question re: doc. and cov.

[candy15]

Hello! I have been on for a long while and have just been soaking up as much information as I can on this site. But I do have a question: can anyone tell me where in the doctrine and covenants it suggests that a man may have more than one wife after divorce but a woman may not? I believe it was something to that effect. Thanks. :)

[helemon]

Hello! I have been on for a long while and have just been soaking up as much information as I can on this site. But I do have a question: can anyone tell me where in the doctrine and covenants it suggests that a man may have more than one wife after divorce but a woman may not? I believe it was something to that effect. Thanks. :)

DC 132 is the section on polygamy. But what you seem to be referring to is the continued practice of allowing men to be sealed for eternity to a second wife in the temple after the first wife has died. There is nothing that says they can have a civil divorce and then keep the marriage eternally inforce while marrying a second wife or by divorcing the first wife gaining the right to marry more than one wife.

[candy15]

Thanks, Helemon. Not sure if this is the piece of the D&C I had read. I recall something about it alluding to the fact that men may have more wives in the next life. Something to that effect. :)

[candy15]

Oops. Helemon, I shouldn't have read D&C 132. Bad news for the broads, I thinketh. :duh

[free thinker]

Oops. Helemon, I shouldn't have read D&C 132. Bad news for the broads, I thinketh.


Candy

After Joe dictated this to his scribe he was afraid to show it to his wife Emma. So his brother Hyrum took it to her. After she read it she gave him one hell of a tongue lashing.

It is reported that Emma took it and threw it in the fireplace. Dont you just love her?

free thinker

[helemon]

Oops. Helemon, I shouldn't have read D&C 132. Bad news for the broads, I thinketh.


Candy

After Joe dictated this to his scribe he was afraid to show it to his wife Emma. So his brother Hyrum took it to her. After she read it she gave him one hell of a tongue lashing.

It is reported that Emma took it and threw it in the fireplace. Dont you just love her?

free thinker

She clearly thought ol Joe's dications were directly from the mouth of God! hahahahaha. That threat of death really scared her!

Emma bitch slapping Joseph when he came home: :slap:

[candy15]

You know what your replies have just made me think? That we're all kind of disrespectful of others' viewpoints. I'm totally guilty here. And I think your comments are funny. Did laugh, ya know. But I don't ever expect respect from a Mormon if I can't give it them. Do you know what I mean? I know a lot of Mormans. Good people, albeit in my mind ill informed. But they ARE good people. I hate to feel that this forum or message board is for belittling them. Am I being obtuse? I'm sure you'll tell me. Bring it on. (in a fam. of Mormons but not one myself).

[helemon]

You know what your replies have just made me think? That we're all kind of disrespectful of others' viewpoints. I'm totally guilty here. And I think your comments are funny. Did laugh, ya know. But I don't ever expect respect from a Mormon if I can't give it them. Do you know what I mean? I know a lot of Mormans. Good people, albeit in my mind ill informed. But they ARE good people. I hate to feel that this forum or message board is for belittling them. Am I being obtuse? I'm sure you'll tell me. Bring it on. (in a fam. of Mormons but not one myself).

Yes I think Mormons could be offended by stuff on this board. Do I think Mormons are bad people? No. I do have an issue with the church leaders who misrepresent church history in order to mislead those good people. Also I know many Mormons who don't have any guilt laughing about things they find silly or stupid about other religions so I don't feel so bad laughing about things I find silly in the Mormon religion.

You have to realize that humor is about the only method some of us have to fight back against the multi-billion dollar corporation and marketing machine masquerading as a religion. Humor is also used to mask the anger and frustration we feel over the lies we were told. Plus, some of Mormon religion and history is just too damn funny. :D

[flotsam]

You know what your replies have just made me think? That we're all kind of disrespectful of others' viewpoints. I'm totally guilty here. And I think your comments are funny. Did laugh, ya know. But I don't ever expect respect from a Mormon if I can't give it them. Do you know what I mean? I know a lot of Mormans. Good people, albeit in my mind ill informed. But they ARE good people. I hate to feel that this forum or message board is for belittling them. Am I being obtuse? I'm sure you'll tell me. Bring it on. (in a fam. of Mormons but not one myself).


Bwah hah hah hah! In me power!

[cough cough... erm, ahem]

.. I mean, this is the linchpin to what I've been trying to figure out for the past four years or so. It seems to me that the person with power is the person who is so well centered in him or herself that he or she can find value everywhere.

