Moroni , put down your horn, and come down off the temple!!

[free thinker]

Enough already!! You've been hissing forth for 175 years. Dont your feet get cold?


After I read Grant Palmers book " An Insiders View of Mormon Origins" , I realized that the book of mormon is fiction. Then I thought how strange it was that so many people think this guy was an historical figure. I used to be one of them!! HA!! It's kinda funny, and surreal ,when you think about it!

Anyway, Moroni come on down!! I'll bet you can find work in a good jazz band man!!
:cool:

Free Thinker

[nikki]

Enough already!! You've been hissing forth for 175 years. Dont your feet get cold?


After I read Grant Palmers book " An Insiders View of Mormon Origins" , I realized that the book of mormon is fiction. Then I thought how strange it was that so many people think this guy was an historical figure. I used to be one of them!! HA!! It's kinda funny, and surreal ,when you think about it!

Anyway, Moroni come on down!! I'll bet you can find work in a good jazz band man!!
:cool:

Free Thinker

He's bee playing that horn long enough, Moroni should be real good by now..... maybe he will even want a name change! :D

Got a laugh out of the post!

[peter_mary]

I heard this from a guy in high school (LONG time ago) and I don't know if he made it up, or if this is an old joke that you've all heard a million times. But in case you haven't...

Why is Moroni on top of the temple?






Wait for it...






Here it comes....




Ready?




He's waiting for a virgin to enter so he can blow that horn!

(My apologies to those of you who really DID make it until you were married in the temple! ;) )

Paul

[free thinker]

Gotta admit! I never heard that joke!! :D

Made me laugh out loud!! Shakespeare said that " all truth is spoken in jest". Guess that's why it's funny eh?

Free Thinker

[bigeddy]

I sit here marveling at the wit and wisdom of all of you. I am grateful for it. For so many years I attended meetings looking for exactly this and never finding it. A year after my daughter's marriage she and her husband decided to get sealed in the Jordan River Temp. I could not go because I had stopped attending Priesthood meeting. I had stopped attending because I got sick and tired of the drivel and stupidity. Some of the men w/ me in the High Priest Quorum were BYU professors and etc.; very capable and wise in their own fields, yet their comments, answers and questions in the quorum were so juvenile, repetitive and lacking in wisdom that I could not force myself to attend. So I quit. I find all I was looking for here--from you, thanks.

Ed
ps I could not go into the Temp but my father who had molested this daughter and had never dealt with it--he could, go figure.

[silverfox]

I sit here marveling at the wit and wisdom of all of you. I am grateful for it. For so many years I attended meetings looking for exactly this and never finding it. A year after my daughter's marriage she and her husband decided to get sealed in the Jordan River Temp. I could not go because I had stopped attending Priesthood meeting. I had stopped attending because I got sick and tired of the drivel and stupidity. Some of the men w/ me in the High Priest Quorum were BYU professors and etc.; very capable and wise in their own fields, yet their comments, answers and questions in the quorum were so juvenile, repetitive and lacking in wisdom that I could not force myself to attend. So I quit. I find all I was looking for here--from you, thanks.

Ed
ps I could not go into the Temp but my father who had molested this daughter and had never dealt with it--he could, go figure.

My daughter and her hubby were sealed a year ago. Of course, I couldn't go in and didn't really "want" to but it was compounded the aspect that the church likes division. They like to keep people divided. What harm in letting a mother witness something that is very important to her daughter? It may mean nothing to me but it was very important to her and she wanted me there only for that reason. I don't feel bad that I "missed" it, like I said, doesn't mean anything to mean but it is painful that so many have to experience this without their very close loving families. And for WHAT?

My grandchild was blessed last month. We attended. Of course, my hubby couldn't stand in the circle with the alcoholic, the theif, I could go on. It wasn't important to us, we don't care and hope our granddaugther is never sealed in the temple, faithful to the church all her life, etc, it was again the fact that it was important to my daughter.

However, the consoling part is that although hubby couldn't stand in the stupid circle he watches grandbaby on his days off while daughter works and will have the most important loving meaningful impact in her little life. More powerful than a circle of men with a made up priesthood. Our daughter loves and trusts us and knows in spite of our non belief we love her and our grandbaby and NOTHING NOTHING is more powerful than that.

