True Love

[silverfox]

A neighbor left the church a few years ago. Not long before I did. Her husband is very TBM. I don't know her but know of her through a mutual neighbor.

I noticed their home is up for sale. Our mutual neighbor told me that her husband wants to move to a more diverse city not far from here so that his wife has a wider social circle now that she is no longer a member.

I have to say I was SHOCKED at this. Because this guy is ultra TBM. So TBM he could be very offending.

I have to also say I am DELIGHTED with his reaction to his wife's apostacy.

This is true love, folks. This is what marriage is all about. Compromise / sacrafice. They are making it work. Mutual respect.

I wish more TBM spouses had this same attitude. It's refreshing to hear of a success story like this. There are so many marriages that are ended and families broken due to a spouses non belief.

[dogzilla]

I'm sorry, I couldn't read your post. I saw the title and thought of the minister in the Princess Bride.

"... because love... Twooo luv... shall fowwow you wherevah you go..."

[flotsam]

I have an online friend who had quite a bit of difficulty with his marriage during a questioning phase. He was having a hard time with Joe Smith and had let slip some of his doubts to his wife.

After that whenever they'd get into bed, or be progressing toward a romantic moment, she'd say, "Is Joseph Smith a prophet?" Of course, he'd be honest with her and say that he didn't know.

No testimony, no sex, is essentially what it came down to.

Probably the saddest story I've ever heard.

But you're right Silverfox. Your story is one of the nicest I've ever heard. Now if we could get THAT baby into the Ensign, we'd be getting somewhere.

[noodle]

No testimony, no sex, is essentially what it came down to.



Oh GAWD...so Jo is still hopping into bed with folks, eh?

[Born Free]

I have an online friend who had quite a bit of difficulty with his marriage during a questioning phase. He was having a hard time with Joe Smith and had let slip some of his doubts to his wife.

After that whenever they'd get into bed, or be progressing toward a romantic moment, she'd say, "Is Joseph Smith a prophet?" Of course, he'd be honest with her and say that he didn't know.

No testimony, no sex, is essentially what it came down to.

Probably the saddest story I've ever heard.

But you're right Silverfox. Your story is one of the nicest I've ever heard. Now if we could get THAT baby into the Ensign, we'd be getting somewhere.

Clearly a relationship with a stunning future ahead of it!

Perform and you get the prize! One does not have to be a rocket scientist to see the possibility that if he compromised himself on something so deep to get laid, it would likely only be when, not if, he started to suffer impotence as a passive-aggressive expression of his anger and self-loathing.

Ah, don't you love 'true-love'?

Daryl

[why me]

I think that true love works both ways. At times I felt some of the postmo's in this forum would give their TBM spouses a rough time for believing in the church. We all must question the pressure we would put on our TBM spouses. If your spouse is or was TBM, how would you treat her or him? Would it still be true love or would you nag the poor soul to death about the 'crazy' belief system that they may be carrying around? Would you pull out this website and that website at dinner time and during the quiet moments? Would you pressure the spouse to conform to the new you or would it be compromise? Now...be honest... :)

[taruleo]

That's a good point. It goes both ways. Sometimes I think it has more to do with personality than which "side" you are on. There are some people that are always going to be zealots no matter what the cause.

[silverfox]

I think that true love works both ways. At times I felt some of the postmo's in this forum would give their TBM spouses a rough time for believing in the church. We all must question the pressure we would put on our TBM spouses. If your spouse is or was TBM, how would you treat her or him? Would it still be true love or would you nag the poor soul to death about the 'crazy' belief system that they may be carrying around? Would you pull out this website and that website at dinner time and during the quiet moments? Would you pressure the spouse to conform to the new you or would it be compromise? Now...be honest... :)

Absolutely correct, whyme.

When my belief system first broke down hubby was TBM in his beliefs. He watched me go through the turmoil, the emotions, the depression when everything came to light. He was totally confused (so was I). He being BIC it all came natural to him. It was no big deal that there were indescrepancies.

