Excellent thread on FAIR

[helemon]

http://www.fairboards.org/index.php?showtopic=9669

Note to Whyme: The author of the OP mentions the fact that Joseph would instruct the women who he wished to proposition that they should burn the letter after having read it. This demonstrates that he used such a method to destroy incriminating evidence. Thus it is very conceivable that he could have used this method to destroy early drafts of the BoM.

[Born Free]

Helemon,

Great post. I loved the final paragraph.

"Well, that’s not exactly what they said. It was actually something like, “we understand your point of view, and hope you have a nice day.” And then they went to the next house where they did not provide the information needed to make a truly informed decision.

So, please tell me again, who is the anti-Mormon? "

And they wonder why people get angry with them.

They are so indoctrinated they either:

1. Figure lying for God/JS isn't lying after all, or

2. Just disassociate when the inherent truth of their religion is challenged, and simply go brain-dead.

Don't you just wish they could be had for false and misleading advertising? We had a scientist here in Oz who took a bunch of Fundy Creationists to court under misleading advertising legislation. He did not win the case, but sure put the fear-of-accountability amongst them.

Daryl

[free thinker]

First Helemon thank you for posting this.

I read until I simply came to the same conclusion that I always do when reading FARMS or FAIR information. And that is simply this.

Those who have all the information and defend it, simply cannot accept the conclusion that mormonism was built on a fraud by a fraudulent man.

I say this with absolutely no animosity. They just simply have too much to lose to accept the truth. I can relate. It was hard. But life goes on.

free thinker

[helemon]

First Helemon thank you for posting this.

I read until I simply came to the same conclusion that I always do when reading FARMS or FAIR information. And that is simply this.

Those who have all the information and defend it, simply cannot accept the conclusion that mormonism was built on a fraud by a fraudulent man.

I say this with absolutely no animosity. They just simply have too much to lose to accept the truth. I can relate. It was hard. But life goes on.

free thinker

Yeah, to the hardcore FAIR people you could prove to them that JS sodomized goats and ate babies and they would be able to brush it off and ignore it.

I was shocked however to learn that Julian has two sisters who have left the church and according to her are doing quite well without it. No thanks to her no doubt. I bet that really chaps her hiney.

Oh well, if we can't have DCP at least we still have Julian out there giving the church a black eye for her rude and unfeeling behavior toward anyone who questions the church.

[why me]

http://www.fairboards.org/index.php?showtopic=9669

Note to Whyme: The author of the OP mentions the fact that Joseph would instruct the women who he wished to proposition that they should burn the letter after having read it. This demonstrates that he used such a method to destroy incriminating evidence. Thus it is very conceivable that he could have used this method to destroy early drafts of the BoM.
I read through the thread but like most of the threads where people act like gladiators nothing really was proven either way. But I have to admit that some of what the original poster is correct. There needs to be more honesty with history and more possible explanations about it all. Also, each member would need to have what the most common attacks against the church are and how to respond to them or at least beaware of them. This would help a great deal. But all of this has been batted around so much that it is really losing its relevance in general. Joe did that and joe didn't do that just doesn't impress we much anymore. In short, each individual needs to look at the Book of Mormon and ask themselves: Is this the word of god or is it a hoax? If the person receives what they think is a personal witness or testimony of the book...then what Joe did does not really matter. If they believe it to be a hoax...then it is time to move on to some other endeavor. It is really that simple. If joe had his sauage in the pudding...well...he was not perfect and I suppose he liked sex alot and found a way to have it 'legally'. But what does this have to do with the Book of Mormon? But in fact I don't know what to believe about Joe. So much has been said in a positive and negative light that it is almost impossible to know what to believe. But if I were alive at that time I would certainly ask him for his own personal assurance that he did not write the book. I would also try to put his pants to the fire in trying to get to the truth about it all. Lets face it...it doesn't matter for what reason but he did suffer for his little book and he died for his religion. He could have saved himself and his brother by 'confessing' the truth and moved on with his life.

