the effects of moism on men [Archive]

bigeddy

5th June 2005, 07:19 PM

Not being a man, could you give slightly more detail on "a doctrinal system that fights against men truly being able to understand their own sexuality"? I am thinking of anything that is specifically pointed toward men. Maybe something that they teach in priesthood or to the young men. I know that there are such things for women but wonder about the men.

taruleo,

I have come to believe that sexuality is a core issue in our humanity. It is not just a nicety or a way to propagate. Understanding it and using it appropriately is essential IMO to living fully and well. When it is misunderstood a man cannot understand the feelings associated with it and misuses the masculine energy that otherwise can be used to bless the lives of those around us. To use it properly would mean
1. Understanding the feelings associated with arousal and eroticism. I believe that what I have felt throughout my life is the need to be in balance; to bond with feminine energy in a way designed to be a blessing. Growing up in the church I was taught that these feelings were of the devil and were meant to be ignored or controlled. The more of them a male feels the more shame is heaped on him because he then interprets the feelings to mean that he is "tempted" and if he does not "succesfully" resist this temptation he will feel awful shame.
2. Once understood the boy/man needs guidance to know what the balance means and the ways to acheive it that will truly bless lives. In therapy I have dealt with many boys growing through the hormonal stages and needing to understand about balance. When all around us teaches that these feelings mean he wants sex he responds by wanting sex. If we give the guidance needed the boy can know how to seek balance by associating with females in open, honest ways. As a boy I did not receive any of this type guidance. All I was taught was that it was a shameful thing to feel and even more shameful to act on. Acting on it is almost automatic with boys. Wet dreams, masturbation the incredible fascination with anything feminine; these things are well known to most males. That is why there are so many jokes about boys and lingerie catalogs. Since acting on it is so common and automatic (virtually) the shame is inevitable. When the shame sets in boys have to hide their true self even from themself. This makes the open and honest bonding that leads to balance even more difficult; and the downward spiral begins.
3. When a boy/man does act on his feelings he needs further guidance to understand what happened and why. He needs an open, loving, accepting atmosphere in which to tell his story and be guided by wise men. Since there are no wise men in moland this becomes impossible and so the boy has to hide all his experience and cannot learn from it. If he does talk about it, it will often be to a bishop who is most often another pulpit idiot who lacks any wisdom and just counsels him to stay away from anything that may "tempt" him to get involved in "wickedness" again. This further leads to shame of the feelings and hiding from self because there is no way to stay away from feminine energy. AND, the more he stays away the more out of balance he is; more downward spiral. Feminine energy begins to be seen as the enemy, males fear it and automatically want to dominate it. The church gives him plenty of opportunity to dominate feminine energy. When dominating the feminine energy he cannot bond with it in a way that give balance and down and down it goes. (Just look at the way GA's dominate the feminine around them and how lacking in wisdom they really are.)
4. With proper guidance a man can learn that balance is acheived by beholding the divine feminine in a way that is equal, respectful and worshipful. When that is done there is no desire to dominate the feminine because he will know that that will cheat him of the balance he needs.
When the males around him (priesthood quorums) just continue the indoctrination, shame, confusion and lack of wisdom there is no way out of the downward spiral. Men wander around out of balance, dominating (or attempting to dominate) anything that scares them and without the balance of the divine feminine they rape--rape women, rape the environment, rape other people's savings, rape other people's dignity, etc. etc. etc.

All of these confusions are begun and fostered by men who never did cope with their own sexual energy in ways that bless. As I have worked with men who have been involved with sexual crimes or with porno addictions I have met many, many who have sought help from the pulpit idiots and got none. I have worked with women who have sought help to deal with thier husbands' sexual problems. When they went to the pulpit idiots they encountered the same lack of wisdom and the problems just get worse and worse. I often wonder what percentage of depression is actually people wandering around out of balance.

Hope this give you what you wanted.

Ed.

free thinker

6th June 2005, 12:15 AM

Hello! I am fairly new to the posting grounds and so apologize if this has already been covered

Welcome to post-mo!!

Is your avatar a cumom or a curelom? :D

Free Thinker

why me

6th June 2005, 04:02 AM

taruleo,

I have come to believe that sexuality is a core issue in our humanity. It is not just a nicety or a way to propagate. Understanding it and using it appropriately is essential IMO to living fully and well. When it is misunderstood a man cannot understand the feelings associated with it and misuses the masculine energy that otherwise can be used to bless the lives of those around us. To use it properly would mean
1. Understanding the feelings associated with arousal and eroticism. I believe that what I have felt throughout my life is the need to be in balance; to bond with feminine energy in a way designed to be a blessing. Growing up in the church I was taught that these feelings were of the devil and were meant to be ignored or controlled. The more of them a male feels the more shame is heaped on him because he then interprets the feelings to mean that he is "tempted" and if he does not "succesfully" resist this temptation he will feel awful shame.
2. Once understood the boy/man needs guidance to know what the balance means and the ways to acheive it that will truly bless lives. In therapy I have dealt with many boys growing through the hormonal stages and needing to understand about balance. When all around us teaches that these feelings mean he wants sex he responds by wanting sex. If we give the guidance needed the boy can know how to seek balance by associating with females in open, honest ways. As a boy I did not receive any of this type guidance. All I was taught was that it was a shameful thing to feel and even more shameful to act on. Acting on it is almost automatic with boys. Wet dreams, masturbation the incredible fascination with anything feminine; these things are well known to most males. That is why there are so many jokes about boys and lingerie catalogs. Since acting on it is so common and automatic (virtually) the shame is inevitable. When the shame sets in boys have to hide their true self even from themself. This makes the open and honest bonding that leads to balance even more difficult; and the downward spiral begins.
3. When a boy/man does act on his feelings he needs further guidance to understand what happened and why. He needs an open, loving, accepting atmosphere in which to tell his story and be guided by wise men. Since there are no wise men in moland this becomes impossible and so the boy has to hide all his experience and cannot learn from it. If he does talk about it, it will often be to a bishop who is most often another pulpit idiot who lacks any wisdom and just counsels him to stay away from anything that may "tempt" him to get involved in "wickedness" again. This further leads to shame of the feelings and hiding from self because there is no way to stay away from feminine energy. AND, the more he stays away the more out of balance he is; more downward spiral. Feminine energy begins to be seen as the enemy, males fear it and automatically want to dominate it. The church gives him plenty of opportunity to dominate feminine energy. When dominating the feminine energy he cannot bond with it in a way that give balance and down and down it goes. (Just look at the way GA's dominate the feminine around them and how lacking in wisdom they really are.)
4. With proper guidance a man can learn that balance is acheived by beholding the divine feminine in a way that is equal, respectful and worshipful. When that is done there is no desire to dominate the feminine because he will know that that will cheat him of the balance he needs.
When the males around him (priesthood quorums) just continue the indoctrination, shame, confusion and lack of wisdom there is no way out of the downward spiral. Men wander around out of balance, dominating (or attempting to dominate) anything that scares them and without the balance of the divine feminine they rape--rape women, rape the environment, rape other people's savings, rape other people's dignity, etc. etc. etc.

