al-Qaida and Post-Mos

[peter_mary]

I've been doing some thinking, which usually leads to trouble. Nevertheless, I had a thought today, which I decided to lob out there and see what kind of response it gets.

I've been reading a very interesting book called "America's Secret War," by George Friedman. It's all about the political maneuvering of the US in response to Sept. 11, 2001.

Among the things I've learned is that al-Qaida is a new form of community, one that is not institution-based, does not have a real hiearchy, does not have real structure, and is amorphous in its design. It exists as a coalition of like-minded people, all over the planet. True, there are SOME central players like bin Laden, but most of the players in al-Qaida are players by self-association, not by "baptism" so to speak, and bin Laden is more important as a symbol than a real leader at this point. In other words, they recognize their affinity for the same ideals as the core of al-Qaida, and affiliate by virtue of shared ideals and goals, but it's really driven by the mood, the field-movement, of the entire, boundariless "blob" of like-minded people.

The bombing in London recently is like a classic case in point. The perpetrators of that crime were probably "home-boys" of London, and may not have had any formal contact with the core of al-Qaida. Yet they identify with it's ideals, and act in its behalf, with deadly force.

It's a new form of community, one made possible by the technology of our day.

So here's where I'm going. Post-Mos are similar, in that there is really no central leadership, (though Jeff is sort of like Osama, but shorter... :D ), we are dispersed in time and space, we are only a community in ideal, not in geography. That's an interesting diversion from the classic communities of old. We can unite with like-minded people in the UK, New Zealand, Australia, Germany, and all 50 states (and anywhere else you lurkers may be watching from!) by virtue of this silly machine that sits on our desks or in our laps. Where communities used to find affinity within such structures as nations, states, counties, cities, neighborhoods, clubs and congregations, now those structures seem to be on the verge of becoming obsolete.

Is this the community of the future? Do Post-Mos have the same kind of potential that al-Qaida has (though hopefully not for such nefarious purposes!). Does this kind of community fortell the death of formal churches such as the Mormon church, when people no longer have to gather under a roof to hear from central leadership now that they can gather under a net and share with each other, self-governing as they go?

I remember when my brother-in-law predicted 6 or 7 years ago that music stores that cell tapes and CDs would go the way of 8-track players (aether, ask your Mom what an 8-track player was :D ), to be taken over by on-line music purchases. I remember thinking, "No way...there will always be a place in the world for the CD store." Well, I hadn't considered 2 things. First, as he was speaking, Apple was developing the iPod, and second, when my generation of music buyers is dead and gone, we will be replaced by a generation who only knows how to buy music one song at a time that they load in their MP3 players. There won't be a need for the building anymore.

Is this true for Church? Can it be that organized religion is about to be replaced by disorganized religion?

And now that I've brought up the possibility, I'm not sure which is worse...judging from the amorphous fundamentalist Christian movement in this country...

Well, back to the far corners of outer darkness.

Peter_Mary

[miss taken]

Really great post! I think you are on to something.
My friend is doing her masters at the moment in learning for the future... and she has been discussing some of the same issues, about communities. She also talks a lot about post modernism and starts to loose me...Oh well!!!

When the Sept 11th attacks happened. I felt I was there in New York with everyone else. We watched it live, unfolding on the TV. We shared in everyones amazement, horror and panic. It was/is one of the most impacting days of my life.

Afterwards I set to study the Koran, and looked up everything I could on Bin Laden to try to understand where he is coming from, and to see why he seems, having come from such a priviledged background, to have such a big grudge against the West.

I still don't understand it, but I think you are right about how Al Qaida has developed. Lots of theorists were saying that Bush's actions in Afghanistan and in Iraq would spawn a 1000 Bin Laden's, and I think they are unfortunately right.

We all know how religious extremism can take hold of a persons mind, and make right seem wrong and wrong seem right. ie screw up their morals...

I think you are also right about communities like this one.

My husband worked for a well known telecoms company for a while, and what impressed him was the lack of a heirarchy where all were important, particularly the R & D depts who are/were the lifeblood of the company...he liked the equality of it all...