Now about your note which relates to something that I wrote on another thread that started a small war here at postmo.org. You see helemon I just cannot understand the logistics of it all. Here is joe a young man...spending hours and hours writing a book in a rather small community and never coming under any kind of questioning about what he is doing with his time. How many sheets of paper did it take to write this book? A couple of thousand? Or more? Where did he get the money and from whom did he buy the paper from without raising suspision? Not to mention the time it takes to come up with a story and a basic outline of the story itself. Lets put it this way: Here is Joe heading to Mr. Olsen's general store for more paper:

Joe: Hello Mr. Olsen, can I have a hundred more sheets of paper and some quilt pens and some lead pencils?
Mr. Olsen: Ummm...Joe you were here just a month ago asking for paper. What are you doing Joe with all that paper?
Joe: Ahh...you see, sir, I am doing alot of letter writing lately..plus maw needs some paper too...she is making paper dolls.
Mr. Olsen: I understand joe but it is an awful alot of paper. Are you writing a book or something? And what about the pencils and pens?
Joe: No sir...I ain't writing no book. Gosh to write a book would take too much time and paw needs all the help he can get at the farm. It is just for some letters and paper dolls.
Mr. Olsen: And Joe, someone has seen you reading the bible alot and doing some learned thinking at the local booksmiths...what are you doing there joe?
Joe: Gotta go Mr. Olsen, maw will tan my hide if I am late for supper...bye...regards to Mrs. Olsen.....

One week later:

Mrs Smith: Hello Mr Olsen, can I have a pound of sugar and two pounds of beans?
Mr. Olsen: Sure thing Mrs. Smith. That's one pound of sugar and two pounds of beans...do you need any tea?
Mrs. Smith: No thank you...that'll be fine.
Mr Olsen: How are the paper dolls comin along mrs Smith?
Mrs Smith: Paper dolls....? What paper dolls?? ( a questioning look comes into her eyes)....

But Joe is home and keeps writing his book...burning all the copies of rough drafts so that no one knows that he is writing a book to conquer the world through forming a new religion based on the book. His maw and paw are clueless and so is his brother Alvin...no one asks Joe where is has been all that time that he is away from home and no one asks him about why he is burning paper or has ink on his fingers or for that matter...sore fingers from writing too much. I cannot believe that every one in his family was in on the con because if Joe was my son, I would put him in the nut house for even coming up with such an idea or kick him out of house and bed for jerking around too much.
We have writers here on this forum. They know that it is not an easy thing to even write an essay without a plan or an outline. It takes time.
But what I just wrote is something that I need to deal with...maybe it is just too simple to understand or maybe I am an idiot...maybe I am an idiot....or crazy....
:Crazy

[peter_mary]

...JS sodomized goats and ate babies...

HE DID? Holy crap, I am SO done with this church...

:D

Peter_Mary

[free thinker]

Quote:
Originally Posted by helemon
...JS sodomized goats and ate babies...



HE DID? Holy crap, I am SO done with this church...



Peter_Mary


Peter-Mary

Are you jumping to conclusions? Perhaps you do not have the whole picture.

If he was sodomizing goats, possibly there was a divine reason for this? :o

free thinker

[hamar]

I read through the thread but like most of the threads where people act like gladiators nothing really was proven either way. But I have to admit that some of what the original poster is correct. There needs to be more honesty with history and more possible explanations about it all. Also, each member would need to have what the most common attacks against the church are and how to respond to them or at least beaware of them. This would help a great deal. But all of this has been batted around so much that it is really losing its relevance in general. Joe did that and joe didn't do that just doesn't impress we much anymore. In short, each individual needs to look at the Book of Mormon and ask themselves: Is this the word of god or is it a hoax? If the person receives what they think is a personal witness or testimony of the book...then what Joe did does not really matter. If they believe it to be a hoax...then it is time to move on to some other endeavor. It is really that simple. If joe had his sauage in the pudding...well...he was not perfect and I suppose he liked sex alot and found a way to have it 'legally'. But what does this have to do with the Book of Mormon? But in fact I don't know what to believe about Joe. So much has been said in a positive and negative light that it is almost impossible to know what to believe. But if I were alive at that time I would certainly ask him for his own personal assurance that he did not write the book. I would also try to put his pants to the fire in trying to get to the truth about it all. Lets face it...it doesn't matter for what reason but he did suffer for his little book and he died for his religion. He could have saved himself and his brother by 'confessing' the truth and moved on with his life.

