WofW Results

[flotsam]

Well, thanks y'all for your help in brainstorming for my lesson today. It turned out to be very interesting. And, dare I say it, I think a few of my quorum members may have used their brains during the course of the lesson.

This is what ended up happening. I was intrigued by why_me's idea of focusing on not running faster than is requisite (or however you say it). So my wife and I put together a survey to sort of feel out how fast the quorum was running.

The results were really interesting.

These are the questions I asked.


1. How many hours of sleep do you usually get each night?

10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1


2. How many paid or unpaid jobs do you hold, including volunteer work?

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10


3. On average, how many hours each day do you spend performing or thinking about work-related activities?

3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 More


4. How long each day do you spend in fulfilling interaction with your family?

15 min 30 min 1hr 1hr 30min 2hrs 3hrs 4hrs More


5. On average, how often do you have feelings of discouragement each week?

Never Seldom Sometimes Frequently Just Holdin’ Out for the Millennium


6. Circle the word that describes your feelings about the demands made on your time.

Overwhelmed Stressed Reasonable Relaxed Demands? What demands?


7. On average each day how many hours do you spend on activities you really enjoy?

10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1


Check the phrase that best describes your energy level through the day.

Vim and vigor—that’s me!
I’m alert and ready to go.
I actually mean it when I tell people I’m fine.
Tired but moving
I may fall flat when I get home, but at least I get there.
I’d never make it if it weren’t for the Red Bull/coke/soda/other that I consume constantly.
Must…endure…to..end…….

8. Besides your major employment, what demand would you most like to cut out of your life?



This is the way the results came in:



1. How many hours of sleep do you usually get each night?

10
9
8 1
7 5
6 11

2. How many paid or unpaid jobs do you hold, including volunteer work?

1 4
2 6
3 3
4 2

3. On average, how many hours each day do you spend performing or thinking about work-related activities?

4 1
5 2
6 2
8 1
9 1
10 7
13 3


4. How long each day do you spend in fulfilling interaction with your family?
15 min 1
1 hr 5
1.5 hr 1
2 hrs 11
3 hrs 1
More 3


5. On average, how often do you have feelings of discouragement each week?
Never 0
Seldom 5
Sometimes 4
Frequently 5
Always 0


6. Circle the word that describes your feelings about the demands made on your time.

Overwhelmed 0
Stressed 7
Reasonable 7
Relaxed 2
None 0

7. On average each day how many hours do you spend on activities you really enjoy?

10 1
6 1
5 2
3 2
2 7
1 5

Check the phrase that best describes your energy level through the day.

Vim and vigor—that’s me! 1
I’m alert and ready to go. 3
I actually mean it when I tell people I’m fine. 4
Tired but moving 8
I may fall flat when I get home, but at least I get there. 1
I’d never make it if it weren’t for the Red Bull/coke/soda/other that I consume constantly.0
Must…endure…to..end…….0

8. Besides your major employment, what demand would you most like to cut out of your life?

No one really answered this question.

If you take this as a snapshot of our group: we don't get enough sleep, we're stressed, we spend very little fulfilling time with our families, spend most of our waking life thinking about or performing work, rarely get involved with something we really enjoy, and are frequently discouraged.

Man oh man oh man. I mean, they aren't absolute stress monkeys, but most are sitting on the unhealthy side of the line.

When I asked why our stats came out like this, one of them (good old Scott) said, "By the sweat of thy brow shalt thou work all the days of thy life" but another guy (a fellow English major) quickly countered "men are that they might have joy."

That seemed to be the crux of the matter. And it was pretty obvious which maxim most of them bought into.

I read an interesting master's thesis written by a BYU psychology student. He sent out a survey to random Mormons in Utah asking questions that would tell him if they believed in the protestant work ethic as theorized by Max Weber. You know, you can tell how righteous you are and your standing before God by how rich he makes you. So naturally you work like crazy to prove your salvation. The majority of the respondents showed that they bought into it hook, line, sinker, pole. boat.