[Jeff_Ricks]

So here's where I'm going. Post-Mos are similar, in that there is really no central leadership, (though Jeff is sort of like Osama, but shorter... :D ), we are dispersed in time and space, we are only a community in ideal, not in geography.


Lot's of interesting things to comment on when I have time later, but you KNOW I have to respond to the above. Boy! In these times, saying things like that might cause the feds to come knocking on my door (or hide outside in the bushes)! ;-) Not sure I like the comparison, and not sure I like being called short! (JUST KIDDING. I know Bin Laden's a tall guy.)

You make some interesting points though. The internet has really changed the social and political landscape hasn't it? I think we're just beginning to see it's potential. It has a way of leveling the playing field and dispersing power in both religion and politics. What a wonderful tool!

Jeff

[tjohnson]

It's a new form of community, one made possible by the technology of our day.

I remember when my brother-in-law predicted 6 or 7 years ago that music stores that cell tapes and CDs would go the way of 8-track players (aether, ask your Mom what an 8-track player was :D ), to be taken over by on-line music purchases. I remember thinking, "No way...there will always be a place in the world for the CD store." Well, I hadn't considered 2 things. First, as he was speaking, Apple was developing the iPod, and second, when my generation of music buyers is dead and gone, we will be replaced by a generation who only knows how to buy music one song at a time that they load in their MP3 players. There won't be a need for the building anymore.

Peter_Mary

There are many good points in your message, including how things will continue to change over time. I believe things will change FASTER because that's who makes the most money... the person/company/industry that can do or make something faster will make more money.

However, I don't see actual CD's, DVD's, etc. going away any time soon. I was in a local CD store just a few days ago and there were a LOT of under 18 people buying music. Walmart and Amazon sell millions of dollars worth each year.

I think the same holds true for religion. There will be more and more "online" forums, groups and get-togethers as time goes on, but people will still "attend" a local building to hear gospel songs, talks, music, etc. I think that will always be the case. Being online can't replace actual human contact (at least not yet). :D

One thing that was always interesting to me on Star Trek:TNG is Capt. Picard would always be in his room reading an actual book to relax and get away from his work. I believe this will be the case for a long, long time to come. Some things just can't be replaced with electronic equipment. :Crazy:

However, I also believe that having access to HUGE amounts of information will be what causes the church to either change, or slowly go away. It may take 50 years from now, but the Internet has already had HUGE impacts on the church membership. I read somewhere that as countries around the world get better connected to the Internet, the membership in the church actually drops in those areas. How they are tracking or monitoring that, I'm not sure, but it makes perfect sense.

Having access to truthful information seems to make people want to leave the LDS church. :duh

[free thinker]

Ok Peter-Mary

I get the idea and understand the comparison, but I do not like being linked to Al-Quada in any way.

I know that you are not saying we are like them, but using the loose organization as a comparison. I must say though that using them as comparison in any way is something that is anathema to me. If evil exists, Al Quada is it's face.

They are nihilists. As such I see nothing useful in their organization. Their ranks are filled with desparate, marginalized young men. They are like white trash, except white trash values life more.

I see this organization we are involved in as life enhancing and freedom bent. Not a bend towards death and destruction.

PM you know I love ya , but I cannot stand having post-mo.org linked to Al-Quada. To much for me to handle !!


free thinker

[helemon]

Being online can't replace actual human contact (at least not yet). :D


Being online can help coordinate actual human contact as the various exmo gatherings announced on the board show. :)

[peter_mary]

Ok Peter-Mary

I get the idea and understand the comparison, but I do not like being linked to Al-Quada in any way.

free thinker

FT...no, no, no, no, NO! I'm not suggesting a "link" to al-Qaida at all! Furthest thing from the truth. What I'm suggesting is an interesting developing reality concerning the nature of powerful communities.

