Brigham Young and Carl Marx

[miss taken]

Why Me!!! I am sure you will have an opinion on this.
It was a link that appeared over at FAIR.

http://www.techcentralstation.com/062405C.html

What do you all think???

Mary

[darkslider]

Why Me!!! I am sure you will have an opinion on this.
It was a link that appeared over at FAIR.

http://www.techcentralstation.com/062405C.html

What do you all think???

Mary

Nice platitude, but it ignores Brigham Young's own words in several areas. Or rather, it doesn't point the apparent hypocricy out.

Take for example the following:

Brigham Young believed that man was put on earth to do hard physical work with his hands, and he believed this was the only sure way to achieve salvation. ... In the eyes of Brigham Young, manual labor was collaboration with the Almighty in his ongoing effort to improve the world.

But fails to take into account I have given it up,I do not intend to work any more at manual labor.

Why does he say this? Because Scores and hundreds of times when my calling in the kingdom of God was less than it is now, have I endeavored to set myself to work, but seldom could have a chance to do so more than five minutes; some one would come along,"Give me the hoe, brother Brigham, I want to talk with you;" and so stop me, and no sooner stop me than he stops also.
-Brigham Young quotations found: Journal of Discourses Vol. 1, page 28. Online copy can be found HERE (http://journals.mormonfundamentalism.org/Vol_01/refJDvol1-6.html)

Granted I could be reading more into the statement than is really there, but it doesn't strike anyone else as odd, that there is a reason for Brigham Young's lack of work? It is almost an excuse.

The first thing that popped into my mind while reading this was. . . "How the hell are you going to support your 50 wives and all the kids if you aren't working, dumbass?"

The above article, politically speaking, is outside my experience, as I have not placed sufficient study into Marxism. But, it was really well written in my opinion.

[free thinker]

At the conclusion of The Communist Manifesto, Marx had said "Workers of the world unite; you have nothing to lose but your chains; you have a world to gain."




Embracing mormonism will entail chaining up with a different set of chains.

The chains of guilt and shame.

The chains of intellectual surrender.

The chains of blind obedience.

free thinker

[miss taken]

The first thing that popped into my mind while reading this was. . . "How the hell are you going to support your 50 wives and all the kids if you aren't working, dumbass?"


Oh thanks for that Dark, it made me laugh out loud.

Good point, really good point. Maybe he just got someone else to do all the work for him. Or maybe tithes kept him in the manner to which he became accustomed.

I have wondered on occassion, if the way GA's are paid, have changed through the years.

I looked round that mansion house of Brighams, and thought, this was a fellow who accumulated quite a bit of money!!!

Mary

[free thinker]

I looked round that mansion house of Brighams, and thought, this was a fellow who accumulated quite a bit of money!!!

Brigham was quite wealthy! Todd Compton points out in his book , " In Sacred Loneliness" , that some of his wives lived in poverty as he lived in opulence. Some had to beg him for money.

This was a prophet of god? Bull**it!! Just another womanizing gainseeker like his mentor Joseph Smith!!

free thinker

[cactus jack]

I looked round that mansion house of Brighams, and thought, this was a fellow who accumulated quite a bit of money!!!

Brigham was quite wealthy! Todd Compton points out in his book , " In Sacred Loneliness" , that some of his wives lived in poverty as he lived in opulence. Some had to beg him for money.

This was a prophet of god? Bull**it!! Just another womanizing gainseeker like his mentor Joseph Smith!!

free thinker

FT, I don't think I could live like that. It's beneath me to treat wives as a lower form of life. Man, hearing what BY did tears my heart up (yes ladies, I really do have one, can you imagine? lol). I could never do that to a woman. Even if I hated her.

[why me]

:( :( Why Me!!! I am sure you will have an opinion on this.
It was a link that appeared over at FAIR.

http://www.techcentralstation.com/062405C.html

What do you all think???

