia...but to actually live and eat and sleep and breathe with people who live perpetually on the brink of death from starvation, and then make those comments - well, I don't even think the likes of Thomas Monson could do that. I hope not.

I really hope the one billion the church is spending on their new mall meets with the approval of the ManGod the church claims now, according to Hinckley, to "worship" - the one who spoke of clothing the naked, and feeding the hungry and poor.

People are dying all over South America and Africa from drought and contaminated water. A community well costs about $5000 US to dig and get operating. That's 200,000 wells the church could have funded, which would have saved countless infant and adult lives all over the world.

Does refurbishing a shopping mall for Salt Lake City, for $1,000,000,000, really make sense in light of the church's claims for itself?

No wonder they get accused of being nothing more than a business disguised as a church. They act just like they were.

T.

He makes some really salient points.

[helemon]

I am curious if the church will try to impose dress codes within the mall.

And a ban on swearing!

Probably gonna put a big statue of Joe smack dab in the middle of it or something. heh heh :Puking

Maybe another big Mormon visitor center in the basement telling only their side of the story?

[helemon]

It's one thing to say that when you're esconced in a high falutin' condo in Utah, or you just swoop in for a regional conference every year or two down in Brazil or Bolivia...but to actually live and eat and sleep and breathe with people who live perpetually on the brink of death from starvation, and then make those comments - well, I don't even think the likes of Thomas Monson could do that. I hope not.

Perhaps that is why Jesus and his followers had no place to rest their head. They were always wandering and living with the people. They knew the plight of the poor intimately because they were poor and lived among the poor.

People are dying all over South America and Africa from drought and contaminated water. A community well costs about $5000 US to dig and get operating. That's 200,000 wells the church could have funded, which would have saved countless infant and adult lives all over the world.

Does refurbishing a shopping mall for Salt Lake City, for $1,000,000,000, really make sense in light of the church's claims for itself?

No wonder they get accused of being nothing more than a business disguised as a church. They act just like they were.

T.[/COLOR]


Someone on the board said that the profits from the business investment could create more than the 1billion which the church could use for causes such as this. But since the church does not open its books we will never know if this is the case.

[bigeddy]

I can see it now. New questions to be asked in temple recommend interviews in Utah.

Do you support the only true mall system in existence?

Do you, or have you recently been affiliated with the Gateway Mall, Cottonwood Mall, South Town Mall, or any other apostate mall system?

Will you continue to shop only in downtown SLC as the profit wishes you to?

Yep, I can just hear it coming.

Ed

[helemon]

I can see it now. New questions to be asked in temple recommend interviews in Utah.

Do you support the only true mall system in existence?

Do you, or have you recently been affiliated with the Gateway Mall, Cottonwood Mall, South Town Mall, or any other apostate mall system?

Will you continue to shop only in downtown SLC as the profit wishes you to?

Yep, I can just hear it coming.

Ed

I guess if the Corp of the Prez ever gives up religion they could convert all the chapels and temples into shopping centers. :D But then we saw how well they did with ZCMI.