I don't know how much good the lesson did. But I'm hoping that some of them will think about their lives a little more and actively try to find what makes them happy. I know how difficult an undertaking that is, trying to do it myself at the moment. :Crazy:

[why me]

Well, thanks y'all for your help in brainstorming for my lesson today. It turned out to be very interesting. And, dare I say it, I think a few of my quorum members may have used their brains during the course of the lesson.

This is what ended up happening. I was intrigued by why_me's idea of focusing on not running faster than is requisite (or however you say it). So my wife and I put together a survey to sort of feel out how fast the quorum was running.

The results were really interesting.

These are the questions I asked.




This is the way the results came in:



1. How many hours of sleep do you usually get each night?

10
9
8 1
7 5
6 11

2. How many paid or unpaid jobs do you hold, including volunteer work?

1 4
2 6
3 3
4 2

3. On average, how many hours each day do you spend performing or thinking about work-related activities?

4 1
5 2
6 2
8 1
9 1
10 7
13 3


4. How long each day do you spend in fulfilling interaction with your family?
15 min 1
1 hr 5
1.5 hr 1
2 hrs 11
3 hrs 1
More 3


5. On average, how often do you have feelings of discouragement each week?
Never 0
Seldom 5
Sometimes 4
Frequently 5
Always 0


6. Circle the word that describes your feelings about the demands made on your time.

Overwhelmed 0
Stressed 7
Reasonable 7
Relaxed 2
None 0

7. On average each day how many hours do you spend on activities you really enjoy?

10 1
6 1
5 2
3 2
2 7
1 5

Check the phrase that best describes your energy level through the day.

Vim and vigor—that’s me! 1
I’m alert and ready to go. 3
I actually mean it when I tell people I’m fine. 4
Tired but moving 8
I may fall flat when I get home, but at least I get there. 1
I’d never make it if it weren’t for the Red Bull/coke/soda/other that I consume constantly.0
Must…endure…to..end…….0

8. Besides your major employment, what demand would you most like to cut out of your life?

No one really answered this question.

If you take this as a snapshot of our group: we don't get enough sleep, we're stressed, we spend very little fulfilling time with our families, spend most of our waking life thinking about or performing work, rarely get involved with something we really enjoy, and are frequently discouraged.

Man oh man oh man. I mean, they aren't absolute stress monkeys, but most are sitting on the unhealthy side of the line.

When I asked why our stats came out like this, one of them (good old Scott) said, "By the sweat of thy brow shalt thou work all the days of thy life" but another guy (a fellow English major) quickly countered "men are that they might have joy."

That seemed to be the crux of the matter. And it was pretty obvious which maxim most of them bought into.

I read an interesting master's thesis written by a BYU psychology student. He sent out a survey to random Mormons in Utah asking questions that would tell him if they believed in the protestant work ethic as theorized by Max Weber. You know, you can tell how righteous you are and your standing before God by how rich he makes you. So naturally you work like crazy to prove your salvation. The majority of the respondents showed that they bought into it hook, line, sinker, pole. boat.

I don't know how much good the lesson did. But I'm hoping that some of them will think about their lives a little more and actively try to find what makes them happy. I know how difficult an undertaking that is, trying to do it myself at the moment. :Crazy:


Thanks flotsam for the lesson that you gave on sunday. I wasn't there but it was right on target and produced results. The results were a foregone conclusion. Life in a mean and lean capitalist work ethic is killing the very fibres of our souls. It is also imo the greatest threat to church philosophy and understanding. We, the people, are so exhausted by the 'made for profit' way of life that we no longer have the thinking patterns to see our own oppressed situations. And active church members find the juggling act of work, family, church life, and private leisure time to be a trying experience. Many put church by the way side or just see church life to be anti-family because of church time consumption. You need to throw in some socialisms the next time without saying the word itself. I use the word humanism for socialism. For example: If the human being is formed by circumstances, how can we make these circumstances humanly formed? What is a humanly formed circumstance? This carries into creating a family-friendly work environment, a human-friendly learning environment in schools and a human friendly social system where people are valued for being human beings and not for being work horses. You gave a great lesson that created a great deal of critical reflection. You are a REVOLUTIONARY! :D

Oh by the way...didn't you say that you were a senior member. You seem to have lost your senior status. You lost a few posts along the way. This has also happened to me. Where do these missing posts go? You were a senior member right? Maybe I am going nuts... :p

[silverfox]

Oh by the way...didn't you say that you were a senior member. You seem to have lost your senior status. You lost a few posts along the way. This has also happened to me. Where do these missing posts go? You were a senior member right? Maybe I am going nuts... :p

From time to time a member will request that threads they have created be deleted due to anonymity issues regarding them and their families. In some cases TBM spouses discover the participation of their loved ones on this site and obviously that causes problems.