In my positiion I needed him, as a partner to listen to me and to try to understand why I felt the way I did. It was difficult for him at first. His foundation was being shaken and it was unacceptable. That's when I had to give an ultimatum. But it was based on love, trust, respect not anything church oriented. I needed to know he would love and accept me with or without the church in my life. If he could not and if would be a source of great contention then I was willing to disolve the relationship.

There was no way I could "go back". Not after what I had learned. I needed to know that he was okay with that. I was not going to spend day after day worried about him leaving because of it.

He didn't agree with me then and he still doesn't on some issues. We had some rough moments when it came to the kids and baptisms, etc but we COMPROMISED. Compromise, I think is key to a successful marriage when there is conflict.

Hubby is no longer TBM in his beliefs. But he still feels strongly that the gospel is true. He cannot completely let go. And that is okay. We talk openly about what would happen if he decided to go back to church and become very active. We have worked out some compromises should this ever happen.

Again, I realize I am very lucky. As a TBM I know how I would have reacted if HE were the one to fall away. I would like to think that I would have had enough respect to listen and try to understand. But I don't know.

I do believe post mos have an advantage over TBM spouses in that sense. We know where they are coming from, we have been them, and have once owned that mentality.

I find it very sad that so many marriages have ended due to an inactive spouse. I also find it very very sad that so many members are sitting in church week after week, pretending to be something they are not just to keep their spouse content. They are not allowed to express their true feelings. And in that sense I think neither spouse really gets to know each other.

I love that I can talk to hubby about issues that bug me. And if he doesn't agree it doesn't turn into a competition of who is right or who is wrong. It's more "yeah, I can see why you would feel that way. I am not sure I feel the same but I understand".

I will say it again...I know I am lucky. :)

[taruleo]

I love that I can talk to hubby about issues that bug me. And if he doesn't agree it doesn't turn into a competition of who is right or who is wrong. It's more "yeah, I can see why you would feel that way. I am not sure I feel the same but I understand".

I will say it again...I know I am lucky. :)[/QUOTE]

You certainly are lucky, there are so many people that never can release themselves from the trap of having the only truth.

In my experience, if you can get people to talk in a real way about their feelings and beliefs even the TBMs that seem to believe similar things can vary widely.

[dancinfree]

I love that I can talk to hubby about issues that bug me. And if he doesn't agree it doesn't turn into a competition of who is right or who is wrong. It's more "yeah, I can see why you would feel that way. I am not sure I feel the same but I understand".

I will say it again...I know I am lucky. :)

One of the most important classes that I took from Bigeddy was the class on stages of relationships. The stages of relationships are: Initiating, experimenting, intensifying, integrating/bonding, differentiating/circumscribing, stagnation, avoidance, termination. I'm sure Bigeddy can do these stages more justice but this is my take on it for me. Bigeddy, you don't know how much you've changed my life dear man.

After couples go through integrating and basically come together with all that is the same in their relationship, (which can be such a high...that they are truly "made" for one another) differentiating begins and that's where conflict can arise. Seeing each other's differences, whether it's religious, morally, or where the toothpaste is squeezed, can be looked upon as such a negative that it starts to lead down the path and sometimes the relationship becomes stagnent, avoided or terminated. This is the case, especially if one or the other sees conflict as BAD or means the relationship isin't "meant to be".

I was taught by example growing up that conflict is bad and means that the relationship is flawed..so smooth out the ripples in whatever way possible...avoid...passive/aggressive behavior, whatever it takes but smooth it over so problems don't arise. Basically, become a doormat or "get back" some other way if resentment is there..but by all means, don't CONFRONT! If I recognize confict then adjust myself to conform, so I will be "better than" the other person..even more...gasp..."Christlike".

