Your chance to infiltrate the Mormons!

[flotsam]

Hey All,

Turns out I get to teach next week's priesthood lesson on (music swells) Living the Word of Wisdom.

As is my style, I'm looking for some serious monkeywrenches to throw in the works. And I thought, hey, what would be more fun than to consult with my Post-Mo friends and bring their messages of light and hope to the ignorant masses, otherwise known as my priesthood quorum?

I'll take anything, but what I'm really hoping for are some good paradoxes that will make them question their understanding of the WOFW, and hopefully lead them to reject oatmeal. :D

But seriously folks. Ever had anything you wanted to say to a TBM about the WOFW?!

[helemon]

Hey All,

Turns out I get to teach next week's priesthood lesson on (music swells) Living the Word of Wisdom.

As is my style, I'm looking for some serious monkeywrenches to throw in the works. And I thought, hey, what would be more fun than to consult with my Post-Mo friends and bring their messages of light and hope to the ignorant masses, otherwise known as my priesthood quorum?

I'll take anything, but what I'm really hoping for are some good paradoxes that will make them question their understanding of the WOFW, and hopefully lead them to reject oatmeal. :D

But seriously folks. Ever had anything you wanted to say to a TBM about the WOFW?!

Hmm. You can bring up the stuff about the bar in the mansion house and the distillery that BY built.

The cigar that Joseph smoked.

The wine Joseph drank at Carthage.

The coffee the pioneers took in their supplies.

McKay's comments about decaf coffee.

The whole caffiene issue with soda and chocolate.

Ask why you can be denied a temple recommend if you have a beer but not if you eat a 12oz steak.

Ask what they think mild drinks refers to.

Bring up that hot drinks in the day referred to temp not substance.

Point out that much of the WoW is not unique to Mormons and much of it was taught by other groups of Joseph's time.

Ask them about Emma's influence on why it was given.

Ask them why if God said it was not a commandment "To be sent greeting; not by commandment or constraint" that the church treats it like one?

Ask why it took so long for it to become a commandment?

Ask about the reported health benefits of wine, tea, and even coffee.

Ask why they haven't been ammended to explicity mention the dangers of the drugs of our day.

Ask how many keep the WoW then ask them if the ever get weary when they run?

That should be enough for the 45 minutes alotted for the lesson. :D

[free thinker]

Hmm. You can bring up the stuff about the bar in the mansion house and the distillery that BY built.

The cigar that Joseph smoked.

The wine Joseph drank at Carthage.

The coffee the pioneers took in their supplies.

McKay's comments about decaf coffee.

The whole caffiene issue with soda and chocolate.

Ask why you can be denied a temple recommend if you have a beer but not if you eat a 12oz steak.

Ask what they think mild drinks refers to.

Bring up that hot drinks in the day referred to temp not substance.

Point out that much of the WoW is not unique to Mormons and much of it was taught by other groups of Joseph's time.

Ask them about Emma's influence on why it was given.

Ask them why if God said it was not a commandment "To be sent greeting; not by commandment or constraint" that the church treats it like one?

Ask why it took so long for it to become a commandment?

Ask about the reported health benefits of wine, tea, and even coffee.

Ask why they haven't been ammended to explicity mention the dangers of the drugs of our day.

Ask how many keep the WoW then ask them if the ever get weary when they run?

That should be enough for the 45 minutes alotted for the lesson.


Make sure you schedule time to visit with the bishop after this class! I am sure he will have some questions!! :cool:

Free Thinker

[Born Free]

Hey All,

Turns out I get to teach next week's priesthood lesson on (music swells) Living the Word of Wisdom.

As is my style, I'm looking for some serious monkeywrenches to throw in the works. And I thought, hey, what would be more fun than to consult with my Post-Mo friends and bring their messages of light and hope to the ignorant masses, otherwise known as my priesthood quorum?

I'll take anything, but what I'm really hoping for are some good paradoxes that will make them question their understanding of the WOFW, and hopefully lead them to reject oatmeal. :D

But seriously folks. Ever had anything you wanted to say to a TBM about the WOFW?!

Elsewhere on this site you will find a/several threads on WoW in which we kicked many of these issues around.

For me, one of the most powerful angles is to see how many verses meat gets in the WoW, relative to other substances which are now worthiness-critical.

Without being an obvious stirrer, you can make the point (count the verses) and then ask on what basis they believe that the emphasis is now so off meat consumption.

I have never seen anyone try to justify that shift. I see it as completely unjustifiable.

In that previous thread/s I think I spelt out the shifts I saw over time, and they always followed shifts in broader societal emphasis. So rather than being revelation-driven, they are societally-pulled.

Daryl

Ok, I looked them up. The 2nd might be the best. See:

http://www.postmormon.org/forum_vb/showthread.php?t=523

http://www.postmormon.org/forum_vb/showthread.php?t=96

[silverfox]

Gawd. This may sound mean and cruel but I don't mean it to be that way. I really really really don't BUT


Where does obesity fit into the WoW? Seriously?

You go to a church function and be fed hot dogs and ice cream. Healthy? NOT.

That's all I have to say about that. I will take my slaps. I seriously don't mean for this to offend anyone but I think of it often and always have and am just now saying it outloud.

When a TBM someone worries about a glass of wine I might have I can't help but think "and how many pig's assholes, tails, and hoofs did you eat today?" We won't talk about additives and chemicals.

Gimme a break.

[why me]

Hey All,

Turns out I get to teach next week's priesthood lesson on (music swells) Living the Word of Wisdom.

As is my style, I'm looking for some serious monkeywrenches to throw in the works. And I thought, hey, what would be more fun than to consult with my Post-Mo friends and bring their messages of light and hope to the ignorant masses, otherwise known as my priesthood quorum?

I'll take anything, but what I'm really hoping for are some good paradoxes that will make them question their understanding of the WOFW, and hopefully lead them to reject oatmeal. :D

But seriously folks. Ever had anything you wanted to say to a TBM about the WOFW?!

The word of wisdom has many angle, not just the alcohol, tobacco, hot drinks angle. Some posters have mentioned meat consumption in this thread but there is also advice about not running faster than you are able. This is interpreted as not doing more than you can. You can bring this up. We had this discussion last sunday in a joint meeting between the relief society and priesthood. I brought into the picture work life and school life where in general people are expected to run rather fast these days much to the detriment to their health. The push for more and more competition, more and more productivity, more and more effiency on the average worker is certainly taking its toll on health and family life. My question: What can members do to halt the runaway society and should members put pressure on the economic and political elite to bring into the scenerio a more humane and human work environment? A more family-friendly social structure? A less exploitative economic structure? And finally, a more human-centered circumstance for us to live in so we can all catch our breath and live a truly more human life.
I am not sure if your priesthood is ready to hear an indirect critique of the capital way of life but you can give it a try... :)
I also mentioned that members should not do more work than they are able to do. Good luck....