All of these confusions are begun and fostered by men who never did cope with their own sexual energy in ways that bless. As I have worked with men who have been involved with sexual crimes or with porno addictions I have met many, many who have sought help from the pulpit idiots and got none. I have worked with women who have sought help to deal with thier husbands' sexual problems. When they went to the pulpit idiots they encountered the same lack of wisdom and the problems just get worse and worse. I often wonder what percentage of depression is actually people wandering around out of balance.

Hope this give you what you wanted.

Ed.

You bring up a good point toward the end of your post. I think that in difficult matters one must be careful in approaching the bishop or stake president. In most cases, they are not professionals and here lies the danger. For complex issues one must seek good and sound professional help and not rely on priesthood holders who have no experience in human complexities which are outside their field of expertise. It can be very damaging to receive advice from a non-professional. Sometimes we need to trust in intellect and not in god or if we do trust in god, we do so through the intellect... :)

miss taken

6th June 2005, 06:01 AM

taruleo,

I have come to believe that sexuality is a core issue in our humanity. It is not just a nicety or a way to propagate. Understanding it and using it appropriately is essential IMO to living fully and well. When it is misunderstood a man cannot understand the feelings associated with it and misuses the masculine energy that otherwise can be used to bless the lives of those around us. To use it properly would mean
1. Understanding the feelings associated with arousal and eroticism. I believe that what I have felt throughout my life is the need to be in balance; to bond with feminine energy in a way designed to be a blessing. Growing up in the church I was taught that these feelings were of the devil and were meant to be ignored or controlled. The more of them a male feels the more shame is heaped on him because he then interprets the feelings to mean that he is "tempted" and if he does not "succesfully" resist this temptation he will feel awful shame.
2. Once understood the boy/man needs guidance to know what the balance means and the ways to acheive it that will truly bless lives. In therapy I have dealt with many boys growing through the hormonal stages and needing to understand about balance. When all around us teaches that these feelings mean he wants sex he responds by wanting sex. If we give the guidance needed the boy can know how to seek balance by associating with females in open, honest ways. As a boy I did not receive any of this type guidance. All I was taught was that it was a shameful thing to feel and even more shameful to act on. Acting on it is almost automatic with boys. Wet dreams, masturbation the incredible fascination with anything feminine; these things are well known to most males. That is why there are so many jokes about boys and lingerie catalogs. Since acting on it is so common and automatic (virtually) the shame is inevitable. When the shame sets in boys have to hide their true self even from themself. This makes the open and honest bonding that leads to balance even more difficult; and the downward spiral begins.
3. When a boy/man does act on his feelings he needs further guidance to understand what happened and why. He needs an open, loving, accepting atmosphere in which to tell his story and be guided by wise men. Since there are no wise men in moland this becomes impossible and so the boy has to hide all his experience and cannot learn from it. If he does talk about it, it will often be to a bishop who is most often another pulpit idiot who lacks any wisdom and just counsels him to stay away from anything that may "tempt" him to get involved in "wickedness" again. This further leads to shame of the feelings and hiding from self because there is no way to stay away from feminine energy. AND, the more he stays away the more out of balance he is; more downward spiral. Feminine energy begins to be seen as the enemy, males fear it and automatically want to dominate it. The church gives him plenty of opportunity to dominate feminine energy. When dominating the feminine energy he cannot bond with it in a way that give balance and down and down it goes. (Just look at the way GA's dominate the feminine around them and how lacking in wisdom they really are.)
4. With proper guidance a man can learn that balance is acheived by beholding the divine feminine in a way that is equal, respectful and worshipful. When that is done there is no desire to dominate the feminine because he will know that that will cheat him of the balance he needs.
When the males around him (priesthood quorums) just continue the indoctrination, shame, confusion and lack of wisdom there is no way out of the downward spiral. Men wander around out of balance, dominating (or attempting to dominate) anything that scares them and without the balance of the divine feminine they rape--rape women, rape the environment, rape other people's savings, rape other people's dignity, etc. etc. etc.

All of these confusions are begun and fostered by men who never did cope with their own sexual energy in ways that bless. As I have worked with men who have been involved with sexual crimes or with porno addictions I have met many, many who have sought help from the pulpit idiots and got none. I have worked with women who have sought help to deal with thier husbands' sexual problems. When they went to the pulpit idiots they encountered the same lack of wisdom and the problems just get worse and worse. I often wonder what percentage of depression is actually people wandering around out of balance.

Hope this give you what you wanted.

Ed.

Ed, I have never really understood where you stand on these issues.

To want sex is surely a good thing, to want intimacy and love to go with it, is good too.

Surely we all want sex. Natures way of ensuring that the species propagates itself.