Now about your note which relates to something that I wrote on another thread that started a small war here at postmo.org. You see helemon I just cannot understand the logistics of it all. Here is joe a young man...spending hours and hours writing a book in a rather small community and never coming under any kind of questioning about what he is doing with his time. How many sheets of paper did it take to write this book? A couple of thousand? Or more? Where did he get the money and from whom did he buy the paper from without raising suspision? Not to mention the time it takes to come up with a story and a basic outline of the story itself. Lets put it this way: Here is Joe heading to Mr. Olsen's general store for more paper:

Joe: Hello Mr. Olsen, can I have a hundred more sheets of paper and some quilt pens and some lead pencils?
Mr. Olsen: Ummm...Joe you were here just a month ago asking for paper. What are you doing Joe with all that paper?
Joe: Ahh...you see, sir, I am doing alot of letter writing lately..plus maw needs some paper too...she is making paper dolls.
Mr. Olsen: I understand joe but it is an awful alot of paper. Are you writing a book or something? And what about the pencils and pens?
Joe: No sir...I ain't writing no book. Gosh to write a book would take too much time and paw needs all the help he can get at the farm. It is just for some letters and paper dolls.
Mr. Olsen: And Joe, someone has seen you reading the bible alot and doing some learned thinking at the local booksmiths...what are you doing there joe?
Joe: Gotta go Mr. Olsen, maw will tan my hide if I am late for supper...bye...regards to Mrs. Olsen.....

One week later:

Mrs Smith: Hello Mr Olsen, can I have a pound of sugar and two pounds of beans?
Mr. Olsen: Sure thing Mrs. Smith. That's one pound of sugar and two pounds of beans...do you need any tea?
Mrs. Smith: No thank you...that'll be fine.
Mr Olsen: How are the paper dolls comin along mrs Smith?
Mrs Smith: Paper dolls....? What paper dolls?? ( a questioning look comes into her eyes)....

But Joe is home and keeps writing his book...burning all the copies of rough drafts so that no one knows that he is writing a book to conquer the world through forming a new religion based on the book. His maw and paw are clueless and so is his brother Alvin...no one asks Joe where is has been all that time that he is away from home and no one asks him about why he is burning paper or has ink on his fingers or for that matter...sore fingers from writing too much. I cannot believe that every one in his family was in on the con because if Joe was my son, I would put him in the nut house for even coming up with such an idea or kick him out of house and bed for jerking around too much.
We have writers here on this forum. They know that it is not an easy thing to even write an essay without a plan or an outline. It takes time.
But what I just wrote is something that I need to deal with...maybe it is just too simple to understand or maybe I am an idiot...maybe I am an idiot....or crazy....
:Crazy

It's not all that difficult if you already have ripped off someone elses research and hard work and all your are doing is reformatting it into a religious story.

Kudos to La Fleur for her great post on the fair boards. I suspect all most of the TBMs will be able to do is bear their testimony in response.

[helemon]

But what I just wrote is something that I need to deal with...maybe it is just too simple to understand or maybe I am an idiot...maybe I am an idiot....or crazy....
:Crazy

Have you read the book on the Spalding Theory? It talks about Spalding writing and rewriting his story. It also talks about personal accounts of Sidney Rigdon reworking the story for months. So my theory is still that Joseph was selected by Rigdon as a front man for his little ruse. Rigdon didn't want to put his own hide on the line and needed to test the waters. Besides he was a trained minister so people would be more inclined to think he was capable of producing the book than someone like Joseph. However I do think that Joseph also created a lot of material for the BoM. He incorporated his fathers vision of the tree of life for one. His mother said he was constantly spinning tales about the culture of the native americans long before he supposedly received the gold plates. So he may have also been working on some material in his own mind for sometime.

Perhaps Joseph put the stone in the hat a) to hold down the paper notes and b) to give himself an excuse for why he kept reaching into the hat to flip over the notes?

[why me]

Have you read the book on the Spalding Theory? It talks about Spalding writing and rewriting his story. It also talks about personal accounts of Sidney Rigdon reworking the story for months. So my theory is still that Joseph was selected by Rigdon as a front man for his little ruse. Rigdon didn't want to put his own hide on the line and needed to test the waters. Besides he was a trained minister so people would be more inclined to think he was capable of producing the book than someone like Joseph. However I do think that Joseph also created a lot of material for the BoM. He incorporated his fathers vision of the tree of life for one. His mother said he was constantly spinning tales about the culture of the native americans long before he supposedly received the gold plates. So he may have also been working on some material in his own mind for sometime.

