Something to push against

[aether]

This little problem has been weighing on my mind for quite some time now, enhanced by memories of where I was this same time last year.

What started almost four years ago when I was 15 and then seemed to slow to a stop when I graduated high school felt like, to me, a spiritual awakening. This awakening was fueled directly by the church. I was pushing away from it, and in response I was moving in an opposite direction, a direction that I liked.

But I feel for the most part that that movement has stopped. As soon as I moved away from home - first to Japan, then to Logan and college, there was no dominant church anymore to push me in any direction. Of course, I still love complaining about the church, and I get into theological debates with TBM acquaintances as often as I can, but the church is simply not a part of my life.

As a result, I feel like I'm at a standstill. I am still reading just as much philosophy and theology as before, but there's no driving force. My beliefs aren't molding or changes, and I'm just not going anywhere with it. Is it bad that I feel like I have to be fighting a battle to get anywhere spiritually? Has anyone else felt this? What are your guys' thoughts?

[peter_mary]

This little problem has been weighing on my mind for quite some time now, enhanced by memories of where I was this same time last year.

What started almost four years ago when I was 15 and then seemed to slow to a stop when I graduated high school felt like, to me, a spiritual awakening. This awakening was fueled directly by the church. I was pushing away from it, and in response I was moving in an opposite direction, a direction that I liked.

But I feel for the most part that that movement has stopped. As soon as I moved away from home - first to Japan, then to Logan and college, there was no dominant church anymore to push me in any direction. Of course, I still love complaining about the church, and I get into theological debates with TBM acquaintances as often as I can, but the church is simply not a part of my life.

As a result, I feel like I'm at a standstill. I am still reading just as much philosophy and theology as before, but there's no driving force. My beliefs aren't molding or changes, and I'm just not going anywhere with it. Is it bad that I feel like I have to be fighting a battle to get anywhere spiritually? Has anyone else felt this? What are your guys' thoughts?

Misha,

Thanks for this...

I'm hoping flotsam engages you on this one, because I know he shares some of those same feelings regarding the Church providing at LEAST something to strain against.

I'll tell you what I did early on that was essential to my "moving forward" in a new spiritual direction (betcha never thought a TBA (True Blue Athiest) would have spiritual leanings, eh?) I began writing my thoughts and insights down in a little notebook I kept with me at all times. Anytime I had an insight, I would start writing, until I filled a 300 page spiral notebook. Then I sat down at the computer and typed the whole thing up, with an introduction and a conclusion. The result was a book that I made for myself, and which I gave a copy of to my mom. What it did was chart my journey. Ironically, I wasn't even aware I was headed out of the Church when I started the notebook. Early writings kept trying to fit new discoveries into old paradigms. Eventually, I could see the breakthrough. Much of what I was thinking then I don't think anymore. But it charted my journey.

Anyway, the reason it was useful is the same reason this website remains useful...by writing down my thoughts, I find I bring structure, and often new insights to otherwise amorphous thoughts.

The other thing I do is talk with friends (like you!) who are on a similar journey. I look for the challenges intellectually, and try to watch for where my own biases and paradigms try to slam shut against what someone else is saying. When I see that, I know I've got some new exploring to do.

The end result is not an end at all, but rather the awareness of the process I'm engaged in. It's an awareness that there will never be an end to my searching, to my exploring, to my wondering (I titled my book, "Musings of a Wondering Soul") And recognizing that the journey IS the goal, I am at peace knowing that the goal has been, and is being, and will hopefully forever be achieved! I no longer worry about falling short of the goal...I'm already there! (Now, if I can just 'endure to the end'... :eek: )

Anyway, I realize that may not be useful in your situation, but it was and continues to be a very useful endeavor for me...

Peter_Mary

[Born Free]

<snip>
As a result, I feel like I'm at a standstill. I am still reading just as much philosophy and theology as before, but there's no driving force. My beliefs aren't molding or changes, and I'm just not going anywhere with it. Is it bad that I feel like I have to be fighting a battle to get anywhere spiritually? Has anyone else felt this? What are your guys' thoughts?
aether,

That sounds like a stage of identifying what you did not like, so the 'no' phase. That was merely a stage of identifying what was in your face that did not resonate.

One possibility is that you now are at a phase where you have to exert more effort and go actively looking for what you do like: the 'yes' phase.

