Atonement For Our Sins

[aether]

The more I think about this subject (Christ's atonement), the more I realize that I have never really understood it - or if I did understand, I never really believed it. There were only a few times I was really nervous that I was a sinner and that I wouldn't be allowed into the Celestial Kingdom, and I remember there was one time I was brought to tears at girls camp after we'd had an object lesson that demonstrated Christ's suffering for us. But I remember whenever I bore my testimony, I rarely mentioned Christ - it was either about God himself or my family or the fellowship in the church.

Especially now that I'm out of the church and have no obligation to bear my testimony about anything, I've been doing a lot of thinking about this topic. One of my roommates left a book lying around today called "The Infinite Atonement," so out of curiosity I picked it up and started reading. It has a quote from Joseph Smith in the first chapter that says, "The fundamental principles of our religion are the testimony of the apostles and Prophets, concerning Jesus Chris, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven; and all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it." If that's true, then it seems I was doomed to leave the church from the very beginning. It's something I just do not understand.

Are there any Christians among us here? Can anyone explain to me the belief in the atonement? I know all the consequences of course, that it saves us from our sins so we can live with God.. or in other religions it saves us from Adam's sin so that we can live with God.. But what I'm looking for is the why of it all. Why is Earth a test? What do we need to be tested for if God is all-knowing and already knows the outcome? Why does God care whether we sin or not? Why do we need to be atoned for, why can't we just pay for our own sins? I had a TBM roommate once tell me that it was all for our benefit so that we could know ourselves better, and that Jesus atoned for us so that we know that someone else knows exactly what we're going through. First of all I asked her why an experience of pure self-discovery would result in some people winding up in hell, and also asked her why Jesus was necessary, since God is omnicient and is already supposed to know everything? She didn't answer these very well, and I'm still left with these questions.

It seems like the older I get, the less I believe in. I'm not sure if I like that, but there's nothing I can really do. Can anyone help answer my questions?

[free thinker]

Hey Misha

I have given this a lot of thought also.

I would love to hear what others have to say. I am truly interested.

Free Thinker

[meinmachine]

I have also wondered about this idea. In fact it helped me “intellectualize" my way out of the church. Here was my line of thinking. Does God actually keep score of all the sins I commit? How does the murder of an earthly deity wipe clean sins? Wouldn’t it be easer to just say forget about it? -Isn’t that what any loving parent would do?

Do you kill your own son because your neighbor stole your car? The logic doesn’t hold up.

The atonement is the classic straw man argument. State the first lie as fact, “God keeps track of your sins.” Then declare the consequences. “So now you can’t go to heaven.” Next, provide the solution, “God sent his son Jesus to die for your sins.” Now state the cost of getting the solution to work for you. “You must repent, and get baptized into my church in order for you to go to heaven.” Let’s not forget the concluding overt threat, “If you do not obey you will be burned in HELL!!!” :eek:

The atonement is the ultimate tool to get the sheep to flock under a master.

Obey or Rambo Jesus will get you! Rambo Jesus died for you, aren’t you willing to die for him? …No wait…aren’t you willing to LIVE FOR HIM!!!!! Send 10% of your Net income to the Bishops Storehouse, and remember OBEY!!!!!! Oh Yeah, Rambo Jesus LOVES YOU! :) :Puking

[miss taken]

Aether, the number of institute lessons I sat through, often with brilliant teachers (one in particular in Oxford) and wondered on what the atonement really means and how it applies to me. I tried to understand the churches take on it, but couldn't get my head around it.

I am going to do a bit of searching around on this one and get back to you... (free from LDS bias)

Pleased to know I am/was not alone in my wonderings.

Mary

[why me]

I have found that the church does not stress the atonement and forgiveness enough. You have the basics but what is missing from the main body of church writings is the art of forgiveness which the atonement brings into our lives. I am trying to stress the act of forgiveness more and more but of my own imperfections. IMO, the church would a much healthier place to be if the notion that 'God is Love in practice' was stressed more in the meetings. The atonement was an act of love in practice and action. It allowed us to face our imperfections in a human and forgiving way. But I don't see this being stressed. Somewhere in the threads there are comments about perfection etc. I don't think that there can be perfection but there can be compassion, understanding, and acts of love. And so, once it is decided how to answer aether's concern, the question would be how to put the atonement into active practice as individuals and if you are in the church---in the church itself. I think that you know why aether...I can sense it in your post. However from a human perspective, the atonement is a symbol of a human being's cruelty to another human being. When christ was brutally tortured and put to death in such a horrible fashion, it showed the executors and the accusors in the most terribel light. How can a human being stomach such barbarism in the human heart as when Christ was tortured and put to death. Maybe the symbolism is there also...a reminder of the worst in us......