Whether we like it or not, al-Qaida is a powerful, amorphous, weak-structured community of like-minded individuals, drawn by a common ideal. They are not constrained by geographical, or even ethnic boundaries. They are drawn together by a vision, and they link up by the power of new technologies that allows kind of a "field" to develop. They function in unison, even though they are not necessarily even in contact with some "leadership."

I only use them as an example of a very curious, and in many ways, very remarkable example of the manner in which communities can form. My point was merely raising the possibility that perhaps the old boundaries that exist in communities will become obsolete, as they are replaced by more amorphous, self-guided, self-monitored, evolving/learning communities, and pointing out that PostMormon.org MIGHT have the same kind of untapped power...only it doesn't have to be for ill. Hitler took the power of industrialization to an evil end, but that didn't mean that his tools were evil, only his application of the tools.

Al-Qaida has made use of the kind of the community that can exist because of the new environment we find ourselves in, and they have done it for evil. But I think it makes the case quite well for the power of those kinds of communities.

I raised the spectre of a similarly developing kind of amorphous community developing in THIS country...one that I am EQUALLY uncomfortable with, personally, namely the fundamentalist religious right that is beating the drum of "liberal = evil." They don't belong to any one Church. They don't live in one part of the country. They are not found in a just a single socio-economic class. They are both men and women. They can be found in many races. They are leaderless, but have their heroes, finding power in their shared conviction, and learning that if they band together, they can cow others into submission.

So please don't misunderstand me...we are not "al-Qaida in sheeps clothing." Al-Qaida may just be a powerful example of the evolution of social networks and communities...a new form that we haven't really learned to deal with (as evidenced by our utter frustration fighting the insurgents in Iraq, and al-Qaida everywhere.)

Maybe I'm full of cow-pies...

Peter_Mary

[why me]

I think that we need to look at the organization before and after September 11th. Before september 11th the organization was centered in Afghanistan. It was rather centralized where prospective members were sent to Afghanistan for training and schooling. But after september 11th the organization was scattered over the planet. It has been claimed the whoever did the bombing in London were not formal members of the organization but rather homegrown sympathizers who made a amatuer bomb. I am not sure about the comparison with postmoism, though. It seems rather loose in comparison.

[david]

Certainly the internet is an awesome thing. But it's not a glorious thing.

I stand with the critics like Michael Sandel who point out that the "communities" that the internet has enabled are really more correctly seen as groups of like-minded people. Nothing wrong with that, but that's a pretty impoverished kind of community if you ask me. After all, al queda is a like-minded group of people too. So are white supremacists, militia groups, right-wing zeolots...you get my point. In our postmodern world, community has come to mean associating with people you like, and not associating with people you don't like. The internet is a tool that can be put to bad use, or good use. I'm afraid that it has a polarizing aspect to it.

In my opinion, the real value of community is found in transcending simple like-mindedness and in discovering what you share with people not like you. Acceptance of the 'other' is the key to humanity, but it is not getting any easier, despite our apparent 'progressive' culture. Just something to keep in mind as we relish the conveniences of modern life.

[free thinker]

So please don't misunderstand me...we are not "al-Qaida in sheeps clothing." Al-Qaida may just be a powerful example of the evolution of social networks and communities...a new form that we haven't really learned to deal with (as evidenced by our utter frustration fighting the insurgents in Iraq, and al-Qaida everywhere.)

Maybe I'm full of cow-pies...

You're not full of pie at all IMO . Your writing is very inciteful. This idea you put forth is, IMHO, dead on! I guess that is why I find it frightening.

I find myself tossed about a bit these days. So much of what I used to be sure about, I am no longer sure about. While that is good I think, I am also finding that I am still settled on a few things. One happens to be this terrorist element. They are causing so much discord. Spreading so much sorrow. So much pain and anguish for loved ones lost. It is inevitable that they will lose in the long run, but at what cost?

It causes me great distress when I read others speculation that perhaps we have brought this on ourselves through our national policy etc. It plays into the hands of a very intelligent, and very dangerous adversary. We empower them when we doubt them, or or try to minimize what they are doing.