I used to see life as a river and it was my job to make sure that I was going down the right current. Or maybe a maze: I had to choose the one right path. But lately I've been getting a different image in my mind, which is essentially encapsulated in a Waterboys song, "that was the river, this is the sea." Maybe I got to the sea via a particular river. Thank you river. But if I'm a part of the sea, that means I'm also a part of all the other rivers, and the ponds and underground aquifers, and the clouds and the rain. As I realize this, I start getting larger and larger, exploring the rivers and other bodies of water without deciding that one is the "true river" but enjoying its beauty and uniqueness nonetheless.

However, this is a difficult position to maintain, because the river sirens are alluring indeed. So often I want to say, "Finally, I've found the truth! I can stay here!" Sometimes I want to reject Mormonism all together, like so many people here have been able to do. I envy them. Other times, I just want the Mormons to be true. Just so I can rest.

I've heard that the way a woman is able to survive childbirth is by learning to "ride" the waves of contractions and pain. Once you stop fighting (and it takes real skill to learn to stop) the ride can be quite transcendent (though going on another ride soon is usually far from the woman's mind). I wonder if I should be taking a lesson from this. I wonder if I just fight too much, trying to make things work out right. My former mindset (and in many ways, my current mindset) tells me that I need to be constantly fighting to maintain my view of the truth. Maybe the universe is bigger than that. And maybe it's calling me to become just as big.

Note to self: the universe includes Mormonism.

[why me]

You know what your replies have just made me think? That we're all kind of disrespectful of others' viewpoints. I'm totally guilty here. And I think your comments are funny. Did laugh, ya know. But I don't ever expect respect from a Mormon if I can't give it them. Do you know what I mean? I know a lot of Mormans. Good people, albeit in my mind ill informed. But they ARE good people. I hate to feel that this forum or message board is for belittling them. Am I being obtuse? I'm sure you'll tell me. Bring it on. (in a fam. of Mormons but not one myself).
I understand perfectly what you said about not wanting to belittle mormons. I have had my scrapes here with regards to that understanding. But although I have had my scrapes no blood has been seeping out of my nose. In other words, they have just been matters of disagreement about what is belittling. I think that after my episode on the threads we have all been rather good to eachother...we are listening more and not taking personal other forum members comments. But yea, there will always be some belittling but I think that the intent will not always be meanspirited. We need more people like you to be a part of this forum...and so join in the discussion and make your comments if you think the tone is offensive. Or you just say your own opinion about what is being discussed. Look forward to your posts...

[hamar]

Helemon: "You have to realize that humor is about the only method some of us have to fight back against the multi-billion dollar corporation and marketing machine masquerading as a religion. Humor is also used to mask the anger and frustration we feel over the lies we were told. Plus, some of Mormon religion and history is just too damn funny."

This about says it all for me. After 29 years and three months, I have paid my dues (close to a quarter mil not coutning interest) and can make fun of the corporation if I choose, IMO. Picture yourself learning that your spouse has been unfailthful to you and has been lying to you for nearly 30 years! AND, even worse, they are unrepentent...even placing the blame on you! Would that piss you off a little bit?

I still have family and friends that are very much tangled in the tenacles of the corporation and I love them very much. I don't want to do anything to hurt them, but that doesn't change my anger toward the church and my right to rant, vent, share here among other like minded folks. I'm still removing the tenacles of the church from my psyche.

[helemon]

Picture yourself learning that your spouse has been unfailthful to you and has been lying to you for nearly 30 years! AND, even worse, they are unrepentent...even placing the blame on you! Would that piss you off a little bit?


That is EXACTLY how I felt about all of it! Utter betrayal of trust.

[helemon]

Note to self: the universe includes Mormonism.

I think Mormonism clearly has a strong hook that informs our understanding of the human condition. I think Mormonisms strongest hook is the eternal family concept. While it is true that other Christian religions will say that if everyone is saved you will all be together for eternity in heaven they do not teach that the marital relationship is intact, in fact they teach that it is severed at death. So the Mormons offer this very romantic notion of eternal love that is so appealing to many people that it allows them to overlook a lot of problems. I can't think of another doctrine of the church that has the same level of appeal. The BoM is not all that different from the Bible. The temple doesn't teach any profound earth shattering doctrines that are not contained in the bible. Even the concept of becoming a God, I don't think is all that appealing. It is the idea that our family unit will be preserved forever. Take that away and I think the number of members would really take a nose dive. It is interesting that this powerful teaching isn't found in the BoM which is supposed to contain a fullness of the gospel. It came fairly late in Joseph's life.