[mindbender]

The word of wisdom has many angle, not just the alcohol, tobacco, hot drinks angle. Some posters have mentioned meat consumption in this thread but there is also advice about not running faster than you are able. This is interpreted as not doing more than you can. You can bring this up. We had this discussion last sunday in a joint meeting between the relief society and priesthood. I brought into the picture work life and school life where in general people are expected to run rather fast these days much to the detriment to their health. The push for more and more competition, more and more productivity, more and more effiency on the average worker is certainly taking its toll on health and family life. My question: What can members do to halt the runaway society and should members put pressure on the economic and political elite to bring into the scenerio a more humane and human work environment? A more family-friendly social structure? A less exploitative economic structure? And finally, a more human-centered circumstance for us to live in so we can all catch our breath and live a truly more human life.
I am not sure if your priesthood is ready to hear an indirect critique of the capital way of life but you can give it a try... :)
I also mentioned that members should not do more work than they are able to do. Good luck....one question my friend has is , why are members allowed to the temple when they take pescription drugs such as prozac but he can,t go because he smokes mariajana, (sorry about the spelling

[miss taken]

I still pretty much keep the word of wisdom now. Careful with meat, decaff coffee, but the cappucino, and hazlenut varieties are lovely!!! Hate tea, like herbals,
Alchohol makes me totally wooozy, even half a glass, and gives me headaches. Hate smoking (dad died of passive smoking - lung cancer).

It's a pretty good health law in general.

What I HATED HATED HATED HATED (get the point) was people judging others who dont keep the current church defined WoW.

I hated people using it as a whip, to bash others with, to make themselves feel more righteous, more in tune with God, when all they were doing was maybe, maybe, making themselves a little more healthy.

Coffee, tea, smoking, linked to infertility, cancer.

But a little coffee can wake you up, as can a can of coke.

Husband takes Codeine, and some other drugs for headaches, these often contain caffeine.

Post child birth I am still 2 stone overweight, to me that is far more detrimental to my health, than the odd cup of coffee.

I think members use it as an 'obedience' thing. Shows you are a fully fledge member, obeying what everyone's interpretation of the WoW is..

It doesn't and never did in my opinion make me 'righteous' or 'good' just a little more healthy. And there are plenty of non-mormons far healthier than I am.

Mary

[why me]

I still pretty much keep the word of wisdom now. Careful with meat, decaff coffee, but the cappucino, and hazlenut varieties are lovely!!! Hate tea, like herbals,
Alchohol makes me totally wooozy, even half a glass, and gives me headaches. Hate smoking (dad died of passive smoking - lung cancer).

It's a pretty good health law in general.

What I HATED HATED HATED HATED (get the point) was people judging others who dont keep the current church defined WoW.

I hated people using it as a whip, to bash others with, to make themselves feel more righteous, more in tune with God, when all they were doing was maybe, maybe, making themselves a little more healthy.

Coffee, tea, smoking, linked to infertility, cancer.

But a little coffee can wake you up, as can a can of coke.

Husband takes Codeine, and some other drugs for headaches, these often contain caffeine.

Post child birth I am still 2 stone overweight, to me that is far more detrimental to my health, than the odd cup of coffee.

I think members use it as an 'obedience' thing. Shows you are a fully fledge member, obeying what everyone's interpretation of the WoW is..

It doesn't and never did in my opinion make me 'righteous' or 'good' just a little more healthy. And there are plenty of non-mormons far healthier than I am.

Mary


I think that the word of wisdom is rather good. I don't think that it is caffeine in general but coffee and tea which is considered the most harmful. Certainly caffeine as a drug can be useful. There are many energy drinks on the market that I am sure some members use. And there are zealots who won't even drink a coke. I think that to live the word of wisdom can be a great benefit but you are right, it can also be judgemental in the grey areas of usage. But coffee and tea are harmful as are alcohol and tobacco products. But a cup of hot chocolate....well what is harmful in having a cupful...? :)

[dogzilla]

My burning question: Why is it you can't get into the temple if you drink Coca-cola, but you can get into the temple if you eat beef every single day?

Caffeine is specifically NOT mentioned in the WOW (believe me, I printed it off and re-read it about 100 times to write my Peep Stone Story about the Word of Wisdom Act -- And I'd link to that but I can't get to Peep Stone from my work server.), yet caffeine use or lack thereof is used as a measuring stick for temple worthiness. It never seems to occur to people that maybe it's the "hot" part of the drink that makes it unholy, not the caffeinated part, of which they would have been completely unaware when D&C was written. (cite: Caffeine was isolated in 1819, but I'm sure it took a while for word to get around from Germany to J.S and The Boys.) Perhaps hot drinks get the blood circulating to your nether regions, causing you to think about sex which is bad, bad, bad. :rolleyes:

Conversely, eating meat is specifically mentioned that it should only be done in "winter or in times of famine". I guess the definition of "winter" can depend on where you live -- it should make tropical mormons vegetarians, that's for sure. Yet, Mos can eat all the meat they want, supporting some unsavory farming practices (don't even get me started), and still be temple-worthy. If you can sort that dichotomy out for me, I'd appreciate it.

P.S. Red Bull and other energy drinks have more caffeine than soda... when will those be banned? Can you still get into the temple if you drink Red Bull?

More about caffeine: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caffeine

[peter_mary]

I have YET to see information that suggests that coffee or tea in moderation is harmful in any way, shape or form. Anything consumed in excess is bad (even carrots can overload your system with beta carrotine and turn you orange!), but when consumed in moderation can be helpful. When I consider how much clearer I think with a single espresso/coffee in my system in the morning, I'm not in any way convinced that's not a good thing.

I'm more leary of alcohol simply because a) I don't care for it personally, but b) because so often people don't know if they will be able to handle it responsibly until it's too late (I've seen it...it ain't pretty). It's not a moral issue to me, it's about "usefullness," and I just don't care for how it makes me think or feel. And I worry about the impacts on society from those who seem unable to manage that particular substance.

That said, this has always been one of my favorite passages in the WOW:

D&C 89:17--Nevertheless, wheat for man, and corn for the ox, and oats for the horse, and rye for the fowls and for swine, and for all beasts of the field, and barley for all useful animals, and for mild drinks, as also other grain.

:D Personally, I am only familiar with a single 'mild drink made of barley,' and I believe Joseph served it abundantly in the saloon he allowed Porter Rockwell to establish in the Mansion House (until the more Puritan minded Emma tossed him out).

I am amazed at the GALLONS of Mountain Dew and Diet Coke I watch members consume, and yet no one bats an eye. My dentist tells me that Mt. Dew is THE WORST THING for teeth, and anyone in the health field, alternative or modern, will tell you that soda pop has tons of good reasons not to consume it, while coffee, tea or red wine are far better.