Perhaps Joseph put the stone in the hat a) to hold down the paper notes and b) to give himself an excuse for why he kept reaching into the hat to flip over the notes?
Browdie does not seem to toe that line and I think that she knocks out the spalding theory. I cannot be sure about this but at least I think that she does. Ridgon would have come clean when Young too over the church...but instead he said nothing about what you mentioned. In Browdie she gives sets of possiblities about joe writing the book but does not mention how he could have gotten the paper and ink to do the job. She has Joe writing the book from his own family experience and how he needed to convert his family first. But no explanation of the time involved in the writing and the amount of paper involved. If he were my kid...I would have tanned his bacon for wasting good time all those years or at least I would have questioned my son on his whereabouts while he was writing the book...nope my problem still stands, I think. Gosh I would love to see something in Joe's own hand that condemns the book...then we can all go home and watch TV....

[why me]

It's not all that difficult if you already have ripped off someone elses research and hard work and all your are doing is reformatting it into a religious story.

Kudos to La Fleur for her great post on the fair boards. I suspect all most of the TBMs will be able to do is bear their testimony in response.
Strange, but I don't think that people were so stupid during that time that they could not figure out a forgery or a fake. Those theories have been around but these theories have very little impact anymore. Of course, some people do fall away but these theories can get an opposite response from the TBM's at FAIR. I have said it previously, that we can only speculate at the moment but there are no definite facts either way...only faith in the side that we believe based on our own personal knowledge and reflection. But this is only my opinion... :)

[helemon]

Browdie does not seem to toe that line and I think that she knocks out the spalding theory. I cannot be sure about this but at least I think that she does. Ridgon would have come clean when Young too over the church...

I don't think she had all the information that is presented in the Spalding book. Rigdon did try to take control of the church but he lacked popular support. I forget who was the popular choice immediately after Joseph's death, I'll look that up tonight, but I recall reading about evidence that BY had instructed the bishop of Nauvoo? to poison this man so that he would not be installed as prophet before BY could return from England. After seeing that and knowing he didn't have the popular support I doubt Rigdon would have challenged anyone. If he had it could have cost him his life and destroyed what he had worked to build. I think the Spalding book has a second hand statement from Rigdon saying he plagarized the BoM. I'll try to track down that info tonight. It has been a while before I looked at the Spalding book.

[why me]

I don't think she had all the information that is presented in the Spalding book. Rigdon did try to take control of the church but he lacked popular support. I forget who was the popular choice immediately after Joseph's death, I'll look that up tonight, but I recall reading about evidence that BY had instructed the bishop of Nauvoo? to poison this man so that he would not be installed as prophet before BY could return from England. After seeing that and knowing he didn't have the popular support I doubt Rigdon would have challenged anyone. If he had it could have cost him his life and destroyed what he had worked to build. I think the Spalding book has a second hand statement from Rigdon saying he plagarized the BoM. I'll try to track down that info tonight. It has been a while before I looked at the Spalding book.
I misunderstood your post. I thought you were writing about Solomon Spaulding and how Joseph stole the book from him. I think that I remember that kind of story somewhere in the Browdie book. I never heard of that book you mentioned. Good luck with the search... :)

[meinmachine]

I read through the thread but like most of the threads where people act like gladiators nothing really was proven either way. But I have to admit that some of what the original poster is correct. There needs to be more honesty with history and more possible explanations about it all. Also, each member would need to have what the most common attacks against the church are and how to respond to them or at least beaware of them. This would help a great deal. But all of this has been batted around so much that it is really losing its relevance in general. Joe did that and joe didn't do that just doesn't impress we much anymore. In short, each individual needs to look at the Book of Mormon and ask themselves: Is this the word of god or is it a hoax? If the person receives what they think is a personal witness or testimony of the book...then what Joe did does not really matter. If they believe it to be a hoax...then it is time to move on to some other endeavor. It is really that simple. If joe had his sauage in the pudding...well...he was not perfect and I suppose he liked sex alot and found a way to have it 'legally'. But what does this have to do with the Book of Mormon? But in fact I don't know what to believe about Joe. So much has been said in a positive and negative light that it is almost impossible to know what to believe. But if I were alive at that time I would certainly ask him for his own personal assurance that he did not write the book. I would also try to put his pants to the fire in trying to get to the truth about it all. Lets face it...it doesn't matter for what reason but he did suffer for his little book and he died for his religion. He could have saved himself and his brother by 'confessing' the truth and moved on with his life.