We recently received a request from a member to remove all threads that they had created and all posts within other threads they had posted.

It is unfortunate and we apologize for any inconvenience this causes.

[flotsam]

From time to time a member will request that threads they have created be deleted due to anonymity issues regarding them and their families. In some cases TBM spouses discover the participation of their loved ones on this site and obviously that causes problems.

We recently received a request from a member to remove all threads that they had created and all posts within other threads they had posted.

It is unfortunate and we apologize for any inconvenience this causes.


Good thing I save all my posts to a Word document before I send them in.

I think it's funny how Post-Mo participation can be seen as being so bad that one would want to expunge oneself from the records. It's like we're pornography or something.

We should have an alternate URL. Something like nakedmormons.com.

I just checked and that URL is not taken!

[flotsam]

Thanks flotsam for the lesson that you gave on sunday. I wasn't there but it was right on target and produced results. The results were a foregone conclusion. Life in a mean and lean capitalist work ethic is killing the very fibres of our souls. It is also imo the greatest threat to church philosophy and understanding. We, the people, are so exhausted by the 'made for profit' way of life that we no longer have the thinking patterns to see our own oppressed situations. And active church members find the juggling act of work, family, church life, and private leisure time to be a trying experience. Many put church by the way side or just see church life to be anti-family because of church time consumption. You need to throw in some socialisms the next time without saying the word itself. I use the word humanism for socialism. For example: If the human being is formed by circumstances, how can we make these circumstances humanly formed? What is a humanly formed circumstance? This carries into creating a family-friendly work environment, a human-friendly learning environment in schools and a human friendly social system where people are valued for being human beings and not for being work horses. You gave a great lesson that created a great deal of critical reflection. You are a REVOLUTIONARY! :D

Yeah, I would have done more along that line, but fact is, the discussion was rolling so well that we ran out of time before I could point those sorts of things out. That's one of the problems with the classroom format in church, there is either waaaay too much time because people don't know how to teach, or there is waaay too little time to actually talk about what you're talking about. And there's no continuity from lesson to lesson. (That would actually take work on the part of the teacher!) So we kind of get Skittle lessons. Bite sized. Discrete. Unnourishing.

[dancinfree]

Thanks flotsam for the lesson that you gave on sunday. I wasn't there but it was right on target and produced results. The results were a foregone conclusion. Life in a mean and lean capitalist work ethic is killing the very fibres of our souls. It is also imo the greatest threat to church philosophy and understanding. We, the people, are so exhausted by the 'made for profit' way of life that we no longer have the thinking patterns to see our own oppressed situations. And active church members find the juggling act of work, family, church life, and private leisure time to be a trying experience. Many put church by the way side or just see church life to be anti-family because of church time consumption. You need to throw in some socialisms the next time without saying the word itself. I use the word humanism for socialism. For example: If the human being is formed by circumstances, how can we make these circumstances humanly formed? What is a humanly formed circumstance? This carries into creating a family-friendly work environment, a human-friendly learning environment in schools and a human friendly social system where people are valued for being human beings and not for being work horses. You gave a great lesson that created a great deal of critical reflection. You are a REVOLUTIONARY! :D


