Mission stories (from Hell) they didn't promote

[Born Free]

There are some ugly, tragic stories surrounding Mormon missions that don't get a voice. This is one that came my way just yesterday.

I caught up for coffee yesterday with a still-Mo liberal friend (OK she had hot chocolate) and she cast some disturbing light on the death of a women of our generation who died prematurely some years back.

I had heard that there had been some specualtion that this woman may have suicided. She came from a Mormon family that was high profile in this community some 30 years ago and in the establishment phase of the Church here..

This friend shared that a close girlfiend of hers had been confided in by the deceased before her death. The deceased woman, who was a tall woman (over 6 foot) had served a mission on one of the west Pacific island groups. During her mission she was pack raped, and never felt she could speak of it, so never got any professional assistance, and spoke with very few people, to heal from such a traumatic event. She subsequently started to abuse prescription drugs apparently, and this source was in no doubt that the woman eventally overdosed.

What went on in the poor womans mind, that she could not reach out, can only be speculation, but one would wonder if the various (male) GA author's authoritive statements in books and talks that women should die rather than lose their virtue was a major part of the problem. Well they seemed to get their scenario, except that she did not die resisting, but self-destructed after the event, as a result of her own unrespited hell.

When I hear of this sort of event, I am disgusted to share the same gender with those evil, narrow-minded, sexist bastards that could contribute to something so tragic. :Puking

Of course in due time, we can be sure to hear about that story in General Conference. :rolleyes:

Where was the great all-protective Mormon God, and the magic powers of TGs as this woman slipped into drug-induced unconsciousness to escape the unrelenting pain in her head?

Daryl

[flotsam]

Funny thing. I just wrote a Sugar Beet article about just that. It's a bit dark.


Girls preferring death over dishonor on the rise

SALT LAKE CITY –According to a recent Gallup survey, more Mormon girls are choosing death over dishonor than ever before. The survey showed that the incidents of Mormon girls, following the ideals found in the Book of Moroni, are increasingly jealous of their purity and will go to great lengths to preserve it.

This sudden dip in premarital sex has given the Mormon Church the status of the most sexually pure religion in the world, a fact Church authorities are happy to trumpet to the rest of the world.

But how are these fine young women achieving this lofty moral height? It all started in Tallahassee, Florida.

“My Laurel’s teacher had this really special meeting with us a few months ago,” said Jessica Morley of the Tallahassee 98th ward, “She told us that the Book of Moroni says our virtue is the most important thing we have. More important than our own lives. I really felt that what she said was true.”

Indeed, much of the Bible also insists that if a man take a woman’s virtue, she is no longer pure, and should be stoned. Far better to die before the despicable act takes place.

Now, like the boys who could deprive them of their chastity, Morley, and a few of her devout friends, carry something in their wallets. Something they call Virtue Guarders: a small razor.

“It’s in case the unspeakable happens. We can remove ourselves from the situation … permanently,” said Morely.

Morley’s idea has spread through the United States and into some parts of Canada. The Gallup survey claims that girls committing the ultimate act in order to ward off deflowering at the hands of a male has risen 30 percent in the last year, bringing the incidents of premarital sex down proportionally.

“We know it’s a sacrifice,” said Maryanne Scotts, a Mia Maid from Madison, Wisconsin, “but women are supposed to sacrifice. It’s our calling, and we’re willing to answer.”

Indeed, the girls in the Madison 54th ward are celebrating yet another girl who saved her chastity this week. Nancy Herald.

“We’re going to miss Nancy,” said Louise Yount, “but we know she did the right thing. And we’re all willing to do it as well.”

Nancy will watch the funeral service for Shaun Peters, her former boyfriend, from the Youth Ward of the Wisconsin State Prison.

[miss taken]

Flotsam I think what you write is very very good, very very thought-provoking, in a very sick kind of, oh my goodness is that really the extreme end result of some of the churches teachings, kind of way.

We were told by our very zealous seminary teacher that the guys wanted to pick beautiful flowers, tender and untouched, not some piece of chewing gum that had already been used.

She also used to empasise that sexual impropriety was a sin next to murder in seriousness, which used to hammer home the point.

One of my best friends committed that sin next to murder and promptly attempted suicide because she couldn't cope with the guilt. (tender age of about 15 - but she was mature for her age).

My very best friend then took the advise of the psychiatrists and her wonderful mum, and left the LDS church never to return.

She also severed all her friendships including that with me, because, of course, I represented the same mindset.

Looking back now. I think... Yep still agree with the murder part.

But to equate fornication with murder is a sin in itself in my opinion, and screws the minds of a heck of a lot of vulnerable, young people.

Where's the sensible balance?

Mary

[Born Free]

Flotsam I think what you write is very very good, very very thought-provoking, in a very sick kind of, oh my goodness is that really the extreme end result of some of the churches teachings, kind of way.