I know this was not your intent!! I think you are great! Love your stuff!! Love it!! I am just worried!!



free thinker

[free thinker]

In my opinion, the real value of community is found in transcending simple like-mindedness and in discovering what you share with people not like you. Acceptance of the 'other' is the key to humanity, but it is not getting any easier, despite our apparent 'progressive' culture. Just something to keep in mind as we relish the conveniences of modern life.

Do you sense any divergence on this site, or do you think we are becoming polarized into only one general mindset? I would love to hear your candid opinion!!

free thinker

[david]

Do you sense any divergence on this site, or do you think we are becoming polarized into only one general mindset? I would love to hear your candid opinion!!

free thinker

Well, let me be clear that I think this site has very positive things to offer in that it encourages exploration. There is a glue that binds its members together, and all of us are recovering in some way. This is not a bad thing at all.

My worry is that at a macro-level, the internet makes it very easy to engage in unhealthy, self-reinforcing behavior because we can always find others who will agree with us. After all, even TBM's have their sites, which serve largely to keep them brainwashed. For every interest group out there, there is an opposite group which is just as ardent. So for every positive site, like this one, you get it's antidote on another site.

Bottom line is, I'm not convinced that the internet necessarily brings people together in a world-transforming way. Which isn't to knock the 'net at all, it's actually a mind-boggling technology.

For myself, I strive to recognize the "other' if for no other reason than to better understand myself and my place in the world. I live in a 'diverse' urban neighborhood comprised of many social and economic classes. (Sububia has a suffocating effect on me). Some would call me a 'neighborhood activist.' A lot of people I know find my interest in such things baffling. When a temporary homeless shelter was located for a while down the street, certain folks in my family were appalled. This sort of intolerance helped drive me away from the morg. But I wonder sometimes if the internet doesn't in some insidious way, encourage close-mindedness in people that are so disposed.

[why me]

Well, let me be clear that I think this site has very positive things to offer in that it encourages exploration. There is a glue that binds its members together, and all of us are recovering in some way. This is not a bad thing at all.

My worry is that at a macro-level, the internet makes it very easy to engage in unhealthy, self-reinforcing behavior because we can always find others who will agree with us. After all, even TBM's have their sites, which serve largely to keep them brainwashed. For every interest group out there, there is an opposite group which is just as ardent. So for every positive site, like this one, you get it's antidote on another site.

Bottom line is, I'm not convinced that the internet necessarily brings people together in a world-transforming way. Which isn't to knock the 'net at all, it's actually a mind-boggling technology.

For myself, I strive to recognize the "other' if for no other reason than to better understand myself and my place in the world. I live in a 'diverse' urban neighborhood comprised of many social and economic classes. (Sububia has a suffocating effect on me). Some would call me a 'neighborhood activist.' A lot of people I know find my interest in such things baffling. When a temporary homeless shelter was located for a while down the street, certain folks in my family were appalled. This sort of intolerance helped drive me away from the morg. But I wonder sometimes if the internet doesn't in some insidious way, encourage close-mindedness in people that are so disposed.
I understand your viewpoint. The Internet does bring together like-minded people who share a set of values, beliefs and common community. In a strange way it can give a sense of togetherness and connection by allowing cyberwords to replace flesh to flesh communication. In a strange way I thought that this site also needed some diversity when I joined. All postmo's should not feel that they have to bend over backwards to agree with eachother for fear of being separated from the group. But on the other hand, most people seek self-affirmation and not self-alienation when joining a group. What becomes important is the availability to be with people who celebrate difference and yet still are together in their common humanity. But it is perhaps true that cyberspace cannot replace genuine human togetherness when people come together in dialogue, conversation, and debate, or come together just to share a moment. However, the FAIR boards are diverse by encouraging all comers to take on LDS gospel principles. But they all share a common thread of interest in debating the bible and other scripture. :)

[miss taken]

In my opinion, the real value of community is found in transcending simple like-mindedness and in discovering what you share with people not like you. Acceptance of the 'other' is the key to humanity, but it is not getting any easier, despite our apparent 'progressive' culture. Just something to keep in mind as we relish the conveniences of modern life.