Wow!! What a belief system..plus, I saw that it worked! No arguments....no loud voices...no uncomfortable feelings...must mean...Great relationship...right? NO FREAKIN WAY!! Not anymore, my friends. I have found that I have a right for my differing opinions..they are valid and deserve to be expressed..my differences are what make me...ME. Sure, life is not quite as simple or clean-cut..the water is a little more messy...but I am being authentic ME and that is more valuable then any misguided fantasy of the perfect relationship. I also realize that I use compromise to stay in relationships that still work for me and until they no longer work or I'm willing to take off any of the masks that I have used in the past to keep in relationships, the tool of compromise will continue to be used by me, as my choice. I see compromise as a mask, in a way. In some relationships, the repercussions of showing my complete face would not be worth the freedom of doing so. Balance for me, is the key. Also, boundary and self protection have been powerful concepts that are very empowering for me recently.

Many people will say that marriages fail due to lack of communication but I have found that marriages fail due to lack of honesty with the self. When individuals get honest with themselves, then come hell or high water, relationships either continue to evolve or dissolve but at least it's based on honesty and both people can live in authenticity and not behind some fake mask that they wear...(would be nice if that didn't cause hurt or pain to those we love but most often then not, it does..dammit!) That being said, I believe that only when I'm ready to expose myself to all the results of doing so, does that relationship deserve full exposure. I believe that it's important in some circumstances to find the balance of when and what kind of mask to wear and with whom..but knowing that for myself, looking at myself, there are no masks...just me. Being true to myself has brought me much peace.

I hope I'm making sense....sometimes I get on a roll and don't know when to stop....it's that addiction thing...hehehehe. Thanks for allowing me to express. This is so great...I love computer technology!!

:D :D

[Born Free]

'Significant Other' and I watched Kinsey on DVD last night.

We both loved it!

In case it was released here under a different title to in the US (which sometimes happens), I am speaking of the story of the Kinseys and their poineering work with Liam Neesan playing Professor Kinsey.

When I saw the family he came from, and the conservative reaction to his work, particularly when the research on women was released, I could not help wonder what the response was in Utard. They must have gone nuts! As I wrote this, I wondered if they went so far as to ban it and if it ever made it into the library at BYU.

For anyone who has not seen this movie, and has had a lot on interest in the threads related to sexuality here, you may find viewing this movie time well spent.

Daryl

[noodle]

'Significant Other' and I watched Kinsey on DVD last night.

We both loved it!

In case it was released here under a different title to in the US (which sometimes happens), I am speaking of the story of the Kinseys and their poineering work with Liam Neesan playing Professor Kinsey.



Daryl
Daryl, it was released here under the same name, and I believe that it won several awards, and was nominated for more. I haven't seen it. I'm sure that it played in Salt Lake City, but don't know about the smaller communities. My daughter, who is a film major in college, referred me to this data base for looking up movies. You can check out Kinsey here: http://imdb.com/title/tt0362269/

[bigeddy]

Hey Dancinfree,

You did it all just perfect. I am so glad you were in my classes and that I had the chance to watch your growth.

I learned yesterday (just got back from several days of vacation--I'm swamped with things to catch up on) that a very good friend (the only TBM friend I have--all the rest dropped me like a hot cup of coffee) is dieing of cancer. Seems she has only about 6 months to live. I also learned that her son is facing this thread's exact issue. This man (a professor of Far Eastern Studies at a major university in the southern US) is truly a TBM type guy and now his wife is having lots of doubts. I cannot think of anything that would rock this wonderful man more than this. His wife was a convert to moism in Florida and it seems she is now reverting back to her roots. This will be terrible for him to endure. What is wonderful is that he told his mother (my friend who is dieing) that he has only one option--to love and support her. I was so moved to hear this.

I am also very curious about the future for them. I believe that post moism is an evolved place in comparison to any polarized church based paradigm. If this man responds with true love he will be led to grow. (Kind of the way Silverfox describes what has happened with her hubby). What will that growing process do to him. It will be fascinating to watch. The whole extended family of this friend of mine is based around moism. To now have a respected member turning away will have a profound impact on all of them. Wow, what a thing to watch. I do not find it gratifying because "Oh, now someone may see the light--I know that I was right." I find it awesome in a truly human way: Awesome to watch this growth process happening, Awesome to contemplate the pain these wonderful people will be in because of growth (it always hurts), Awesome to witness the human drama of relationships strained, love tested. WOW.

Ed