In terms of the lesson, it would be interesting to explore how a "Heavenly recommendation" would come about in the first place (versus a comandment) and how it morphed into one of the most salient commandments of Mormondom.

It might also be interesting to research the number of cults that impose unusual dietary restrictions on their members...it is my understanding that that is a hallmark of cults, and indicative of the control paradigm under which they operate.

Peter_Mary

okay, tjohnson, now we need a latte-sipping smilie! :)

[pokatator]

Are there any health hazards associated with the consumption of green jello?

Does green jello react like green M&Ms? That could explain some things.

Did you know that statistics have proven that 95% of all people are caused by accidents?!!

Casserole addiction, that's it CA, twelve steps out of casserole addiction!!

Sorry couldn't help being off-the-wall.

[taruleo]

But coffee and tea are harmful as are alcohol and tobacco products. But a cup of hot chocolate....well what is harmful in having a cupful...? :)

Actually there have been recent studies that coffee under five cups a day has no significant harmful effects for most people and can decrease the risk of gall bladder disease in men. Red wine has been found beneficial in small amounts daily as well. I heard and read these recently and if I can find the references I will post them. I suspect that in moderation most things are useful or at least with out lasting effects. It seems to be overindulgence that is the problem.

[aether]

It seems to be overindulgence that is the problem.

But of course to Mormons, anything that could be bad with overindulgence has too much potential to be addictive, and should not even be considered, not even a little bit.

[dogzilla]

But of course to Mormons, anything that could be bad with overindulgence has too much potential to be addictive, and should not even be considered, not even a little bit.

Then they shouldn't shop, surf the internet, post to message boards, or have sex... all of which could be addictive in the wrong hands.

Frankly, I think one could become addicted to green jello with bits of carrot suspended in it. It certainly mimics the appearance of evil. ;)

[nate]

I recall being told frequently that, even though the D&C says it is basically a guideline, it has since become a commandment.

A. Was it official turned into a commandment through revelation to a prophet?

B. When?

C. If not, why is it a temple recommend question?

[darkslider]

I recall being told frequently that, even though the D&C says it is basically a guideline, it has since become a commandment.

A. Was it official turned into a commandment through revelation to a prophet?

B. When?

C. If not, why is it a temple recommend question?

Sad to say I know the answer to this question.

A. Brigham Young brought the subject up during General Conference and it was voted upon by the general population. Not "revelation" per se, but still made official.

B. General Conference 1851.

[nate]

Sad to say I know the answer to this question.

A. Brigham Young brought the subject up during General Conference and it was voted upon by the general population. Not "revelation" per se, but still made official.

B. General Conference 1851.

Thanks Dark!

Funny, how I could never seem to get that answer out of any TBMs, but I find the answer here, from you!

[nate]

Thanks Dark!

Funny, how I could never seem to get that answer out of any TBMs, but I find the answer here, from you!

This brings up another question:

Since it was BY, when was Porter's bar opened in the Mansion House? Was it before or after?

[Born Free]

Sad to say I know the answer to this question.

A. Brigham Young brought the subject up during General Conference and it was voted upon by the general population. Not "revelation" per se, but still made official.

B. General Conference 1851.
I haven't time to check it right now, but I believe that the Church did not formally embrace the WoW until the 1920s, when they took adherence to it to the levels that are now familiar.

I am not saying that the GC step mentioned did not occur, just that little changed on the ground until the latter date.

OK, I went and did some checking. You can get an apologists version in a response to a Tanner criticism at:

http://www.mormonfortress.com/wow2.html

It appears I was out above in my recall:

"John Taylor, Brigham Young’s successor, took leadership of the Church in 1880, and two years later, according to one researcher, received a revelation designating the Word of Wisdom as a commandment. (Cited in Peterson, 69-70.) By the following year (1883) the Church saw the commencement of a “Second Reformation” which stressed, among other things, greater observance of the Word of Wisdom. (Ibid., 71.) In fact, the Quorum of the Twelve pledged themselves to observe the principals of the Word of Wisdom."

Later on in that article:

"By 1906, in keeping with the increased emphasis on abstinence, the First Presidency and Twelve substituted water for wine in the sacrament in their temple meetings. (Cited in Bergera, 32; see also Alexander [1981], 79 and Alexander [1986], 261.) Seven years later, the First Presidency instructed the President of the Salt Lake Stake, not to call or recommend missionaries who did not observe the Word of Wisdom. (Clark, 4:283.) Five years later Heber J. Grant became Church President and in 1921, adherence to the Word of Wisdom was made a requirement for admission to the temple. (Alexander [1981], 82; Peterson, 90.)"

Daryl

[nate]

"By 1906, in keeping with the increased emphasis on abstinence, the First Presidency and Twelve substituted water for wine in the sacrament in their temple meetings. (Cited in Bergera, 32; see also Alexander [1981], 79 and Alexander [1986], 261.) Seven years later, the First Presidency instructed the President of the Salt Lake Stake, not to call or recommend missionaries who did not observe the Word of Wisdom. (Clark, 4:283.) Five years later Heber J. Grant became Church President and in 1921, adherence to the Word of Wisdom was made a requirement for admission to the temple. (Alexander [1981], 82; Peterson, 90.)"

Daryl

Do you think that the earlier "saints" followed the WOW the way it was written, as far as more emphasis on meat than barley drinks? I seems to me that, over time, the church has tended to emphasise only certain portions of the WOW, and therefore, the present day members do not even think of the meat and such when asked the question. I know I didn't...EVEN THOUGH I HAD READ IT.

Also, the member applying for the recommend is responsible for telling the truth in the interview, and if they lie, that's on their head. What if they don't KNOW they are lying? How many actually think that the WOW does NOT apply to meat, due to the lack of focus on that part of the scripture by the church? So, if the church is true (haha), is it setting it's members up for reprimand in the afterlife by not focusing on the "commandment" AS IT WAS WRITTEN?

[helemon]

Coffee, tea, smoking, linked to infertility, cancer.


http://www.accessexcellence.org/WN/SUA12/cafe399.html
"French researchers reported that caffeine has no affect on the area of the brain involved with addiction at doses of one to three cups of coffee per day. Astrid Nehlig, Ph.D., of the French National Health and Medical Research Institute conducted research with laboratory animals that confirmed that while moderate does of caffeine contribute to increased alertness and energy, dependence does not occur at those levels.

In this respect, caffeine appears to act differently from amphetamines, cocaine, morphine or nicotine,"

"Tea drinkers also got some good news. Researchers from the Japanese Food Research Institute reported new data about a major group of compounds in green tea called catechins. These compounds have anti-oxidative, as well as antibacterial and even antiviral potency, the researchers noted.American researchers reported that these same compounds inhibited atherosclerosis, or hardening of the arteries in hamsters during a 10 week dose-response experiment. Both green and black tea lowered lipids and lipid oxidation in the hamsters, even at very low dilutions, according to a University of Scranton investigator."