Now about your note which relates to something that I wrote on another thread that started a small war here at postmo.org. You see helemon I just cannot understand the logistics of it all. Here is joe a young man...spending hours and hours writing a book in a rather small community and never coming under any kind of questioning about what he is doing with his time. How many sheets of paper did it take to write this book? A couple of thousand? Or more? Where did he get the money and from whom did he buy the paper from without raising suspision? Not to mention the time it takes to come up with a story and a basic outline of the story itself. Lets put it this way: Here is Joe heading to Mr. Olsen's general store for more paper:

Joe: Hello Mr. Olsen, can I have a hundred more sheets of paper and some quilt pens and some lead pencils?
Mr. Olsen: Ummm...Joe you were here just a month ago asking for paper. What are you doing Joe with all that paper?
Joe: Ahh...you see, sir, I am doing alot of letter writing lately..plus maw needs some paper too...she is making paper dolls.
Mr. Olsen: I understand joe but it is an awful alot of paper. Are you writing a book or something? And what about the pencils and pens?
Joe: No sir...I ain't writing no book. Gosh to write a book would take too much time and paw needs all the help he can get at the farm. It is just for some letters and paper dolls.
Mr. Olsen: And Joe, someone has seen you reading the bible alot and doing some learned thinking at the local booksmiths...what are you doing there joe?
Joe: Gotta go Mr. Olsen, maw will tan my hide if I am late for supper...bye...regards to Mrs. Olsen.....

One week later:

Mrs Smith: Hello Mr Olsen, can I have a pound of sugar and two pounds of beans?
Mr. Olsen: Sure thing Mrs. Smith. That's one pound of sugar and two pounds of beans...do you need any tea?
Mrs. Smith: No thank you...that'll be fine.
Mr Olsen: How are the paper dolls comin along mrs Smith?
Mrs Smith: Paper dolls....? What paper dolls?? ( a questioning look comes into her eyes)....

But Joe is home and keeps writing his book...burning all the copies of rough drafts so that no one knows that he is writing a book to conquer the world through forming a new religion based on the book. His maw and paw are clueless and so is his brother Alvin...no one asks Joe where is has been all that time that he is away from home and no one asks him about why he is burning paper or has ink on his fingers or for that matter...sore fingers from writing too much. I cannot believe that every one in his family was in on the con because if Joe was my son, I would put him in the nut house for even coming up with such an idea or kick him out of house and bed for jerking around too much.
We have writers here on this forum. They know that it is not an easy thing to even write an essay without a plan or an outline. It takes time.
But what I just wrote is something that I need to deal with...maybe it is just too simple to understand or maybe I am an idiot...maybe I am an idiot....or crazy....
:Crazy
Are you suggesting Joe was a prophet of God? Did he really translate the book of Mormon and not just make it up. Are you serious? :confused:

[helemon]

I would have tanned his bacon for wasting good time all those years or at least I would have questioned my son on his whereabouts while he was writing the book...

Why? According to his mother his stories provided the family with hours of entertainment. His father shared his love of fantasy and magic and participated in some of the treasure seeking. They were destitute so why not let the boy work on his stories at night especially if there was a chance it could lead to money? Their family was cheated out of a small fortune in the sale of Joe Sr. ginseng crop why not engage in a bit of harmless deception of the locals? Going by Palmers book it is clear that the traveling preachers of Joe Jrs. day had a profound impact on him and much of the text is borrowed from the scriptures and the preaching style of these men. Also why are you assuming that the text was heavily edited? If it had been the church would not have needed to make those thousands of changes.

[hamar]

Browdie does not seem to toe that line and I think that she knocks out the spalding theory. I cannot be sure about this but at least I think that she does. Ridgon would have come clean when Young too over the church...but instead he said nothing about what you mentioned. In Browdie she gives sets of possiblities about joe writing the book but does not mention how he could have gotten the paper and ink to do the job. She has Joe writing the book from his own family experience and how he needed to convert his family first. But no explanation of the time involved in the writing and the amount of paper involved. If he were my kid...I would have tanned his bacon for wasting good time all those years or at least I would have questioned my son on his whereabouts while he was writing the book...nope my problem still stands, I think. Gosh I would love to see something in Joe's own hand that condemns the book...then we can all go home and watch TV....