I suspect it is simplistic to say that the 'yes' phase follows the 'no' phase, that they are actually always there. But I suspect you are now at a place where you have to go actively persuing new ideas, new stimulus, some of which you will say 'yes' to and some will be be 'no', but you will be driving the search.

Once you get the hang of it, boredom will not be an issue.

That said, I believe that all growth has spurts followed by integration stages.

That is my experience. I hope it is of some value.

On the question 'Is it bad....?' I suspect that Mormonism is like Judeaism in that you get so used to feeling like you are on the outside, the one who does not fit, that when that role is removed, you feel a bit disoriented. I have identified some elements of that and was discussing it with a part-Jewish friend just 2 days ago. (That is another thread I suspect!)

Daryl

[why me]

I would not spend too much time worrying about your 'standstill' that is now shaping your life. You see aether, as I said before when I was 18 I knew nothing about life. Oh I had my high school education and I was just starting out on my journey, but I was certainly no philosopher. You are definitely lightyears ahead of me at that age in which you are now. I was just beginning. You are perhaps now at a stage where you are again trying to discover a different aspect of who you are. A year ago you had the church as your source of intellect and dialectic. It was your 'contradiction' that guided your intellectual development. At 19 years of age, it was my Marxism which guided my inner and outer intellectual development. It was my birth intoknowledge. It was my dialectic---a marxist living in the heart of capitalism.
Maybe at this moment you are just gathering inner knowledge through reading and reflection. You are storing up your intellectual armor for the next challenge, for your next path of development. Maybe you are in search for the needed dialectic to spur you on in struggle for a better you and for a better world. Enjoy the rest while you can...something is out there waiting for you...something good and something that needs your insight and intellect..... :) but keep reading and reflecting on the sentences that you read...And yes your beliefs are molding because you are still here trying to figure out the new thoughts and insights that you now have.....

[meinmachine]

I don’t' mean to be offensive, because I really do believe that we all have to choose how to live our lives, and if spirituality to you is worthwhile, then go for it. However, I think to replace mormism with another "ism" is a mistake.

Spirituality is man's attempt to find meaning and relevance in a universe that seems indifferent to our existence. It seems indifferent, because it is! To attempt to find some connection to a larger meaning seems unlikely. I think it is a better idea to see the wonders of nature, the glory of science and the beauty of humanity. To pursue the truth as best as our limited intellects can perceive it, is the worthy endeavor. The truth will be found in science, not religion. Philosophy can be of use, providing it guides us past our hubris and discipline our intellect.

I tried to find other spiritual paths after mo'ism, but I found them wanting and of no real value. In science and truth I have found serenity and confidence. I hope you can find the same.

[dogzilla]

Here's another thought, with a sort of Buddhist bent: maybe it's okay. Perhaps you need a spiritual "rest." Accept and then embrace the "nothingness" because it's nothing to be afraid of and it's not a bad thing. I've felt this way before too, and you have to recognize that spirituality is a journey but sometimes sitting still is part of the journey. That's okay. Perhaps there's no tension in your life to cause forward movement. There will be, grasshopper! Just be patient and think about this: what is the sound of one hand clapping?

[Born Free]

I don’t' mean to be offensive, because I really do believe that we all have to choose how to live our lives, and if spirituality to you is worthwhile, then go for it. However, I think to replace mormism with another "ism" is a mistake.

Spirituality is man's attempt to find meaning and relevance in a universe that seems indifferent to our existence. It seems indifferent, because it is! To attempt to find some connection to a larger meaning seems unlikely. I think it is a better idea to see the wonders of nature, the glory of science and the beauty of humanity.

<snip>

I tried to find other spiritual paths after mo'ism, but I found them wanting and of no real value. In science and truth I have found serenity and confidence. I hope you can find the same.
meinmachine,

I gather the reference here to an 'ism' is to spirituality?

Are you aware that many people regard 'spirituality' as the process of creating meaning (in contrast with finding), and others, including Nietzsche, regarded a deep connection with humanity, music and nature as secular spirituality.

I like that idea, which means reclaiming spirituality from religion, which largely wouldn't know it if they fell across it.

Have a look at the excellent thread from months ago:

http://www.postmormon.org/forum_vb/showthread.php?t=87

Daryl

[aether]

Thank you all for your thoughts and advice. I'm somewhat more at peace with it all.

I tried to find other spiritual paths after mo'ism, but I found them wanting and of no real value. In science and truth I have found serenity and confidence. I hope you can find the same.