From what I got from the church on sex, and taught on a mission. - Sex is good, very good, even sacred (I think I felt that way about the conception of my son - it was so wonderful), it can be fun, funny, intense, intimate, playful, stress busting.

But in the church they would say, we don't want you to have sex before you get married, and we know this is going to be really hard, because we all want sex, so the best way to cope with it is to avoid it.

What I didn't like about the church is they put sex up with murder in terms of seriousness, and they seem to have the same attitude (culturally based maybe) that Islam has to women. ie they are a temptation, and need to be covered.

(Personally I love mens eyes, face and smile, so for me, men should maybe wear sunglasses to stop me being tempted!!! However a naked male would definitely NOT turn me on, I would be more likely to laugh! )

Both my nannies concieved out of wedlock. They both loved the guys but didn't go on to marry them. Did they really commit a grevious sin. I don't think so. It made their life difficult, and challenging (single parents back in the 20's were not too kindly looked upon and their was no social support for them by the gov), but it ultimately proved to be their biggest blessing. My father was totally devoted to his mother, and was her greatest friend and support.

Nothings black and white.

How would you Ed suggest that men cope with their sexuality?

The church says its good but only in marriage...
What would you say??? Be good, and if you can't be good be careful!!!!!!!!! :)

Mary

taruleo

6th June 2005, 06:09 AM

Hello! I am fairly new to the posting grounds and so apologize if this has already been covered

Welcome to post-mo!!

Is your avatar a cumom or a curelom? :D

Free Thinker

Both I think! :)

taruleo

6th June 2005, 07:17 AM

taruleo,

When all around us teaches that these feelings mean he wants sex he responds by wanting sex. If we give the guidance needed the boy can know how to seek balance by associating with females in open, honest ways.
Ed.

Thanks bigeddy! What are the other things that these feelings might mean and what are the open and honest ways that you think would bring balance?

Born Free

6th June 2005, 07:33 AM

I think Eds remarks above are excellent, and have to say that I believe that the process he describes gets Mo men standing on a very shakey and unhealthy platform.

The Mo package sends a bizarre cocktail of messages:

You must be worthy (Mo's bizarre definition) to be leaders to women and other men (the guilt and shame package Ed identified)

If you're red blooded, that will place you at permanent war with yourself.

That will make you a stranger to yourself and to other men, which will leave you very lonely , inherently unhealthy and excessively reliant upon women for emotional functioning.

That will create a deep sense of confusion (you are following what should make you feel fine, but you feel shitty), which in turn will generate a sense of bitterness and entitlement.

That sense of entitlement will get projected onto different people in different ways, depending upon your personality and problem issues.

Now all that may sound over the top. From women's perspective without worldly power, that may sound ridiculous and a figment of the imagination.

Let me use an example that crossed my path recently. I had dealings with a man whose daughter had been chronically bullied at high school by Africaans (South Africans of Dutch extraction) who have relocated to Australia. The bullying was so intense that the daughter nearly certainly has PTSD now. These people seemed to have all the power!

But have you ever dealt with these people? Most are the most fear-based, loveless, hard, shutdown, pathetic excuse for humanity you could hope to avoid. Yes, they may have had power and abused and killed the blacks there, but it has left scars in them so deep that I expect the blacks will heal and move on before they do.

So, IMO, the Mo construct makes victims of men and women, each in their own and different ways.

Daryl

miss taken

6th June 2005, 08:51 AM

I agree that our sexuality is a wonderful and integral part of who we all are. I really do agree with that.

Daryl what rules then would you suggest should govern the expression of sexual feeling?

Sex just brings with it so much baggage. First I would rule out dishonesty. The blokes that said...well I just want to have sex with you but no commitment, would get my respect quicker than the blokes who said... I love you, I love you, I love you....now go to bed with me....

What about STD's, what about unwanted children. My SIL is living testament to someone on the pill who got pregnant anyway. No contraception is 100%..

I'm not trying to be argumentative. I hope you don't feel that, but I would like to know what you and Ed would think about how to proceed healthily around the question of male (and female) sexuality.

Mary

bigeddy

6th June 2005, 10:13 AM

Sex just brings with it so much baggage. First I would rule out dishonesty. The blokes that said...well I just want to have sex with you but no commitment, would get my respect quicker than the blokes who said... I love you, I love you, I love you....now go to bed with me....

I'm not trying to be argumentative. I hope you don't feel that, but I would like to know what you and Ed would think about how to proceed healthily around the question of male (and female) sexuality.

Mary

I think that the baggage is inherant in the fact that we are dealing with one of the core issues of our humanity. It is connected with all the other core issues; beauty, power, compassion, grace. So when it is misunderstood all the core issues are similarly messed up.

Honesty is a key. That becomes one of the biggest problems. Being TBM made me hide my humanity from myself so how could I be honest? Not only with others but with myself?

So, to proceed healthily would mean that we have to fully understand what we are feeling. Someone (Mary, it think) made a statement having to do with our wanting sex is normal. I think casting it in that way creates a problem. It is not sex that we want!!!!! It is balance. Sex can be, and at the pinnacle of balance it is what we want, but, stating it in this reductionistic way places an incorrect notion in the minds of kids. If they grow up knowing that it is balance they are seeking not sex, then the decisions about balance, including when and with whom to include sex, will be much wiser made.

As an example, what if we taught all kids that when they are hungry they are feeling a need for a gift from mom. That gift usually came in the form of food, but that food was just a by-product, it had nothing to do with what was really lacking. Then, when a kid was hungry they would look to mom for the gift. They would not be able to meet their need in other ways because they had no expectation or understanding that it was not the "gift" they needed but just food. They would feel hungry and head for wherever mom was. They would not know that they could eat whatever they wanted or found and could be sated. They would struggle in lots of ways with tons of issues about food because the basic understanding is denied them. I find it the same way when we reduce our feelings for connectedness to sex.

