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helemon
6th June 2005, 09:59 PM
"Had every Roman father been teaching his sons righteousness instead of war, and every mother making a home for her children; had all parents assembled their children in their homes instead of the circuses and public baths; had they taught them chastity and honor and integrity and cleanness; would Rome still be a world power? Certainly it was not the barbarians from the north but the insidious moral termites within that destroyed the Roman world empire."First Presidency Message Home: The Place to Save Society
Spencer W. Kimball, “Home: The Place to Save Society,” Ensign, Jan. 1975, 3


The rise and fall of civilizations according to the alternating righteousness and wickedness of the peoples proclaim the need to hear and to heed the Savior’s divine messages.Fortify Your Homes against Evil
Spencer W. Kimball, “Fortify Your Homes against Evil,” Ensign, May 1979, 4


Jenkin Lloyd Jones said the pathway of history is littered with the bones of dead states and fallen empires. He points out that Rome did not fall because its walls were low, but because Rome itself was low. The sensuality, orgies, and gradually weakened fibre of a once self-disciplined people brought Rome down."Thou Mayest Choose for Thyself"
N. Eldon Tanner, “Thou Mayest Choose for Thyself,” Ensign, July 1973, 7

Or maybe, just maybe, could it be that they were just plain going insane?


http://www.leadpoison.net/general/history.htm
"In ancient Rome, lead poisoning was a disease of the wealthy who used lead extensively: leaden cooking utensils and pots, leaden wine urns, lead plumbing (also to line the aqueducts) (Plumbing is derived from plumbum, Latin for " Lead"), vessels used to concentrate grape juice, containers used to store wine, and lead-based makeup. In those days there were no substances ( like sulfites) to act as preservatives for the wines. Lead is naturally sweet in taste and was found to enhance both the color and bouquet of wine. The Romans shipped wines all over their empire, as far way as northern Germany. A preservative was needed to prevent bacteria from turning the wines into vinegar. The Greeks added pine tree resin to their wines but the Romans preferred sweet Sapa, a boiled down concentrate of grape juice. The problem with Sapa was that the kettle used in boiling unfermented grape juice into a concentrate was made of lead, which leaches into the liquid because of the high acidic content of the grape juice. The final product, Sapa, is a sweet aromatic syrup containing about one gram of lead per liter. Because of its sweet taste, many Romans used it as a sweetening agent in many dishes. When taken together, all the pathways of lead in Roman society, and the intake of lead in Roman times is estimated to have varied from about 35 mg/day to about 250 mg/day, compared to today’s daily intake of 0.3mg in the United states in the 1980’s (National Academy of Sciences 1980).

There are many distinquished historians who now believe that this high exposure to lead was a contributing force in the decline of the Roman Empire. With the more recent scientific research proving that lead is a highly neurotoxicant and analyzing the strange behavior of most Roman leaders and the upper classes, a good case can be made for lead’s role in a declining Roman society. What is ironic is the fact the during Roman times lead poisoning was primarily a disease of the affluent while today it is an affliction of primarily the poorer communities. "

Born Free
6th June 2005, 10:50 PM
If you want an alternative take on why civilisations rise and fall, with the benefit of just a pinch more study behind it, try Morris Berman's The Twilight of American Culture.

Civilisations, like trees and humans, have a life cycle. They are not immortal. They have growth, maturation and decay phases. :duh

But, that would be too sober and wise for Mormons. Satan and Evil has to be behind everything, so that leaders can play the 'fear fiddle' to keep people all anxious, guilt ridden and controllable.

But then maybe I am old and cynical (having heard this sort of alarmist drivel so many times before). :eek:

Daryl

Born Free
6th June 2005, 10:53 PM
I noticed none of them quoted civilisations that went down the tube because they stripped their resources bare and screwed their environment. That would be too close to the bone.

So breed you good little Mormons; go at it like rabbits!

Daryl

helemon
6th June 2005, 11:54 PM
I noticed none of them quoted civilisations that went down the tube because they stripped their resources bare and screwed their environment. That would be too close to the bone.

So breed you good little Mormons; go at it like rabbits!

Daryl

Yes I think that is the scariest lesson that we seem to never learn from history. We focus on how the society decayed or went into chaos but we ignore the part about how their treatment of the environment led in many instances to the mass starvations and rampant disease and in this case it led to insanity. I believe some of those "Lamanite" civilizations down in Mexico followed such a path of destruction. But that must be wrong because the Book of Mormon said it was because of their wickedness.

Born Free
7th June 2005, 12:10 AM
It just struck me how hilarious it is that the Nephites aren't any more and the supposedly wicked Lamanites that still are.

Go figure!