Just to clarify, I'm not searching for a religion. I'm searching for personal beliefs to guide my life and my emotional growth. Also, if you've read any of my other posts about my spirituality, you'd know of the spiritual revelations I've gotten from science itself. I only believed in God after I took some in-depth science classes. There's no worries that I'm going to deny science in the face of religion.

Here's another thought, with a sort of Buddhist bent: maybe it's okay. Perhaps you need a spiritual "rest." Accept and then embrace the "nothingness" because it's nothing to be afraid of and it's not a bad thing. I've felt this way before too, and you have to recognize that spirituality is a journey but sometimes sitting still is part of the journey. That's okay. Perhaps there's no tension in your life to cause forward movement. There will be, grasshopper! Just be patient and think about this: what is the sound of one hand clapping?

LOL, thank you Dogzilla, your post makes absolute sense. Especially the thought at the end. Strange, getting Zen advice from a Wiccan. ^_^

I think you're all right in that I need to be patient with myself and accept where I am. Thanks again!

[dogzilla]

I know, but I studied Buddhism before I studied Wicca. There was only one minor point that made me reject Buddhism but I completely forget what it was. I guess it's the whole higher-power male deity thing, while Wicca is more in line with my belief system in terms of an earth-based "higher" power that's part of all of us instead of being superior to all of us.

In reference to your comments to meinmachine, think about the differences between spirituality and religion. The words are not synomous.

[dogzilla]

Sorry, I've lost my mind today. (I'm out of balance. I can't spell when I'm waiting for a boy to contact me. ;) )

synonymous

[aether]

I know, but I studied Buddhism before I studied Wicca. There was only one minor point that made me reject Buddhism but I completely forget what it was. I guess it's the whole higher-power male deity thing, while Wicca is more in line with my belief system in terms of an earth-based "higher" power that's part of all of us instead of being superior to all of us.

Really? From what I know of Buddhism.. I mean yes the Buddha himself is supposed to be male, but the true higher power is the all-encompassing existence, the vast everything that we become one with when we reach nirvana. Yes? No? I don't know much about it.

In reference to your comments to meinmachine, think about the differences between spirituality and religion. The words are not synomous.

Yeah that's what I was saying. I'm not looking for relgiion, I'm looking for spirituality. Did I say it wrong? I knew I needed to work on my communication skills.

[dogzilla]

No, I don't think you said it wrong. Meinmachine's post specificallly used the word "spirituality." Your response specifically used the word "religion." Don't sweat it; I'm the only person who's going to nail you on semantics -- it's my business, I can't help it. I parse language all day long. (And yes, my family hates to send me e-mail. They're afraid I'll correct it and send it back! :D )

Okay, so now I've gotta go look up the Buddhism thing to find what turned me off because I don't think you're too far off base... I'll be right back.

[meinmachine]

In reference to your comments to meinmachine, think about the differences between spirituality and religion. The words are not synomous.[/QUOTE]

There is a difference between spirituality and religion. Religion is the codified process of spiritual discovery. I agree there is a difference but we are essentially talking about the same thing. Those who promote religion over spirituality and vise versa have one thing in common; they believe that the universe has hidden truths can be discovered by some means other than the scientific process. I think this is not so. There is no divine being or “energy” that guides people to truth. It must be discovered through the process of the brain and by the means of the scientific method of inquiry.

Now don’t get me wrong, great thinkers throughout the ages, like the Buddha, discovered much about the human condition. Much of his teachings carry weight in modern psychology, but we don’t need to credit his insights to anything other than a careful look into the way humans think.

Some redefine spirituality to mean that it is the subtle part of the brain working to observe the fine patterns that can be found all around us. A process that gives joy and meaning and that reveals the complexities and magnificence of the universe. I am all for this redefinition of spirituality. It is problematic in that this new addition to the definition can confuse the discussion and blend it in with a theistic viewpoint, something I am loath to do.

Most of my close friends and family use religion and or spirituality to find happiness and joy. I support them in their journey. You never know I could be wrong. That is what makes our lives on this blue ball so much fun, the process of discovery. :)

[dogzilla]

Now I came back to this thread to say I couldn't find whatever it was that turned me off from Buddhism in the first place, although it may be the reincarnation thing, now that I've re-read some things.

But this here, gave me pause:

Now don’t get me wrong, great thinkers throughout the ages, like the Buddha, discovered much about the human condition. Much of his teachings carry weight in modern psychology, but we don’t need to credit his insights to anything other than a careful look into the way humans think.

