Odd Religious Traditions

[peter_mary]

I've often remarked to myself and others how strange it is that smart, educated people could go to the temple, participate in the rites and rituals, don the holy underwear, and leave without being utterly aghast at what their religion requires them to do.

Then today I was reminded that, alas, Mormons are not alone in the bizzaro world of religious practices.

I was checking out the online headlines regarding the removal of Israelies from the occupied Gaza strip, and there was a man being forcibly removed, wearing a shirt that could be from Abercrombie and Fitch, faded Levis, a hair cut like half the Jewish men of New York might wear, in other words, nothing unusual about him at all...except for the incredibly strange little leather boxes bound to his forearm and his head...the phylacteries required as a part of his worship, and as a show of his piety.

Little leather boxes strapped to your forehead with little scriptures tucked inside is a pretty weird thing. Imagine THAT one in Sunday School. Actually, I suppose it could come in handy. Remember when you used to attend Gospel Doctrine, and the SS teacher would hand out those little slips of paper with a scripture that you're supposed to read when it's your turn? Well, if you were wearing a phylactery on your forehead, you'd have a place to keep it.

:D How cool would THAT be?

I also recall strolling through old town in Albuquerque, and stumbling upon a little shrine to the Virgin of Guadalupe (Mary, the Mother of God who appeared to a couple of young girls in Guadalupe...probably 14 year-olds, knowing how diety tends to operate :p ). The shrine was kind of like a miniature Church, a single room with an alter and a statue of Mary at the far end. There were candles and little prayers scrawled on scraps of paper all over the alter. Of course, being the cretan that I am, I had the audacity to read some of the prayers, especially ones written on the backs of grocery receipts and the likes. The one I remember was, "Please, Virgin, I am almost out of money. Help me win the lottery so I can pay my bills." I'll bet she did, too, 'cause she's that kind of gal.

Anyway, it is occassionaly helpful for me to remember that bizarro behavior in the context of religion is hardly restricted to the Mormons.

So anyone know where I can buy a phylactery? I'm just dying to wear a box on my face...and I'll need one to strap to the statue of Mary that I'm putting in my garden, right next to my Happy Buddha.

Peter_Mary

[Fredl]

Peter, your posts are always very interesting. I think you'd make a great dinner guest. Ever had Filipino food? Whether or no, I'll bet you'd like my wife's cooking.

Anyway, the last couple of nights, I've been watching "Going Tribal" on TV. I think, the Discovery channel. WONDERFUL show. It's pretty surprizing to see how different truly tribal people behave from us and the things they accept as perfectly ordinary. Last night, the principle protagonist stayed a month with folks who use stone axes, wooden impliments and no metal of any sort. They live in houses on stilts with no aircon, TV or or other modern amenities. Needlless to say, theirs is a world very different from ours. Night before last, the women put clay disks into their hugely distended lips and the national sport was stick fighting.

It seems that in the modern world, to a degree never seen in history, different worlds are rubbing up against each other. What the human mind seems able to adjust to and accept as normal or even sacred is incredibly wide and varied. I feel like there is a lesson in all this and it goes beyond pointing out how absurd these people's ways are to those of us who don't share them.

Fred

[cactus jack]

I don't know if it's really a religious tradition, but I know in my family it's customary to offer a gift or gifts to the parents of the bride. Like if I married your daughter, it's normal for me to give you something of worth. No fancy expensive stuff. Like when I "married" my ex, I gave her mother a 50# bag of anasazi beans (because she loved those kind of beans). Man, you wanna talk about wigged out? Her mother almost went psychotic. Because to her that was an unknown tradition. The way people react to a different tradition is really screwed up. Different cultures made America, yet we're to dispose of our traditions, even if they are "harmless"?

[peter_mary]

Needlless to say, theirs is a world very different from ours. Night before last, the women put clay disks into their hugely distended lips and the national sport was stick fighting.

What the human mind seems able to adjust to and accept as normal or even sacred is incredibly wide and varied. I feel like there is a lesson in all this and it goes beyond pointing out how absurd these people's ways are to those of us who don't share them.

Fred

This is a helpful reminder...sometimes we get pretty accustomed to the wackiness in our own culture, and we call it "weird", but the wackiness in other cultures we often find "interesting" or "diverse."

I would be disinclined to wink, nod and jab my elbows into your ribcage if I saw a tribal woman with clay disks in her lips or rings that stretch her neck, but if I see a woman's garment's showing below her shorts, then it's just a hoot.

But really, what's the difference?

Peter_Mary

[Fredl]

Well, like I said, clearly, there's got to be a lesson in all this. It's just that I'm not getting it!