Mary
I thought the article was interesting. Young certainly believed in hard work. We must remember the symbol of the beehive and its meaning for the saints Young's ideas fitted very well into American society and the whole idea of the gospel of weath and capitalism is general. But I also believe that there was a social aspect to his work ethic as formulated in the United Order. Of course to be successful at the time of Young an individual needed to work hard and have an understanding for his or her reasons for working hard. The American system was not for slackers. The Utah dream was basically the American dream in minute form. A home and a piece of land with self-reliance. Karl Marx saw within the capitalist system its basic nature of exploitation during the industrial age when the worker worked for a wage without basic security for himself or herself and the family. Utah was an argricultural state surrounded by homesteads and individual initiative. The two ideologies Young's and Marx' were to be at odds with eachother. But within the Utah mindset we can see why the state is republican---it is in the blood from a historical perspective. But if we look at the world from Marx's point of view and from his own life world we can perhaps see that he was a product of his own observations. He was surrounded by working class poverty and capitalist injustice toward human beings and he sought to do something about it. The whole idea of changing the world is a beautiful idea, esecially if a person sees injustice in their own community.
I am on vacation at the moment and so I cannot respond too often these days but I will return to full activity in late july.

[dancinfree]

:( :(
But if we look at the world from Marx's point of view and from his own life world we can perhaps see that he was a product of his own observations.


I dare say, Why Me , that this is all that is necessary to say about Marx or You or me...very profound, don't you think? If we can do this with all those in our world, awareness, growth, understanding and evolvement would be the gifts that would appear, IMO. Very moving statement..thanks.

[why me]

I dare say, Why Me , that this is all that is necessary to say about Marx or You or me...very profound, don't you think? If we can do this with all those in our world, awareness, growth, understanding and evolvement would be the gifts that would appear, IMO. Very moving statement..thanks.
I suppose that this was something that I learned from Marx when I was very young. To observe, to reflect and to learn. But with also the willingness to change which seems to be unchageable if change is called for to lessen oppression inside the human community. I know that I am also a product of my own observation inside my own environment. It is not a bad thing to do but it can cause complications inside the mind. Glad to have you back Dancinfree! :)

[dancinfree]

I suppose that this was something that I learned from Marx when I was very young. To observe, to reflect and to learn. But with also the willingness to change which seems to be unchageable if change is called for to lessen oppression inside the human community. I know that I am also a product of my own observation inside my own environment. It is not a bad thing to do but it can cause complications inside the mind. Glad to have you back Dancinfree! :)

I didn't learn this from Marx like you..I learned this way of being by grasping the influence and love of those around me and I taste the fruits of growth..sometimes pain, sometimes peace...My growth has been when I can look outside of what has always been within my world and see outside...when the whispers of a need to change begins within myself...as time goes, I listen more and more to those whisperings...I witness the oppression within myself and then and only then can I influence others' to join me on my journey or not...they can choose, not by my lecturing or demanding but in the way of my being...others' will either find in me, their own whisperings and join me or find other paths where whispers speak louder to their souls.

Man, I've missed this site. Feels good to be home.

[why me]

I didn't learn this from Marx like you..I learned this way of being by grasping the influence and love of those around me and I taste the fruits of growth..sometimes pain, sometimes peace...My growth has been when I can look outside of what has always been within my world and see outside...when the whispers of a need to change begins within myself...as time goes, I listen more and more to those whisperings...I witness the oppression within myself and then and only then can I influence others' to join me on my journey or not...they can choose, not by my lecturing or demanding but in the way of my being...others' will either find in me, their own whisperings and join me or find other paths where whispers speak louder to their souls.

Man, I've missed this site. Feels good to be home.
You said that very well. You will also find that a good book will help you in the whispers that life breathes into your ear or mind. I just bought a biography of the American poet Edna Saint Vincent Millay. She had such an interesting and tormented life that I am looking forward to reading about her lovers and turmoils. The book was written by Nancy Milford. You will learn much from reading the lives of poets, dancinfree. You have a poet's soul and a poet's attachment to life. But you are not tormented like a poet but rather you show optimism toward your life whispers... :)