Seriously. Are you implying that you think Buddhism is NOT a religion, or even a spritual path? Do you think it's just a group of philosophical thoughts? I would suggest if you do think that, then you may be very misinformed about Buddhism.

Here's a couple links for anyone who wants to know more. Frankly, I'm about ready to toss out Wicca and go back to Buddhism except for that reincarnation thing.

http://buddhism.about.com/
http://www.ship.edu/~cgboeree/buddhaintro.html
http://www.religioustolerance.org/buddhism.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism (Wikipedia is down today for maintenance but I'm sure this link will work later.)

From my hero and role model:

"Buddhism has the characteristics of what would be expected in a cosmic religion for the future: it transcends a personal God, avoids dogmas and theology; it covers both the natural & spiritual, and it is based on a religious sense aspiring from the experience of all things, natural and spiritual, as a meaningful unity" Albert Einstein

[meinmachine]

Now I came back to this thread to say I couldn't find whatever it was that turned me off from Buddhism in the first place, although it may be the reincarnation thing, now that I've re-read some things.

But this here, gave me pause:


Seriously. Are you implying that you think Buddhism is NOT a religion, or even a spritual path? Do you think it's just a group of philosophical thoughts? I would suggest if you do think that, then you may be very misinformed about Buddhism.

Here's a couple links for anyone who wants to know more. Frankly, I'm about ready to toss out Wicca and go back to Buddhism except for that reincarnation thing.

http://buddhism.about.com/
http://www.ship.edu/~cgboeree/buddhaintro.html
http://www.religioustolerance.org/buddhism.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism (Wikipedia is down today for maintenance but I'm sure this link will work later.)

From my hero and role model:

I think you misunderstand my point. Buddhism is a religion, its good points (truth) come from observing humans, not some divine source. Sorry if there was any confusion.

[flotsam]

Well, my take on this is still evolving. I like to think that I am not very old yet, and that I still have time to think about this some more.

My training in writing has led me to think of life as a series of stories. Some of them are believed to be truth, and some are believed to be false. But in the end, they're all stories. But that's not to denigrate stories. I actually think they're close to the most important thing we have. Because as mein_machine pointed out, religion is a way of making our lives seem coherent in the midst of incoherence. That's just what human do. We make stories.

So, like you, the Mormon story propelled my life. It certainly propelled me for about ten years longer than it did you. I got through a mission and everything. And you know, there's really something to that. I quite miss the feeling of "getting somewhere" that the Mormon story gave me. I mean, it was all laid out: we're here to prove ourselves and we're on our way to our reward, meanwhile, let's build the kingdom. It's very constructive, and can add a lot of structure to one's life. Certainly to mine.

So what I see happening to you Misha is that you've lost the story and no longer see yourself as a character with a mission in life, or a goal. You feel like you're drifting.

There's certainly a precedent for that in mythology. Think of Tristan in his oarless boat. Or Jonah in his whale. Or Odysseus going from storm to shipwreck for 7 years. St. John of the Cross and his long dark night of the soul. Wisdom seems to tell us that life has these kinds of anchorless stretches of life.

But that certainly doesn't make them any easier. I have a hard time falling asleep some nights because I see everything I do as being completely frail and worthless. When I was a TBM I didn't have a hard time with that (unless I wasn't walking the lock step, which occurred quite frequently) though I did have many more nightmares of hiding from the angels that were trying to bring me to the judgment bar.

It's been difficult for me to go from a strong, concrete theology to one that essentially looks like undeveloped land. Some people would call it losing my testimony, I want to call it finding what comes naturally.

But that's my story.

The test of a story, I think, is if it can thrive in difficult times. That's certainly the test of a character in a story. If you think about it, the characters we're interested in are often people without the wherewithal to face the huge complexities that life has thrown at them. Someone who is in over his or her head. The worse things get, the more involved we are. The higher the tension gets the better the plot is.

And see, Mormonism does that very well. Not a Sunday goes by when I don't hear someone telling us that we are engaged in a battle with Satan. Battle imagry is everywhere. Because it's exciting. It makes us feel like our actions have eternal meaning. An excellent story as far as I'm concerned - meaning that it seems to be able to operate for a great many people.