"In one study presented at the conference, researchers reported that cacao liquor, an ingredient of chocolate and cocoa, contains antioxidative polyphenolic substances. In animal studies, these compounds showed anti-ulceric activity in rats, as well as an inhibitory effect on tumor promotion in mouse skin. A related in vitro study suggested that these polyphenolic compounds, specifically the procyanidins and oligomeric procyanidins that contribute to the flavor of chocolate and cocoa, may also offer cardiovascular benefits."

" Dark chocolate contained four times the level of polyphenol antioxidants compared to kidney beans, which have one of the highest levels found in fruits or vegetables."

http://www.coffeereview.com/reference.cfm?ID=122
"According to a spate of such recent studies moderate coffee drinking may lower the risk of colon cancer by about 25%, gallstones by 45%, cirrhosis of the liver by 80%, and Parkinson's disease by 50% to as much as 80%. Other benefits include 25% reduction in onset of attacks among asthma sufferers and, at least among a large group of female nurses tracked over many years, fewer suicides.

In addition, some studies have indicated that coffee contains four times the amount of cancer-fighting anti-oxidants as green tea. "

[helemon]

So, if the church is true (haha), is it setting it's members up for reprimand in the afterlife by not focusing on the "commandment" AS IT WAS WRITTEN?

It is setting them up for a reprimand in this life from their cardiologist! I wonder if part of the reasoning for including meat was scarcity or high cost? But then there was all that wild game back then I suppose. Still I wonder if meat was less common as the main staple of the meal as it is today in many homes. It would be better to save the salted and smoked meat products for the winter time when other foods were less available.

[helemon]

Are there any health hazards associated with the consumption of green jello?

http://cms.psychologytoday.com/articles/pto-3424.html
"When Koby Tavel was 10 months old, ... a half-eaten cup of Jell-O landed him in the hospital. “It was really traumatic,” his mother, Aviva Tavel, says."

[Born Free]

Do you think that the earlier "saints" followed the WOW the way it was written, as far as more emphasis on meat than barley drinks? I seems to me that, over time, the church has tended to emphasise only certain portions of the WOW, and therefore, the present day members do not even think of the meat and such when asked the question. I know I didn't...EVEN THOUGH I HAD READ IT.

Also, the member applying for the recommend is responsible for telling the truth in the interview, and if they lie, that's on their head. What if they don't KNOW they are lying? How many actually think that the WOW does NOT apply to meat, due to the lack of focus on that part of the scripture by the church? So, if the church is true (haha), is it setting it's members up for reprimand in the afterlife by not focusing on the "commandment" AS IT WAS WRITTEN?

Personally I don't think 'God' gives a fig. But I will ask him when he comes over for a beer and a BBQ!

Daryl

[noodle]

Having worked in a medical office, I was always surprised at the number of patients who asked the doctor for a prescription for coffee so that they could drink it for medical reasons (usually headaches, etc). It somehow made them "legal" when they talked to their bishop. Isn't that crazy? I'm also amazed at the number of people (good Mos, I'm sure) filling up their gallon-sized jugs of soda pop at Chevron at 7am. BTW, these same folks are often quite obese as well. :eek:

[peter_mary]

This brings up another question:

Since it was BY, when was Porter's bar opened in the Mansion House? Was it before or after?

The Mansion House was a Nauvoo establishment, built for the Prophet at the expense of his people. He was, shall we say, "growing comfortable with his role as Prophet, Priest and King." Anyway, Porter Rockwell returned from Missouri (where he was likely the perpetrator of the assassination attempt on Governor Boggs) in December of 1843. It was then that Joseph determined to have a tavern in Nauvoo, which he temporarily allowed to be set up in the Mansion House (which sort of served as an Inn, too). The following is from page 103 of Harold Schindler's "Orrin Porter Rockwell: Man of God/Son of Thunder:"

"While the Neighbor and other newspapers traded volleys over his case, Rockwell began thinking about the future. Here, too, Joseph had plans. In a city where liquor was controlled by the mayor, what better business to be in than tavern-keeping? As a matter of fact, Joseph mused as he glanced at Rockwell's shoulder-length hair, Nauvoo could also use a barbershop. If the two enterprises were combined, the operator of such an establishment would surely make money, especially since the prophet could not hope to accomodate every visitor to the city at his new Mansion House barroom. The idea appealed to Rockwell, and it suited Joseph's plans as well. Consequently, a choice lot directly across the street from the Mansion House was set aside for the purpose, and work was ordered begun on a building to house the saloon and barbershop. In the meantime, Joseph suggested that Rockwell practice his bar-tending at the Mansion House."

It was then that Emma intervened, arriving home from a furniture buying expedition (I wonder who paid for that? Hmm....some things never change :rolleyes: ). Upon finding Rockwell tending bar in her home, she laid down the law...me or the saloon. Joseph picked Emma, and Rockwell took out the tavern.

[Side note: Does it bother anyone else that a) Joseph was Mayor of Nauvoo, so he controlled the sale of liquor AND planned to be the principal merchant of such? And b) does it seem a bit of a conflict of interest to sequester your people away on the edge of the wilderness, and then contrive to build buisnesses that your followers must patronize, thereby making even MORE money off of their circumstances? It just seems awful to me...without conscience.]

The 89th Section was given in Kirtland, in 1833...so you can see how ten years later, Joseph was not too conerned about it. And it was 20 years later that BY would get it approved as commandment (though he struggled with chewing tobacco most of his life), and it wouldn't be until the 1920s that it finally made it as one of the defining characteristics of a temple-worthy Mormon.

So there's a little history lesson for those who are new to Post-Moism...

Peter_Mary

[formermormon]

I think it's interesting (and confirms what Daryl said earlier in the thread) that the timing of the most intense changes around the WOW came around the time of the temperance movement in the U.S.---prohibition and all. The mormons of the time sent delegates to the women's suffrage meetings where the alcohol issue was also an intertwined cause. Hmmmm... seems less like revelation and more like outside social influence now doesn't it?

Though by that logic, the church should soon be accepting the Starbuckification of America too!

[peter_mary]

Though by that logic, the church should soon be accepting the Starbuckification of America too!

Anyone who reads my posts or creative writings know that I am not at ALL bashful when it comes to making up words (or creative spellings or useage...much to dogzilla's utter mortification). But "Starbuckification" is one of the BEST newly invented words I've heard in a month of Sundays!