We were told by our very zealous seminary teacher that the guys wanted to pick beautiful flowers, tender and untouched, not some piece of chewing gum that had already been used.

She also used to empasise that sexual impropriety was a sin next to murder in seriousness, which used to hammer home the point.

One of my best friends committed that sin next to murder and promptly attempted suicide because she couldn't cope with the guilt. (tender age of about 15 - but she was mature for her age).

My very best friend then took the advise of the psychiatrists and her wonderful mum, and left the LDS church never to return.

She also severed all her friendships including that with me, because, of course, I represented the same mindset.

Looking back now. I think... Yep still agree with the murder part.

But to equate fornication with murder is a sin in itself in my opinion, and screws the minds of a heck of a lot of vulnerable, young people.

Where's the sensible balance?

Mary
Mary,

I am unclear what you are saying here. Do you believe that the loss of one's virginity is a sin near unto murder? Is that what you are saying, and if I have missed the mark, please clarify.

Daryl

[free thinker]

I came home from my mission clinically depressed. I was thoroughly guilt ridden. I had, by all numeric measurements, a very successful mission. I worked hard, was conscientious, and kept the rules. If you are reading this as a TBM, just suspend all your prejudices for one minute, and believe what I am saying here. It is what really happened.

The reson for my guilt was that I went home two weeks early as opposed to two weeks late in the normal transfer, release rotation. I felt so guilty about that early leaving, that it haunted me for years. It would have been so easy for the mission president to just let me stay on and finish two extra weeks. But he was a driven man, and did not want any drag on any missionary in the field. For his numbers I paid a severe price. He used to say, " we are interested in numbers as numbers, and people as people" !! Ya right!! Whatever!! I just wish now that he could have put his arm around me and said. " Elder hang tight! Just one more month! I will be here if you need to talk with someone.

In fairness he did tell me that I had served a very successful mission and there should be no shame in going home. It was only two weeks etc etc. But I did not get to return with the guys I came out with, and as I said, I felt so guilty about it. I served in up-state New York, and on the final day we went to the Sacred Grove to say a final prayer, and give our thoughts to the lord etc. I remember being so racked with guilt. I was anxious to go home, but man was I tied up emotionally.

Now I look back on this with some wisdom and realize the fruitlessness of the guilt I put myself through.

Mormonism to me is guilt, and guilt is mormonism. You cannot separate the two. They are inextricably linked!!

free thinker

[miss taken]

Mary,

I am unclear what you are saying here. Do you believe that the loss of one's virginity is a sin near unto murder? Is that what you are saying, and if I have missed the mark, please clarify.

Daryl

Daryl HI,

No, that was the opposite of what I was trying to say.
Murder is a serious action, you can't bring back a life once it has gone. It is a grevious wrong in most circumstances, but to equate premarital sex with murder is a grievious sin in itself in my opinion, which is what the church does.?? And it leads to a lot of mentally screwed up teenagers, as was the experience with my closest friend in my early days of activity in the church.

Hope that clarifies it!!

Mary

[miss taken]

Posted by Tal B on another board...

Let's see...

Jimmy Jensen, raised in a very average Layton, Utah home, never having traveled before, has been called to spend two years of his life in the Lima, Peru mission.

While there, he will have little access to quality health care. If he gets sick, he is in trouble. He may very well be exposed to tapeworms, cholera, food poisoning, and other illnesses.

His living quarters will most likely be atrocious, filled (as mine were) with vermin who will defecate all over his bed each day while he's out.

He will have little access to proper diet or clean water.

He will be an American in a country which for the last twenty years has seen violence regularly wrought by Maoist, anti-American terrorists, cousins of which killed two missionaries 15 years ago in Bolivia. He is a possible target.

He hasn't even had his birthday yet - he is only eighteen. His mother is worried sick. Jimmy is her oldest child and only son. She has had so many hopes and dreams for him - marriage, children, a great career. But now he will be sent to a third world country, where he will be - can't help but be - in danger. And he will be disallowed from even contacting her by phone. She can't even call him. Even if she visited there, she probably would not be allowed to visit him. He can't come home for holidays, either, even if she pays the airfare.

The one consolation might be, that all of Jimmy's relatives - uncles and cousins and best friends and grandparents and everyone - may all gather to celebrate Jimmy's selfless decision in a sacrament meeting dedicated to that purpose.

But guess what? Gordon B. Hinckley HAS BANNED MISSIONARY FAREWELLS (while he was in the First Presidency, and he has kept that ban). And just for that extra, bruising kick to Jimmy's still pubescent testicles, the extra slap in the face to mama, he has also banned informal missionary send-offs - IN JIMMY'S OWN HOME!

But when Gordon Bitner Hinckley turns 95...

WELL...

