The Holy Order

[miss taken]

Goodness knows how I came across this, but it is interesting, and again something that I had no knowledge of in the church. It was obviously openly taught and I must have been asleep. (lol)

More likely it was under the heading of

'not essential to your salvation' and I was sent off with a flea in my ear....!!!

What was interesting to me, was the role of women in the Holy Order. ...

Apologies if this is old hat to ya'll, but its mostly brand new to me!!!

http://www.lds-mormon.com/holyordr.shtml


Mary

[elder_nomo]

Thanks for this post, Mary.
I had not heard of this either. I suppose it was "meat" that my "milk" self was not ready for. :Puking [a pet peeve of mine, but i'll save that rant for another day].

Sorry to say, though, I was not surprised by it. More of the same..... intrigue, convoluted rituals, secret societies, threats, holier-than-thou rankings of people.
As I was reading this, I got the familiar impression that ol' Joe was literally making $hi# up as he went along. Throwing stuff up against the wall to see what sticks. Apparently this did not stick.

Or maybe it did, and it still exists, but is just too "meaty" for us. :rolleyes:

ps. Mary, please explain "sent off with a flea in my ear"... :confused:

[free thinker]

At one prayer meeting the Prophet gave "good instruction in meekness and humility," testifying that among the Holy Order the selection of the 144,000 had already

Typical blathering and mumbo jumbo of Joseph Smith!! It is all a bunch of convoluted nonsense in my opinion.

At the same time he was out gathering up, and having sex with many young women. Somewhat incongruous is it not?

Free Thinker

[miss taken]

I got the same feeling as Elder Nomo, all those secret groups, societies and heirarchies. Sounds like Amway or any other of those pyramid schemes, with this core inner group at the top.

I don't like it.

Mary

[helemon]

Goodness knows how I came across this, but it is interesting, and again something that I had no knowledge of in the church. It was obviously openly taught and I must have been asleep. (lol)


It sounds to me like it was just the start of the temple ceremony. Joseph probably just limited it to his closest friends at first for the test run. But these things do seem to suggest that many of these things that are essential for salvation were worked out bit by bit to see what works rather than as a revelation from God.

[papa]

Always another layer on the cult onion. Makes me wonder what might be the secret "inner circle" groups in the SCTC today? I have heard friends speak of the "Church of the Firstborn" before, and wonder. Locally, I know there is a fetsh among the truest of tbm's to seek after the second anointing, if that is still available to the rank and file. It used to be common, supposedly for GA's, but of course who knows how common this is now, since membership in this circle is so secret and all. But the lore is that the second anointing is performed by Jesus personally! Maybe the main criterion for membership is a strong enuff testimonkey so that you won't be disappointed if Jesus doesn't perform your anointing?

Just think, that zealous ex-bishop you know with the "I heart Mormons" bumpersticker could be a member of the Church of the Firstborn.

I admit, the social complexity, order and control just makes me feel weary. I guess I want a "kinder, gentler, simpler" Jesus.

[free thinker]

I admit, the social complexity, order and control just makes me feel weary. I guess I want a "kinder, gentler, simpler" Jesus.



I reiterate. It is nothing but hogwash created by a power hungry, ego-maniacal, religious genious. At it's root is the control of good hearted, simple minded, 19th century folks.

What a buch of HS !!! The H is for Horse!!!

Free Thinker

[why me]

Goodness knows how I came across this, but it is interesting, and again something that I had no knowledge of in the church. It was obviously openly taught and I must have been asleep. (lol)

More likely it was under the heading of

'not essential to your salvation' and I was sent off with a flea in my ear....!!!

What was interesting to me, was the role of women in the Holy Order. ...

Apologies if this is old hat to ya'll, but its mostly brand new to me!!!

http://www.lds-mormon.com/holyordr.shtml


Mary

In my academic writing class I give a brief lecture about finding reputable sources. I make clear that the class needs to critically evaluate the source he or she may use to justify their argument and support a position or to oppose a position. Also website bias needs to be considered when using a source to state a positiion. Also the author's expertise needs to be looked into and questioned by the student. In an academic essay or research paper, the evidence must be scientific or academic based. This website is biased and I do not know who this author is and what is her expertise and where this essay was orginally published. Perhaps I missed it somewhere on the site. I cannot agree or disagree with this person until I know that what she wrote is based on evidential fact and overt biasness. This is why I warn my students about using the internet to garner knowledge...I prefer academic journals to biased websites where authors (in some cases) can just publish a text without a critical review board peers. But the article was interesting to read.