Hey everybody! I've been Starbuckified! And I vote! :D

Peter_Mary

[helemon]

Though by that logic, the church should soon be accepting the Starbuckification of America too!
As long as you ask for the decaf latte! :D
http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2004/11/principles_vs_r.html

According to Lester Bush in _Health and Medicine Among the Latter-day Saints_, p.59:

"...Widtsoe and, subsequently, the First Presidency also advised inquirers that the use of decaffeinated drinks (including "97 percent caffeine-free" coffee) was NOT in violation of the Word of Wisdom. Remarkably, this latter guidance, provided repeatedly by the First Presidency from the 1940s to the present, has yet to be officially published."

There's a record of the First Presidency under David O. McKay okaying decaf:

http://www.sas.upenn.edu/~dbowie/dispute/caffltr.html

A religion professor at Ricks also quotes the First Presidency under Joseph Fielding Smith (1971):

" In reference to the Church's attitude regarding Sanka coffee.
The use of a beverage from which the deleterious ingredients have been removed would not be considered as breaking the Word of Wisdom. However, in all cases it is well to avoid the appearance of evil by refraining from the use of drinks which have the appearance, the smell, and the taste of that which we have been counseled not to use. However, temple recommends should not be denied to those drinking Sanka or the cola drinks.

(First Presidency, Joseph Fielding Smith, Harold B. Lee, N. Eldon Tanner, Dec. 3, 1971.)"

[Born Free]

Hey, from across the cafe, who can tell whether you are drinking a hot chocolate?

"However, in all cases it is well to avoid the appearance of evil by refraining from the use of drinks which have the appearance, the smell, and the taste of that which we have been counseled not to use. However, temple recommends should not be denied to those drinking Sanka or the cola drinks."

I don't know about you but I am not in the habit of letting people smell and taste-test my drinks! :eek:

WTF?

Daryl

PS: How does that work?

Looks like evil!
Smells like evil!
Tastes like evil!
Sure glad I didn't do evil! Whew.

[helemon]

Hey, from across the cafe, who can tell whether you are drinking a hot chocolate?


Just follow the lead of J. Golden Kimball and mix coffee into your hot chocolate!

http://users.mdonline.net/wabei/kimball/golden16.htm
[Travelling to a conference with new DSSU superintendent David McKay one winter day] Finally about 8:00 in the morning, they got to Brigham City. It was cold, and Uncle Golden was frozen right to the bone. . . . He turned to Brother McKay and said, "Why don't we go over and have a little breakfast; we've got an hour, and it's not fast Sunday." Brother McKay thought it a marvelous idea.

When they went into the restaurant, no one else was there. The waitress came up to their table and said, "What could I get for you two gentlemen?" According to Uncle Golden, Brother McKay blurted out, "Well, we'll have some ham and eggs and two cups of hot chocolate, please." Uncle Golden almost died; this wasn't what he had in mind at all.

But after a few minutes, an idea came to him. He excused himself, saying he needed to go to the men's room. Golden then walked back into the kitchen and grabbed that waitress and said, "Say, would you mind putting a little coffee in my hot chocolate, please?" She said no, she wouldn't mind at all; they did that kind of thing all the time up in Brigham City.

Golden washed his hands and went back to the table and sat down. In a few minutes, the waitress came with the ham and eggs and the hot chocolate. When she got up to the table, she looked at both men and said, "Now, which one of you wanted coffee in his hot chocolate?" Flustered, Uncle Golden looked at her and said, "Ah, hell, put it in both of them."

The other stories on the page are pretty good too.

[why me]

Sometimes when I have reread these threads I feel that postmo's find liberation in breaking the word of wisdom. What is liberating about drinking a cup of coffee or having a beer? What does it mean to be truly liberated? Certainly the word of wisdom is not a bad code to live by. Although I must confess, I don't know all the particulars, except the basics. But is it really so liberating to walk into starbucks and say "I'll have a cup of your strongest cafe latte please". I never drank hard liquor or had a glass of wine...but I did have a few sips of beer when I was 7 or 8 years old. But beer makes you piss a lot and it gives you a beer belly. And too much alcohol gives you a hangover with a mouth fill of cotton and a tremendous headache. And to have a smoke can give you a smelly breath. Where is the liberation? But I suppose with moderation it can be enjoyable... :) I am not being judgemental here...but I can not understand the liberatory act in and of itself. But I suppose that it can help me get a few dates with some non-mormons...I am sure there have been the beginnings of many wonderful relationships by sipping a starbucks finest with a soon to be special someone....

[mutleydog]

I am amazed at the GALLONS of Mountain Dew and Diet Coke I watch members consume, and yet no one bats an eye. My dentist tells me that Mt. Dew is THE WORST THING for teeth, and anyone in the health field, alternative or modern, will tell you that soda pop has tons of good reasons not to consume it, while coffee, tea or red wine are far better.

Way to go! Was gonna mention this myself! I read in the National Geographic recently that MDew has the equivalent of 2 X expresso coffee's of caffiene in one can! And large one has much much more!

[mutleydog]

Sometimes when I have reread these threads I feel that postmo's find liberation in breaking the word of wisdom. What is liberating about drinking a cup of coffee or having a beer? What does it mean to be truly liberated? Certainly the word of wisdom is not a bad code to live by. Although I must confess, I don't know all the particulars, except the basics. But is it really so liberating to walk into starbucks and say "I'll have a cup of your strongest cafe latte please". I never drank hard liquor or had a glass of wine...but I did have a few sips of beer when I was 7 or 8 years old. But beer makes you piss a lot and it gives you a beer belly. And too much alcohol gives you a hangover with a mouth fill of cotton and a tremendous headache. And to have a smoke can give you a smelly breath. Where is the liberation? But I suppose with moderation it can be enjoyable... :) I am not being judgemental here...but I can not understand the liberatory act in and of itself. But I suppose that it can help me get a few dates with some non-mormons...I am sure there have been the beginnings of many wonderful relationships by sipping a starbucks finest with a soon to be special someone....

For me it boiled down to the whole 'freedom of choice' thing. While in mormonism you are taught that by keeping the standards of the church etc. you will always keep your freedom of choice. Now I see it as a topsy turvey way of thinking. Basically, you have no freedom of choice. I remember walking into Costa Coffee after leaving the church - man! the freedome of choice I had was fantastic.....expresso's, lattes, frescatos, american....not just juice or hot chocolate. It was the same when I walked into a pub as a post-mo. I believe I am more liberated and free to choose than I have ever been. I choose if I want coffee or not; if I want an alcoholic beverage or not; I choose if I want to smoke etc. It is a fine line, but I am not bound to any of them or anyone.......that is liberation! I am my own person, making my own choices, accepting the consequences, good or bad. Everything in moderation!!

As a side note.......I have lost a lot of weight since leaving the church.....could there be a connection?!!

[formermormon]

PM, thanks for the props on my neologism. It seems from Helamon's post that another is in order. Apparently, the FP in the past has "Sankafied" certain low-caff. bevs. :D

Is O'Doul's Sankafied?