The WHOLE CITY is invited to the $300 million dollar Joseph Smith Conference Center! Hurrah! Let all 18,000 seats be filled! Roll out the streamers and the birthday cake! Light the candles! Let the organ play its triumphant fanfares! The Mormon Tabernacle choir will beamingly sing the man's praises! Television stations will cover the glorious event! Donny Osmond will perform! The Deseret News will write its articles describing the whole, grand affair! Mike Wallace will be invited to pay tribute from the podium! The Ensign will run its glossy photos! The Church News presses will roll! Gordo will turn on the "aw, shucks" routine, like Bashful next to Snow White, while Glady Knight serenades him! Members will gaze on, enthralled, entranced, in adulation! Hurrah! Hurrah! Hurrah!

Meanwhile, in Layton, while Jimmy and his ma and dad and three little sisters are sitting there through sacrament meeting, the last Sunday before he RISKS HIS LIFE for "Gordon B. Hinckley's Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints", hardly any mention will be made of his upcoming departure.

Instead, a ten year old boy will read a story about how Joseph Smith never drank alcohol, written by his mother; an RS sister will cry for 20 minutes while she tells a faith-promoting rumour about some unknown (that is, non-existent) kid who drowned in a river and was then found later in a closet at home because an angel transported him there, and try to relate it somehow to tithing; and a high councilman with all the charisma of a comatose Richard G. Scott (or is that redundant?) will deliver a talk on "obedience" which runs 43 minutes in total, way overtime.

Jimmy's aunt, afterwards, asks his mom why they don't have missionary farewells anymore. "It would have meant so much to Jimmy. It's really brave what he's doing".

"I don't know", says Sis. Jensen. "But the First Presidency says they're not allowed anymore, and that we shouldn't even invite people over tonight to visit. Jimmy is kind of sad about it. All I know, though, is that it's our duty to obey the prophet, and we will".

How long until Arnold Friberg does up a painting for meetinghouses of the pigs from "Animal Farm" playing poker with the humans up at the farmhouse?

[dogzilla]

I guess I'll be the one to say it: Flotsam, that was hilarious. In a deliciously sick and twisted way, but sometimes you have to get really far out there before people get the point.


That was so awesome.

[dogzilla]

Oh, and Puh-leeeeze. Jimmy's going to Lima, Peru. Hell, I'd like to go there on vacation. Whoever posted that ridiculous rant made it sound like Jimmy's headed straight for Bagdad. Seriously, he's "risking his life?" :rolleyes: :slap: In Peru?

[Born Free]

Oh, and Puh-leeeeze. Jimmy's going to Lima, Peru. Hell, I'd like to go there on vacation. Whoever posted that ridiculous rant made it sound like Jimmy's headed straight for Bagdad. Seriously, he's "risking his life?" :rolleyes: :slap: In Peru?

I know one daughter of a sister-in-law who returned from a South American mission with some parasite in her body that has caused her life-long problems.

Ah, for the simplistic faith that if one is just serving the Lord all else will be worked out.

Only problem is that the people who do the deciding have rarely been to these places and have a clue about the implications. When most western organisations send their people there they back them up with proper accomodation, food, higene (spelling?) and health support.

Daryl

[dogzilla]

Daryl, I think the bigger problem is one of sheer ignorance. Yes, you can pick up some weird parasites in third-world countries. Some may even cause life-long problems. It happens. That doesn't mean those weird parasites are life-threatening.

Do you s'pose she's done any reading or say, I dunno, watched five minutes of the Travel Channel, since 1952? Do any of these people actually research and learn about the places they're going to before they actually get there? It's probably more characteristic for them to wring their hands and fret ignorantly, rather than to do some homework and find out for example:

• That in Lima, Peru, a groundbreaking alternate-fuel train is underway. Cite: http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/americas/06/17/peru.train.reut/index.html

• While cholera can be a problem, I would guess that trekking around randomly in the jungle would put a person at greater risk than banging on doors in Lima, "In jungle areas east of the Andes mountain range (cordillera), chloroquine-resistant malaria is a serious problem. Cholera, yellow fever, hepatitis, dengue fever and other exotic and contagious diseases are also present. Yellow fever is endemic in certain areas of Peru; in general, those areas are located on the eastern side of the cordillera and at lower elevations in jungle areas." (See citation below.)

• According to the U.S. State Department, "Violent crime, including carjacking, assault, and armed robbery, is common in Lima." And this is different from living in downtown anywhere, U.S.A, how? (cite: http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_998.html)

• Health care in Lima sounds comparable to that in any major city in the U.S. "Medical care is generally good in Lima and usually adequate in other major cities, but it is less so elsewhere in Peru. Urban private health care facilities are often better staffed and equipped than public or rural ones." (From previous citation.)