You don't really think I'm going to let you get away with that tripe, do you?...hehehe.... Capitalism is the reason for all the time-consuming insanity? Are you up in the night?...I think you've been overcome with the evil of socialism..hehehehe. When I was in the church actively and because of the church's teachings, mind you, not capitalism..I was taught to always be anxiously engaged...doing something good, righteous, work hard, take care of my family, do good to my neighbor, read scriptures faithfully, make good nutritious dinners, gain knowledge, taking lessons to build my character..soccer, dance, piano... don't be a slacker because if you had idle time, "they" knew what I would do with it..god forbid..watch a porno flick or masturbate...pray always lest the evil one come lead me down to hell. Don't ever say no to a calling because I would be saying NO to God! Capitalism? I think not...good old fashioned hell bound guilt trip baby!! Be a missionary to my friends and neighbors..not only sins of commission but what about sins of omission?..watch out for those. Keep busy, industrious, it's the latter day saints way...do you think the pioneers got here and established good ole utah by smelling the flowers along the way? hehehehe capitalism? You should be ashamed...hehehe. Serve, SERVE, SERVE!! Temple attendance...it teaches your kids your commitment to the Lord :Puking. Don't forget church attendance..all meetings, every sunday..or else, and canning drives and DI drives and cleaning the church and visiting teaching above all else and (should I go on and on?) Basically, if I'm busy doing all these "wonderful", "righteous", things..blessings will pour down from heaven to me and my family, not as a way to get more money...OH, NO...it's how I prove that I'm worthy to get into heaven darling!!! :slap: If I take time off, make sure I'm serving the Lord..even while I sleep...Capitalism? bah, humbug :D

[why me]

From time to time a member will request that threads they have created be deleted due to anonymity issues regarding them and their families. In some cases TBM spouses discover the participation of their loved ones on this site and obviously that causes problems.

We recently received a request from a member to remove all threads that they had created and all posts within other threads they had posted.

It is unfortunate and we apologize for any inconvenience this causes.

I understand but I lost some posts in the process. I didn't ask for any deletions but my number count went down. I couldn't understand what happened. Is this the explanation that you gave or is there another reason for the drop in count? I am only curious... :confused:

[why me]

You don't really think I'm going to let you get away with that tripe, do you?...hehehe.... Capitalism is the reason for all the time-consuming insanity? Are you up in the night?...I think you've been overcome with the evil of socialism..hehehehe. When I was in the church actively and because of the church's teachings, mind you, not capitalism..I was taught to always be anxiously engaged...doing something good, righteous, work hard, take care of my family, do good to my neighbor, read scriptures faithfully, make good nutritious dinners, gain knowledge, taking lessons to build my character..soccer, dance, piano... don't be a slacker because if you had idle time, "they" knew what I would do with it..god forbid..watch a porno flick or masturbate...pray always lest the evil one come lead me down to hell. Don't ever say no to a calling because I would be saying NO to God! Capitalism? I think not...good old fashioned hell bound guilt trip baby!! Be a missionary to my friends and neighbors..not only sins of commission but what about sins of omission?..watch out for those. Keep busy, industrious, it's the latter day saints way...do you think the pioneers got here and established good ole utah by smelling the flowers along the way? hehehehe capitalism? You should be ashamed...hehehe. Serve, SERVE, SERVE!! Temple attendance...it teaches your kids your commitment to the Lord :Puking. Don't forget church attendance..all meetings, every sunday..or else, and canning drives and DI drives and cleaning the church and visiting teaching above all else and (should I go on and on?) Basically, if I'm busy doing all these "wonderful", "righteous", things..blessings will pour down from heaven to me and my family, not as a way to get more money...OH, NO...it's how I prove that I'm worthy to get into heaven darling!!! :slap: If I take time off, make sure I'm serving the Lord..even while I sleep...Capitalism? bah, humbug :D


Lets see dancinfree what can the doctor precribe for you?? Ummm...did you try the socialist website that I advised you to take a pick at? It can be found at www.monthlyreview.org As you can see I am a revolutionary missionary always trying to get new members for the Party cause.....Oh by the way...yes you are right the church requires a lot of time and work but my point is that with the hectic life pace that is now in place in school and at work and the weakening of family time the church faces a problem in having members donate valuable time---time which existed more in the past than now. It is capitalism that is commodifying our time and making free time a scarce resource...Oh by the way...is that a Utah laugh--- hehehehe? Or is it a feminine laugh? In my neck of the woods we laugh this way---hahahahaha. It is much more hearty in tone.... :p