[dancinfree]

Sometimes when I have reread these threads I feel that postmo's find liberation in breaking the word of wisdom. What is liberating about drinking a cup of coffee or having a beer? What does it mean to be truly liberated? Certainly the word of wisdom is not a bad code to live by. Although I must confess, I don't know all the particulars, except the basics. But is it really so liberating to walk into starbucks and say "I'll have a cup of your strongest cafe latte please". I never drank hard liquor or had a glass of wine...but I did have a few sips of beer when I was 7 or 8 years old. But beer makes you piss a lot and it gives you a beer belly. And too much alcohol gives you a hangover with a mouth fill of cotton and a tremendous headache. And to have a smoke can give you a smelly breath. Where is the liberation? But I suppose with moderation it can be enjoyable... :) I am not being judgemental here...but I can not understand the liberatory act in and of itself. But I suppose that it can help me get a few dates with some non-mormons...I am sure there have been the beginnings of many wonderful relationships by sipping a starbucks finest with a soon to be special someone....

When I finally released myself from guilt and fear and realized that I could believe in whatever God inspired me with love and acceptance then the "Church's" WOW was exchanged for true choice for me..not FEAR. I finally was free to make a choice for myself, not some fear based belief system . I could decide by experience what worked for me or not. For me, moderation and balance is the key for me and only I decide what that looks like and I trust that you beautiful people will and can do the same. In this, I have a found a beautiful peace instead of some frightened state of being.

The beautiful thing about having a cup of coffee or drinking a glass of wine or trying anything new is the beauty of the CHOICE w/o somebody else's voice yelling at me in FEAR. I fired my old God and I fired the Church from having that power over me any longer. I am in charge of my experiences, my definitions and my judgements...I hold the responsibility..not anything outside of me and in that...I have found freedom to find my own boundaries...my own definitions...my own balance..my own moderation...my peace. No greater joy have I found then this.

[dogzilla]

Anyone who reads my posts or creative writings know that I am not at ALL bashful when it comes to making up words (or creative spellings or useage...much to dogzilla's utter mortification). But "Starbuckification" is one of the BEST newly invented words I've heard in a month of Sundays!

Hey everybody! I've been Starbuckified! And I vote! :D

Peter_Mary

Honestly, I love inventing new words and new usages for the tired old words. It's the creative spelling that makes me gnash my teeth. :rolleyes:

[shamdiel]

But of course to Mormons, anything that could be bad with overindulgence has too much potential to be addictive, and should not even be considered, not even a little bit.
What is more addictive than refined sugar? Or more abbused by MOS? My mother was diabetic and died at age 69 from complications of the disease. She was about 200 pounds overweight and, of course, was an active member with a Temple recommend. After she died the family found candy stashes everywhere in the house. She had been forbidden from candy by her docotor. Funny though; she thought my Brother-in-law would be so wonderful if he would just quit smoking and drinking coffee. Let's face it, the Word of Wisdom is less about health and 1000 times more about control. This is true of most, if not all, commandments, in all religions, and the main reason why so many are giving up on these kinds of mind and body controlling institutions.

[why me]

When I finally released myself from guilt and fear and realized that I could believe in whatever God inspired me with love and acceptance then the "Church's" WOW was exchanged for true choice for me..not FEAR. I finally was free to make a choice for myself, not some fear based belief system . I could decide by experience what worked for me or not. For me, moderation and balance is the key for me and only I decide what that looks like and I trust that you beautiful people will and can do the same. In this, I have a found a beautiful peace instead of some frightened state of being.

The beautiful thing about having a cup of coffee or drinking a glass of wine or trying anything new is the beauty of the CHOICE w/o somebody else's voice yelling at me in FEAR. I fired my old God and I fired the Church from having that power over me any longer. I am in charge of my experiences, my definitions and my judgements...I hold the responsibility..not anything outside of me and in that...I have found freedom to find my own boundaries...my own definitions...my own balance..my own moderation...my peace. No greater joy have I found then this.


I understand your concept of freedom of choice. But there is something not right with it; it is just that I cannot figure out where the logic might not work. A French philosopher said: "Man is born free but everywhere he is in chains". I can't spell his name at this moment but I will give it a try---Rousseau said this in his book on the social contract. What is freedom of choice? And can someone ever escape the chains that he or she is born with based on his or her own individual social conditioning? Freedom of choice is curtailed by laws and regulations. And I think that the concept of freedom of choice fits into this whole free agency thing. Am I free? No I don't think so. I chose Marxism and socialism and I was certainly free to do so. But that choice came at a price and prevented me from getting government work or jobs. Free choice can have consequences and not everyone can handle such freedoms of choice. Can we ever really break the chains that bind us regardless of how free we are to make individual choices? And how to control the freedoms when these freedoms are leading some of us humans to destruction? :)

[aether]

Can we ever really break the chains that bind us regardless of how free we are to make individual choices? And how to control the freedoms when these freedoms are leading some of us humans to destruction?

I'm sorry Why Me, but what does this have to do with anything? You asked the question of why people feel liberated when they break the word of wisdom. Why does everything suddenly turn into a treatise of how society is plunging into evil and darkness?

[dancinfree]

I understand your concept of freedom of choice. But there is something not right with it; it is just that I cannot figure out where the logic might not work. A French philosopher said: "Man is born free but everywhere he is in chains". I can't spell his name at this moment but I will give it a try---Rousseau said this in his book on the social contract. What is freedom of choice? And can someone ever escape the chains that he or she is born with based on his or her own individual social conditioning? Freedom of choice is curtailed by laws and regulations. And I think that the concept of freedom of choice fits into this whole free agency thing. Am I free? No I don't think so. I chose Marxism and socialism and I was certainly free to do so. But that choice came at a price and prevented me from getting government work or jobs. Free choice can have consequences and not everyone can handle such freedoms of choice. Can we ever really break the chains that bind us regardless of how free we are to make individual choices? And how to control the freedoms when these freedoms are leading some of us humans to destruction? :)

Aether,

I was the one who started the freedom of choice path with Why me..sorry if that's annoying but it was such a fun topic to jump on.. I will now take my slaps.. :slap:

Why me..this is so great! First of all, I'm not trying to convince you that I am "right" in my way of thinking and being..I gave that up a long time ago but I see how you are trying to understand it for you.

So much of my choices are bound on my environment, upbringing, country and my own perspectives but I see that I have a choice in almost anything really, if I allow myself to think outside the box of fear and allow myself to risk. I never said there was not consequences to my choices but at least I get to make them. I have the freedom to choose but I cannot choose how society or other individuals react to my choosing...that is their choice...isin't this glorious?