• I would certainly caution all new missionaries against Liposuction: "Over the last few years, at least five American citizen visitors have died during liposuction operations in Peru." :p FIVE! Count 'em! That's practically a lipsuction epidemic! Somebody call the U.N.! Quick! Before any more bad plastic surgeries are done on American tourists with more money than brains!

• From this site, (http://talesmag.com/rprweb/the_rprs/west/peru.shtml)
it sounds like muggings/robbery is the biggest concern. First, most missionaries don't have all that much to steal and certainly would not carry around a bunch of cash and credit cards. Second, one should be concerned about muggings/robbery in any U.S. city, where the danger is probably far greater. Certainly nothing life-threatening, which was my point. Leave it to a TBM mom to let her emotions and fears take over for logic and actual fact-gathering. Sounds to me as though proper food, accommodations, hygiene and health support are all there. The only difference is there are more low income brown-skinned people who don't speak English than there are in Utah.

Ignorance just pisses me off. I wouldn't put a single toe inside a foreign country without doing some reading and taking precautions to keep myself safe and to prevent illness. However, from what I've read in a two-minute Google search, Lima sounds safer to me than San Antonio, downtown Miami, L.A., New York, or any one of another dozen U.S. cities I've visited. (Probably more English-speakers in Lima than in Miami! :rolleyes: ) It's the knee-jerk reactionary panic that I'm objecting to.

[miss taken]

Oh, and Puh-leeeeze. Jimmy's going to Lima, Peru. Hell, I'd like to go there on vacation. Whoever posted that ridiculous rant made it sound like Jimmy's headed straight for Bagdad. Seriously, he's "risking his life?" :rolleyes: :slap: In Peru?

That rant was from Tal Bachman, another famous ex-mo!!!

Mary

(Me never been to Peru, though I have heard some dreadful stories about missionaries picking up bugs in these types of countries!!!)

[miss taken]

I know one daughter of a sister-in-law who returned from a South American mission with some parasite in her body that has caused her life-long problems.

Ah, for the simplistic faith that if one is just serving the Lord all else will be worked out.

Only problem is that the people who do the deciding have rarely been to these places and have a clue about the implications. When most western organisations send their people there they back them up with proper accomodation, food, higene (spelling?) and health support.

Daryl

I'll agree with you there Daryl, I have heard too many stories of missionaries getting sick not to take them seriously.

I went to the UK up north on mine, (mission) and I have to say that some of the places we lived in were definitely a health risk. (and this is no third world country) We had the cheapest, dirtiest flats (particularly after the elders had used them - sorry bout that, but its the truth), they were cold, damp, and at some I was sleeping on a mattress on the floor, in very poverty stricken and pretty dangerous areas.

If you complain, you are a winer, and we literally did not have TIME to get a place livable, and certainly wouldn't have been able to afford it anyway.

All that, and we had to pay for our own films, projectors, and so forth. I look back now and think, grief....

One time the MP complained because I actually had the audacity to buy a quilt (I was truly cold), a hair dryer (I didn't have one), and a camera (now that one really was a luxury) from one of the sisters who was returning home.

And on the health issue, it's all a matter of trust, you trust that the leadership know what they are doing.

And that reminds me...one of the flats had a leaky gas fire (cheap accomodation) and two of the elders lost their lives.... Very sad....and I expect the parents never sued....

Never again...never again...never again......

[elder_nomo]

Hi Dogzilla -
Agree that Lima (and many other places) may get a bum rap for being more dangerous than they actually are, etc.
But you said......
I wouldn't put a single toe inside a foreign country without doing some reading and taking precautions to keep myself safe and to prevent illness.
For me, the bigger issue is that mishies don't get a choice on where they put their toe. Gordo tells 'em where to go, and they go.
Yes, certainly it would be smart to do some research and protect yourself as much as possible before heading anywhere. But if your research uncovers unsafe conditions, or questionable security, as a TBM mishie, you don't get to use your info to make an informed choice. You gotta go.

[dogzilla]

Hi Dogzilla -
Agree that Lima (and many other places) may get a bum rap for being more dangerous than they actually are, etc.
But you said......

For me, the bigger issue is that mishies don't get a choice on where they put their toe. Gordo tells 'em where to go, and they go.
Yes, certainly it would be smart to do some research and protect yourself as much as possible before heading anywhere. But if your research uncovers unsafe conditions, or questionable security, as a TBM mishie, you don't get to use your info to make an informed choice. You gotta go.

Well, that part I understand. Completely.

I also understand that we're talking about a culture wherein otherwise critical-thinking adults are expected to suspend all self-preservation and have trust that the Church will send them out on a safe and healthy mission. Questioning authority, as in, "Uhh... Couldn't we get malaria there?" is probably frowned upon.

I was mostly reacting to the rant about how the kid who is leaving for Lima has his life in danger. His health and his wallet, sure. The melodrama of the quoted rant was what got to me. A bit over the top, don't you think?