So for the past few years, I've been thinking: The Mormon story doesn't seem to work for me. When I've shed its parameters and demands on my beliefs, I've found myself becoming happier, and, strangely, actually losing some of the vices that Mormonism could seem to root out of me. (In fact, I wonder if the Mormon story didn't drive them in deeper.) I really have no authority to say if the Mormon story is a description of reality. All I can say is, this doesn't seem to work for me. Which sounds totally lame to my TBM friends. You don't just say, "I don't particularly like the truth," as if its a fashion. But that's the way it goes.

I certainly have stronger feelings about not liking Mormonism than I do about not liking a fashion style, mainly because I can see that the structures of Mormonism did some really awful things to my emotional health.

So now I have to find a new story. Or hopefully, create one. And so far the story that has seemed healthiest for me is an openness to pretty much everything. To say to every story, "OK tell me your story. I want to listen." And then try to sit without judgment and see what kinds of things bubble up inside me. :eek: Whoops, that was just some gas. Sorry.

This is different than my Mormon story. My Mormon story said, "Sure I'll listen to your story so that I can build relationships of trust so that I can preach to you and bring you on over to my story." Mormonism's story is way more exclusive than my current, forming story is. In some ways. I still like Joseph Smith's idea of "circumscribing truth into one great whole." To me that means, telling the epic story. Letting it's plots weave in and out, watch powers shift and decisions get made. Etc.

However, I still go to church. And here's one reason maybe why. The tension of the exclusive story and the open story is one that seems to bring up a lot of good ideas in my head. Seeing the Mormon story in full, unapologetic swing - well, it's like being an anthropologist. I see people acting out their culture with no consciousness of an outside viewer to make them question their activities or beliefs. Seeing this, hearing what they say to each other, and remembering the huge impact those ideas used to have on me (and to some extent, still do - I still tremble when a leader gets and up states doctrine unequivocally and with all the authority he believes he has) does a few things to me. First, they often make me angry. And like Anakin Skywalker, anger seems to focus my powers. Second, it increases the tension in my thoughts again. Gives me a dialectic to interact with my own budding philosophy.

It's kind of like linguistic theory, that you don't define things by what they are, but by what they aren't, or what they contrast. If I just muddle around in my own head, I tend to get mired (take this post for example). I need a community to think with.

Admittedly, I'd prefer to think with a community not so dogmatic. But it is very difficult for me to find a community where the people think well and are willing to call me on the times when I do bad thinking. It's hard to find people who will challenge me.

The Mormons, inherently, challenge me. They tell me that most of what I think is wrong, and they have a huge system to back it up. I mean, there's no Church of Flotsam, now is there? So when I go to the Mormons, my beliefs will unfailingly get challenged. Not intellectually, heaven knows that if people only use 10 percent of their brains in normal life, most use a 100th of their brains in church - enough to keep their gross motor skills operational. But they have access to my childhood feelings, a great deal of the passion I’ve felt, and my longing to have a real, meaningful life. They have access to my viscera, and it seems important for it to be played upon to stimulate whatever it is that I’m trying to build independently.

Essentially, it's the structure of the story. A character tries to find meaning against the odds.

It’s kind of like what I saw Gene England go through. He was a Mormon scholar who did a lot of work in Mormon literary criticism. He LOVED the Church. His most famous essay is “Why the Church is as True as the Gospel,” which is quite interesting reading. But he got in trouble every now and then – and I mean from the top. Good old McConkie wrote him a reprimanding letter once. It can be found in the New Mormon Studies CD ROM somewhere in the Sunstone section. It’s one of those letters that fuels the Mormon liberal movement for years. “Your job is to repeat what I say. You are not to do your own exploring publicly.” Stuff like that. Anyway, finally, after writing an essay questioning the idea that polygamy will reign in heaven, Gene was given the boot out of BYU. UVSC took him in, and I worked as his assistant, so I got to hear little things here and there. One of those things was when we were in his office and Gene said to me, “You don’t know what it’s like, hearing the things I heard from men I believe have authority from God.” Apparently he’d been quite hurt by his most recent rounds with the GA’s.

