FAIR reaction

[templenamesarah]

Greetings, fellow travellers.

I have been avidly reading all the latest posts even though I have not been posting very much.

I have lately been reading a number of the FAIR message boards and I find myself with the strangest feeling after taking in the opinions and info from FAIR: "Maybe it really is true after all." I think this reaction is due to a number of reasons:

1. The devout members seem so very sure of themselves. I got so used to simply accepting on authority anything that I was told about the LDS Church and its history that I never challenged any of it. That old acquiescense is sneaking back into my reading, I think.

2. There is a surprising amount of wiggle room in many LDS teachings. For example, when it comes to the DNA evidence, there is just enough wiggle room to think that *maybe it *might be a *little bit true. Even though the prophets taught for over 100 years that the BoM Cumorah was one and the same with the Cumorah in upstate New York, and they taught that American Indians were all descended from Lamanites, and we cannot 100% rule out the BoM story based on the mDNA evidence because a bunch of non-peer-review FARMS scientists say so, etc.

It really, really irks me that the GAs can maintain a position for generations, but when that position is proven impossible (like Hill Cumorah), they can say, Gee, we never said that was our Official Position, it was just our personal opinion; the prophet was speaking as a man, not a prophet at that particular time. It seems to me that the LDS Church has very few definite positions on much of anything.

Recently I had a discussion with my TBM father regarding FARMS. I mentioned that all of the position papers that FARMS published are not peer reviewed by disinterested third parties, and therefore are not up to any reasonable scientific standard. His reply, natch, was that of course they couldn't let anti-Mos (read: any NotMos) criticize their work. But the work was peer-reviewed by other Mos, and that was good enough.

Sorry that this post has wandered all over the place. It reflects my thoughts on the matter, which are currently somewhat scattered.

I need to get back to reading my Carl Sagan book. That should help snap some sense back into me.

[helemon]

I have lately been reading a number of the FAIR message boards and I find myself with the strangest feeling after taking in the opinions and info from FAIR: "Maybe it really is true after all."

Quick someone take some cookies to this woman!! :D


There is a surprising amount of wiggle room in many LDS teachings. For example, when it comes to the DNA evidence, there is just enough wiggle room to think that *maybe it *might be a *little bit true.

Can you elaborate on what specifically is making you think there is wiggle room? Most of what I have read confirms that they are grasping at straws.

[free thinker]

2. There is a surprising amount of wiggle room in many LDS teachings. For example, when it comes to the DNA evidence, there is just enough wiggle room to think that *maybe it *might be a *little bit true. Even though the prophets taught for over 100 years that the BoM Cumorah was one and the same with the Cumorah in upstate New York, and they taught that American Indians were all descended from Lamanites, and we cannot 100% rule out the BoM story based on the mDNA evidence because a bunch of non-peer-review FARMS scientists say so, etc.

The above is enough to show any truly rational person the defects of the apologist argument. No need to look any farther. Apologists by their very nature tend to try to muddy the water of rational thinking. Hence the name, apologist.

When the church found out that the papyrus that turned up at the MoMA was not really the book of abraham as JS proclaimed, they silently employed Hugh Nibley to be cheif apologist. He made a career of it. But they never once said. We were wrong. It is not what we thought. Don't you see the subtlety there?

The people at FAIR need the faith for whatever reason at this point in their life. If they find they dont, they may join us here. I would doubt very much anyone here will ever join them there. Just my humble opinion!

Free Thinker

[elder_nomo]

Dear Nancy -
I was talking to a co-worker today (totally unrelated to mo-ism or spirituality or religion) and he mentioned "Occam's Razor", something I had heard of but didn't really know what it means.
His explanation (in a nutshell).... "the simplest explanation is usually the correct one."
As an example, he said, "maybe there were space aliens who came to earth and were regarded as gods and taught the Egyptians how to move large stones and caused the pyramids to be built and their identity was kept secret and they went away without leaving evidence of having been here.
Or....
maybe the Egyptians just built them."

I did a google search on "occam's razor" and I see that while his explanation is maybe not totally accurate, it's close enough. [Some of our philosophizing post-mo pals are probably much more versed in the finer points.] Anyway, for me the main point is, yes, you can invent all kinds of twisting, turning, maybe-this-is-why, explanations. Or you can go with what you sense is the simple truth.

It is sort of a cousin of the old saying "if something sounds too good to be true, it probably is".
But in this case, it's more like "if something sounds too convoluted to be true, it probably isn't".