Do you sense any divergence on this site, or do you think we are becoming polarized into only one general mindset? I would love to hear your candid opinion!!

free thinker

I know you didn't ask me this question, but I think that you make a really good point. I think I have a handle on some peoples opinions here, and they are mostly different. Some are angry, some are not. Some are atheists, some are not. Some are still Christian, some are not. What I like about this site, is that I don't feel authority here (though sometimes Ed seems that way - sorry Ed don't mean to offend, but sometimes you do come across as the father of the site - you know - the one that says, okay I've listened to you kids, now let me tell you how it REALLY is!!!!!! :D ), and everyone can express a different opinion. I love the diversity here. I learned a lot from Darkslider and Keene, also Infiltrator, and also the homosexuality issue.

It would be horrible if there were this one way to think and we were all trying to cotton on to what it was, so that we could get social and spiritual approval.

Mary

[Jeff_Ricks]

But I wonder sometimes if the internet doesn't in some insidious way, encourage close-mindedness in people that are so disposed.


I think the Internet is neither good nor bad in and of itself, other than it's ability to help level the playing field -- that's very good in my opinion! Other than leveling the field I see the net mostly as an amplifier or accelerator of things that already exist. For example, the internet plus fundamentalist religion is dangerous! It's like throwing gasoline on a fire! On the other hand, the Internet plus open-mindedness is humanity's best hope of the world healing itself because of it's ability to level the playing field. The world needs less centralization of power. Such a concentration of power almost insures corruption and the world has plenty of that!

The religious fundamentalists might be connecting in a decentralized fashion but their various purposes are still centralized around one thing, the Bible. So in that sense the movement is based on a centralization of power/energy. Fortunately they can’t all agree on their interpretations of the Bible or we’d see an even much greater concentration of power. Same is true in the world of Islam. Thanks goodness there are many disagreeing factions among them!

I think what we’re witnessing in the way the fundamentalists use the net to their advantage is like what happens when you let air out of a tire. There’s of course a centralization of energy within the tire so its bound to make some noise as it’s being deflated. But the net result is a leveling of the playing field by making information freely available to the masses.

Just some rambling thoughts as I rush around this morning getting ready for work.

Jeff

[Jeff_Ricks]

I know you didn't ask me this question, but I think that you make a really good point. I think I have a handle on some peoples opinions here, and they are mostly different. Some are angry, some are not. Some are atheists, some are not. Some are still Christian, some are not. What I like about this site, is that I don't feel authority here (though sometimes Ed seems that way - sorry Ed don't mean to offend, but sometimes you do come across as the father of the site - you know - the one that says, okay I've listened to you kids, now let me tell you how it REALLY is!!!!!! :D ), and everyone can express a different opinion. I love the diversity here. I learned a lot from Darkslider and Keene, also Infiltrator, and also the homosexuality issue.

It would be horrible if there were this one way to think and we were all trying to cotton on to what it was, so that we could get social and spiritual approval.

Mary

I gotta say something in defense of Ed. I was surprised but can understand your assessment of Ed. Let me tell you that he's not at all that way in reality. As a doctor of psychology he has a lot of book learning but also a lot of experience working with people, many of them (I dare say) suffering in some way from the effects of Mormonism. I think he has a lot of valuable information to share. I love to read what he has to say. Please know that he'd be the last person to want to hoard any kind of attention or power or authority. He has a strong aversion to such things. Mary, I can understand how you might read him as you have but believe me, he's not that way at all. :)

Jeff

[miss taken]

I gotta say something in defense of Ed. I was surprised but can understand your assessment of Ed. Let me tell you that he's not at all that way in reality. As a doctor of psychology he has a lot of book learning but also a lot of experience working with people, many of them (I dare say) suffering in some way from the effects of Mormonism. I think he has a lot of valuable information to share. I love to read what he has to say. Please know that he'd be the last person to want to hoard any kind of attention or power or authority. He has a strong aversion to such things. Mary, I can understand how you might read him as you have but believe me, he's not that way at all. :)

Jeff

No problem Jeff, I meant it in an affectionate way honest!!!! He's just so darn intelligent, rational, so I kind of accept him as having a superior brain to mine!