Now, if the church said, "You're going to Lima Peru AND we're not going to allow you to get a Yellow Fever vaccination AND you won't be able to take any choloroquinine drugs against malaria..." right there is where I put my foot down and agree the Church is putting people in harm's way. And, as much as church culture would make one feel extremely uncomfortable about it, we all have the choice to not go on a mission. (I know, that's not much of a choice really, and you'd probably even be disciplined for it, but one could choose not to go if one does not trust the Lord to keep oneself from harm. I'm just sayin'. ;) )

[elder_nomo]

Well, that part I understand. Completely.

I also understand that we're talking about a culture wherein otherwise critical-thinking adults are expected to suspend all self-preservation and have trust that the Church will send them out on a safe and healthy mission. Questioning authority, as in, "Uhh... Couldn't we get malaria there?" is probably frowned upon.

I was mostly reacting to the rant about how the kid who is leaving for Lima has his life in danger. His health and his wallet, sure. The melodrama of the quoted rant was what got to me. A bit over the top, don't you think?

Now, if the church said, "You're going to Lima Peru AND we're not going to allow you to get a Yellow Fever vaccination AND you won't be able to take any choloroquinine drugs against malaria..." right there is where I put my foot down and agree the Church is putting people in harm's way. And, as much as church culture would make one feel extremely uncomfortable about it, we all have the choice to not go on a mission. (I know, that's not much of a choice really, and you'd probably even be disciplined for it, but one could choose not to go if one does not trust the Lord to keep oneself from harm. I'm just sayin'. ;) )

Yes, I'm with you. A bit over the top indeed!

Funny how so many of our posts touch on the idea of real free agency. Yes, it's true, even TBMs are free to make choices. But when you believe that God and all his angels are on one side, and satan and all that's unholy are on the other, it sort of becomes a no-brainer [literally].

[miss taken]

Dogzilla, I should have explained T'B's post a bit better.

Apparantly GBH has banned mission farewells both at church and at the homes of the missionary.

However GBH is about to celebrate his birthday with the guards trooping the colour so to speak, no holes barred.

I think he was trying to say that the lifeblood of the church (ie its missionaries) are no longer able to celebrate their going on a mission, whilst at the same time, GBH is having a big and grand birthday party.

He felt this was hypocritical, and for what its worth I personally don't feel his writing is over the top, maybe a little bitter, but he makes a good point.

Mary

[dogzilla]

I see. Was there any logic at all to banning mish farewells? I can't think of a good reason to ban them -- it always seemed to me like a last minute fundraiser for the soon to be missionary, and so a very necessary step in funding the things.

Don't let me get off on a rant about how my dad always handed those guys at least $50 at their farewell dinners but I could get blood out of a rock before I could get tuition money for college out of him. Grr.

So, I agree it's hypocritical to throw yourself a grand birthday party when you've got thousands of 20-year-olds living on ramen noodles for two years. (Wait. College students often live on them for four... :Crazy: ) What was over the top was the whinging about how a missionary's life is in danger just because he was being sent to Peru.

As usual, I seized on one tiny detail, irrelevant to the main point of the OP and hijacked this thread into a discussion of semantics. :o sorry You may now continue with the posting of sad missionary horror stories. Which I'd really like to read, although it may not seem like it! :D

[miss taken]

I see. Was there any logic at all to banning mish farewells? I can't think of a good reason to ban them -- it always seemed to me like a last minute fundraiser for the soon to be missionary, and so a very necessary step in funding the things.

Don't let me get off on a rant about how my dad always handed those guys at least $50 at their farewell dinners but I could get blood out of a rock before I could get tuition money for college out of him. Grr.

So, I agree it's hypocritical to throw yourself a grand birthday party when you've got thousands of 20-year-olds living on ramen noodles for two years. (Wait. College students often live on them for four... :Crazy: ) What was over the top was the whinging about how a missionary's life is in danger just because he was being sent to Peru.

As usual, I seized on one tiny detail, irrelevant to the main point of the OP and hijacked this thread into a discussion of semantics. :o sorry You may now continue with the posting of sad missionary horror stories. Which I'd really like to read, although it may not seem like it! :D

I don't know if there is any logic to banning mission farewells. Over here they are few and far between and they were always some of the more uplifting meetings.
Kids going away for 18 months to 2 years was always a big deal, and quite a big step in most cases.

Maybe in Utah there's a mission farewell every week or something and people get sick of them... I don't know...any Utah Mormons out there who have any suggestions???

Mary

[miss taken]

Don't let me get off on a rant about how my dad always handed those guys at least $50 at their farewell dinners but I could get blood out of a rock before I could get tuition money for college out of him. Grr.