Ancient cultures have various ways of teaching the notion that at creation we were split; divided into just half a self, a male half and a female half--that all of creation, the earth even, was in that split condition and eternally seeking its other half. If kids understood this, that we are seeking balance to be whole and we addressed all issues of connectedness from this standpoint (including sex) then much crap could be avoided.

Once we understand it we can then begin to seek balance. Boys would know that to find balance one has to first respect themself and their masculine energy and then have equal respect for the feminine energy--since it is my other half. Honesty would be an indispensable part of the process from the very beginning.

To seek the balance healthily would be to find the connectedness at each stage. I believe that if kids were taught to be able to truly connect, they would delay sexual fulfillment naturally.
I watch the kids I have taught over the years and see marvelous indications of this. One young woman (15 yrs. old) telling me about having sex with a boy she cared about and then worrying about pregnancy. I asked her if they talked about it before they did it. She was highly embarassed and stated something to the effect that "we can't talk about sex!" I said "you can do it but not talk about it?" "Of course." was her reply. They had not learned to connect with each other as people. They had learned to connect with each others' body parts.

I find that when kids are truly connecting in the appropriate ways for each stage, this does not happen. So, they would first practice being close, physically--such as standing,sitting by each other, holding hands, etc. Then practice looking in each other's eyes in open acceptance of themselves and each other. These things are scary and would occupy all their energy and fascination while being practiced. There is no need to jump to soul-less fondling of bodies because they are connecting to souls and this is much more pleasing.

Then they can practice talking about truly intimate issues. Talk about desires, feelings, hopes, dreams. Sharing the self/soul through words. This is again scary and occupies needed energy and fascination.

Through all this kids need to be able to talk to wise adults about what they are experiencing. So, a boy comes back and talks about his fascination with looking in her eyes and that he got an erection when he was doing it. He wants to know what to do next. I ask if he wants to have sex. He says no, he is not really ready but can feel the deep attraction. So he keeps practicing the many other ways to keep in balance. Even though he feels the horniness (erection is sort of an indication :D ) he is satisfied with the connectedness because it is happening.

Certainly in this system kids will tend to have sex earlier than later. But so what? They come back and discuss it. No harm done, they are learning and will be much better able to relate in fullfilled marriages. (Care about pregnancies and disease will be needed-of course. One could worry about the fact that no contraceptive approach is 100% certain except abstinence. However, they will face that exact problem when they are married anyway, won't they? If one of those tragedies happen they will need to deal with it in the same way as if a pregnancy occured in the marriage when they are not ready for it.)

Well, this is getting long--I apologize. I hope this helps answer the question you asked about dealing with it healthily. In short--if we begin with a proper understanding of what sexuality is about the rest is actually quite simple.

Ed

miss taken

6th June 2005, 10:46 AM

Thanks Ed, I like 99% of what you say. Brilliant stuff, and to be born in mind with my son I think. I still hope though that he will wait till he is really in love before having sex. My parents were not mormon but they were virgins when they married and I think the marriage survived in part because of that factor. I don't buy into the stuff that says you have a better marriage if you have lots of experience. I just don't buy it.

Thanks
Mary

pokatator

6th June 2005, 11:02 AM

Welcome Taruleo.... Hey I tried to make a post earlier today and my computer crashed in the middle of it, so I guess it wasn't to be. Taruleo keep coming back, this is a comfortable place.......Randy

aether

6th June 2005, 11:15 AM

It is not sex that we want!!!!! It is balance.

Ed, I still don't see where you're coming from here. Maybe because I simply don't have any real-life evidence of it. I feel like a moderately balanced person.. and I can honestly say that I want sex. How do you explain that (other than saying that I'm not as balanced as I think I am)? I feel like I'm past the hormonal need for sex.. and I do find I love being intimate without being sexual.. but I also just love the act itself. I know you've tried to explain this to me but for some reason I still can't get your reasoning.

miss taken

6th June 2005, 11:44 AM

Welcome Taruleo

I am going to shift directions an they way this thread is going, not that I have answers or disagree or agree with the way it went from the original post. In fact I may just be adding more questions more than answers.

When I read the original post, I didn't think of any answers only the way I was dealt with in the church. When I was leaving the church I had problems with doctrine and mainly the temple rites. Leading up to that was years of an unhappy marriage. I felt pressure to please my wife in every respect, even to the point of pressure to go to the temple to make things all right. I believe that on the outward appearence men have the power in the church, the preisthood, the authority, etc. But in a more subtle ways the women in the church have most of the power. At least it seems to me that they hold the church together, there are a lot more women attending than men and what do they want, children, an active husband, a temple marriage, etc.

My marriage had failed years before we went to the temple, but I went because I was trying to save it for the kids, for us. It was suppose to be a magic cure. Getting active and getting ready to go to the temple was all a process of pleasing her and life got a little easier as long as I was going along with it. But as I have stated in other posts, the temple was the beginning of the end for me.

After I went to the temple I had questions, and I attended church for 2 years after that. I asked questions, was chastized, lied about, bodily removed from meetings, pulled aside and asked to stop and to just obey, etc. This was all in an effort to conform with the church and my wife.

I wanted to go to a professional, say ke bigeddy, to get some help. She wouldn't go, but she would go the Bish every week and cry on his shoulder. Finally, they called me in, and all I got was how wrong I was and how sinful I was....on and on. But my point is, it always came back to how unahppy she is and how it is all my fault. I was told I was the preisthood holder, I was the man of the family and if she was unhappy it was something I was doing or not doing. My question always was, "I am responsible for her happiness?" The answer always was, "Yes!" I asked, "100%?" their answer, "Yes, 100%". Beleive me there was a lot of argument from me but that was theie main focus.

At this time our ward boundaries were being divided up

What you went through sounds really terrible.

It's conditional love. I will love you and accept you if.... and if..... and if.....

Surely that isn't what love is all about. My hubby is not perfect and neither of us are easy to live with. But I accept him as he is, and he accepts me, and then we compromise, sometimes a little, sometimes a lot, but never at the expense of who we are as people.