[papa]

nakedmormons.com :D

must...endure...to...end... :D

[free thinker]

You don't really think I'm going to let you get away with that tripe, do you?...hehehe.... Capitalism is the reason for all the time-consuming insanity? Are you up in the night?...I think you've been overcome with the evil of socialism..hehehehe. When I was in the church actively and because of the church's teachings, mind you, not capitalism..I was taught to always be anxiously engaged...doing something good, righteous, work hard, take care of my family, do good to my neighbor, read scriptures faithfully, make good nutritious dinners, gain knowledge, taking lessons to build my character..soccer, dance, piano... don't be a slacker because if you had idle time, "they" knew what I would do with it..god forbid..watch a porno flick or masturbate...pray always lest the evil one come lead me down to hell. Don't ever say no to a calling because I would be saying NO to God! Capitalism? I think not...good old fashioned hell bound guilt trip baby!! Be a missionary to my friends and neighbors..not only sins of commission but what about sins of omission?..watch out for those. Keep busy, industrious, it's the latter day saints way...do you think the pioneers got here and established good ole utah by smelling the flowers along the way? hehehehe capitalism? You should be ashamed...hehehe. Serve, SERVE, SERVE!! Temple attendance...it teaches your kids your commitment to the Lord . Don't forget church attendance..all meetings, every sunday..or else, and canning drives and DI drives and cleaning the church and visiting teaching above all else and (should I go on and on?) Basically, if I'm busy doing all these "wonderful", "righteous", things..blessings will pour down from heaven to me and my family, not as a way to get more money...OH, NO...it's how I prove that I'm worthy to get into heaven darling!!! If I take time off, make sure I'm serving the Lord..even while I sleep...Capitalism? bah, humbug
__________________


I agree whole heartedly!! Sorry why-me. Not buying the capitalism thing!!

My hard work over the past twelve years has landed me in a great spot. I can take a lot of time for myself and yet maintian a decent standard of living. Living in a capitalist society has afforded me this freedom. Also I make contributions to the less fortunate with extra income I have. The system is working fine for me!!

Also there are about a billion Chinese and East Indians, who are beginning to engage the capitalist mindset, and socio-economic system. Better not lay back too much sports fans or your gonna find yourself eating their dust!! Read :The World Is Flat" by the NY Times columnist. Forgot his name. This is reality!! We are not moving globally toward socialism. We are moving away from it!!

Free Thinker

PS (Why-me, I am not going to engage you in another esoteric debate on the merits of socio-economic systems. We have already done that, and I think it would be a re-hashing with no new results. I mean no disrespect, but I think you are in a Quixotic quest promoting socialism in our current enviroment.)

[flotsam]

:slap: If I take time off, make sure I'm serving the Lord..even while I sleep...Capitalism? bah, humbug :D

Well, I think what why_me was trying to point out is that when one is a TBM, one is preyed upon by BOTH capitalism and Mormonism. And you must admit, both are very interested in making sure you work hard. So having to keep up with both is difficult.

[silverfox]

I understand but I lost some posts in the process. I didn't ask for any deletions but my number count went down. I couldn't understand what happened. Is this the explanation that you gave or is there another reason for the drop in count? I am only curious... :confused:

Sorry for the confusion.

Entire threads were deleted which will include any member's replies. This results in your posting count going down.

The threads were deleted because the member who created the thread requested it for anonymity purposes.

[flotsam]

The threads were deleted because the member who created the thread requested it for anonymity purposes.

Man, I am just DYING to know who this is. Any chance of blackmail do you think? :D

[dancinfree]

Lets see dancinfree what can the doctor precribe for you?? Ummm...did you try the socialist website that I advised you to take a pick at? It can be found at www.monthlyreview.org As you can see I am a revolutionary missionary always trying to get new members for the Party cause.....Oh by the way...yes you are right the church requires a lot of time and work but my point is that with the hectic life pace that is now in place in school and at work and the weakening of family time the church faces a problem in having members donate valuable time---time which existed more in the past than now. It is capitalism that is commodifying our time and making free time a scarce resource...Oh by the way...is that a Utah laugh--- hehehehe? Or is it a feminine laugh? In my neck of the woods we laugh this way---hahahahaha. It is much more hearty in tone.... :p

why me,
I prefer the more feminine-touched laugh with a hehehe...I'm not one for a hearty type..hahaha just doesn't do it for me..hehehehe. Ahhh, that's better.