Laws and enforcement do not stop me from making choices if I don't choose them to. I can do and say whatever I choose..I can stop paying taxes, I can rob a bank, I can use illegal drugs..I can drink and drive..I can cheat, steal, love, serve, beg..and god forbid, I can even drink coffee or have some wine, all in the name of choice ...if I allow myself to be curtailed then it comes from within me and again..my Choice to do so.

You mention that some can't handle the freedom to choose because they can't handle the consequences...who is the judge of that? We have therapy..we have jails...we have addiction centers..we have services...we have churches...we have educational institutions..we have hospitals...we have internet sites :D ...societies try to enforce "safe" parameters for choice but the freedom is always there. Granted, some freedoms are taken away due to ineffective choices

If my choice is to destroy myself..then so be it. I have issue when others choose to destroy me and my right to choose..then I choose to take a stand for MY right to choose...if there are others who don't want that right to choose then that's fine for them and they can stay at the level that they are at but that doesn't work for me and my desire to choose...safety be damned! Can I break the chains that bind me...well, that's what I'm here for...finding what chains I choose to keep and what chains I choose to let go but in the end it's up to ME.

[peter_mary]

Laws and enforcement do not stop me from making choices if I don't choose them to. I can do and say whatever I choose..I can stop paying taxes, I can rob a bank, I can use illegal drugs..I can drink and drive..I can cheat, steal, love, serve, beg..and god forbid, I can even drink coffee or have some wine, all in the name of choice ...if I allow myself to be curtailed then it comes from within me and again..my Choice to do so.

If my choice is to destroy myself..then so be it. I have issue when others choose to destroy me and my right to choose..then I choose to take a stand for MY right to choose...if there are others who don't want that right to choose then that's fine for them and they can stay at the level that they are at but that doesn't work for me and my desire to choose...safety be damned! Can I break the chains that bind me...well, that's what I'm here for...finding what chains I choose to keep and what chains I choose to let go but in the end it's up to ME.

This is the heart of the "liberty" issue for me...thanks, Dancinfree.

If I am correct in understanding your position, you're saying (and I'm agreeing...) that what is at issue is WHERE the control center is located. Am I in control of my choices, choosing a path that is skillful and learning from the ones that are not, or do I place that control on an outside authority, namely the Church or the Government?

See, when I was a believer, I didn't drink alcohol because I was told God didn't want me to. I was afraid of the outer consequences, i.e. condemnation from my Church and my God. Now, on the outside, I don't drink because a) I don't like it, and b) I don't choose to accept the associated physical and mental risks associated with it. But it comes from a carefully thought-out position that is buried deep within my own psyche, and not imposed on me from the outside.

On the other hand, I DO choose to enjoy a coffee beverage because a) I DO like it, and b) I DO accept any physical and mental risks (if there are any). Again, the choice comes from my own personally developed value system, rather than a value system imposed upon me from without.

And that's the difference.

The same can be said for obeying the laws o' the land. I choose to drive the speed limit, pay my taxes, and resist the temptation to kill people like dogzilla's blind-but-still-hitched-date (bada-bing!) because a) I wish to be a socially responsible citizen, and b) I don't choose to accept the risks of noncompliance. But it's not out of fear of someone standing over me with a stick. It's a choice made from a deeply considered, carefully weighed value structure that I OWN. It's mine. I can name it, I can explain it, I know its ins and outs, its quirks and idiosyncracies, and I know how to live it because it belongs to me.

My old value system belonged to someone else, and I just tried to follow it. I relinquished my freedom to choose when I simply agreed to submit to someone else's system. My new value system often overlaps my old...sometimes almost completely, others not even closely.

I took that locus of control back, and placed the responsibilty for my choices squarely on my own shoulders, where it belongs...and I feel enormously liberated for having done so.

Peter_Mary

[formermormon]

Peter Mary-

I just had to say - well put! Isn't it so much more meaningful to stick to boundaries of your own choosing - that you have worked out for yourself through reason and experience! I second your post, emphatically. I think it is at the heart of the struggles of many of the people on this forum.

[dancinfree]

This is the heart of the "liberty" issue for me...thanks, Dancinfree.

If I am correct in understanding your position, you're saying (and I'm agreeing...) that what is at issue is WHERE the control center is located. Am I in control of my choices, choosing a path that is skillful and learning from the ones that are not, or do I place that control on an outside authority, namely the Church or the Government?

See, when I was a believer, I didn't drink alcohol because I was told God didn't want me to. I was afraid of the outer consequences, i.e. condemnation from my Church and my God. Now, on the outside, I don't drink because a) I don't like it, and b) I don't choose to accept the associated physical and mental risks associated with it. But it comes from a carefully thought-out position that is buried deep within my own psyche, and not imposed on me from the outside.

On the other hand, I DO choose to enjoy a coffee beverage because a) I DO like it, and b) I DO accept any physical and mental risks (if there are any). Again, the choice comes from my own personally developed value system, rather than a value system imposed upon me from without.

And that's the difference.

The same can be said for obeying the laws o' the land. I choose to drive the speed limit, pay my taxes, and resist the temptation to kill people like dogzilla's blind-but-still-hitched-date (bada-bing!) because a) I wish to be a socially responsible citizen, and b) I don't choose to accept the risks of noncompliance. But it's not out of fear of someone standing over me with a stick. It's a choice made from a deeply considered, carefully weighed value structure that I OWN. It's mine. I can name it, I can explain it, I know its ins and outs, its quirks and idiosyncracies, and I know how to live it because it belongs to me.

My old value system belonged to someone else, and I just tried to follow it. I relinquished my freedom to choose when I simply agreed to submit to someone else's system. My new value system often overlaps my old...sometimes almost completely, others not even closely.

I took that locus of control back, and placed the responsibilty for my choices squarely on my own shoulders, where it belongs...and I feel enormously liberated for having done so.

Peter_Mary

Peter_Mary..it's so nice to be understood. You "get" what I'm saying and for that I give you a big YEEHAWW!! Nice to know I'm not completely blowin in the wind here. That being said, it's nice to have someone agree with me but I also appreciate those who do not agree..that makes up the spice of life my friends!!

[why me]

Aether,

I was the one who started the freedom of choice path with Why me..sorry if that's annoying but it was such a fun topic to jump on.. I will now take my slaps.. :slap:

Why me..this is so great! First of all, I'm not trying to convince you that I am "right" in my way of thinking and being..I gave that up a long time ago but I see how you are trying to understand it for you.

So much of my choices are bound on my environment, upbringing, country and my own perspectives but I see that I have a choice in almost anything really, if I allow myself to think outside the box of fear and allow myself to risk. I never said there was not consequences to my choices but at least I get to make them. I have the freedom to choose but I cannot choose how society or other individuals react to my choosing...that is their choice...isin't this glorious?