Go home and watching TV? How boring, this is much more fun. There is a new book on the Spaulding Enigma that alegedly covers much more territory and issues that the authors feel explain how Fawn Brodie could have missed some important stuff and thereby come to her conclusionsm, and why it makes sense that Sid could have stolen Spaulding's manuscript and been in touch with Joe in time to help craft the text and storyline for the BOM. It's called "Who Really Wrote The Book of Mormon?" Authors are: Wayne L. Cowdrey, Howard A. Davis, Arthur Vanick. I got it from Amazon. 558 pages.

[helemon]

Go home and watching TV? How boring, this is much more fun. There is a new book on the Spaulding Enigma that alegedly covers much more territory and issues that the authors feel explain how Fawn Brodie could have missed some important stuff and thereby come to her conclusionsm, and why it makes sense that Sid could have stolen Spaulding's manuscript and been in touch with Joe in time to help craft the text and storyline for the BOM. It's called "Who Really Wrote The Book of Mormon?" Authors are: Wayne L. Cowdrey, Howard A. Davis, Arthur Vanick. I got it from Amazon. 558 pages.

That's the one. Good book.

[hamar]

Strange, but I don't think that people were so stupid during that time that they could not figure out a forgery or a fake. Those theories have been around but these theories have very little impact anymore. Of course, some people do fall away but these theories can get an opposite response from the TBM's at FAIR. I have said it previously, that we can only speculate at the moment but there are no definite facts either way...only faith in the side that we believe based on our own personal knowledge and reflection. But this is only my opinion... :)

I agree with your comment about people being able to figure out a forgery of fake. I believe there were plenty of folks that recognized it for just that, a forgery and a fake. However, just like most everything else, except for the BofA, there really is no hard evidence out there and the apoligists simply shrug and put a circular spin on any sensible challenges by attacking the weakest point they can find and ignoring the real issues.
The early "anti-mormons" have been silenced by time and by burying a lot of history in the basement of the great and abominable church building. I think there is a lot more good and sensible evidence brought out in the latest book on the subject of the Spaulding Enigma, mentioned in my previous post; however, I'm sure that the apologists will have a great time with it, because there is no hard evidence, just a lot of good circumstantial evidence. Keep in mind that when you add all the evidence up, even circumstantial evidence can get a guilty plea from a fair and balanced jury (it's probably not possible to get a fair and balance jury on this issue though).

[helemon]

I misunderstood your post. I thought you were writing about Solomon Spaulding and how Joseph stole the book from him. I think that I remember that kind of story somewhere in the Browdie book. I never heard of that book you mentioned. Good luck with the search... :)

http://www.i4m.com/think/leaders/brigham_murder.htm
Michael Quinn, from The Mormon Hierarchy : Origins of Power explains what happened next:

"Then Samuel Smith suddenly became violently ill and died on 30 July 1844. This added suspicion of murder to the escalating drama. Council of Fifty member and physician John M. Bernhisel told William Smith that anti-Mormons had somehow poisoned his brother. William learned from Samuel's widow that Hosea Stout, a Missouri Danite and senior officer of Nauvoo's police, had acted as his brother's nurse. Stout had given him "white powder" medicine daily until his death. Samuel became ill within days of the discussion of his succession right, and by 24 July was "very sick." There had been enough talk about Samuel's succession claims that the newspaper in Springfield, Illinois, reported: "A son of Joe Smith [Sr.] it is said, had received the revelation that he was to be the successor of the prophet."

"William Smith eventually concluded that Apostle Willard Richards asked Stout to murder (his brother) Samuel H. Smith. The motive was to prevent Samuel from becoming church president before Brigham Young and the full Quorum of Twelve arrived (in Navuoo). William's suspicions about Stout are believable since Brigham Young allowed William Clayton to go with the pioneer company to Utah three years later only because Stout threatened to murder Clayton as soon as the apostles left. Clayton regarded Hosea Stout as capable of homicide and recorded no attempt by Young to dispute that assessment concerning the former Danite."