[hamar]

I think Mormonism clearly has a strong hook that informs our understanding of the human condition. I think Mormonisms strongest hook is the eternal family concept. While it is true that other Christian religions will say that if everyone is saved you will all be together for eternity in heaven they do not teach that the marital relationship is intact, in fact they teach that it is severed at death. So the Mormons offer this very romantic notion of eternal love that is so appealing to many people that it allows them to overlook a lot of problems. I can't think of another doctrine of the church that has the same level of appeal. The BoM is not all that different from the Bible. The temple doesn't teach any profound earth shattering doctrines that are not contained in the bible. Even the concept of becoming a God, I don't think is all that appealing. It is the idea that our family unit will be preserved forever. Take that away and I think the number of members would really take a nose dive. It is interesting that this powerful teaching isn't found in the BoM which is supposed to contain a fullness of the gospel. It came fairly late in Joseph's life.


Right on...Joe would have made a great salesman. The biggest issue between my children and wife and I has been the question about us giving up our eternal blessings and never seeing us again in the CK.

[why me]

I think Mormonism clearly has a strong hook that informs our understanding of the human condition. I think Mormonisms strongest hook is the eternal family concept. While it is true that other Christian religions will say that if everyone is saved you will all be together for eternity in heaven they do not teach that the marital relationship is intact, in fact they teach that it is severed at death. So the Mormons offer this very romantic notion of eternal love that is so appealing to many people that it allows them to overlook a lot of problems. I can't think of another doctrine of the church that has the same level of appeal. The BoM is not all that different from the Bible. The temple doesn't teach any profound earth shattering doctrines that are not contained in the bible. Even the concept of becoming a God, I don't think is all that appealing. It is the idea that our family unit will be preserved forever. Take that away and I think the number of members would really take a nose dive. It is interesting that this powerful teaching isn't found in the BoM which is supposed to contain a fullness of the gospel. It came fairly late in Joseph's life.
You may have a good point here. However we would then need to remember that if Joseph SImith is a huckster then this whole idea of eternal marriage was quite an invention on his part and shows how he personally viewed the family. Also the entire concept of heaven and the three degrees was a very human insight into who goes to heaven. In Joseph's view almost all would receive a glory and very few would end up in hell, unlike the teachings of other religions. This also shows a very human side to Joseph. Now if Joseph Smith was a prophet, it would then show a very kind side to god. Either way, it was quite inventive and human in spirit. Can we all agree on that? :)

[helemon]

You may have a good point here. However we would then need to remember that if Joseph SImith is a huckster then this whole idea of eternal marriage was quite an invention on his part and shows how he personally viewed the family. Also the entire concept of heaven and the three degrees was a very human insight into who goes to heaven. In Joseph's view almost all would receive a glory and very few would end up in hell, unlike the teachings of other religions. This also shows a very human side to Joseph. Now if Joseph Smith was a prophet, it would then show a very kind side to god. Either way, it was quite inventive and human in spirit. Can we all agree on that? :)

Nope, the three degree thing was first proposed by Emanuel Swedenborg:
http://www.exmormon.org/mormon/mormon034.htm

So it says nothing about JS as a prophet but speaks volumes about his continued penchant for claiming others ideas as his own.

[elder_nomo]

Helemon, I will agree that the concept of eternal marriage and eternal family can be very appealing. And it's true that other religions don't teach it as such.

But I see in Hamar's reply how it is actually used by LDS Inc. as a fear-based tool.
Hamar says his family worries about "never seeing us again in the CK".
I know, I know, that's maybe not technically doctrine, but that fear is commonplace and it's used and encouraged.

I mean, what other religion can you think of that instills that kind of fear? That you live the religion 24/7, follow all the rules, give up your time and your money, obey without question.... and still have to worry that you'll be separated from your loved ones??? sick, sick, sick.
I know lots of people with all kinds of faiths, and NOBODY else has that fear.

Why-Me, sorry, I can't even agree that much. I think JS invented "celestial marriage" as way to introduce and legitimize his obsession with polygamy.
As for the "family" aspect, I may be wrong on this [please correct me anyone], but it seems to me the original sealings [other than spouses] were to unrelated people - a way to link them up in a chain to JS, since he was the one way in [to heaven]. Had nothing to do with the Ozzie and Harriet mormon family staying together. At least not at first.

[helemon]

I mean, what other religion can you think of that instills that kind of fear? That you live the religion 24/7, follow all the rules, give up your time and your money, obey without question.... and still have to worry that you'll be separated from your loved ones??? sick, sick, sick.
I know lots of people with all kinds of faiths, and NOBODY else has that fear.