So much for simplistic theories of rise and decline. It's a bummer when you keep your brain engaged and dissect the pap that these people spew forth! But, on the bright side, the fallen civilisation of the Nephites does not appear to have left any rubble. How tidy of them!

Daryl

nate
7th June 2005, 12:13 AM
If you want an alternative take on why civilisations rise and fall, with the benefit of just a pinch more study behind it, try Morris Berman's The Twilight of American Culture.


Another good book on this topic is Dark Age Ahead by Jane Jacobs.

Nate

Born Free
7th June 2005, 12:25 AM
Another good book on this topic is Dark Age Ahead by Jane Jacobs.

Nate
Nate,

That looks good based on the reviews. 1-5, 5 being great, how would you rate it youself?

Looks like she is as critical of declining educational standards as Berman. So BYU's filtered take on the world would fit the 'decline formula'.

Daryl

helemon
7th June 2005, 01:16 AM
But, on the bright side, the fallen civilisation of the Nephites does not appear to have left any rubble. How tidy of them!
Daryl

It's all hidden under those temples. The temples are like onions you know! If we could only peal back enough layers we would find all the evidence you need! :slap: :D

free thinker
7th June 2005, 01:42 AM
Since the founding of the Roman empire monogamy has prevailed more extensively than in times previous to that. The founders of that ancient empire were robbers and women stealers, and made laws favoring monogamy in consequence of the scarcity of women among them, and hence this monogamic system which now prevails throughout Christendom, and which had been so fruitful a source of prostitution and whoredom throughout all the Christian monogamic cities of the Old and New World, until rottenness and decay are at the root of their institutions both national and religious."
- The Prophet Brigham Young Journal of Discourses, Vol. 11, p. 128

Go Brig Go!!!

Free Thinker

miss taken
7th June 2005, 02:56 AM
Good grief, I didn't know that the church leaders had written this garbage on the rise and fall of the Roman Empire!!!

Watched a history prog on TV yesterday, and it was saying that...contrary to Monty Python...and what did the Romans do for us....

It was actually the Etruscans who gave us straight roads, gladiators, some of the best building technology, engineering, boat building, and art, to name but a few.

The rotten Romans saw what they had, and wanted a piece of it....

The Etruscan answer was to fight to protect what they had.

Their tombs, about the time the Romans were invading them indicate a new type of art characterised by devils and hell (now that's interesting for 550bc), basically the narrator (some Oxford Don) argues that it was to psychologically push young men into fighting for leader and country rather than accept those darn Romans. Prior to that time the tombs had been filled only with happiness and familiar items...

Great stuff... ...2000 years later, the christians are doing the same thing. The devils that were depicted on the Etruscan tombs were EXACTLY the same as the common conception of devils and hell today,...!!!! interesting......!!!!!

I really need to go to Italy...sigh......

http://bstorage.com/photo/Italy/Tarquinia/

http://www.maravot.com/Etruscan_Murals.html

Mary

why me
7th June 2005, 11:52 AM
I have also heard that Rome fell because of a moral decline. Of course this is a simple explanation for a complex issue but certainly moral behavior does impact a civilization. We can even hear this today from certain right-wing neo-con forces about the direction American society in terms of morality. Moral behavior requires discipline. A contributing factor in the fall of Rome was the same as it is today. People searching for pleasure in the here and now. It is the beer and circus mentality which adds to a civilizations decline. But it is not the only reason. Imperial blood grows tired of conquest and success can lead to ruin. No country can succeed by military might alone; rather there needs to be a moral example also. And conquest is conquest. The power of the sword leads to ruin. To lead without the sword and to lead based on a moral imperative would have perhaps saved Rome. Are you listening America?

dogzilla
7th June 2005, 12:39 PM
Well stated, why me. The problem with the right-wing neo con message is that "morality" does not necessarily equal "religious". Rome was quite successful for several hundred years under a pagan religious system. Once Jesus was born and Christianity started to spread like the plague... that coincided with approximately the same point in time that Roman society started to crumble.

I'm not saying that one caused the other... I'm just sayin'!

;)

nate
8th June 2005, 06:50 PM
Nate,

That looks good based on the reviews. 1-5, 5 being great, how would you rate it youself?

Looks like she is as critical of declining educational standards as Berman. So BYU's filtered take on the world would fit the 'decline formula'.

Daryl

Writing style a 3, subject & information a 4+. She does a great job. She first starts by listing and describing the main pillars of civilization and how they relate to each other, and why they are essential. Then she dives into each one, in depth. One of the pillars that she lists is indeed higher education, and she provides a very strong case for her argument.

One thing that I really liked about the book, is she goes to lengths to describe the difference between the biological family unit and the economical family unit; and how a successful family must maintain both, while our society is focusing more and more on only the economical unit...and leaving the biological unit far behind, creating an imbalance.

I definitely recommend it.

Nate