[dancinfree]

I have found that the church does not stress the atonement and forgiveness enough. You have the basics but what is missing from the main body of church writings is the art of forgiveness which the atonement brings into our lives. I am trying to stress the act of forgiveness more and more but of my own imperfections. IMO, the church would a much healthier place to be if the notion that 'God is Love in practice' was stressed more in the meetings. The atonement was an act of love in practice and action. It allowed us to face our imperfections in a human and forgiving way. But i don't see this being stressed. Somewhere in the threads there are comments about perfection etc. I don't think that there can be perfection but there can be compassion, understanding, and acts of love. And so, once it is decided how to answer aether's concern the question would be how to be the atonement into active practice as individuals and if you are in the churh---in the church itself. I think that you know why aether...I can sense it in your post. However from a human perspective, the atonement is a symbol of a human being's cruelety to another human being. When christ was brutally tortured and put to death in such a horrible fashion, it showed the executors and the accusors in the most terribel light. How can a human being stomach such barbarism in the human heart as when Christ was tortured and put to death. Maybe the symbolism is there also...a reminder of the worst in us......

My dear Aether,

You have certainly realized, I'm sure, that you have outgrown the need to be forgiven as in Why Me's post. In fact, I don't think you ever embraced the idea that you needed it for you have not done anything "wrong" in this life, you have only started to bump into areas where growth and learning is needed. I too, struggled with the idea of the atonement and when I wrapped fear around it concerning my "sins" I convinced myself that I NEEDED God's forgiveness to get into heaven with him but now I say..SCREW THAT!! I let go of the fear and belief that I had imperfections...I am not imperfect...I am not flawed..I am growing and learning about a world I'm just starting to understand...I am HUMAN!! I desire compassion, love and understanding from myself and those around me..NOT forgiveness.

I am here to learn about myself and hopefully evolve in the space that I'm in. If the TRUE god does show up and doesn't allow me in..then so BE IT but I doubt that would happen...if I don't deserve heaven because I'm learning and growing in this human existance..then So Be It...I'll take the risk and stop hiding behind fear and suckiness..I take responsibility.

In this I guess you can see that I'm with you on this one. I couldn't wrap myself around a need for a Saviour when all I've ever tried to be is an evolving me and observing others doing the same. So thank you for your question...it seems to boil down to if I think I "need" saving and want another to take the "fall" for me...then the saviour idea is Ideal. I would rather be examples of his teachings, rather then rely on his "saving grace".

Loving you,

[why me]

My dear Aether,

You have certainly realized, I'm sure, that you have outgrown the need to be forgiven as in Why Me's post. In fact, I don't think you ever embraced the idea that you needed it for you have not done anything "wrong" in this life, you have only started to bump into areas where growth and learning is needed. I too, struggled with the idea of the atonement and when I wrapped fear around it concerning my "sins" I convinced myself that I NEEDED God's forgiveness to get into heaven with him but now I say..SCREW THAT!! I let go of the fear and belief that I had imperfections...I am not imperfect...I am not flawed..I am growing and learning about a world I'm just starting to understand...I am HUMAN!! I desire compassion, love and understanding from myself and those around me..NOT forgiveness.

I am here to learn about myself and hopefully evolve in the space that I'm in. If the TRUE god does show up and doesn't allow me in..then so BE IT but I doubt that would happen...if I don't deserve heaven because I'm learning and growing in this human existance..then So Be It...I'll take the risk and stop hiding behind fear and suckiness..I take responsibility.

In this I guess you can see that I'm with you on this one. I couldn't wrap myself around a need for a Saviour when all I've ever tried to be is an evolving me and observing others doing the same. So thank you for your question...it seems to boil down to if I think I "need" saving and want another to take the "fall" for me...then the saviour idea is Ideal. I would rather be examples of his teachings, rather then rely on his "saving grace".