:D

Dogzilla, this made me laugh, and get angry at the same time..... I would have been so mad at my dad, had his values been like this....but you say it in such an 'off the cuff' way that I can't help laughing too!!!!

All best
Mary

[dogzilla]

Dogzilla, this made me laugh, and get angry at the same time..... I would have been so mad at my dad, had his values been like this....but you say it in such an 'off the cuff' way that I can't help laughing too!!!!

All best
Mary

Well, it was a long time ago and I've mostly let it go. (And hey, it turns out my degree is worth more to me because I had to scrimp and sacrifice and earn it myself, so maybe that's what he was hoping for.) But I've always thought it funny how he'll brag about how cheap he is, always trying to pinch a penny here and there. . . But say it's for the church and he'll give you his ATM PIN. :Crazy:

[miss taken]

Well, it was a long time ago and I've mostly let it go. (And hey, it turns out my degree is worth more to me because I had to scrimp and sacrifice and earn it myself, so maybe that's what he was hoping for.) But I've always thought it funny how he'll brag about how cheap he is, always trying to pinch a penny here and there. . . But say it's for the church and he'll give you his ATM PIN. :Crazy:

Rolling on Floor laughing out loud!!!!

(Did put ROFLOL but the messaging system wouldn't accept it..Ha!!!)

[peter_mary]

I don't know why the Church did away with missionary farewells and gatherings at the family house afterward, but I can happily say that many wards in our town are largely ignoring that edict...because it's dumb. While you don't see quite the same meetings, i.e. you don't have a whole family program every time one comes or goes, the missionary him/herself DOES get to speak, and family members DO come and listen, and since they're all together anyway, let's come over and have some food. I think most smart people looked at that edict and said, "That's too stupid to even consider," and just carried on with their lives.

It's times like that which give me hope for my Mormon friends!

But I think SOME of the decision to stop having the big get togethers was classic Mormon consumerism. I have in-laws in Provo, who live in the River Bottoms (read: expensive property). Missionary farewells were becoming very disruptive in that the 18 and 19 year old crowd were traveling around from one ward to the next all the time, clogging meetings, not fulfilling any useful callings in their home wards, etc. But the biggest issue was the implied pressure to REALLY put on a show at the gathering afterwards. People were having the friggin' things catered, hiring music, they were like wedding receptions...with the added twist of doing it on the Sabath...a gross no-no. And they were spending thousands of dollars!

People who could ill-afford to throw those kinds of parties often felt pretty bad, and many went ahead and incurred debt in order to do it (just to keep up with the Smiths).

Another issue was large families sending out multiple missionaries often found themselves fulfilling the talks and musical numbers of entire Sacrement meetings multiple times a year, many years in a row (because one kid or another was ALWAYS coming or going, and given that girls go at different ages than boys, often you had a girl and boy leaving within months of each other.) I remember one year in which a single family in our ward was personally responsible for 4 entire sacrament meetings because of this issue. It got silly...

I don't know if these were the driving factors, but they may have contributed.

What I want to know is, what ever happened to "teach them correct principles and let them govern themselves?" It seems to me it's their own decision how to govern their lives, so stay the hell out!

On a similar note, a family in our ward is leaving in a week to pick their missionary up in Italy...against the wishes of his Mission President. He said he did NOT want parents disrupting the mission by coming to pick up their sons, visiting families he taught, etc. And they said, "Screw it. He's our boy, we live in a free country, we're coming to Italy." And I was very proud of them!

Peter_Mary

[miss taken]

You would be proud of my very inactive father then Peter_Mary, he phoned me once a month, and came up about 16 months in, and we all had dinner.

Can't remember if I told the MP or not, but I thought, hey I love my dad, and its none of anyone elses darn business. So they can take a proverbial hike.

I am pretty proud of myself for that one!!!!

Mary

[peter_mary]

I am pretty proud of myself for that one!!!!

Mary

**sniff**

I'm proud of you, too, Sister Mary! That's what I'm talkin' about.

Peter_Mary

[Born Free]

You would be proud of my very inactive father then Peter_Mary, he phoned me once a month, and came up about 16 months in, and we all had dinner.

Can't remember if I told the MP or not, but I thought, hey I love my dad, and its none of anyone elses darn business. So they can take a proverbial hike.

I am pretty proud of myself for that one!!!!

Mary
Mary,

The seeds of your destruction are right there! :eek:

In your refusal to follow the dictates of teh bretheren, you planted the seeds of your own apostacy. If you want to sustain a testimony, thinking for yourself is not on! :slap:

Daryl

[miss taken]

Thanks for the best laugh I have had in ages.!!!!!

Daryl, when I was in the church I was mostly SO compliant to the dictats that I am only JUST beginning to get angry about it.

My mum and I were talking yesterday, and we were both saying that I made a lot of bum decisions based on my loyalty to the church. The only salvo I have was that I thought I was doing the right thing at the time!!