I feel like I'm rambling... hope this makes sense.
- e.nomo

[aether]

[Some of our philosophizing post-mo pals are probably much more versed in the finer points.]

Actually no you're exactly right. I believe the example that Occam himself used, though, was that if there's a wind storm, and you see two trees have fallen over, it's possible that two meteorites flew through the Earth's atmosphere, collided with the two trees, making them fall, and then ricocheted into each other with such force that both of them evaporated, leaving no evidence. Or, the simpler explanation is that the wind blew the trees over.

Same idea with the church. They say something, and then have to say something else to argue it against criticism, and then they have to make exceptions to their own rules, then they have to state that their first statement is not 100%, leaving some wiggle room, and by that point there's enough space to belief that whatever it is they're saying could be possible. The simplest explanation though, is that it's probably not possible.

But still, that's really all just a problem of chance and probability. And if everyone had believed everything based on how probable it was, we'd still be in the stone ages. For example: It appears in the sky that the sun revolves around the Earth. When Copernicus proclaimed that the Earth really revolved around the sun, the idea was contrary to sensory perception, and was therefore not very probable. It took hundreds and hundreds of years to convince people that the least probable answer was the truth.

That being said... I don't believe the church is true. Yes, many people do believe it, so many people are tearful and emotional in their testimonies, so many smart and wise people are guided by it in every detail of their life. But.. the same could be said of Catholicism, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, etc. Everyone believes in something, and there are similar people who believe different things. I'm sure if one went to a Jainism apologist site (is there such a thing?), the exact same type of devotion would be displayed there.

To join a church based on how much the members believe in it seems, to me, quite silly. Strange, though, I feel like I'm reacting just like they would. I want to say, "Don't stray, templenamesarah! Stay in the fold! We love you! Don't even think of going back there!" But that would be against my religion. :p

[helemon]

But still, that's really all just a problem of chance and probability. And if everyone had believed everything based on how probable it was, we'd still be in the stone ages. For example: It appears in the sky that the sun revolves around the Earth. When Copernicus proclaimed that the Earth really revolved around the sun, the idea was contrary to sensory perception, and was therefore not very probable. It took hundreds and hundreds of years to convince people that the least probable answer was the truth.


But the Copernicum model does adhere to Occum's Razor. The previous Ptolemaic model which held the earth at the center of the universe, tried to explain the wandering (the word planet means wanderer) movements of the planets with all sorts of elaborate mathematical models that caused the astronomers all sorts of fits.

I think it was Kepler who finally applied the ideas of Copernicus heliocentric model and was able to create an accurate model of the planetary movement of Mars using eliptical paths for the planets rather than the convoluted pathes his contemporary Tyco Brahe who was still trying to prove the Ptolemaic model could work.

The clues to the true answer were always there, it just took time to put it all together. But that is the beauty of the scientific method. Truth is not held up as a unchanging dogmatic certainty from God to which all facts must be fit and all competing models ridiculed and discounted. The scientific pursuit of truth is a process of refinement where the models are continually examined against the evidence, and refined.

Imagine if you used the religious model to drive your car from Odgen to Wendover. The religious model would tell you to pray about it and then drive in whatever direction the spirit indicates no matter what barriers or obstacles you encounter. After all those are just tests of your faith to make sure you will remain true to the feelings that started you on your journey. Maybe you ask some old guy in the neighborhood for directions and he tells you how to get their based on the roads that were around 80 years ago but you trust that he wouldn't lie to you so you follow them. Theoretically you may be able to get to your intended destination but more likely you would end up in a wreck.

Most people however use a more rational model when driving. They may start out with an idea of where they want to go and a general sense of the direction they need to head, but they also consult a map, and follow the road signs, and adjust their steering of the vehicle based on the path of the road. If they encounter a detour they don't question its validity because their feelings didn't tell them anything about a detour. The journey is a continual process of evaluation and refinement of your actions against what you see around you which is used to adjust your understanding of your position relative to the destination until finally you arrive in Wendover. :D

[why me]

Greetings, fellow travellers.

I have been avidly reading all the latest posts even though I have not been posting very much.

I have lately been reading a number of the FAIR message boards and I find myself with the strangest feeling after taking in the opinions and info from FAIR: "Maybe it really is true after all." I think this reaction is due to a number of reasons:

1. The devout members seem so very sure of themselves. I got so used to simply accepting on authority anything that I was told about the LDS Church and its history that I never challenged any of it. That old acquiescense is sneaking back into my reading, I think.