[peter_mary]

...but many seem to be missing the bigger point.

Don't get sidetracked on the "internet." The internet is no doubt a synergistic player in the bigger picture, but what I'm really talking about is the possibility, just the possibility, that we are witnessing one aspect of social evolution. If we are, and we understand it, then we might be able to avail ourselves to it's power...which I believe al-Qaida and the other religious fundamentalists have. If we don't understand it, then I think we are doomed to suffer at the hands of those who do.

Let me back up, and attempt to draw a larger picture.

In the 1950s, this country defined a family as a man who went to work every day, his wife who stayed home wearing an apron and fixing dinner, and 2.5 children who, if they were boys, played baseball, or if they were girls, played with dolls.

The 1960s saw a revolution of sorts, and we've seen the family redefined. Some may argue that it's a "deterioration" of family values, others just acknowledge that social needs are different. For one, women just don't "need" men to pay their bills like they once did (because of social norms). The context changes, and society changes along with it.

Now we see our society convulse in new ways, as same-sex couples seek to establish families that are acceptable to mainstream society. Some argue that it's a "deterioration" of family values, but many of us just acknowledge that the social needs are evolving, and accept the reality that society is not a static thing. But there are many, many people who cling to their vision of family from the 1950s, and recoil at how it has evolved today. Who's right? Is there a "right?" I am suggesting that evolution just happens, and that is why the old must die...to make room for those who are not limited by old ways of thinking, and can participate in shaping new societies.

(I realize that not all evolutionary paths are useful, but evolution explores infinity, so you'll always see more dead ends than real evolutionary advances.)

Same can be said for civil rights. 50 years ago, can you imagine this country talking about a black, female Secretary of State? Two African American Secretaries of State in a row? Well, there are still those who think it's "what's wrong with this country," but many of the rising generation just acknowledge it's part of the dynamic of our society. Many of them aren't even aware that it was EVER an issue in this country.

Well, what I'm talking about is the possibility that our old concept of community may be changing, and technology is a synergistic part of it...but it is only a part. The social context that we grew up with is changing...it has no choice, really...and I am really just wondering the extent to which these loosely defined, world-wide, self-governing communties are going to influence the world as we know it. Al-Qaida already is. Religious fundamentalism in this country already is (I believe). What else?

What I want to avoid is the tendency of previous generations to put their heads in the sand regarding the changes the next generation brings with them. I want to avoid saying things like, "That'll never happen!" or "We have to resist change at all costs!" Both of those things are common among the old guard of our society, but history proves that the new rolls over the old regardless. I believe my spirit, for lack of a better word, will stay fresher longer if I learn to adapt to the inevitability of cultural evolution, rather than resist it because,"it's not the way this country has done things in the past." Of course, there are going to be countless different forces pushing and pulling society in an infinity of directions, and I'll have to choose which voices I hearken to. But I want to keep moving. I want to continue to ride the wave of evolution as long as I can, and not let it pass me by.

You all are helping me do that. This kind of forum is a completely new thing for me. Aside from a few important internet relationships I developed in the context of writing for the Sugar Beet, I've never participated with this kind of community before. My guess is that many of you, particularly those under the age of 30, are well-networked electronically. I'm still learning to use my cell-phone, and I wouldn't know what to do with a PDA or an MP3 player if my life depended on it.

When I made the comparison of PostMos to al-Qaida, I knew it would be shocking to many. Hell, it's shocking to me. But I did it deliberately to force the conversation that we're having, and to help us evaluate ourselves. Are we fogeys? Are we gonna say, "That'll never happen," or are we prepared to look, learn, and evolve with powerful new paradigms?

So sure, the internet is in the mix here, but it's just one of the colors in the painting, not the painting itself, so to speak.