My mum and dad nearly divorced because of the church, and I noticed that when my mum got really active, she stopped accepting dad as he was. He had to stop going to the pub (he is NOT and never was a heavy drinker), he was no longer acceptable to her, she was sold on the dream... It was awful. All I remember about that time, is both of them arguing and arguing, because mum was no longer content with him, she wanted him to change... It was very difficult for us as kids to watch, and I was glad when they both went inactive.

It was always a bit of a puzzle to me, that something that should increase love and acceptance, and tolerance, actually seemed to decrease it...

Mary

pokatator

6th June 2005, 11:45 AM

Reading through many of the posts I have seen multiple references to the effects of the mormon church on women....... but what of the men as victims of a system that teaches them to be victimizers(is that a word :confused: ?)......There are gender roles for the men as well as the women.Welcome Taruleo

I am going to shift directions on they way this thread is going, not that I have answers or disagree or agree with the way it went from the original post. In fact I may just be adding more questions more than answers.

When I read the original post, I didn't think of any answers only the way I was dealt with in the church. When I was leaving the church I had problems with doctrine and mainly the temple rites. Leading up to that was years of an unhappy marriage. I felt pressure to please my wife in every respect, even to the point of pressure to go to the temple to make things all right. I believe that on the outward appearence men have the power in the church, the preisthood, the authority, etc. But in a more subtle way the women in the church have most of the power. At least it seems to me that they hold the church together, there are a lot more women attending than men and what do they want, children, an active husband, a temple marriage, etc.

My marriage had failed years before we went to the temple, but I went because I was trying to save the marriage for the kids, for us. It was suppose to be a magic cure. Getting active and getting ready to go to the temple was all a process of pleasing her and life got a little easier as long as I was going along with it. But as I have stated in other posts, the temple was the beginning of the end for me.

After I went to the temple I had questions, and I attended church for 2 years after that. I asked questions, was chastized, lied about, bodily removed from meetings, pulled aside and asked to stop and to just obey, etc. This was all in an effort to conform with the church and my wife.

I wanted to go to a professional, say like bigeddy, to get some help. She wouldn't go, but she would go the to Bish every week and cry on his shoulder. Finally, they called me in, and all I got was how wrong I was and how sinful I was....on and on. But my point is, it always came back to how unhappy she is and how it is all my fault. I was told I was the preisthood holder, I was the man of the family and if she was unhappy it was something I was doing or not doing. My question always was, "I am responsible for her happiness?" The answer always was, "Yes!" I asked, "100%?" Their answer, "Yes, 100%". "Not even 95-5%?" No way. Believe me there was a lot of argument from me but that was their main focus.

At this time our ward boundaries were being divided up so we had two Bish's (oh, double the pleasure, double the fun). She got me cornered there too, and the message was really exactly the same, really almost word for word. She tried to get me to the Stake Pres too, but he was too busy. But he did catch me at church and pulled me aside and gave me some "advice", it was essentially the same message as the two Bishes with a little different wording.

So did they all talk together to get the same story line or is this standard operating procedure? Maybe both? Never in all the "interviews" I mean interrogations was the woman called into question about anything, not in the slightest degree, even when somethings were clearly obvious to everyone else outside of the church.

I made an ultimatum to her that she go against the Bishes and we go to a professional for help or I was gone. She finally agreed but with the following conditions, the counseler had to be mormon and a man. I finally agreed as long as he was truly professional. After contacting several, she agreed on a guy. We went to the first session together, after that the sessions were me and the guy, then her and the guy then all three of us. This went on for 6 rotations. There was no progress with her in my estimation, I was doing everything he asked me to. I don't know how their one-on-ones went, but when it was a threesome, me and him would talk and she would just sit there and fold her arms and glare. On the last one, she blerted something out like, "We need to stop this crap and if you would just fix him everything would be just fine." The guy took over and chewed her for not participating, and on and on. I could not believe things that he revealed about our relationship that I had never seen before. He chewed for quite awile, and he ended by saying that she was playing games with her life and marriage, and playing poker when she came to see him. He said you came in here with "two-of-a-kind" in your hand, and you want to leave with "three-of-a-kind", you came in with 2 Bishops, but you're not getting a "three-of-a-kind" out of me. He asked me what I wanted to do and I said I wanted out and out for good. I went home and packed two apple boxes full of clothes to leave with. She came home and all she could say was "you're really going to leave aren't you, if I thought you were serious I guess I would have taken the counseling serious." That was so pathetic, I left and never went back.

I am sorry for the long rant, maybe I needed to get it out for the last time, but it raises the question about who had all the power. I believe she did, I was strong enough to continue and lucky enough to get a good professional that was both "mormon and male". I went on to get another counseler and I worked through a lot of what bigeddy and rest are discussing here, but that was not a main problem in our marriage even though she used sex as a reward system for good behavior.

It is such a blessing to be away from her and the church.

I don't know what discussion this will bring out here but I am trying to point the gender structure of the church from my experience.

Randy

dogzilla

6th June 2005, 12:12 PM

Randy, thanks for sharing that story. It's my opinion that you have confused the general power structure of the church with the power structure of your marriage. I am truly sorry that your marriage turned out in such a way. I wanted to talk about this:
I was told I was the preisthood holder, I was the man of the family and if she was unhappy it was something I was doing or not doing. My question always was, "I am responsible for her happiness?" The answer always was, "Yes!" I asked, "100%?" Their answer, "Yes, 100%".

I dated a guy a few years ago who was trying to get me to do something that I really didn't want to do. (It was something dumb, like drive across town in the rain, and the reason was dumb too, like he was just too lazy to do it himself.) He tried to manipulate me with the Happy Card.

Stupid Ex BF: "But don't you want me to be happy?"

Dogzilla: "Yes, but what does that have to do with this?"