Btw, are the Japanese capitalist? I was just wondering because I know a few Japanese and they work like the dickens, no family life..bangin it out like a banshee (sp?) but I didn't know that it was the evil capitalist society that generates this....just wondering. I have also found that when I truly believe in something, I tend to find all the things in life that support my view..do you find that too? Like when I was pregnant, everyone seemed to be pregnant too! It's just funny, I think.

I haven't worked outside the home for twenty years...we live simple lives..my husband is home 80 percent of the year..mmmm...yet, when I was active, I still couldn't quite fit in all that I "needed" to do to get into heaven. Was I trying to be a good capitalist? Hell no, I was trying to be a "good" child of God. Good thing I gave that up...now I truly do find ample time to love, live and just "be". Now, that I don't buy the whole concept of trying to be worthy...life is good because I choose it..I decide what's important for me..not the church's or government's ideas...ahhh, pure choice baby!!!

Oh, did I say I needed a doctor? When I do, I will definitely choose a evil capitalist one...actually, the insurance we have follows the good ole socialist line..gotta luv the good ole US of A...oh well.

You handled my sarcasm quite well...good for you. It's time for me to go have a hearty laugh...catch you later. Now, give me a hearty laugh! You are a delight!

[aether]

Btw, are the Japanese capitalist? I was just wondering because I know a few Japanese and they work like the dickens, no family life..bangin it out like a banshee (sp?) but I didn't know that it was the evil capitalist society that generates this....just wondering.

Actually mom, the Japanese economic system is quite capitalist, although less so than America, if I'm not mistaken. I think the workaholic thing has something to do with the Japanese psyche though.. they have a whole different take on life's purposes than do the Americans.

[dancinfree]

Actually mom, the Japanese economic system is quite capitalist, although less so than America, if I'm not mistaken. I think the workaholic thing has something to do with the Japanese psyche though.. they have a whole different take on life's purposes than do the Americans.

Thanks for the info...I wasn't really sure on that. I guess I could have called you for that one, huh? You're an angel....talk to you soon. :)

[why me]

Well, I think what why_me was trying to point out is that when one is a TBM, one is preyed upon by BOTH capitalism and Mormonism. And you must admit, both are very interested in making sure you work hard. So having to keep up with both is difficult.

You did understand my point. Although I wouldn't use the word prey for the mormon church, I would use it for the capitalist system. I think that I was trying to point out that active church members need to juggle their time more due to time limitations brought on by an intensification of the capitalist economic system. I know from my students that many are stressed due to time constraints and exhaustion. It is this process of human capital upgrading that is keeping people hopping back to school in order to be competitive with their 'neighbor'. Plus the amount of work that people are engaged in has also increased due to productivity pressures. And then there is the family time that one can search for in vain because of the busy schedule of family members and finally you have church callings. But the enemy is not church callings but rather the economic system which is limiting our personal time. But church members are not blaming the economic system; rather they are supporting it. It became clear to me a few months ago when I began a search on google about Joseph Smith. I discovered a lot of hostility toward the LDS church which gave me quite a surprise. But something in particular struck me as odd. Former members were claiming that the church was anti-family because of the amount of time needed for church positions. But in truth, no one is forced to accept callings that can overwhelm the individual and one can always decline. But the former mormon complaint about anti-family was off the mark. The church has always been a calling church. Without people doing callings, the church would fall apart. But what has changed is the amount of time that is available for callings. Free time is scarce nowadays and people want to use more and more of this meager time to be with family and not be taken away from family by doing church callings. Hence. some fall away and celebrate their extra family time and claim that the church is anti-family. But the real enemy is the social system which is taking more and more of our common time away from us. Strange but the church actually encourages members to constantly upgrade themselves through schooling for life practices, thereby insuring the success of the system that is exploiting our time and thereby putting more pressure on members. But on the other hand, without upgrading your knowledge constantly a person can find themselves uncompetitive in the labor market. I think that Utah has the highest rate of Americans working more than one job, not because of greed but because of survival. The wages can be low and people need to work two jobs. Then there is family, church callings and other worries. And yet, 69% voted Republican to cement the system into their lives. It doesn't make sense or does it? :)
The church does not consider economics and the effect that a social system can have on the individual. For example, Lithuania, a new independent country which was a part of the Soviet Union duing the old days. It was just reported that more Lithuanians are killing themselves now then ever before especially within my age group. These people can not adjust to the new capitalist economic system but young people are also killing themselves at an alarming rate because of family problems and hopelessness. The new system is killing people but I cannot take a social darwinist attitude and say: 'The weak will die but the strong will survive' or 'I am okay so you can be too'. How to create a caring system in a post-something world? Sorry for the long post!