Peter_Mary

[dogzilla]

I gotta say something in defense of Ed. I was surprised but can understand your assessment of Ed. Let me tell you that he's not at all that way in reality. As a doctor of psychology he has a lot of book learning but also a lot of experience working with people, many of them (I dare say) suffering in some way from the effects of Mormonism. I think he has a lot of valuable information to share. I love to read what he has to say. Please know that he'd be the last person to want to hoard any kind of attention or power or authority. He has a strong aversion to such things. Mary, I can understand how you might read him as you have but believe me, he's not that way at all. :)

Jeff

Which is why I sort of see him as the Shaman/medicine man of our "tribe."

He's not our leader in the sense of "What Ed says, we will do." But he is a spiritual leader in the sense of, "Ed has healing words and if you listen to them, they might help you too."

This doesn't mean that we all have to agree with Ed exactly 100% or if Ed told me to jump off a cliff, I'd do it. It just means I value his opinion as much as anyone else's and in matters emotional, I have come to expect his input because it's often so useful in the healing process.

[Jeff_Ricks]

No problem Jeff, I meant it in an affectionate way honest!!!! He's just so darn intelligent, rational, so I kind of accept him as having a superior brain to mine!

Sorry Mary. In my haste this morning I jumped to a conclusion about what you wrote. In re-reading it I can see that you meant it affectionately. :o

Jeff

[flotsam]

In my opinion, the real value of community is found in transcending simple like-mindedness and in discovering what you share with people not like you. Acceptance of the 'other' is the key to humanity, but it is not getting any easier, despite our apparent 'progressive' culture. Just something to keep in mind as we relish the conveniences of modern life.

Do you sense any divergence on this site, or do you think we are becoming polarized into only one general mindset? I would love to hear your candid opinion!!

free thinker

Why do you think I stick around? I'm trying to save this crazy bunch of Mormon-haters. See one of these days, God is going to tell a prophet: "I'm going to destroy the Post-Mormon community with fire and brimstone." And the prophet will say, like Abraham, "If I can find but one righteous person, will you consider not destroying it?" And God will say, OK.

So the prophet will come visit and find that flotsam is here, stirring up the post-Mos to a knowledge of their fallibility, and he'll stop the destruction from raining down upon us.

Yes sir. You folks should respect me more

I say this in the name of :D Amen.

[flotsam]

In my opinion, the real value of community is found in transcending simple like-mindedness and in discovering what you share with people not like you. Acceptance of the 'other' is the key to humanity, but it is not getting any easier, despite our apparent 'progressive' culture. Just something to keep in mind as we relish the conveniences of modern life.

Do you sense any divergence on this site, or do you think we are becoming polarized into only one general mindset? I would love to hear your candid opinion!!

free thinker


But seriously folks, what you're hitting on here is very much what I've been starting to see in my own life. When I was a missionary I would teach people that we come to church because its like throwing logs onto a fire, the more we have together, the hotter and more merrily the fire burns. But as I looked around I started to see that I had mistaken the burning of the spirit or something with the comfort of having my own ideology affirmed by many people. (Bumper sticker in Alaska: Eat Moose, Ten thousand wolves can't be wrong.)

So I've started to conciously look for communities, online and off, where I'm challenged. I go to church because my heterodox ideas are challenged. BUt at the same time, I can see good going on. I come here because I like being among people who have made a huge change in their lives and are willing to talk about it. But at the same time, the basic premise I see informing the forum, mission statement notwithstanding, is that Mormonism is a pack of lies. This challenges my thinking.

If there isn't a challenge in the community I'm participating in, there really isn't much reason to be there. Life is too short.

[dogzilla]

Why do you think I stick around? I'm trying to save this crazy bunch of Mormon-haters. See one of these days, God is going to tell a prophet: "I'm going to destroy the Post-Mormon community with fire and brimstone." And the prophet will say, like Abraham, "If I can find but one righteous person, will you consider not destroying it?" And God will say, OK.

So the prophet will come visit and find that flotsam is here, stirring up the post-Mos to a knowledge of their fallibility, and he'll stop the destruction from raining down upon us.