:p

I explained to him that I believe happiness comes from within and has nothing to do with the people you spend your time with. If it makes him happy to be with me, then that's how he should spend his time, but no one's happiness should be dependent on external factors like that. Of course, Stupid Ex-Boyfriend shut up and I didn't have to drive across town or whatever it was. He realized how much of a p***y he sounded like whining because I wouldn't "make him happy." ('Cause if all those blowjobs weren't going to do the trick... ;) I'm just kidding...)

This is one of those things in MoLand that really gets to me. They prevent people from taking personal responsibility for the choices in their lives and for their own happiness by creating and fostering an environment of such infantile dependence that it's impossible for a grown woman to realize exactly how much control she has over her own marriage, her husband, her family, her life and how she feels about all of it. I wish your wife could have taken responsibility for her own happiness; the two of you might have been able to communicate better and maybe work things out.

bigeddy

6th June 2005, 01:27 PM

Misha,

In all that I say it must be understood that after learning about the balance and having experiences the time does come when the ultimate in balance is wanted and that is full sexual experience. Not only is it wanted at that point but is needed and expected (by our psyche and body). So, when I wrote that I was talking about boys who are in a learning stage. I think you are at a place where it is indeed what you want but it is still about balance.

Try this. Go out and find someone that is completely closed off emotionally and with whom you cannot bond in any way other than that he has a hand (or other body part) like a vibrator. See if the act minus the balance giving connection brings you anything. Usually what people who are where you are at (mature, wise, thoughtful, compassionate [Yes, you are all those things and don't argue with me]) find is that the orgasm is anti-climactic (literally). It is not the act or the orgasm you are wanting it is still the balance. But balance in the form you are ready for and that is the mystical magic of love making fully and completely.

Does that make more sense?

Ed

miss taken

6th June 2005, 02:10 PM

aether

6th June 2005, 03:21 PM

Try this. Go out and find someone that is completely closed off emotionally and with whom you cannot bond in any way other than that he has a hand (or other body part) like a vibrator. See if the act minus the balance giving connection brings you anything. Usually what people who are where you are at (mature, wise, thoughtful, compassionate [Yes, you are all those things and don't argue with me]) find is that the orgasm is anti-climactic (literally). It is not the act or the orgasm you are wanting it is still the balance. But balance in the form you are ready for and that is the mystical magic of love making fully and completely.

Does that make more sense?

Ed

I realized, as I was reading your post, that I was taking the love and intimacy and honesty that I associate with sex for granted. I can't imagine enjoying sex with anyone who I didn't emotionally connect with at all.

But then, how is it that masturbation can be satisfying too? There's no combining of male and female energies there, or any love and intimacy with anyone but one's self. But it still seems like orgasm with a loveless partner would be emptier than one in solitude.

(And just because I need to say so, this topic feels very unusual to discuss.. :o )

bookieewocaster

6th June 2005, 03:25 PM

Hello everybody. I'm new to this site. I was recommended by my girlfriend, Aether, and her mother. They asked me to comment on this thread and so here goes nothing.

I essentially agree with Ed on the pressures that men have in the church. In my few years of being a member, I have felt shame for the last 6 (almost 7 now). I'd like to blame it on the burden of the Priesthood, but common sense tells me to do otherwise.

My family was never one to talk about emotions and, of course, never about sex. My father was, and still is, a small part of my life. I have never felt safe enough around him to express my opinion about him or even the church. When explaining the Priesthood to me sometime about 7 years ago, before I was to be ordained a Deacon. At the time I felt as if I were to be blessed from this, to be one of God's chosen. So I was ordained.

I knew from an early stage that I was all to appealed by the image of the female body or the female sexual energy. Going to church and participating in my Priesthood duties made me feel shameful for the way I was. They told me how even thoughts of pornography, fornication, masturbation and sex were bad to have at this early age. Sex was ordained of God to be done between a man and his wife. During every general conference, especially during the Priesthood session, I would feel worse about my situation. (I must admit I had indulged in pronography and masturbation.) After hearing the General Authorities say how God didn't love the sinners and that this kind of way of life will only lead to destruction, I'd go into despair about myself. I wouldn't show much of it to others (that's the way I was raised), but I would keep it to myself. I felt that if I could repent of my sins that everything would be just fine. God would love me. Questions would be answered about my own spirituality (which wasn't very strong in the first place).

I remember how they always drilled us with how we are carnal and that the carnal man is an enemy to God. That if we let ourselves have any worldly pleasure that we are not deemed worthy of revelation or love from our Heavenly Father. I never felt comfortable enough to go to any of my bishops. They were always judgemental. Each one of them, even the one that I have now (yes, I still go to church), thought about how perfect I was. That I was the ideal man. Almost a modern day Job or Nephi or whatever fuh-biblical character you want to substitute. Each sunday, and even when I went to Seminary, I'd have this feeling of guilt, shame, and dispair sink into me. I felt red as crimson with sin, or black as coal with darkness.

Even with stuff that didn't have anything to do with worthyness, I still felt pressure from. Like I said before my church leaders idolized me for the way I acted--the way I faked righteousness. There were times where my own parents bore their testimonies of how great of a "gift" I was to them. It made me realize how "elitist" (to use Ed's word) they were and wanted to be. I was idolized for my knowledge of the scriptures... the stuff you memorize in Primary. I never felt like anybody knew me at church, that they would be happy with my perfect little image and facade. It was pressureing for me because I felt like I had to be that image that everyone thought I was, but I wasn't. So, I felt horrible about myself at all times. I felt I was living a lie that I couldn't shrug, that it was best to let them believe in me.

Please excuse the length of the post. It might not be too relevent, but this is what I've experienced.

Benson

peter_mary

6th June 2005, 04:08 PM

Hello everybody. I'm new to this site.

I'd like to blame it on the burden of the Priesthood, but common sense tells me to do otherwise.

Benson

Yo, Benson! Welcome!

I can SO agree with what you're speaking of! I've processed this at length with friends, and don't really have the energy to go into it again, but what you're talking about was a killer for me, and a great liberation when I bailed on Church.