Laws and enforcement do not stop me from making choices if I don't choose them to. I can do and say whatever I choose..I can stop paying taxes, I can rob a bank, I can use illegal drugs..I can drink and drive..I can cheat, steal, love, serve, beg..and god forbid, I can even drink coffee or have some wine, all in the name of choice ...if I allow myself to be curtailed then it comes from within me and again..my Choice to do so.

You mention that some can't handle the freedom to choose because they can't handle the consequences...who is the judge of that? We have therapy..we have jails...we have addiction centers..we have services...we have churches...we have educational institutions..we have hospitals...we have internet sites :D ...societies try to enforce "safe" parameters for choice but the freedom is always there. Granted, some freedoms are taken away due to ineffective choices

If my choice is to destroy myself..then so be it. I have issue when others choose to destroy me and my right to choose..then I choose to take a stand for MY right to choose...if there are others who don't want that right to choose then that's fine for them and they can stay at the level that they are at but that doesn't work for me and my desire to choose...safety be damned! Can I break the chains that bind me...well, that's what I'm here for...finding what chains I choose to keep and what chains I choose to let go but in the end it's up to ME.

You have very interesting thoughts but I am not in agreement with you on some points. At times I think that this freedom thing is a very individualized topic for you. It is centered in your own ability to make decisions for yourself. I can't find anything wrong with this but then you are rather smart with a good head on your shoulders. You have good reasoning abilities and a critical mind to guide you. But, and I don't want to sound elitist here, but the population is not so gifted---the population is being breed on a numb and dumb media structure---a shopping bag mentality has entered into the hearts, minds and souls of the human being. Are we as a population making good and informed choices? Perhaps not. If we were, we would not be in mountains of debt and inflicted with so many addictions. Walter Benjamin claimed that the masses were a bewildered herd and I think that he had a point here. The masses are bewildered and if they are bewildered can they make 'good' choices? Perhaps not. Look at the mentality leading up to the Iraq War. 99 percent of the population were behind the war. Why? They followed the military and political elite straight into falsehood. The poor anti-war protestors were showed with hate and scorn. Fox news, NBC and all the rest fed a patriotic lie to the bewildered masses and the masses believed it. Whose fault is that? Can we make informed choices today? Do we have the ability to critically reflect are way through life or are we a bewildered herd? Now that is the question...Thanks dancinfree for your comments...I appreciate them and I also appreciate all your posts...take care... :)

[silverfox]

As a TBM I never saw an issue with drinking alcohol or caffiene or anything else. AS LONG AS IT IS DONE IN MODERATION.

Now, as a TBM I did NOT break the WoW because I was being obedient to the church's commandments. No other reason. It was all about being obedient. I used to question the WoW with leaders and was told to just be obedient. And I was.

Now as a post mo I enjoy a drink now and then. I have a couple drinks in social gatherings. I don't do it to feel liberated. Or to get drunk. I do it because I see nothing wrong with it as long as I use responsibility and common sense.

I don't do it to feel rebellious. I don't do it for any other reason than I don't see anything wrong with enjoying a drink or two with friends.

As a middle aged high strung energetic full time working mamma and gramma, I find it relaxing.

I always fiind it interesting that TBMs believe apostates fall away just so they can drink. Hell, now that I am an apostate I am AMAZED at how many "TBMs" sit in church and are closet drinkers. One doesn't have to leave the church to do what they want. They just learn to be posers.

[dancinfree]

You have very interesting thoughts but I am not in agreement with you on some points. At times I think that this freedom thing is a very individualized topic for you. It is centered in your own ability to make decisions for yourself. I can't find anything wrong with this but then you are rather smart with a good head on your shoulders. You have good reasoning abilities and a critical mind to guide you. But, and I don't want to sound elitist here, but the population is not so gifted---the population is being breed on a numb and dumb media structure---a shopping bag mentality has entered into the hearts, minds and souls of the human being. Are we as a population making good and informed choices? Perhaps not. If we were, we would not be in mountains of debt and inflicted with so many addictions. Walter Benjamin claimed that the masses were a bewildered herd and I think that he had a point here. The masses are bewildered and if they are bewildered can they make 'good' choices? Perhaps not. Look at the mentality leading up to the Iraq War. 99 percent of the population were behind the war. Why? They followed the military and political elite straight into falsehood. The poor anti-war protestors were showed with hate and scorn. Fox news, NBC and all the rest fed a patriotic lie to the bewildered masses and the masses believed it. Whose fault is that? Can we make informed choices today? Do we have the ability to critically reflect are way through life or are we a bewildered herd? Now that is the question...Thanks dancinfree for your comments...I appreciate them and I also appreciate all your posts...take care... :)

Hi Why me,

I think I've said all that I can about this..we come from different definitions of "freedom" and "choice". That is the beauty of the human race...we are all different and perspectives are different..our realities are even different. I maintain that each day we all try to live a more effective life..a higher level. I believe in the human spirit and it's strive to become more divine in our choices. I share with you this beautiful earth and I value all that you have to offer. Thank you for your thoughts and insights.

[why me]

Hi Why me,

I think I've said all that I can about this..we come from different definitions of "freedom" and "choice". That is the beauty of the human race...we are all different and perspectives are different..our realities are even different. I maintain that each day we all try to live a more effective life..a higher level. I believe in the human spirit and it's strive to become more divine in our choices. I share with you this beautiful earth and I value all that you have to offer. Thank you for your thoughts and insights.

I just posted something similiar on a different thread to you. Perhaps it was the 'does evil exist thread'. You and I need to be in the same class...the lecturer would go nuts handling our differing opinions with eachother. The class dicussion would certainly be exciting...never a dull moment. Do you have such a rapport with your husband? Or with Bigeddy? Take care out there in Utah...

[dancinfree]

I just posted something similiar on a different thread to you. Perhaps it was the 'does evil exist thread'. You and I need to be in the same class...the lecturer would go nuts handling our differing opinions with eachother. The class dicussion would certainly be exciting...never a dull moment. Do you have such a rapport with your husband? Or with Bigeddy? Take care out there in Utah...

Hi Why me,

I just read your other posts..this is great..seems we're posting at the same time...fun stuff!! It would truly be a great class to attend..wish you were here. I have had many indepth discussions with my husband on this matter. He is a very logic minded individual..almost frightening at times but it's been great. He has taught me the value of reasoning and I add in the value of emotion and passion...it seems to balance pretty good.

We actually agree on most points political...it's the emotional side where we find areas to strengthen our growth. So anything that has a debate edge to it, I owe to his example. If I could have my wish, I would love to yap and yap for hours with Bigeddy. He is a dear friend and I can talk to him about anything...it's great!! I hope you have close friends of which you can "get it all over them" every now and then. Keeps life exciting and real!!

Thanks again..we might not agree on everything but I don't want more friends that agree with me..I want friends that are free to "be" all that they are. Enjoy your day!! :)