Loving you,

Perhaps you are right dancinfree but aether wanted people to put their two cents in as to what the atonement exactly means. She asked a lot of questions and I only attempted to give an explanation to her questions. Whether we need to be forgiven or not...well I am not a person to judge in these matters. But how to explain the atonement to someone who asks and the reasons for it? Of course I could have answered: "Oh well...you see this guy who was a jew decided that he was the son of man and he decided to bring the kingdom of god to his fellow jews. Unfortunately, many of his fellow jews rejected his message until finally some jewish leaders decided that this simple rabbi needed to die. The romans were also convinced that this jew was a threat and then they proceeded to torture him and finally put him to death for being an agitator. There is no atonement...only a brutal crime against one poor soul who had an idealistic vision of how humans should treat eachother". But I think that aether was looking for a christian perspective on it. But of course I cannot be sure. Have a good day in Utah...

[dancinfree]

Perhaps you are right dancinfree but aether wanted people to put their two cents in as to what the atonement exactly means. She asked a lot of questions and I only attempted to give an explanation to her questions. Whether we need to be forgiven or not...well I am not a person to judge in these matters. But how to explain the atonement to someone who asks and the reasons for it? Of course I could have answered: "Oh well...you see this guy who was a jew decided that he was the son of man and he decided to bring the kingdom of god to his fellow jews. Unfortunately, many of his fellow jews rejected his message until finally some jewish leaders decided that this simple rabbi needed to die. The romans were also convinced that this jew was a threat and then they proceeded to torture him and finally put him to death for being an agitator. There is no atonement...only a brutal crime against one poor soul who had an idealistic vision of how humans should treat eachother". But I think that aether was looking for a christian perspective on it. But of course I cannot be sure. Have a good day in Utah...

"I lived the life of a christian for 35 years. I believed I needed to be saved by His sacrificing of his life, for my sins. I believed that everything I did "wrong and bad" was evil and influenced by satan and that by looking to my Saviour..repenting and thereby "using" his sacrifice...I would be perfect in God's eyes when I die..if I continue on the path. Keep looking to Christ to be saved and cleansed. He sacrificed himself for me..a flawed human, who can never be perfect but can "try" to be each day. His example of selfless love is my example to others each day. With him as my guide...my merciful saviour..then I have a chance to live with God. Without him, I am lost. I cannot know the paths that I'm suppose to follow to live a "good", "righteous" life. I cannot rely on myself because I am only human..I am not an all knowing God. I need his guidance..his sacrifice to attain perfection. His influence is needed in my life each day..his examples..his path, to remind me of the higher being I should try to be. I am not enough..I need his word and example to help me.

Only through the belief in Him as my saviour, can I be washed clean and be worthy to live with God. He had to die for me because only He had the power to take my place in sin and allow me to be forgiven, for he is a God...I just can't do it on my own..there is no hope for me on my own without Jesus's saving grace because I am not a God like him..I do not hold the power to take away sins and be forgiven of God but through him, I can. My hope is to one day be worthy of his sacrifice for me. "

That was my testimony as a christian...that was my reasons and my desires for believing in Jesus and his atonement. I hope my experience can assist you in some way...thanks for allowing me to share that with you.

[papa]

well said dancinfree. Great summary. In the Christian doctrine, the key is, corrupt humans are simply not able to pay for any degree of sin, becuz even the least sin is a much bigger disturbance to the essential purity of the universe than we can ever know, a disturbance which can only be corrected by the grace gift of a fully divine and sinless being. We just don't have the "weight" to rebalance the cosmic scale.

I believed this. Now I dunno. If I (re-)discover that Jesus of Nazareth is the Christ, Issa Maschiach, the literal savior of my soul, then I will feel to praise him. I am really attracted to the concept of a gracious divine being offering himself as a sacrifice for the salvation of others. Seems like a truth to me, even if only as an archetype, or universal symbol. I honor and value any act of love. The act of taking and dissolving others' karmas is a noble one imo. I don't know how it works, if actual, but I like the idea. And yet, I am comfortable with the idea that I am responsible for my behavior and my own "salvation" (self-realization). Practically, this makes sense to me.

"Why is Earth a test? What do we need to be tested for if God is all-knowing and already knows the outcome? Why does God care whether we sin or not? Why do we need to be atoned for, why can't we just pay for our own sins?"