It's absolutely beautiful weather here at the moment, I'm off to enjoy the sunshine. (Except for Yorkshire who got terrible floods! -there goes climate change again!)

All best
Mary

[why me]

Thanks for the best laugh I have had in ages.!!!!!

Daryl, when I was in the church I was mostly SO compliant to the dictats that I am only JUST beginning to get angry about it.

My mum and I were talking yesterday, and we were both saying that I made a lot of bum decisions based on my loyalty to the church. The only salvo I have was that I thought I was doing the right thing at the time!!

It's absolutely beautiful weather here at the moment, I'm off to enjoy the sunshine. (Except for Yorkshire who got terrible floods! -there goes climate change again!)

All best
Mary

Isn't Emmerdale filmed in yorkshire? Gosh I love that british soap opera. It is great. Do you watch Emmerdale Miss Taken? How is Zak doing these days and Diane? I hear that Jack and Diane got married...that was good news. And Chris died. Any other tidbits you can throw my way? I know that Seth died in real life. His real name was Stan Richardson. Take care Miss Taken...I off on holiday tomorrow. (American translation: I am going on vacation tomorrow). Have fun! :D

[noodle]

I don't know why the Church did away with missionary farewells and gatherings at the family house afterward, but I can happily say that many wards in our town are largely ignoring that edict...because it's dumb. While you don't see quite the same meetings, i.e. you don't have a whole family program every time one comes or goes, the missionary him/herself DOES get to speak, and family members DO come and listen, and since they're all together anyway, let's come over and have some food. I think most smart people looked at that edict and said, "That's too stupid to even consider," and just carried on with their lives.

It's times like that which give me hope for my Mormon friends!

But I think SOME of the decision to stop having the big get togethers was classic Mormon consumerism. I have in-laws in Provo, who live in the River Bottoms (read: expensive property). Missionary farewells were becoming very disruptive in that the 18 and 19 year old crowd were traveling around from one ward to the next all the time, clogging meetings, not fulfilling any useful callings in their home wards, etc. But the biggest issue was the implied pressure to REALLY put on a show at the gathering afterwards. People were having the friggin' things catered, hiring music, they were like wedding receptions...with the added twist of doing it on the Sabath...a gross no-no. And they were spending thousands of dollars!

People who could ill-afford to throw those kinds of parties often felt pretty bad, and many went ahead and incurred debt in order to do it (just to keep up with the Smiths).

Another issue was large families sending out multiple missionaries often found themselves fulfilling the talks and musical numbers of entire Sacrement meetings multiple times a year, many years in a row (because one kid or another was ALWAYS coming or going, and given that girls go at different ages than boys, often you had a girl and boy leaving within months of each other.) I remember one year in which a single family in our ward was personally responsible for 4 entire sacrament meetings because of this issue. It got silly...

I don't know if these were the driving factors, but they may have contributed.

What I want to know is, what ever happened to "teach them correct principles and let them govern themselves?" It seems to me it's their own decision how to govern their lives, so stay the hell out!

On a similar note, a family in our ward is leaving in a week to pick their missionary up in Italy...against the wishes of his Mission President. He said he did NOT want parents disrupting the mission by coming to pick up their sons, visiting families he taught, etc. And they said, "Screw it. He's our boy, we live in a free country, we're coming to Italy." And I was very proud of them!

Peter_Mary

In this northern Utah town, missionary farewells are posted in the local newspaper, and tons of folks - high school buddies, former prom dates, Uncle Rufus, Cuz'n (once or twice removed) Bessie from California, etc., all descend on the doors of the chapel for the great send-off. Printed invitations sometimes arrived several weeks prior to the big event. I've heard rumor that one wealthy local had a statue of his son (kneeling and holding the BOM) commissioned, and it was on display for the catered gathering after the church service. :Puking What ever happened to the "humble" part of missionary work? I, for one, was sortof glad when "The Crutch" came out against the formal celebrations. Most people continue to do what they want, although I do think it has been toned down some. I'm sure that some of these mishies - especially the ones who had little choice about going or not - felt extra guilty when they got to the MTC and thought, "what the hell did I get myself into?" How could they disappoint the throngs of people who came out to wish them well? Wonder if there have been any runaway missionaries like the now infamous runaway bride? Hey! Sounds like a good PeepStone article. The mishie who "disappears" the week before his farewell and shows up in Vegas.

mamajama

[peter_mary]

Wonder if there have been any runaway missionaries like the now infamous runaway bride? Hey! Sounds like a good PeepStone article. The mishie who "disappears" the week before his farewell and shows up in Vegas.

mamajama

I like how your twisted little mind works, :Crazy: mamajama...this might just have to find its way into the Peep Stone...