"One could dismiss William Smith's charge as a self-serving argument for his own succession claim, yet Samuel's daughter also believed her father was murdered. "My father was undoubtedly poisoned," she wrote. "Uncle Arthur Millikin was poisoned at the same time-the same doctors were treating my father and Uncle Arthur at the same time. Uncle Arthur discontinued the medicine-without letting them know that he was doing so. (Aunt Lucy [Smith Millikin] threw it in the fire). Father continued taking it until the last dose-he spit out and said he was poisoned. But it was too late-he died." Nauvoo's sexton recorded that Samuel Smith died of "bilious fever," the cause of death listed for two children but no other adults that summer."

http://www.solomonspalding.com/docs/1882PatA.htm#pg433b
7. Rev. Samuel Williams, of Castle Shannon, Allegheny Co., Pa., a successor of Rigdon in the pastorate of the First Baptist Church, Pittsburgh, published in 1842, as already stated, a pamphlet entitled "Mormonism Exposed." On page 4 he says, "In 1818, and far some years afterwards, Patterson & Lambdin were the principal firm engaged in printing and publishing books. The widow of Mr. Spaulding states that it (her husband's romance) was taken to that printing-office, and Mr. Patterson and many others of this city knew that Mr. Rigdon and Mr. Lambdin, who superintended the printing-office, were very intimate during Rigdon's residence here." On page 16, Mr. Williams expresses his conviction "that the manuscript remained in the office with others from 1814 until Sidney Rigdon came to this place and obtained it from Lambdin."

9. Mrs. Amos Dunlap, of Warren, Ohio, in answer to inquiries, writes Dec. 7, 1879, --

"When I was quite a child I visited Mr. Rigdon's family. He married my aunt. They at that time lived in Bainbridge, Ohio. During my visit Mr. Rigdon went to his bedroom and took from a trunk which he kept locked a certain manuscript. He came out into the other room and seated himself by the fireplace and commenced reading it. His wife at that moment came into the room and exclaimed, 'What! you're studying that thing again?' or something to that effect. She then added, 'I mean to burn that paper.' He said, 'No, indeed, you will not. This will be a great thing some day!' Whenever he was reading this he was so completely occupied that he seemed entirely unconscious of anything passing around him."

"A mysterious stranger now appears at Smith's residence, and holds private interviews with the far-famed money-digger. For a considerable length of time no intimation of the name or purpose of this personage transpired to the public, not even to Smith's nearest neighbors. It was observed by some of them that his visits were frequently repeated. The sequel of these private interviews between the stranger and the money-digger will sufficiently appear hereafter." {Great consternation was occasioned by the theft of one hundred and sixteen pages of Smith's translation from the golden plates, as it seems to have been impossible to retranslate the stolen portion. Whereupon (p. 46)} "The reappearance of the mysterious stranger at Smith's was again the subject of inquiry and conjecture by observers, from whom was withheld all explanation of his identity or purpose." {At last the Book of Mormon was printed, Rigdon was among the first converts, and Mr. Tucker says (p. 75):} "Up to this time Sidney Rigdon had played his part in the background and his occasional visits at Smith's residence had been noticed by uninitiated observers as those of the mysterious stranger. It had been his policy to remain in concealment until all things should be in readiness for blowing the trumpet of the new gospel.... This man Rigdon now appeared as the first regular Mormon preacher in Palmyra".... "Who can doubt that he and Smith had become confederates in a grand scheme of cupidity and imposture? They had surreptitiously possessed themselves of a fabulous composition peculiarly adapted to their design. Secrecy and falsehood were necessary to the success of such a scheme, and to these, it is self-evident, they were mutually sworn." (p. 121.)

[why me]

Are you suggesting Joe was a prophet of God? Did he really translate the book of Mormon and not just make it up. Are you serious? :confused:
No I am not suggesting that at all. I am only trying to say that I cannot take a side one way or the other. I do not have this absolute idea about the book whether it be true or false. I cannot claim falsehood when it comes to the book of mormon and I cannot claim truth. I am not prepared to take a stance. I only gave my problem with discounting the book. But it would be great to believe one way or the other. I have to admire the people who do. Strange, but I would have no problem in discounting the koran or Mary Baker Eddy's book but the book of mormon is much more difficult for me. It is in my blood I suppose. That is all that I am trying to say. I am not a guy who has followed the commandments...in fact I have been a terrible LDS person for many reasons...but I just cannot forget that feeling that I had when I prayed about the book....but I cannot live the religion either. And so here is my contradiction....I suppose I am not alone in this contradiction. I hope that I made myself clear....take care... :)