Unbeknownst to anyone, even himself, Gene was dying of cancer at that time. He thought his declining health was a kind of posttraumatic stress syndrome from his experience getting kicked out of BYU and the actions of the GA’s around his dismissal. And you never know, the cancer may have been a manifestation of

The thing that has stuck with me is an image my mind conjured up of Gene on a cross, like Jesus, pulled between his love of the Church and his quest for God. I’m completely not in a position to judge Gene. His life was a complex one, as was his thinking. I have the feeling that he was in a relationship with God somewhat the way Kierkegaard describes the subjective relationship – as being ONLY between you and God. No one outside, not even the prophet, can judge what happens in that relationship. But somehow, it seemed as if that tension was essential to Gene’s spiritual journey. It certainly isn’t essential to everyone’s. But that image of Gene has been a kind of touchstone in my own quest.

To sum up. My story is that life is a series of stories. But that’s a story. Right now, I think my story needs to be an open one. But later, who knows. In storytelling, the classic structure anyway, you throw out some themes, or stories, and then you bring them together to make a new story – Hegel all over the place. Maybe I’ll see that happening someday, that I’ve gathered a critical mass of stories and now need to integrate them. Maybe that’s why I’m into documentary filmmaking. I get the raw stuff of life, and make a story out of it. What fun.

[dogzilla]

I think you misunderstand my point. Buddhism is a religion, its good points (truth) come from observing humans, not some divine source. Sorry if there was any confusion.

Thanks for the clarification. We're cool!

[aether]

Those who promote religion over spirituality and vise versa have one thing in common; they believe that the universe has hidden truths can be discovered by some means other than the scientific process.

Not true. I don't believe that. I believe eventually the parts of myself that I call spiritual will be detected and defined by science. Everything is part of the natural world. God and science can coexist.

And I'm sorry meinmachine, but it seems like your posts here are for no other purpose than to persuade me away from spiritual exploration. I don't like that. I'd like to discover for myself before giving it up based merely on your point of view. Forgive me.

[aether]

Well, my take on this is still evolving. I like to think that I am not very old yet, and that I still have time to think about this some more.

<snip>

To sum up. My story is that life is a series of stories. But that’s a story. Right now, I think my story needs to be an open one. But later, who knows. In storytelling, the classic structure anyway, you throw out some themes, or stories, and then you bring them together to make a new story – Hegel all over the place. Maybe I’ll see that happening someday, that I’ve gathered a critical mass of stories and now need to integrate them. Maybe that’s why I’m into documentary filmmaking. I get the raw stuff of life, and make a story out of it. What fun.

Thank you for this humongous post. I always get a lot out of your views and stories. I too find that any story, whether myth or real life, has inherent value.

Thanks again.

[dogzilla]

flotsam, I skipped over that post earlier today. Now that I've had time to go back and read it thoughtfully, I have to say. You are a truly gifted writer.

Thank you.

[why me]

Well, my take on this is still evolving. I like to think that I am not very old yet, and that I still have time to think about this some more.

My training in writing has led me to think of life as a series of stories. Some of them are believed to be truth, and some are believed to be false. But in the end, they're all stories. But that's not to denigrate stories. I actually think they're close to the most important thing we have. Because as mein_machine pointed out, religion is a way of making our lives seem coherent in the midst of incoherence. That's just what human do. We make stories.
So, like you, the Mormon story propelled my life. It certainly propelled me for about ten years longer than it did you. I got through a mission and everything. And you know, there's really something to that. I quite miss the feeling of "getting somewhere" that the Mormon story gave me. I mean, it was all laid out: we're here to prove ourselves and we're on our way to our reward, meanwhile, let's build the kingdom. It's very constructive, and can add a lot of structure to one's life. Certainly to mine.

So what I see happening to you Misha is that you've lost the story and no longer see yourself as a character with a mission in life, or a goal. You feel like you're drifting.

There's certainly a precedent for that in mythology. Think of Tristan in his oarless boat. Or Jonah in his whale. Or Odysseus going from storm to shipwreck for 7 years. St. John of the Cross and his long dark night of the soul. Wisdom seems to tell us that life has these kinds of anchorless stretches of life.

But that certainly doesn't make them any easier. I have a hard time falling asleep some nights because I see everything I do as being completely frail and worthless. When I was a TBM I didn't have a hard time with that (unless I wasn't walking the lock step, which occurred quite frequently) though I did have many more nightmares of hiding from the angels that were trying to bring me to the judgment bar.

It's been difficult for me to go from a strong, concrete theology to one that essentially looks like undeveloped land. Some people would call it losing my testimony, I want to call it finding what comes naturally.

But that's my story.