[Need a thoughtful, chin-rubbing smilie here...but this little guy will have to do instead :duh Chin, forhead, rub, slap, it's all just semantics, right? We're talking body parts...good 'nuf for me]

Peter_Mary

[nate]

I know one daughter of a sister-in-law who returned from a South American mission with some parasite in her body that has caused her life-long problems.

Daryl

That's funny...I know a guy who returned from a South American mission with a wife that has caused him life-long problems. :D

Nate

[peter_mary]

That's funny...I know a guy who returned from a South American mission with a wife that has caused him life-long problems. :D

Nate

For a minute there, I thought you were going to say, "I know a guy who returned from a South American mission with a wife that has caused him life-long parasite problems..."

So glad that's not where that was going! :D

Peter_Mary

[nate]

For a minute there, I thought you were going to say, "I know a guy who returned from a South American mission with a wife that has caused him life-long parasite problems..."

So glad that's not where that was going! :D

Peter_Mary

haha. no. Get your mind outa the gutter.

[capt_jack]

dogzilla:

Have you ever been to Lima? I have, and I can tell you Tal isn't exagerating. Well, maybe a little with the guerrilla stuff--Sendero Luminoso never targeted missionaries, the only group that did and killed two Latin missionaries as the got off a bus one day is pretty much defunct.

It is much, much worse than Miami or any other city in North America. I've spent considerable time in every major Spanish speaking city in the hemisphere, and Lima is hands down the worst one I've been to. I'd take Bogotá Colombia over Lima any day of the week.

The missionaries are at greater risk from cholera in Lima than if they were trekking through the jungle--you see, they spend most of their time in the "pueblos jovenes" click here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pueblos_jóvenes) where there isn't basic sanitation, potable water, or much of anything else. Cholera is just the most famous disease they face--throw in leishmaniasis, leptospirosis, hepatitis, salmonella, Chagas, and many more. Even the good places in Lima have a really charming custom--they don't flush their toilet paper, they put it in a trash can in the bathroom for someone to come and burn. The plumbing can't take paper.

Their living conditions can be appalling with rodent and insect infestation. More than one missionary has died in South America when from preventable gas leaks, floods, electrocutions that were all due to their shitty housing.

Hospitals aren't comparable to those in the US--there are a few good ones, but chances are if you get in an accident your first care will come from a decrepit public hospital that will pose more of a threat than the accident. The missionaries outside of Lima don't even have ready access to those slaughterhouses.

As far as not being robbery targets because they don't carry much money, I can tell you they have a hell of alot more money than the average slum dweller. Most have been robbed multiple times; in other countries they've been killed when they've stupidly tried to resist muggings.

The really bad part about it is they are unable to question where they are sent, and unable to tell the president to jam it up his ass. Well, they could, but they'd probably be sent home in disgrace.

Couple that with the complete lack of cultural training, the failure of the church to give these kids any kind of 'street smarts' training, and their and their parents' indoctrination that all will go well if they are faithful and it's amazing more don't come home dead.

All this is just one more reason LDS Inc ought to have the shit sued out of it by the parents of some of these kids when they come home.

I'm not trying to bust on you or anything, but Lima is really that bad.

[dogzilla]

Well, thank you. I give way more creedence to someone with an informed opinion than I do so someone who is just being melodramatic.

I guess my point was (without re-reading this thread to remind myself) even though it doesn't feel like there's a choice... everyone has a choice to go on a mission or not. And if you don't feel your safety is being properly accounted for, the sun will still rise in the east if someone chooses not to go. It happens.

That was a very interesting post -- I appreciate you enlightening me.

[capt_jack]

[QUOTE=dogzilla]
I guess my point was (without re-reading this thread to remind myself) even though it doesn't feel like there's a choice... everyone has a choice to go on a mission or not. And if you don't feel your safety is being properly accounted for, the sun will still rise in the east if someone chooses not to go. It happens.
QUOTE]

I agree. I wish more of them would call it quits or at least stand up for themselves when they're in bad places. Problem is that the indoctrination they've been through since birth works against it.

Good luck with the hurricane--with any luck you'll stay out of the right front quadrant and the tornadoes. Having lived in Fort Walton Beach for 5 years I don't miss that at all.

Regards

Michael

[miss taken]

Are you two kidding!!! Call it quits once you get there, or choose not to go on a mission!!!! Get behind me Satan!!!!

No way, with a testimony of the church that I had, and the social indoctrination that the WORST thing for a guy was to choose NOT to go on a mission, and worse still to GO HOME and quit once you got there!!!

I got to the bus stop once ready to pack up, and I remember the great feeling of shame that came over me, that I would be letting God and myself down if I quit.

Missions are a microcosm of life, if you quit on a mission you will be a quitter in life.

No way, would I have chosen to go home, or asked for a different area had mine come up as Lima Peru. I would have felt God was calling me. Full stop.

Mary