Fred

[elder_nomo]

This is a helpful reminder...sometimes we get pretty accustomed to the wackiness in our own culture, and we call it "weird", but the wackiness in other cultures we often find "interesting" or "diverse."

I would be disinclined to wink, nod and jab my elbows into your ribcage if I saw a tribal woman with clay disks in her lips or rings that stretch her neck, but if I see a woman's garment's showing below her shorts, then it's just a hoot.

But really, what's the difference?

Peter_Mary

Maybe the difference is that in the case of the garments, we've been there. And we're kind of laughing at ourselves.

[why me]

I've often remarked to myself and others how strange it is that smart, educated people could go to the temple, participate in the rites and rituals, don the holy underwear, and leave without being utterly aghast at what their religion requires them to do.

Then today I was reminded that, alas, Mormons are not alone in the bizzaro world of religious practices.

I was checking out the online headlines regarding the removal of Israelies from the occupied Gaza strip, and there was a man being forcibly removed, wearing a shirt that could be from Abercrombie and Fitch, faded Levis, a hair cut like half the Jewish men of New York might wear, in other words, nothing unusual about him at all...except for the incredibly strange little leather boxes bound to his forearm and his head...the phylacteries required as a part of his worship, and as a show of his piety.

Little leather boxes strapped to your forehead with little scriptures tucked inside is a pretty weird thing. Imagine THAT one in Sunday School. Actually, I suppose it could come in handy. Remember when you used to attend Gospel Doctrine, and the SS teacher would hand out those little slips of paper with a scripture that you're supposed to read when it's your turn? Well, if you were wearing a phylactery on your forehead, you'd have a place to keep it.

:D How cool would THAT be?

I also recall strolling through old town in Albuquerque, and stumbling upon a little shrine to the Virgin of Guadalupe (Mary, the Mother of God who appeared to a couple of young girls in Guadalupe...probably 14 year-olds, knowing how diety tends to operate :p ). The shrine was kind of like a miniature Church, a single room with an alter and a statue of Mary at the far end. There were candles and little prayers scrawled on scraps of paper all over the alter. Of course, being the cretan that I am, I had the audacity to read some of the prayers, especially ones written on the backs of grocery receipts and the likes. The one I remember was, "Please, Virgin, I am almost out of money. Help me win the lottery so I can pay my bills." I'll bet she did, too, 'cause she's that kind of gal.

Anyway, it is occassionaly helpful for me to remember that bizarro behavior in the context of religion is hardly restricted to the Mormons.

So anyone know where I can buy a phylactery? I'm just dying to wear a box on my face...and I'll need one to strap to the statue of Mary that I'm putting in my garden, right next to my Happy Buddha.

Peter_Mary
I suppose the question is: Do religions deserve out respect regardless of the rituals and beliefs? I don't believe in human sacrifice etc and so I do not mean those kind of bizarre rituals but it terms of benign rituals of christians, hindu's, moslems, jews etc. Of course here at postmo.org there has been much criticism of mormon rituals but not much of other faiths. But should rituals be criticised at all? I think that mormons are rather benign in their rituals. Lets look at the birka in afghanistan and compare that to mormon stances on modesty. Plus the bizarre dress of the hasidim in summer (heavy clothes on men with hot fedora hat and all and compare that to temple garments. Good jews eat kosher foods but compare that to the words of wisdom. Orthodox christians spend a lot of time kissing icons and lighting candles and smelling scents during worship...compare that to the temple. Catholics pray to the virgin mary and other saints for help in life and in death...compare that to mormon understanding of prayer. Religion is strange...catholics put ash on their forehead and some christians have holy water. Mormons are not so strange really...mormons are just in the mix...and what about the holy cow of the hindus? We are all in the mix...and what about the amish? Mormons are rather normal when compared to others... and what about the wiccans...... :)

[peter_mary]

Maybe the difference is that in the case of the garments, we've been there. And we're kind of laughing at ourselves.

Elder_nomo! I'll bet that's it! :duh

What's more, I'll wager it's more than just laughing at ourselves, we're probably even a little bit ashamed. I know I am!

And frankly, all the Christian traditions and Jewish traditions are too close to home, and so it probably seems weird to me, in part because I realize I believed TOO closely for comfort.

For instance...while I never actually believed in the Catholic tradition of the little wafer and wine literally morphing into the flesh and blood of Jesus (Can you say "ick"?), the Mormon sacrament isn't too far off. What's the difference between symbollically eating god and actually eating god?

Did you hear that? We kill and then eat our god. How friggin' weird is that? :Puking

So the Catholic tradition of transubstantiation seems wacko to me because of my own shame in having participated in such close proximity by virtue of the Mormon sacrament.