Yes sir. You folks should respect me more

I say this in the name of :D Amen.

Pssst. Flotsam!

You encomium is showing.


:D

[dogzilla]

Bumper Sticker in Florida: We don't care how you do things Up North.



:p

[tjohnson]

So sure, the internet is in the mix here, but it's just one of the colors in the painting, not the painting itself, so to speak.

Peter_Mary

Of course I have to step in here and say something... :D

I realize this is a much more broad and "big picture" discussion, but I also want to add a few simple things... the "Internet" as we know it will only continue to grow. It's currently growing at a rate of "doubling every 3 years". What does this mean? It means at some point in the future, every means of communication will come thru the internet. This will include radio, TV, web based forums, newspaper articles, magazines, everything.

Many things now travel "thru" the net to reach the destination (radio station music, as an example is "downloaded" from a central site for the radio stations to play, etc.). Newspapers get their AP feeds over the Net. TV stations get news info over the Net.

Communication in the next 5-10 years will be totally different than it is now... Voice over IP (using the internet for telephone calls) is growing at 3 million people per year. CBS just launched their first "internet only" TV station.

The forum that PostMormon has created is only the very beginning of a completely new social structure. :D

[free thinker]

The forum that PostMormon has created is only the very beginning of a completely new social structure


I agree, and would add that because of the nature of this site, it will have an effect. If nothing else, it will be a place of refuge and healing for many. It has been for me so far.

free thinker

[free thinker]

He's not our leader in the sense of "What Ed says, we will do." But he is a spiritual leader in the sense of, "Ed has healing words and if you listen to them, they might help you too."

I know that big eddy would rather me not say this but I have to.

His article on shame is a masterpiece. It has had an effect on my life that is overwhelmingly positive.

I have never met him, but I sense that he is a kind and wise man.

Thanks bigeddy for your words of wisdom and insight!!

free thinker

[free thinker]

So the prophet will come visit and find that flotsam is here, stirring up the post-Mos to a knowledge of their fallibility, and he'll stop the destruction from raining down upon us.

Yes sir. You folks should respect me more

I say this in the name of Amen.


You're goin to hell with everyone else on this site!! :D


See you there, and don't forget to bring hangers and marshmallows!! :cool:


free thinker

[hitchiker]

So the prophet will come visit and find that flotsam is here, stirring up the post-Mos to a knowledge of their fallibility, and he'll stop the destruction from raining down upon us.

Yes sir. You folks should respect me more

I say this in the name of Amen.


You're goin to hell with everyone else on this site!! :D


See you there, and don't forget to bring hangers and marshmallows!! :cool:


free thinkeryep your right about this , but brother joe said when asked , what will you do if you find yourself in hell , joe answered , we will take the principals we have here and turn it into a heaven ( his heaven anyway ) i thought it was cool , flotsam i have some advice , if you love your church and want to stay there ,you have to do as they do , close your eyes to all else and repeat the mantra , i know its true , any other course will lead to a fatefull parting some day , as i have found myself

[free thinker]

joe answered , we will take the principals we have here and turn it into a heaven ( his heaven anyway ) i thought it was cool

That's right dangit! Were gonna have spiritual wifery there!! :cool: I wanna hang out with Joe and Brigham and all the boys!! It's gonna be a shindig with babes galore for everyone!! :cool:


free thinker

[why me]

The forum that PostMormon has created is only the very beginning of a completely new social structure


I agree, and would add that because of the nature of this site, it will have an effect. If nothing else, it will be a place of refuge and healing for many. It has been for me so far.

free thinker
I think that you are write about this site. But I also think that this site will not appeal to the majority but to a specific type of person. I don't know if I am right about this. If you notice we have a few hundred members to postmormon.org and yet we have only a handful of posters. This is quite a high inactivity rate. And it seems to me that the people who are attracted to the forum seem to need different support than the earlier posters who had the postmo stages to help them along. But I like this forum. We have good people here who have created a bond in specific ways. Certainly, if we were a big forum something would be missing. imo.