These are great questions imo. I am questioning these things myself. Supposedly we are put to a test because of the demands of free will. We must choose to return to God. Even if he knows which choice we will make. It's the eternal law. In this system, God would care if we sin becuz he knows as long as we do so, we will feel separate from him. He hopes to heal the gulf. In a practical sense, we return to God when we choose to do so. An ever greater awareness.

But I confess that the language of inequality, and the position of a test, never really appealed to me, and doesn't appeal to me now. I do not wish to be tested. Oneness makes sense to me. End separation from within. In this light, dancinfree's message makes a lot of sense to me.

I do not claim to be fully divine in any absolute sense. But I am fully divine in essential ways. It is truly a matter of being, in ever greater awareness. Being in ways that enhance awareness of divinity and freedom. Ways that harmonize with pure consciousness. The clear light of reality contains all things, so there is no test to pass, only blocks to awareness to remove.

I will keep this question for now, and seek, and I feel the answers are coming to me soon.

[why me]

well said dancinfree. Great summary. In the Christian doctrine, the key is, corrupt humans are simply not able to pay for any degree of sin, becuz even the least sin is a much bigger disturbance to the essential purity of the universe than we can ever know, a disturbance which can only be corrected by the grace gift of a fully divine and sinless being. We just don't have the "weight" to rebalance the cosmic scale.

I believed this. Now I dunno. If I (re-)discover that Jesus of Nazareth is the Christ, Issa Maschiach, the literal savior of my soul, then I will feel to praise him. I am really attracted to the concept of a gracious divine being offering himself as a sacrifice for the salvation of others. Seems like a truth to me, even if only as an archetype, or universal symbol. I honor and value any act of love. The act of taking and dissolving others' karmas is a noble one imo. I don't know how it works, if actual, but I like the idea. And yet, I am comfortable with the idea that I am responsible for my behavior and my own "salvation" (self-realization). Practically, this makes sense to me.

"Why is Earth a test? What do we need to be tested for if God is all-knowing and already knows the outcome? Why does God care whether we sin or not? Why do we need to be atoned for, why can't we just pay for our own sins?"

These are great questions imo. I am questioning these things myself. Supposedly we are put to a test because of the demands of free will. We must choose to return to God. Even if he knows which choice we will make. It's the eternal law. In this system, God would care if we sin becuz he knows as long as we do so, we will feel separate from him. He hopes to heal the gulf. In a practical sense, we return to God when we choose to do so. An ever greater awareness.

But I confess that the language of inequality, and the position of a test, never really appealed to me, and doesn't appeal to me now. I do not wish to be tested. Oneness makes sense to me. End separation from within. In this light, dancinfree's message makes a lot of sense to me.

I do not claim to be fully divine in any absolute sense. But I am fully divine in essential ways. It is truly a matter of being, in ever greater awareness. Being in ways that enhance awareness of divinity and freedom. Ways that harmonize with pure consciousness. The clear light of reality contains all things, so there is no test to pass, only blocks to awareness to remove.

I will keep this question for now, and seek, and I feel the answers are coming to me soon.

I suppose that many of us are in the process of questioning the basic aspects of life and death. You asked some great questions in your post. Hopefully the answers will come to you and you will be satisfied with the answers. I am rather tired of the test. As I said in one of my posts on a different thread it would be wonerful to finally relax from tests and results. But will it ever happen? And even the idea of oneness seems to be utopian but perhaps it is not impossible to feel oneness with god or with life. Its good to remove the blocks that can prevent awareness whether this is inner awareness or outer awareness.' I am alive; therefore, I am aware' would be a good sentence to pracitce. Thanks for the post...

[silverfox]

For me the whole crucifixtion and "atonement" lost uniqueness when it was discovered that hundreds of humans lost their lives the same way on a DAILY basis. Barbaric? Yes but it was normal during that time era.

Jesus broke laws to carry out his message which resulted in his crucifixition.

Even today if he walked the streets he would be labeled schizophrenic and thrown into the state hospital.

I recently purchased a documentary called "Jesus, The Complete Story". I found it to be very interesting.

My personal two cents worth: whether or not Jesus existed or truly was a son of a God, I feel his example in the way it is portrayed in the Bible has some valuable guidelines to live by.

[free thinker]

My personal two cents worth: whether or not Jesus existed or truly was a son of a God, I feel his example in the way it is portrayed in the Bible has some valuable guidelines to live by.