Ever heard of a place called hell? Fear of eternal pain, and suffering has long been a motivating force in religions. Even in Buddhism, except with Buddhism the eternal pain and suffering is called reincarnation.

[helemon]

it seems to me the original sealings [other than spouses] were to unrelated people - a way to link them up in a chain to JS, since he was the one way in [to heaven]. Had nothing to do with the Ozzie and Harriet mormon family staying together. At least not at first.

Yes the law of adoption evolved into the eternal marriage concept. The law of adoption was more like an eternal pyramid scheme. The more people you get sealed to you the more powerful you will be in the eternities. Not quite the romantic idea of eternal marital bliss people think of today.

[elder_nomo]

Ever heard of a place called hell? Fear of eternal pain, and suffering has long been a motivating force in religions. Even in Buddhism, except with Buddhism the eternal pain and suffering is called reincarnation.
Yes, they all use that one! :D
But I was referring to the specific threat of being cut off from your loved ones, in spite of jumping through all the required hoops. Even if your loved one is a good, decent, kind, loving person.

[helemon]

But I was referring to the specific threat of being cut off from your loved ones, in spite of jumping through all the required hoops. Even if your loved one is a good, decent, kind, loving person.

Probably because until fairly recent history wives were viewed as property rather than equals or soul mates. I wonder though if part of this could stem from the ancient supression of the Goddess sects. It is clear in the early religions the male and female gods were beleived to work in partnership with each other. It's unfortunate that concept was purged by the priests of Jehovah and later Catholic priests. But then the Catholics do have Mary to partially fill the void of the mother goddess.

[free thinker]

As for the "family" aspect, I may be wrong on this [please correct me anyone], but it seems to me the original sealings [other than spouses] were to unrelated people - a way to link them up in a chain to JS, since he was the one way in [to heaven]. Had nothing to do with the Ozzie and Harriet mormon family staying together. At least not at first.


In fact, if I have it correct, men where sealed to other men.

free thinker

[candy15]

Helemon: "You have to realize that humor is about the only method some of us have to fight back against the multi-billion dollar corporation and marketing machine masquerading as a religion. Humor is also used to mask the anger and frustration we feel over the lies we were told. Plus, some of Mormon religion and history is just too damn funny."


I still have family and friends that are very much tangled in the tenacles of the corporation and I love them very much. I don't want to do anything to hurt them, but that doesn't change my anger toward the church and my right to rant, vent, share here among other like minded folks. I'm still removing the tenacles of the church from my psyche.
This about says it all for me. After 29 years and three months, I have paid my dues (close to a quarter mil not coutning interest) and can make fun of the corporation if I choose, IMO. Picture yourself learning that your spouse has been unfailthful to you and has been lying to you for nearly 30 years! AND, even worse, they are unrepentent...even placing the blame on you! Would that piss you off a little bit?

hele, i'm sorry if i in any way appeared to be attacking what you've said. i can see your point totally. and don't forget, i said i was laughing with you. so in my comment i made, i think i was berating myself more than anything. i guess this stems from so many talks with mormons and feeling like i haven't been respected. i just wanted to give the respect to them, as i've wanted for myself. it IS hard, however. it's really hard to show respect all the time for something you don't believe, which is something i've had to do for years. i do want to. i want to respect all religions. but, yes, when the doctrine is being TOLD you time after time (with no desire on their part to hear you), it does make it hard to maintain that level of respect. i don't feel i've been given the same in return.

i do respect what all of you have to say in this forum. i've been really lucky to find you here. forgive me, please.

[candy15]

hele, i see i posted on your post! not sure how I did that and can't seem to fix it, but i hope you read my reply. i'll figure out how to do this yet!!!

the people on this forum are so incredibly well informed. i can't get over the amount of knowledge of the church, stats, facts, history, etc. that you all come up with. i only wish i had all of that at my disposal when dealing with my mo family. thanks for the help you've given me.

[free thinker]

yes, when the doctrine is being TOLD you time after time (with no desire on their part to hear you), it does make it hard to maintain that level of respect. i don't feel i've been given the same in return.


They just dont see it. They have theological blinders on.

free thinker

[candy15]

yes, when the doctrine is being TOLD you time after time (with no desire on their part to hear you), it does make it hard to maintain that level of respect. i don't feel i've been given the same in return.


They just dont see it. They have theological blinders on.

free thinker


I do believe you're right.