Life is good

[lisa]

I thought we were not suppose to worship golden idols. I guess I was wrong.

as I see Moroni is nothing more than a golden Idol.

Lisa :D

[nate]

I thought we were not suppose to worship golden idols. I guess I was wrong.

as I see Moroni is nothing more than a golden Idol.

Lisa :D


Speaking of Temples and idolatry, thought you might like to see this site:

http://www.helpingmormons.org/occult_symbols.htm

[silverfox]

Speaking of Temples and idolatry, thought you might like to see this site:

http://www.helpingmormons.org/occult_symbols.htm

That was a really interesting site. I don't have time to read it right now but did look at the pix and the captions - very interesting.

I've never researched much about the symbols on the temples - does the article give the church's description of them? Or is there a book anyone knows about? I'm interested now in seeing how Joe was using the symbols in his way of thinking.

[nate]

That was a really interesting site. I don't have time to read it right now but did look at the pix and the captions - very interesting.

I've never researched much about the symbols on the temples - does the article give the church's description of them? Or is there a book anyone knows about? I'm interested now in seeing how Joe was using the symbols in his way of thinking.

The only explanations that I've ever heard for these is that the sun, moon, and stars represent the 3 kingdoms of heaven. However, this explanation is insufficient. Why an upside down star? Why all the phases of the moon? Why a known symbol for Baal as the sun? Also, it doesn't touch on the presence of the All-Seeing Eye, a known Masonic symbol on the temple.

An excellent book on the history behind the symbolism (and much more more) is The Book of Hiram, by Christopher Knight & Robert Lomas. Excellent read!

[peter_mary]

The only explanations that I've ever heard for these is that the sun, moon, and stars represent the 3 kingdoms of heaven. However, this explanation is insufficient. Why an upside down star? Why all the phases of the moon? Why a known symbol for Baal as the sun? Also, it doesn't touch on the presence of the All-Seeing Eye, a known Masonic symbol on the temple.

An excellent book on the history behind the symbolism (and much more more) is The Book of Hiram, by Christopher Knight & Robert Lomas. Excellent read!

I've not studied this in detail, but D. Michael Quinn makes a very strong case for early Mormonism's fascination with "magic world view" stuff, the occult, astrology, phrenology, etc. And obviously Masonry played a key role in the establishment of the Temple ceremony, so why not the temple decorations, too? I would be reluctant to associate it with overt satanism or a nod toward Baal...I just don't think Joseph et al. were sophisticated enough to realize that the symbols of the occult that were mixed in with their home-spun sense of spirituality and religion were understood at the level this website suggests. In other words, I don't think there was a deliberate, hidden occult underbelly to the early Church...it was just a part of the weave and fabric of the day, adopted and adapted to meet the needs of the early saints, in much the same way the Old Testament was adapted and adopted to meet the needs of the early Christian Church. The symbols take on their own, newly interpreted meanings, even though upon further study, we learn about their pagan origins. Just like nobody in the Christian Church associates bunnies and Easter eggs with pagan rites, that is where their roots lie. Instead, those symbols were modified in a new system and have little or none of the residual pagan meaning to the parents who decorate and hide eggs on Easter morning with their kids.

But I'm just guessing...Anyone else done any study on this beyond "Early Mormonism and the Magic World View"?

Paul

[Jeff_Ricks]

One thing I find interesting about symbols is that although they have no power in and of themselves I think they can act somewhat like genetic markers that can be used to help determine the lineage of a particular paradigm or worldview. For example, Mormonism’s parent paradigms are primarily Masonry and Christianity. We know of those connections through historical documents but the connections are also evidenced in the symbols it “unconsciously” adopted along with the elements of those paradigms. The symbols weren’t necessarily acquired through a conscious decision that was based on knowledge of a particular good or evil power a symbol possessed, as some suggest in their literature on the subject. Instead the symbols were picked up through a type of osmosis. Joseph tinkered with masonry, and in the process he adopted some of its symbols, mostly likely in complete ignorance of their origins. I like any opportunity to call Joseph completely ignorant (although I know he wasn’t). ;) The symbols themselves are not all that important. It’s the philosophy or worldview that’s the more salient element in the transaction. The symbols were just along for the ride. The symbols of masonry were probably likewise picked up through a similar unconscious transfer when the basis of its philosophy was formed, borrowing from one or more known at that time, which indicates again, the origins of its parent philosophies or paradigms. And thus symbols can possibly be useful as genetic markers for providing clues to origins of cultures, philosophies and religions. At least I think they can.