I knew in my heart that I couldn't be the perfect Priesthood example that I was supposed to be, and so had condemned myself to a lesser Kingdom than my wife. This was nothing less than hell, but the denial of who I was was just too powerful. I'm not just talking about the fact that I was a sexual person, but in every other way, too. I never served a mission. I was terrible about family home evening, family prayers and scripture study, and could seldom bring myself to pay tithing on the gross. I just fell short at every turn, and I got hammered relentlessly at Church. I knew what the ideal was--Jesus, the perfect one--and I knew that there was no way I was gonna get there.

So I resigned myself to the Terrestrial Kingdom, 'cause that was as good as it was gonna get. My wife, who a) doesn't have nearly the libido I have, and b) wasn't the one who was eternally responsible for the burden of leading a family in righteousness (she just had to follow ME in righteousness...hell, I probably could have DONE that! :p ) was no doubt going to make it to the Celestial Kingdom and be sealed to someone more worthy than me.

Anyone care to guess how miserable I was? :(

Anyone doubt how happy I was to bail? :D

Peter_Mary

aether

6th June 2005, 04:25 PM

Hello everybody. I'm new to this site. I was recommended by my girlfriend, Aether, and her mother. They asked me to comment on this thread and so here goes nothing.

Benson my love! You actually posted! I knew I would convert you eventually! :p Welcome to the fold. ^_^

bigeddy

6th June 2005, 04:51 PM

Ed, but the trouble with wanting sex, is that it is a dual experience, and you make it sound like such a selfish thing. I need sex, I want sex, so I am going to find it.

Apologies if I am misreading you, but imo it isn't as easy as that, sex, whether we like it or not, comes with consequences, both emotional and physical.

I think personally that the most important thing is to be wise about it, to be honest and to wait until we find that person with whom we can connect and find that balance that you write of.

Sex is mutual and it cannot be balanced where there is dishonesty or where one participant wants one thing, and the other wants something entirely different.

Mary

First of all Mary, I agree with you completely. Maybe it is in my way of using the term balance. Let me try to clarify.

When you said that the attitude typified by "I need sex, I want sex, so I am going to find it." is selfish, I would agree. But if you said it is selfish to say "I need balance, I want balance, and so I am going to find it." I would disagree.

The word balance is used on purpose. Imagine the balance needed to ride a bike. If out of balance there is a consequence whether we like it or not, whether it is "right" or not it just is. If we are out of balance and don't correct--we fall. If I say to a rider who is out of balance "Wait until the right time to find balance!" He will hit the dirt. The right time to find balance is when one is out of balance. Or if I say "You are selfish to want balance so just knock it off." He will hit the dirt again.

Now, where we may not be communicating clearly is in the way I think we need to acheive this balance. Sex is only one way and the most complex way and the most difficult to negotiate. Here I agree with you about the seriousness of the consequences involved and the need for care and concern. A 3 yr.-old may stay in balance because he hugs his mom and associates with his sisters.
A 5 yr.old balance comes also mainly from mom. As he gets older he will find needed balance from associating in non-sexual ways with girls all around him. It is when we teach him that his fascination with the female is "all about sex" that we mess with his head. It is about much more than that. So a male who decides "I will get my balance by having sex with whomever I please whenever I please" is truly not only being selfish, he is being unwise because he will not get much balance by dominating and forcing himself on anyone. He will never be satisfied this way and will not be in balance. (He will get to relieve his anger at feminine energy and feel like he restored the power he feels he lost to it, which is what rape is about).

There is no right person to find balance with. Balance can come from any female I encounter if I do so with respect and dignity for both our energies. But, finding true balance through sex can only happen under the appropriate circumstances. So, I agree with you that it can never happen in an atmosphere of dishonesty, disrespect or usury.

When we teach kids that the need for balance they feel is just about sex we set off the whole ugly mess.

Hope this makes more sense.

Ed

bigeddy

6th June 2005, 05:05 PM

But then, how is it that masturbation can be satisfying too? There's no combining of male and female energies there, or any love and intimacy with anyone but one's self. But it still seems like orgasm with a loveless partner would be emptier than one in solitude.

(And just because I need to say so, this topic feels very unusual to discuss.. :o )

It is wonderful to discuss. Of all the things I think post mos need to learn a lot about it is sex.

Anyway, I have never heard of anyone who masturbates while reviewing the quadratic equation. Everyone I know also fantasizes in some way about the needed sexual energy. This is one way to find some degree of balance. (If you know anyone who does get a full bang out of the quadratic equation--let me know!)

Ed.

bookieewocaster

6th June 2005, 07:24 PM

It is wonderful to discuss. Of all the things I think post mos need to learn a lot about it is sex.

Anyway, I have never heard of anyone who masturbates while reviewing the quadratic equation. Everyone I know also fantasizes in some way about the needed sexual energy. This is one way to find some degree of balance. (If you know anyone who does get a full bang out of the quadratic equation--let me know!)

Ed.

Math tutor here, Ed. I'm not going to admit about reevalutating the quadratic equation while in the throes of masturbation, but I'm not going to dismiss the quirkyness of myself in order to do so. ;) :p JK

But, in the fantasy of masturbation, aren't most people lying to themselves? I mean, they aren't getting any sort of energies from themself, and they aren't getting it from anybody else at that time. So is what they are feeling fake energy? Or is it releasing the energy withing to become one with oneself? (If that makes sense. :o )

-Benson

free thinker

7th June 2005, 01:20 AM

Please excuse the length of the post. It might not be too relevent, but this is what I've experienced.

Benson

Dont worry about the length or relevance of your post!! I found it completely relevant, and doubt you could have expressed yourself in less words.

We all learn something from each other here. You dont have to please anyone here. Just be yourself !! That is who we really want to know!! :cool:

Free Thinker

taruleo

11th June 2005, 10:04 AM

Welcome Taruleo

I don't know what discussion this will bring out here but I am trying to point the gender structure of the church from my experience.