Now...dancinfree may claim that it is the choices that people make that cause the problem but is it a matter of choice? And freethinker may say that through hard work, he succeeded and found his spot. But we need to take a look at the collective state of society and try not to focus on 'me' the individual. I think the 'I' mentality doesn't fly with me but that is only my opinion. :)

[dancinfree]

Now...dancinfree may claim that it is the choices that people make that cause the problem but is it a matter of choice? And freethinker may say that through hard work, he succeeded and found his spot. But we need to take a look at the collective state of society and try not to focus on 'me' the individual. I think the 'I' mentality doesn't fly with me but that is only my opinion. :)


Yes, it is the choices I make that create the society I am in. I see where there is forced morality, forced equality and I individually try to make a difference by leading a life that doesn't support that system as much as I can.
Individual choices lead to societal choices and it's my passion in life to choose those things that lead myself and those who choose to, to a life of liberty as a society. It's easy to point fingers at a group but it's not so easy to turn the hand toward myself and do something about it as an individual. We both are doing the same thing but you look at the group and I look at the individual in the group. You, individually are supporting a system that works for you..I am doing the same for me...just coming from different paths. Isin't life grand!!

I've got to go..I'm tired. My capitalistic butt chose to go to the gym, do laundry and chores with the kids, weed the garden and read my history book. Now, I choose to take a hot bath...now where's my $$, Why me? hehehehe :slap:

[aether]

I think the 'I' mentality doesn't fly with me but that is only my opinion. :)

Grrr... this is settting off mental alarms in my head. But I'm trying not to get involved.

Tell me though, have you read Ayn Rand's Anthem? If not.. I think you should, just to get an idealistic look at the sacredness of capitalism.

[flotsam]

Grrr... this is settting off mental alarms in my head. But I'm trying not to get involved.

Tell me though, have you read Ayn Rand's Anthem? If not.. I think you should, just to get an idealistic look at the sacredness of capitalism.


Oh man. I remember my Ayn Rand summer. And what a summer it was. I was unemployed and happened to have a copy of Atlas Shrugged on hand. I sat and read it (all except the famous 80 page philosophic/economic diatribe toward the end - Galt's radio address). And I must say. I was hooked.

I think Ayn can really speak to ego of a person. And I'm not saying that's bad. The ego is important as self defining mechanism. And she really gets it going.

There was one thing that bugged me though. I read Anthem, then The Fountainhead, and then tried to read We The Living (had to quit because I realized it was the same plot with the same characters as the previous three), and never found any mention of children. All the hero's were these virulent men who liked to ravish, or women who liked to be ravished by men who liked to ravish. The only time I found children were a brief mention of them in the part where some characters are walking through Galt's utopian community. But, of course, they're good-looking strong-willed little souls, just like the adults.

Huh, I thought, there seems to be no room in objectivism for children. That's weird. Because children are everywhere. They need to be accounted for in the larger scheme of things. And Ayn couldn't account for them. She was all progress and individualism and capitalism.

She was also completely convinced that she was right. Which annoys me. TBMs are completely convinced that they're right. Which annoys me. In fact, the structure of her novels reminded of Mormon morality stories. There is right and there is wrong. Those who do the right thing win, those who do the wrong thing die ignominious deaths and are held in contempt by right thinking individuals.