But the obviously strange and bizarre practices of many tribal people I can appreciate from a cultural perspective because I feel no sense of identification, either good or bad, with any of those traditions. I have never expected the women in my world to stretch their necks with brass rings, and so I can observe it from a safe distance. It's so foreign that I don't identify, and hence I don't personalize the practice and it's associated culutural baggage.

But I have expected the women in my world to be subservient to the Priesthood, (long ago in a galaxy far, far away), so now when I observe traditions that take that kind of subservience to the extreme, such as veiling, not allowing women basic rights, genital mutilation, etc., there is a certain degree of shame on my part...and so I distance myself by labeling those practices as wacko. I get indignant and angry, but no doubt it is my own shame that has poked into a hostile reaction.

Hmm...this is helpful.

Peter_Mary

[Fredl]

This whole thing about feeling ashamed I think may be one of the most critical, as well as delicate, of the Post Mormon issues. A lot like the experience of the great majority of folks who find themselves in Twelve Step Programs. I know it is in Alanon.

Well, I don't have any advice for anybody, but I can tell you about my experience with this issue.

Over the years, I had a lot of trouble with my wife. She has a H... of a temper. The pattern of our life together seemed to be we'd do fine for a period of time, then something would make her angry. I'd ignore her for a little while, then her anger would make me crazy and I'd fall into a downward spiral of despair and depression until I became completely crazed. Eventually, after all sorts of dramatic acting out by both of us, something would tip the scales and we'd make up.

Finally, after realizing the church would (or more likely, could) not help me, I went back to Alanon, where I did get help.

I won't go into the whole course of self improvement I went through. Suffice it to say, what I came to see was that there was a certain point in time that I let go of my sanity and accepted her version of reality. THAT was when it happened and the reason I did it was because that seemed to me the only way I could maintain my relationship with her. And, I came to decide that my sanity was more important to me than my relationship with ANYBODY.

The result of this insight was that the next time she became irrationally angry, I simply ignored her.

For about 8 months.

The problem was that I had her very well trained to believe that she could control me with her anger.

Well, the next time was a whole lot less than 8 months. Today, she still gets angry pretty easiy, but she gets over it quickly and it affects our relationship very little. It just doesn't accomplish a whole lot with me anymore.

Now, what, dear reader, does this have to do with shame?

I believe that shame is simply our way of dealing with our expectations of how other people will regard us and adopting a position that we imagine will keep us in relationship with them. It is an unconscious decision which may be made conscious.

I do not choose to regard my time as a Mormon as a shameful episode in my life, but one during which I gained a lot of benefit and which I am completely OK with. If somebody asked me about becoming a Mormon based on my experience, I'd be pretty much neutral, saying there are great benefits, but they come at a price.

There is an Alanon saying I am very fond of: What anybody else thinks of me is none of my business. I don't care what anybody thinks of how I run my life in general or what they make of my relationship with the Mormon Church. What I find, taking this position, is that the people who like me do so for the right reasons and I don't surround myself with people who simply enjoy my act.

Fred

[Born Free]

I walk past a church as I go to my gym, and this week they had a sign about the message for the week, which was along the lines "Jerusalem - location for Christ's return".

I got to wondering yesterday after I passed it, how does a culture which is northern European based - as Australia is in the British Empire and before that the Celts largely - ever get to embrace the notion of a radical Jew as its Saviour, based in a religion whose notion of God and Salvation is anchored in semetic religions.

Sit back from that idea, and ask yourself - is that strange or not? Why should a people adopt anothers God and God-beliefs? Of course our adoption largely came compliments of the Roman Empire, its pervasive influence at one time, and the link between Church and State.

The whole idea that God has a special people is SOooooo primitive, and that to be OK with God, we need to be adopted into the Tribe of Isreal is just so dumb! How do intelligent people ever take that sort of tribal superiority drivel on board. As I write this I just have to look at the news and the problems getting Jews out of Gaza to see how scary its gets when someone believes they are God's Chosen, and that God personally promised them a piece of land.

But I grew up on a diet of Bible stories every Sunday, without so much as a second thought as to why I should be listening to stories based in the middle east, not in my cultural tradition. Unless we stop one day and stand back and look at this model objectively, we stay captive of its cute elitist thinking, seduced by its central message that we are superiour.

How infantile.

If we are trained that part of being the elite is that we wear funny hats, or eat certain foods, worship a different day of the week etc., etc., then that gets taken on board equally unconsciously. And many religions have a vested interest in people remaining unconscious, unquestioning.

Daryl