Randy

Thanks for the welcome! and thanks for the post, I feel that the roles that the church gives to both sides are harmful. I appreciated hearing your experience from the other side. It seems that many women that I know personally use the church to control both their husbands and their children. The thing that makes it the most frustrating to me is that many of these women are very good people and they believe this is the best thing for everyone. The women in the church most definitely have some power, I think it is just more passive. It does seem to me that who has the power often depends on the dynamics of the relationship and the personalities involved.

taruleo

11th June 2005, 02:10 PM

I never felt like anybody knew me at church, that they would be happy with my perfect little image and facade. Benson

My father expressed similar experiences in the church. He said that the pressure to be the spiritual guidance of the family at all times as well as be ready to give blessings and be the voice of god at the drop of the hat was very wearing on him. Especially as he started to doubt the church and was feeling guilty and unworthy. I myself have noticed how shallow many of the relationships in the church are. Most topics of conversation are church related (read boring) and don't have much to do with who we really are. They run around keeping up the facade and avoiding who they truely are. Thanks for the post, I am sure you are not alone in your experiences.

why me

12th June 2005, 09:50 AM

My father expressed similar experiences in the church. He said that the pressure to be the spiritual guidance of the family at all times as well as be ready to give blessings and be the voice of god at the drop of the hat was very wearing on him. Especially as he started to doubt the church and was feeling guilty and unworthy. I myself have noticed how shallow many of the relationships in the church are. Most topics of conversation are church related (read boring) and don't have much to do with who we really are. They run around keeping up the facade and avoiding who they truely are. Thanks for the post, I am sure you are not alone in your experiences.

I have never exercised my priesthood duties because of my own unrighteous lifestyle but I can understand your father's feelings. Also the facade can be true also. It would be so nice to get real conversations at church. Just who are you brother and sister would be a good start. Why do people shy away from themselves when they enter the church building? No one is perfect afterall...it would have been so nice to get honest conversation about life and living. It would have also so nice to see real people with real issues to discuss in meetings. There needs to be more flesh and blood (without skin) in the image of the people who attend the meetings...

bigeddy

13th June 2005, 09:41 AM

But, in the fantasy of masturbation, aren't most people lying to themselves? I mean, they aren't getting any sort of energies from themself, and they aren't getting it from anybody else at that time. So is what they are feeling fake energy? Or is it releasing the energy withing to become one with oneself? (If that makes sense. :o )

-Benson

The energy most receive when fantasizing is coming from the is. That energy is out there waiting for us to tap in. When men look at porno they are enjoying the feminine energy that IS. They are tapping into it through the porno and the fantasizing. What it does not do is give them the fullness, the rounded richness of a real human being behind it. Of course, that is often what they fear and are trying to avoid by finding balance in ways that actually block them from real people.

Sorry I took so long to respond. I have been out of town. I enjoyed your introductory post and found your story to be so typical of what hurts us in the church. It is fine for children to see polarized processes at work but when we mature we need to be able to struggle with the reality of the complexity. When we are agraid to do that I think we turn to the facade production. So much of what you said is exactly what I experienced and what stunted and hurt me. I am glad you are looking beyond the church and growing in that direction. I find no answers for evolving males in moism--only control by other men who are too afraid to grow themselves.

Welcome Benson. I hear that you keep damn fine company!

Ed

flotsam

13th June 2005, 03:37 PM

I recently wrote this for the Sugar Beet. Thought it was relevant to the conversation.

Man’s addiction to wife destroying relationship with porn

AUSTIN, TX – After years of commitment and fidelity, Austin resident Jesse Bingham is watching his relationship with porn being torn apart by a raging addiction to his wife.

“I never thought it would happen to me,” said Bingham, sitting in an apartment rife with the telltale signs of wife addiction: photographs, love letters, gifts. “My relationship with my porn was a deep one. I only had eyes for the girls in the magazines , the videos or on the Internet, but then, one day…” He trailed off.

According to sources close to Bingham, his descent into wife addiction started innocently enough.

“He just went to a dance,” said Torvald Hampton, a college buddy, “It wasn’t like he was pursuing an addiction to a real live woman. He was just curious. But once he had a taste, he just couldn’t keep away.”

Hampton went on to recount numerous nights spent watching porn videos alone in his apartment, his once faithful friend out feeding the bottomless pit of his new addiction.

“Man, sometimes he just went too far, bringing Nancy right into the apartment here. I mean, what was I supposed to do? He’d sit there on the couch, the very couch where we first watched Bilious Lesbian Circus Vendors, and put HIS ARM AROUND HER WAIST!”

Bingham’s psychologist, with permission from Bingham, said he showed all the signs of a deepening spouse addiction. “He spent all his money on her. He neglected his magazines; missed his weekly visits to the Hentai Hut of Hooters; and started getting up in the middle of the night to write emails to his ‘beloved.’ I tell you, it’s a classic case.”

More disturbing still are accounts from Bingham’s family that he actually started showing signs of caring about the woman that would, one dark day, become his wife.

“He took care of her for a whole week while she was sick. Took leave from work and everything. She threw up on him, which should have given him a clue. But no. Jesse was too far gone by then,” said Sara Bingham, Jesse’s younger sister. “What kind of example is he setting for me here?”

Bingham admits that he is completely enveloped by his addiction to his wife. “I think about her constantly. I go home to her every chance I get. I’ve barely seen my porn since my wife addiction started. And when I do … I don’t know, the trust just isn’t there anymore, you know? But the fact is, my wife has set the standard too high. I have unrealistic expectations for my porn now, and it just can’t live up to those.”

Bingham swears he has tried to go back to his porn, “but I just expect all these perverse things like warmth, flirtation, care, and an actual female body that my porn just cannot put out.”

Bingham and his porn are trying a trial separation to see if they can work out their differences. His porn has gone to Hampton’s apartment for the duration of the separation.