The western worldview’s connections to its Greek and Roman origins is evidenced by the many Greek and Roman symbols found in our culture. The designs of the Capital, White House and Lincoln Monument show undeniable similarities to the Greek Parthenon for instance. And the philosophies of the west can likewise be traced back to a number of Greek philosophers. It’s the philosophies we acquired from them that shaped our culture. The symbols were just along for the ride.

The letter A in our alphabet might trace its origins to the pyramids of Giza (that’s only an uninformed guess off the top of my head as I write this). The Washington Monument certainly can be traced back to Egypt’s obelisks. And elements of the western worldview can be traced back to Egypt. The madonna and child adopted by Christianity can be traced back to Isis and her suckling child Harpocrates, the child of Horus the king.

Elements of our links to the Sumerian civilization are also attested to in some of our symbols. While the clock is not a symbol per se, its four quarters of 6 hours each, as well as its 60 second minute and 60 minute hour, as well as the fact that 6:00 AM coincides with sunrise and 6:00 PM with sunset, all can be traced back to the base 60 numerical system of the sun worshiping Sumerian culture 7,000 to 10,000 years ago. Sumer assigned the number 6 to the sun. The infamous number 666 comes directly from what is known as the magic square of the sun, the origins of which are traced back to Babylon and likely to Sumer. Ironically, the Greek words for Jesus and Christ (iesous christos) are directly derived from the pagan magic square of the sun too, as are possibly the names of 12 tribes of Israel.

Images of the sun with a face on it, so common throughout our culture probably finds its roots in Sumerian sun worship too.

So, the symbology found on Mormon temples is in my view important because betrays the pagan origins of its religious philosophy, and that’s the point I was building up to. Mormonism claims to be something that it’s not, and carved in stone are witnesses that it’s not.

Just a few rambling thoughts on the subject for what it’s worth.

Jeff

P.S. Most of the information in my post I obtained from Jesus Christ Sun of God: Ancient Cosmology and Early Christian Symbolism by David Fideler

[peter_mary]

One thing I find interesting about symbols is that although they have no power in and of themselves I think they can act somewhat like genetic markers that can be used to help determine the lineage of a particular paradigm or worldview. For example, Mormonism’s parent paradigms are primarily Masonry and Christianity. We know of those connections through historical documents but the connections are also evidenced in the symbols it “unconsciously” adopted along with the elements of those paradigms. The symbols weren’t necessarily acquired through a conscious decision that was based on knowledge of a particular good or evil power a symbol possessed, as some suggest in their literature on the subject. Instead the symbols were picked up through a type of osmosis. Joseph tinkered with masonry, and in the process he adopted some of its symbols, mostly likely in complete ignorance of their origins. I like any opportunity to call Joseph completely ignorant (although I know he wasn’t). ;) The symbols themselves are not all that important. It’s the philosophy or worldview that’s the more salient element in the transaction. The symbols were just along for the ride. The symbols of masonry were probably likewise picked up through a similar unconscious transfer when the basis of its philosophy was formed, borrowing from one or more known at that time, which indicates again, the origins of its parent philosophies or paradigms. And thus symbols can possibly be useful as genetic markers for providing clues to origins of cultures, philosophies and religions. At least I think they can.

So, the symbology found on Mormon temples is in my view important because betrays the pagan origins of its religious philosophy, and that’s the point I was building up to. Mormonism claims to be something that it’s not, and carved in stone are witnesses that it’s not.

Just a few rambling thoughts on the subject for what it’s worth.

Jeff



Jeff,

I found your symbol analysis to be VERY insightful (even if you borrowed liberally from David Fideler :) ) I find this to be a very useful way to think of symbols. I came to similar conclusions studying mythology (ala Joseph Campbell and others), and found the genetic markers of the evolution of religion embeded in what we think is new and original religion...it is not...it is an evolved creature, multi-headed, that has grown organically from it's earliest beginnings. When we train ourselves to see the symbols, to see the markers, it is actually an amazing thing, from a cultural point of view.

Thanks for this!

Paul