But I must admit, Ayn had passion. Her characters have passion. They stand up to huge forces and fight for what they think is right. They're archetypal heroes. And I think that's what appealed to me. I was a Mormon boy who let my church define me. And Ayn was the first person to say, "Hey kid. You have a will. Use it."

I'm grateful to her for that. But her idea of will seems hamhanded to me now. Kind of brutish. I've had to look elsewhere to find ideas on how to use my will with finesse.

[why me]

Yes, it is the choices I make that create the society I am in. I see where there is forced morality, forced equality and I individually try to make a difference by leading a life that doesn't support that system as much as I can.
Individual choices lead to societal choices and it's my passion in life to choose those things that lead myself and those who choose to, to a life of liberty as a society. It's easy to point fingers at a group but it's not so easy to turn the hand toward myself and do something about it as an individual. We both are doing the same thing but you look at the group and I look at the individual in the group. You, individually are supporting a system that works for you..I am doing the same for me...just coming from different paths. Isin't life grand!!

I've got to go..I'm tired. My capitalistic butt chose to go to the gym, do laundry and chores with the kids, weed the garden and read my history book. Now, I choose to take a hot bath...now where's my $$, Why me? hehehehe :slap:

Ahhh... dancinfree...I have some laundry that needs scrubing...would you mind? But then...again since you work out maybe I shouldn't tease you too often...you seem to want to smack me around... :slap: and it could hurt....hahahahahah.

[why me]

Grrr... this is settting off mental alarms in my head. But I'm trying not to get involved.

Tell me though, have you read Ayn Rand's Anthem? If not.. I think you should, just to get an idealistic look at the sacredness of capitalism.

I would not want to let off any of your mental alarms aether. hehehehe (Utah laugh). I think that Ayn Rand has seen her day. She tends to be more on the shelf than off the shelf. But yes, she was a great apologist for capitalism. You would love Hayek. He is still being discussed and was very influential as a proponent of the free market. Look him up...especially his book 'The Road to Serfdom'. I hope that all is well with your studying and college life.... :)

[aether]

Huh, I thought, there seems to be no room in objectivism for children. That's weird. Because children are everywhere. They need to be accounted for in the larger scheme of things. And Ayn couldn't account for them. She was all progress and individualism and capitalism.


I don't understand where you're coming from here. Children don't fit into capitalism. Or socialism. Or anarchism. They don't need to, since they can't participate in the economy anyway. People will take care of their children no matter what government they subscribe to.

[flotsam]

I don't understand where you're coming from here. Children don't fit into capitalism. Or socialism. Or anarchism. They don't need to, since they can't participate in the economy anyway. People will take care of their children no matter what government they subscribe to.

Well, I was talking about objectivism, the rugged individualism Rand was propounding. As for children participating in the economy. I think they do a lot. My children are certainly a target market, as evidenced by the ads on Nickelodeon. And traditionally children were as much a part of the work force as anyone else. It's only recently that children have gained an "exempt" status.

Anyway, I was talking objectivism.

[aether]

Well, I was talking about objectivism, the rugged individualism Rand was propounding.

<snip>

Anyway, I was talking objectivism.

Well in that case, I still don't see the problem here. I believe if you have read Anthem, and/or The Virtue of Selfishness, she says that people should be completely egoistic and individualistic. But she also says that does not mean blocking everyone else out. Love is a selfish feeling, in that it is based on our own values that we love someone, and it also makes us feel good. The same goes with children. It's human instinct to take care of children, therefore we can follow our human instinct and take care of them.

Objectivism does not mean abandoning children, or anyone else you care for.

[dancinfree]

Ahhh... dancinfree...I have some laundry that needs scrubing...would you mind? But then...again since you work out maybe I shouldn't tease you too often...you seem to want to smack me around... :slap: and it could hurt....hahahahahah.
Oh why me...I could smack you around a bit (I can be forceful when I need to me :slap: )...and maybe it "could" hurt but I would make sure you enjoyed it too...hehehehe...don't get me started. Thanks for the giggles..nice to lighten this all up a bit every now and then, huh?