I agree. Why does he have to be the son of god for his words to be salient! Cant we accept them on their merit?


Free Thinker

[taruleo]

My dear Aether,

You have certainly realized, I'm sure, that you have outgrown the need to be forgiven as in Why Me's post. In fact, I don't think you ever embraced the idea that you needed it for you have not done anything "wrong" in this life, you have only started to bump into areas where growth and learning is needed. I too, struggled with the idea of the atonement and when I wrapped fear around it concerning my "sins" I convinced myself that I NEEDED God's forgiveness to get into heaven with him but now I say..SCREW THAT!! I let go of the fear and belief that I had imperfections...I am not imperfect...I am not flawed..I am growing and learning about a world I'm just starting to understand...I am HUMAN!! I desire compassion, love and understanding from myself and those around me..NOT forgiveness.

I am here to learn about myself and hopefully evolve in the space that I'm in. If the TRUE god does show up and doesn't allow me in..then so BE IT but I doubt that would happen...if I don't deserve heaven because I'm learning and growing in this human existance..then So Be It...I'll take the risk and stop hiding behind fear and suckiness..I take responsibility.

In this I guess you can see that I'm with you on this one. I couldn't wrap myself around a need for a Saviour when all I've ever tried to be is an evolving me and observing others doing the same. So thank you for your question...it seems to boil down to if I think I "need" saving and want another to take the "fall" for me...then the saviour idea is Ideal. I would rather be examples of his teachings, rather then rely on his "saving grace".

Loving you,


Dancin Free- I am with you on this one. The thing that I noticed when someone tried to explain the atonement to me was that you first had to beleive an initial non-provable premise to make it all work. I think that it so complicated that most people just give in because it is impossible to figure out.

I always found it hard to reconcile how they told me it worked and what I saw in the real world. Humans learn by making "mistakes". Trial and error. You try something and decide if it works for you or not. It seems silly to me that the natural way for humans to learn and grow would be something that we need to repent for.

Just some thoughts. I don't have any answers but I do know that any time I have tried to work within the principles of the atonement that I was hindered by it rather than helped.

[Born Free]

Misha,

To my understanding, the whole notion of Atonement relies upon the notions that:

1. one person cannot be responsible for their own behaviour/humanity, so that when they 'sin' by some measure define by 5 below, they feel they cannot bear the weight of their misdemeanors.

2. that the 'sins' they wish to divest can be projected out or transplanted onto someone/thing outside themselves.

3. that other Beings (usually supernatural in some way) have the power to take upon themselves the 'sins' divested in 2 above.

4. that the other being in 3 has some special relationship with the Divine, who can absolve said 'sins' via the intermediary and their special status.

5. further, the above process usually necessitates some other special intermediaries who are especially pleasing to 4, and can act and decide in his/her/its name (priesthood).

Now as someone else has stated, all the above relies upon the notion that being human, automatically involves 'sinning' and pissing off 4, and via that 3 and 5, otherwise all the above complex process would be a huge waste of time, and loss of power and influence for some people.

Now, I don't know about you, but while a good little StillMo I never pulled back and looked at this process from this objective perspective, but when I did, it all looked rather stupid. It becomes even more problematic when you look at the history of Gods of Nature, and the elaborate ways in which man tried to bribe/persuade/ said Gods to manage the seasons to reduce man's anxiety about his precarious position in the natural world. To my money the monotheistic God is merely a revamp of the old polytheism, but under it all, the same basic process.

So for me, I could not give a hoot what particular explanation religions offer for the Atonement, because I find them all merely mans fanciful speculating to appease their anxiety.

Further, from all my study, I find that the higher the intelligence level of the person reviewing all the above, the more likely they are to reject the projection process as infantile and incredible.

Daryl

PS: There is one special key to this whole process - that of keeping the person in 1 with low self-esteem. Low SE people are more likely to feel guilty for their humanity, and be open to the notion that others are more pleasing to 'God' that they feel. Low SE people are less likely to trust their own intelligence when they review this process and find it wanting.

PPS: I would not beat myself up for not understanding this process, if I were you! It does not make sense if you have many neurons lined up in a row, and usually requires people to have been raised up from children with its inherent folly, to have learnt how to be blind to said folly. So, rather than feel bad, you should feel proud that it seems nonsensical to you. It is nonsensical. :duh