[why me]

http://www.i4m.com/think/leaders/brigham_murder.htm


http://www.solomonspalding.com/docs/1882PatA.htm#pg433b
The thing is that I cannot say that this impresses me much. Everyone usually has an agenda when writing these things. But what is truth in this regard? I cannot rely on someone else's testimony...all facts would need to be checked out and confirmed. Would this evidence fly in a court of law? I doubt it. First hand testimony is what is important and then proven. I would love the book of mormon to be a forgery and absolutely proven to be flase by the evidence but I don't think that that has happened yet. At least I haven't seen it. It is such a strange thing really. I sometimes think why does it matter if it is true or not...I just want to be a human being on a human journey...but like I said in the past...we will all know the truth when we die...regardless of what may happen then....I just take a why_me position when it comes to church and also when it comes to my life. Thanks for the imformation helemon...take care... :)

[helemon]

First hand testimony is what is important and then proven. I would love the book of mormon to be a forgery and absolutely proven to be flase by the evidence but I don't think that that has happened yet.

What evidence is there that it is true? There is ample evidence that it is a forgery; genetic, translation errors, linguistical, metallurgical, botanical, zoological, logical, and from the material posted earlier, reports from people close to Rigdon indicating that he stole the manuscript for the basis of the BoM. Rigdon's wife apparently threatened to burn the manuscript, Joseph told young girls to burn the letters he gave them. I just can't figure out why these things do not convince you that it is a forgery or fraud. But oh well, if you must cling to it for some reason that's your perogative.

[why me]

What evidence is there that it is true? There is ample evidence that it is a forgery; genetic, translation errors, linguistical, metallurgical, botanical, zoological, logical, and from the material posted earlier, reports from people close to Rigdon indicating that he stole the manuscript for the basis of the BoM. Rigdon's wife apparently threatened to burn the manuscript, Joseph told young girls to burn the letters he gave them. I just can't figure out why these things do not convince you that it is a forgery or fraud. But oh well, if you must cling to it for some reason that's your perogative.
There are always two sides to this issue. I can't go either way on this one. I said what my problem is in putting the book of mormon in the dustbin of history. If a person no longer wants to believe there are plenty of websites and knowledge to reinforce that opinion and if a person wants to believe, there the websites that reinforce that belief. It is a pinpong ball issue with no winners or losers..it just comes down to what a person wants to believe but I cannot say that you are wrong but I cannot say that mormons are wrong. I am in middle...maybe I am the monkey in the middle....but what will be will be when it comes the book of mormon.

[peter_mary]

There are always two sides to this issue. I can't go either way on this one. I said what my problem is in putting the book of mormon in the dustbin of history. If a person no longer wants to believe there are plenty of websites and knowledge to reinforce that opinion and if a person wants to believe, there the websites that reinforce that belief. It is a pinpong ball issue with no winners or losers..it just comes down to what a person wants to believe

Ultimately, "a man hears what he wants to hear, and disregards the rest." (Interesting that in the Simon & Garfunkle song from which I borrowed this line, The Boxer, what follows is the refrain, "Lie, lie, lie, lie, lie, lie, lie.")

Faith, I suppose, is the remarkable ability of human beings to believe in something for which there is no direct experience, but which he or she chooses to adhere to for reasons of personal preference and personal experience that seems relevant. As Why_me has pointed out, there is all the evidence you want on either side of this issue.

We saw the same thing over on the Intelligent Design thread...ultimately, it is not possible to "know" some things. At some point, you just throw up your hands and surrender, and toss your faith into one camp or the other...but it doesn't make you right...it merely makes you more confident.

Peter_Mary

[why me]

Ultimately, "a man hears what he wants to hear, and disregards the rest." (Interesting that in the Simon & Garfunkle song from which I borrowed this line, The Boxer, what follows is the refrain, "Lie, lie, lie, lie, lie, lie, lie.")

Faith, I suppose, is the remarkable ability of human beings to believe in something for which there is no direct experience, but which he or she chooses to adhere to for reasons of personal preference and personal experience that seems relevant. As Why_me has pointed out, there is all the evidence you want on either side of this issue.

We saw the same thing over on the Intelligent Design thread...ultimately, it is not possible to "know" some things. At some point, you just throw up your hands and surrender, and toss your faith into one camp or the other...but it doesn't make you right...it merely makes you more confident.

Peter_Mary
So true...and I lack that confidence to choose sides one way or the other. I am just in the middle not knowing what is truth and what is falsehood. I have to admit it would be better to have a side...a side which I could have total faith in but I don't at this moment have one when it comes to the book of mormon. Thanks for the post...