[miss taken]

In my academic writing class I give a brief lecture about finding reputable sources. I make clear that the class needs to critically evaluate the source he or she may use to justify their argument and support a position or to oppose a position. Also website bias needs to be considered when using a source to state a positiion. Also the author's expertise needs to be looked into and questioned by the student. In an academic essay or research paper, the evidence must be scientific or academic based. This website is biased and I do not know who this author is and what is her expertise and where this essay was orginally published. Perhaps I missed it somewhere on the site. I cannot agree or disagree with this person until I know that what she wrote is based on evidential fact and overt biasness. This is why I warn my students about using the internet to garner knowledge...I prefer academic journals to biased websites where authors (in some cases) can just publish a text without a critical review board peers. But the article was interesting to read.

Agree, absolutely, with the proviso that having had to scour academic journals, I find that they are just as full of bias!!!! (Particularly in the Education Field, where often there are no right and wrong answers).

Why me!!! Where else do I go to get information. Active Mormons will be excommunicated if they write non-faith promoting stuff, (or at the very least warned and disfellowshipped). I ignore the vehement evangelical christain stuff and view it as hog wash (mostly). And FAIR stuff is not reviewed by anyone outside of the church as far as I know, I don't know that Nibley's LDS stuff was reviewed by unbiased peers, so on that basis their stuff can't be trusted either.

This is why I am so interested in the works of Grant Palmer, Van Wagoner and so forth, who come from the background of being a member, and want to portray the fullness of the evidence shall we say, (rather than ultimate truth which is very hard to find, short of there being a video recorder around at the time!!).

It was also interesting to me because the stake Pres's son who I had been dating back in the 80's used to talk about the 2nd annointing, or having your calling and election made sure. His father was told this by one of the British GA's. And they were puzzled by it.

So there definitely IS an inner circle at work here. I really beleive that.

I disagree partly with Helemon that it was ONLY the beginning of the Endowment. I think that it was probably the beginning of an inner circle of the most trusted confidantes who could and would be loyal to Joseph and his church. Actually, that makes a lot of sense. He would have needed that. And what I liked about it, was the fact that this inner circle in Joseph's time included women. After BY, women were dropped.

It's interesting.

Mary

[why me]

Agree, absolutely, with the proviso that having had to scour academic journals, I find that they are just as full of bias!!!! (Particularly in the Education Field, where often there are no right and wrong answers).

Why me!!! Where else do I go to get information. Active Mormons will be excommunicated if they write non-faith promoting stuff, (or at the very least warned and disfellowshipped). I ignore the vehement evangelical christain stuff and view it as hog wash (mostly). And FAIR stuff is not reviewed by anyone outside of the church as far as I know, I don't know that Nibley's LDS stuff was reviewed by unbiased peers, so on that basis their stuff can't be trusted either.

This is why I am so interested in the works of Grant Palmer, Van Wagoner and so forth, who come from the background of being a member, and want to portray the fullness of the evidence shall we say, (rather than ultimate truth which is very hard to find, short of there being a video recorder around at the time!!).

It was also interesting to me because the stake Pres's son who I had been dating back in the 80's used to talk about the 2nd annointing, or having your calling and election made sure. His father was told this by one of the British GA's. And they were puzzled by it.

So there definitely IS an inner circle at work here. I really beleive that.

I disagree partly with Helemon that it was ONLY the beginning of the Endowment. I think that it was probably the beginning of an inner circle of the most trusted confidantes who could and would be loyal to Joseph and his church. Actually, that makes a lot of sense. He would have needed that. And what I liked about it, was the fact that this inner circle in Joseph's time included women. After BY, women were dropped.

It's interesting.

Mary


Yes, you are absolutely right about biased journals. I try to make clear to the students that most authors write with their own biased interest at heart and it is important to see the biasness in the text. I am a ninkumpoop when it comes to deep doctrine. It floats over my head and I can't seem to reach it. But it is fascinating to read. Oh by the way, Miss Taken, Have you read my discussion with dancinfree in the 'does evil exist' thread? What is your take on our debate there, especially in the last posts about socialism and capitalism? I would be interested to get your insight into it all. Take care....