2. There is a surprising amount of wiggle room in many LDS teachings. For example, when it comes to the DNA evidence, there is just enough wiggle room to think that *maybe it *might be a *little bit true. Even though the prophets taught for over 100 years that the BoM Cumorah was one and the same with the Cumorah in upstate New York, and they taught that American Indians were all descended from Lamanites, and we cannot 100% rule out the BoM story based on the mDNA evidence because a bunch of non-peer-review FARMS scientists say so, etc.

It really, really irks me that the GAs can maintain a position for generations, but when that position is proven impossible (like Hill Cumorah), they can say, Gee, we never said that was our Official Position, it was just our personal opinion; the prophet was speaking as a man, not a prophet at that particular time. It seems to me that the LDS Church has very few definite positions on much of anything.

Recently I had a discussion with my TBM father regarding FARMS. I mentioned that all of the position papers that FARMS published are not peer reviewed by disinterested third parties, and therefore are not up to any reasonable scientific standard. His reply, natch, was that of course they couldn't let anti-Mos (read: any NotMos) criticize their work. But the work was peer-reviewed by other Mos, and that was good enough.

Sorry that this post has wandered all over the place. It reflects my thoughts on the matter, which are currently somewhat scattered.

I need to get back to reading my Carl Sagan book. That should help snap some sense back into me.

I can understand your feelings very well.The FAIR board is quite a board of diverse LDS people. They have a strong feeling and testimony that the church is true. And they are certainly challenged in their beliefs and testimony. I think that in your search for truth and understanding no one here can lead you in any direction except the direction in which you want to follow and give support in that direction. IMO, there can be no convincing and persuasion on the part of the posters here. It would not be in practice with the reasons for this forum. I have posted many times my feelings and understandings on these threads and of course many have disagreed with me and many have agreed with me. Some have understoond my feelings and I am sure others have not. What I am trying to say is that I cannot disbelieve church teachings but I also cannot follow them. I have thought: who am I to question another person's belief system and say what you believe is foolish? I know TBMs. Many are good people and honest people who have a sincerity toward God and home. Sometimes I can wish the same for myself. I am not a postmo...just an inactive mormon trying to make sense out of life. And even if I were an active mo, I would still do the same. What I find really wonderful about you Nancy is your search for truth in honesty and open-mindedness. You are still searching for answers and that is never a negative thing to do. Keep reading and keep discovering and hopefully you will reach your own conclusions about life and god. And keep posting here... :) I think that we all would support you in your human-life direction...

[templenamesarah]

I want to bare my breastimo..... I mean bear my testimony that I know with every fiber of my being that you all rock!

Seriously, I want to thank you all for your kind responses to me. It is especially refreshing to me to have a support group that does not attempt to argue me back into line in my moment of doubt, but rather supports my own mind and decision-making machinery.

I feel that my critical and skeptical thinking skills are underdeveloped. I blame most of that handicap on growing up in an environment that actively discourages critical thinking. Although it is quite difficult sometimes, I am so excited by all of the new information I am learning and the skills I am developing. (Sorry for the crappy syntax. My English teacher is no doubt having heart palpitations as I type this.)

I do know that I could never again be a TBM. This Mormon slave is learning to read (metaphoricaly speaking, of course) and will never again be satisfied to be subjugated.

[dogzilla]

I want to bare my breastimo..... I mean bear my testimony that I know with every fiber of my being that you all rock!

Seriously, I want to thank you all for your kind responses to me. It is especially refreshing to me to have a support group that does not attempt to argue me back into line in my moment of doubt, but rather supports my own mind and decision-making machinery.

I feel that my critical and skeptical thinking skills are underdeveloped. I blame most of that handicap on growing up in an environment that actively discourages critical thinking. Although it is quite difficult sometimes, I am so excited by all of the new information I am learning and the skills I am developing. (Sorry for the crappy syntax. My English teacher is no doubt having heart palpitations as I type this.)

I do know that I could never again be a TBM. This Mormon slave is learning to read (metaphoricaly speaking, of course) and will never again be satisfied to be subjugated.

I'm an editor IRL. Your syntax is fine. :)

[why me]

I want to bare my breastimo..... I mean bear my testimony that I know with every fiber of my being that you all rock!

Seriously, I want to thank you all for your kind responses to me. It is especially refreshing to me to have a support group that does not attempt to argue me back into line in my moment of doubt, but rather supports my own mind and decision-making machinery.