The test of a story, I think, is if it can thrive in difficult times. That's certainly the test of a character in a story. If you think about it, the characters we're interested in are often people without the wherewithal to face the huge complexities that life has thrown at them. Someone who is in over his or her head. The worse things get, the more involved we are. The higher the tension gets the better the plot is.

And see, Mormonism does that very well. Not a Sunday goes by when I don't hear someone telling us that we are engaged in a battle with Satan. Battle imagry is everywhere. Because it's exciting. It makes us feel like our actions have eternal meaning. An excellent story as far as I'm concerned - meaning that it seems to be able to operate for a great many people.

So for the past few years, I've been thinking: The Mormon story doesn't seem to work for me. When I've shed its parameters and demands on my beliefs, I've found myself becoming happier, and, strangely, actually losing some of the vices that Mormonism could seem to root out of me. (In fact, I wonder if the Mormon story didn't drive them in deeper.) I really have no authority to say if the Mormon story is a description of reality. All I can say is, this doesn't seem to work for me. Which sounds totally lame to my TBM friends. You don't just say, "I don't particularly like the truth," as if its a fashion. But that's the way it goes.

I certainly have stronger feelings about not liking Mormonism than I do about not liking a fashion style, mainly because I can see that the structures of Mormonism did some really awful things to my emotional health.

So now I have to find a new story. Or hopefully, create one. And so far the story that has seemed healthiest for me is an openness to pretty much everything. To say to every story, "OK tell me your story. I want to listen." And then try to sit without judgment and see what kinds of things bubble up inside me. :eek: Whoops, that was just some gas. Sorry.

This is different than my Mormon story. My Mormon story said, "Sure I'll listen to your story so that I can build relationships of trust so that I can preach to you and bring you on over to my story." Mormonism's story is way more exclusive than my current, forming story is. In some ways. I still like Joseph Smith's idea of "circumscribing truth into one great whole." To me that means, telling the epic story. Letting it's plots weave in and out, watch powers shift and decisions get made. Etc.

However, I still go to church. And here's one reason maybe why. The tension of the exclusive story and the open story is one that seems to bring up a lot of good ideas in my head. Seeing the Mormon story in full, unapologetic swing - well, it's like being an anthropologist. I see people acting out their culture with no consciousness of an outside viewer to make them question their activities or beliefs. Seeing this, hearing what they say to each other, and remembering the huge impact those ideas used to have on me (and to some extent, still do - I still tremble when a leader gets and up states doctrine unequivocally and with all the authority he believes he has) does a few things to me. First, they often make me angry. And like Anakin Skywalker, anger seems to focus my powers. Second, it increases the tension in my thoughts again. Gives me a dialectic to interact with my own budding philosophy.

It's kind of like linguistic theory, that you don't define things by what they are, but by what they aren't, or what they contrast. If I just muddle around in my own head, I tend to get mired (take this post for example). I need a community to think with.

Admittedly, I'd prefer to think with a community not so dogmatic. But it is very difficult for me to find a community where the people think well and are willing to call me on the times when I do bad thinking. It's hard to find people who will challenge me.

The Mormons, inherently, challenge me. They tell me that most of what I think is wrong, and they have a huge system to back it up. I mean, there's no Church of Flotsam, now is there? So when I go to the Mormons, my beliefs will unfailingly get challenged. Not intellectually, heaven knows that if people only use 10 percent of their brains in normal life, most use a 100th of their brains in church - enough to keep their gross motor skills operational. But they have access to my childhood feelings, a great deal of the passion I’ve felt, and my longing to have a real, meaningful life. They have access to my viscera, and it seems important for it to be played upon to stimulate whatever it is that I’m trying to build independently.
Essentially, it's the structure of the story. A character tries to find meaning against the odds.
To sum up. My story is that life is a series of stories. But that’s a story.


I think flotsam you posted an interesting true story about you and your own belief system. I can definitely relate to it. In some strange way we are blood brothers in our church attendance. You even mentioned my favorite word 'dialectic' in your post. But in my case and perhaps this is your case too, I cannot stop attending or believing because there is always something that keeps me in the fold. True I am terrible member but still there is a force that binds me to it all. Wouldn't you say this also about yourself? I think that everyone in this forum is on some sort of search or journey. And we come together in this site and try to construct feelings and understandings about our relationship to the world around us and with ourselves, alone. We are all normal...traveling on the same ship but maybe on different decks which we change from time to time according to our own wind and weather. Thanks for the post and for your openness and honesty, especially about Gene England. Take care! :)