I feel that my critical and skeptical thinking skills are underdeveloped. I blame most of that handicap on growing up in an environment that actively discourages critical thinking. Although it is quite difficult sometimes, I am so excited by all of the new information I am learning and the skills I am developing. (Sorry for the crappy syntax. My English teacher is no doubt having heart palpitations as I type this.)

I do know that I could never again be a TBM. This Mormon slave is learning to read (metaphoricaly speaking, of course) and will never again be satisfied to be subjugated.


What is a TBM? I asked this question on a starter thread but unfortunately there have been only two responses. Of course I know what the initials stand for but who exactly is a TBM? I don't think that the church frowns upon critical thinking but I know that if it is used in church meetings, it must be used within certain boundaries. This is where the FAIR boards take over; it allows for members to critically discuss and analyze the burning questions that they have about gospel principles etc which they would not feel comfortable to bring up in church meetings. I think Nancy that you are developing your skills just fine. We are all learning in this life and I personally feel that nothing is certain. Perhaps most knowledge needs to be treated skeptically. Through the process of questioning we seem to develop our learning skills to be more intune with life observations and experiences. But of course, there is also certain knowledge---you and I are alive now on this earth and we are learning to navigate our sails to face the sunrises, sunsets, blue skies, and dark storms. If you wish, attend church with your new mindset, read the FAIR boards, post here on postmo.org, experience joys and delights and embrace the sensations and feelings of being alive... Now I just need to follow my own advice... ;)

[templenamesarah]

I don't think that the church frowns upon critical thinking but I know that if it is used in church meetings, it must be used within certain boundaries. This is where the FAIR boards take over; it allows for members to critically discuss and analyze the burning questions that they have about gospel principles etc which they would not feel comfortable to bring up in church meetings.

I like your perspective on this issue. FTR, when I said I grew up in an environment that did not support critical thinking, I was referring more to my own home rather than the LDS church. I'm sorry that I didn't specify that distinction.

I think Nancy that you are developing your skills just fine. We are all learning in this life and I personally feel that nothing is certain. Perhaps most knowledge needs to be treated skeptically. Through the process of questioning we seem to develop our learning skills to be more intune with life observations and experiences. But of course, there is also certain knowledge---you and I are alive now on this earth and we are learning to navigate our sails to face the sunrises, sunsets, blue skies, and dark storms. If you wish, attend church with your new mindset, read the FAIR boards, post here on postmo.org, experience joys and delights and embrace the sensations and feelings of being alive... Now I just need to follow my own advice... ;)

Ahhh, your words are so calming to me. Well, all except the "attend church" part. ;) You seem like a kind person. I really appreciate you and all the others who took the time to respond to me. Cheers. :)

[why me]

Ahhh, your words are so calming to me. Well, all except the "attend church" part. ;) You seem like a kind person. I really appreciate you and all the others who took the time to respond to me. Cheers. :)

I think you know what I meant....as an option only...I just wanted to give you all the options that you may be considering....and to feel good about the options you take part in....regardless of your choice.... :) Thanks for the nice words about me... :)

[miss taken]

I hated FAIR to begin with, but I actually quite like it now.

Lots of really cool people contribute, of the very committed nature, and also skeptics, and of course the likes of Dan Vogel, Kerry Shirts, Daniel Peterson and so forth.

There's one kind of wacky guy at the moment who posted an article on obedience, and I found myself completely siding with most of the faithful LDS members on the issues he brought up.

http://www.fairboards.org/index.php?showtopic=8589

really funny one!!!!

There is also a cool one (another one) on polygamy, with this poor guy finding out all this information and being totally freaked, (a lot of those seem to appear, and these often sincere people can be treated by some LDS with derision, which is quite a pity).

http://www.fairboards.org/index.php?showtopic=8710



Actually some of the faithful, are now saying, hey we knew about the history of the church in all its glory and colour, and we accept it and still know the church is true, etc etc. Well, there was I living in England, local library, no internet, and I was spoon fed the same rubbish as most other people were. So, if I get angry, I get angry with people who say that the information was always there, and if you didn't find it you were a slothful servant.... sigh.........

I just wish that there had been a FAIR board like this for me to look at when I was actually active, it would have let me know that I wasn't the only person who was wondering what the truth about mormon origins actually was. I mean isn't it important to know, particularly if you are devoting your whole life, intellect, time, emotion to....?? I think so.....

Mary

Nancy, sometimes I feel attracted to the surety of thinking that someone knows all the answers, but I don't think they do, and I certainly don't. I can honestly say that life is as good and wholesome outside the church as it is in. All this baloney about the world outside being evil, was a load of old tosh. There's good and bad in the church, and there's good and bad outside it. That's life.

:D :o

[why me]

I hated FAIR to begin with, but I actually quite like it now.

Lots of really cool people contribute, of the very committed nature, and also skeptics, and of course the likes of Dan Vogel, Kerry Shirts, Daniel Peterson and so forth.

There's one kind of wacky guy at the moment who posted an article on obedience, and I found myself completely siding with most of the faithful LDS members on the issues he brought up.

http://www.fairboards.org/index.php?showtopic=8589

really funny one!!!!

There is also a cool one (another one) on polygamy, with this poor guy finding out all this information and being totally freaked, (a lot of those seem to appear, and these often sincere people can be treated by some LDS with derision, which is quite a pity).

http://www.fairboards.org/index.php?showtopic=8710



Actually some of the faithful, are now saying, hey we knew about the history of the church in all its glory and colour, and we accept it and still know the church is true, etc etc. Well, there was I living in England, local library, no internet, and I was spoon fed the same rubbish as most other people were. So, if I get angry, I get angry with people who say that the information was always there, and if you didn't find it you were a slothful servant.... sigh.........

I just wish that there had been a FAIR board like this for me to look at when I was actually active, it would have let me know that I wasn't the only person who was wondering what the truth about mormon origins actually was. I mean isn't it important to know, particularly if you are devoting your whole life, intellect, time, emotion to....?? I think so.....

Mary

Nancy, sometimes I feel attracted to the surety of thinking that someone knows all the answers, but I don't think they do, and I certainly don't. I can honestly say that life is as good and wholesome outside the church as it is in. All this baloney about the world outside being evil, was a load of old tosh. There's good and bad in the church, and there's good and bad outside it. That's life.

:D :o

You are so right about the good and bad part you mentioned in your post. And you are so right about the surety of thinking part also. But I think that I can safely write that very few people (these days) have surety of thinking. Life has become such a questioning process and knowledge is so liberally given that learning and understanding seems to be built on sand dunes....it constantly shifts with the wind and storms. Many people are constantly discovering new ideas and new histories that old frames of knowledge are reshaped and remolded to fit the current need of the person. Do you remember the title of the essay, Miss Taken, that I recommended a while back----"I don't have a testimony of church history." I think that many FAIR people have this mindset---their testimony is not based on history but on some other source of inspiration. And I suppose that many humans are in some sort of struggle to hold on to their piece of rock in the sand....
:)

[miss taken]

WHy me, hi, yes I do remember that article on the history of the church. I read it with great interest, and disagreed with most of what he said!!!!!!

http://www.fairlds.org/pubs/conf/2004BitD.html

I disagree, because he seems to be able to separate the gospel of Jesus and the formation of the LDS church. I don't think they can so easily be separated. Historical truth should not contradict spiritual truth. Truth is truth, and falsity is falsity (is that a real word??). Maybe we should name SLC falsity!

A lie is a lie is a lie is a lie, no matter how it gets wrapped up, and I only hold the members to the same standard they bestow on other churches,

ah....but we have the fullness of truth, the other churches mix truth with error.

If I ever found that in abundance, I found it in the LDS church, the mixing of truth with error, all in the name of faith promotion.

He goes no where near to answering the deep seated questions and puzzles that I have about the LDS church most of the apologists on fair don't either.

I am open to answers and no one is providing them....

Mary

Why me, it is beautiful weather over here today, I am enjoying my garden, the peonies, roses, irises, water lilies, and lobelia are all out and there's more growing! A festival of colour - just how I like it!!!!

[miss taken]

Just found this...

http://www.timesandseasons.org/archives/001231.html

[free thinker]

Interesting page Mary!!

We are seeing, I think, an active effort now for the church to decouple from some of it's history. This will take some time, but I think it will happen. The institution is large, and powerfull enough to do this as time passes.

I think at some point many of the historical items will be seen as quaint, and anacrhonistic. The modern church goer will see them much as the catholic faithful see their history.

I ain't stikin around!! I was taught the history, and I bought it lock, stock, and barrell. Now I patiently wait for my formal resignation letter.

Free Thinker

[why me]

Just found this...

http://www.timesandseasons.org/archives/001231.html

This was the article that I mentioned to you awhile back. I am glad to see that they are now discussing it on the TBM boards. I suppose that life is a great debate these days...better this way than to be silent....I am glad that the weather is beautiful in merry old England...relax with your flowers and the other aspects of nature that are around or surrounding you.... :) :) I gave you two smiles because of your beautiful weather...