The continual battle to take your power back from Mormonism's grasp.

[helemon]

From Susie Q #1 on RfM

OR: why there is this Recovery Board and why I call it The Exit Process from Mormonism:

In the past few years, I have given a lot of thought to how Mormonism gains it's power, and gets people to do things and wear special clothes and generally takes over one's life, even getting people to die for their religion.

I have made a few observations and conclusions that have been ruminating in my mind, even pondering! :-) This is mostly about the misuse of guilt, and it's power and how it sustains Mormonism. Here goes!

Mormonism, and religion in general, are corporations of one sort or another that has to maintain a solid financial base and a highly controlled authoritative superstructure. They count on members complying with emotional attachments to their demands.

This is not about facts, it never was. It is totally and completely about an emotional bond to a belief by faith.

In regard to human relations: religion in general, and Mormonism specifically teaches that you are to be more concerned about how someone else feels that you are about what they did to you.

As a believer, you are the one to feel guilty and apologize and say you are sorry, if you are hurt by someone else. I see this behavior within the religious community much more so than anywhere else.

Mormonism specifically, and Christianity in general (my upbringing) taught me that I was expected to be feel guilt -- a lot! I never could figure out why I was expected to feel guilty for what someone else did to me.

In the Mormon Church, being intensely involved, committed and active, I noticed that anyone could "take offense" at something totally out of the blue, and it was my fault, I was to apologize, and feel sorry and guilty and repent.

That was bizarre nonsense that never made sense to me, especially invasive interviews by bishops and others in leadership who made it clear it was their job as a male to set any female straight that did not get in line and keep their face turned toward their inspiration. ARG! More guilt!

It seemed to me that no one took responsibly for "taking offense," it was all about making themselves feel better for getting someone else to feel bad.

As a believer, you are expected to give an explanation of all of your actions, feelings, etc. This gets to be a habit with Mormons and when someone does not give an explanation, it is seen as some kind of sin of omission.

If your explanation does not satisfy some intrusive invasive interview -- more guilt! Can you say: "Cognitive Dissonance," boys and girls?

It is obvious that using guilt is a manipulation technique to get people to do as they are told in the Mormon Church works well. Do as they are told is the core of their power. You don't want to disappoint Heavenly Father, then you would feel guilty, and around and around it goes.

When I realized that Mormonism is a bunch of huge corporations that only has one bottom line -- money, it all started to make sense.

To be a believer in Mormonism, you must commit to all kinds of commandments, requirements, expectations, time commitments, in addition to all kinds of restraints to prove your allegiance and devotion and love for Heavenly Father. And of course, there is no way to meet all of these demands, so you are to feel guilt and repent, and keep on the merry-go-round!

Once I realized that "Heavenly Father" in Mormonism meant: keep the money coming in through guilt, I refused to allow them into my pocketbook again! Of course, all that lying from the get-go and selling the hoax of "Golden Plates" and the Book of Mormon fiction played heavily into closing off the money flow!

It took several years for me to really understand the scope of the all-inclusive realm of the corporate power of Mormonism and all the subtle ways they use guilt.

The promise of "Families are Forever and Eternal Life," with it's overt and covert misuse of the temple rituals, to extract money from it's members is an ingenious use of religious attachments and bonds to guarantee that the members keep the money coming in.

Religion as a corporation holds huge emotional power over people. You could take most of the so-called commandments out of Mormonism, except an emotional commitment to tithing and contributions, and it would not be able to survive, at least not for long.

It might survive as a corporation owing property, but not as an international religion. I have yet to find a religion that does not operate this way to some degree. No money -- no churches, No churches, no power over people.

In order for Mormonism, or any other church organization to stay in power is to use it's money as a base to own things -- including the members. The best ones demand a total commitment, such as Mormonism does in the temple, then it provides just enough incentives to make the commitment worth while.

As a member of the Mormon Church you work for them full time (note temple covenants to give all that you have or will have, etc.) and you pay them for the privilege. That is ingenious!

And, for this membership in the Mormon Church, you get to follow their polices for behavior and be restricted to what you drink and wear and do. And do it happily and with joy!

The benefits of being a member of "the only true church" are "eternal life," some special elitist underwear (sacred skivvies), the use of a few buildings; temples being a little fancier than the run of the mill institutional styled Ward and Stake houses.

There are other "perks" of course; some of which are reduced rates on education (if you comply with their restrictions) and housing, cars, etc., for some of the leaders, and shopping at the Lord own department stores and malls -- such as Cottonwood Mall in SLC. I am sure there are more, that others here can think of!:-)

I would say, that for me, (and probably most people) breaking the code to the emotional attachment and bond to Mormonism's grasp is the key to removing it's power through the misuse of guilt.

That code is so subtly and overtly implanted that it is more difficult to break for some than for others.

It is, from my observation, that power struggle, that causes the most frustration and anger in that code-breaking process. Taking our power back from the church is a huge battle.

And, extracting ourselves from the subtle tentacles of Mormonism's clutches mentally, socially, physically, psychologically, spiritually is a very long process for many of us.

It is difficult to break the habit of feeling guilty, giving explanations to anyone who asks, saying you are sorry, among a lot of other behaviors and twisted thought patterns.

For me, I have found that reducing the negative impact of any part of Mormonism with lots of humor has worked extremely well in taking my power back and owning it completely.

And to do that, I keep myself removed from it's physical presence as much as possible, (do not attend any Mormon function, etc.) and reduce it's power mentally, by not giving it any credibility.

It simple is not worthy (don't you love the way the Mormons use that word?) of my belief.

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice sham on me!

This is my road trip. Your mileage may vary!

In the theme of this thread, how do you take your power back and what does it mean to you?

[cactus jack]

I have a lot of difficulty with it. I was in for 23+ years and felt great when I finally got out. sadly, I feel a tugging at my heart, to bring me backin. As much as I hate and despise the LDS, something inside of me is saying "come back brother, come back to the fold".

I just don't understand this.

[Born Free]

I have a lot of difficulty with it. I was in for 23+ years and felt great when I finally got out. sadly, I feel a tugging at my heart, to bring me backin. As much as I hate and despise the LDS, something inside of me is saying "come back brother, come back to the fold".

I just don't understand this.
A psychotherapist friend pointed out to me that it was Freud who observed that when devoutly religious people were deprived of their ability to attend church regularly, they manifested all the symptoms of obsessive compulsive disorder.

If most religions do not start with slightly mentally vulnerable people, they sure as hell do a great job of creating them.

IMO, it is dangerous to assume that time alone will help recover from a fundamentalist religion. It frequently takes good support from a mental health professional to address what in fact are frequently complex mental problems.

Read (and respond if you like) to the Stages of Post Mormonism threads, and see how many people feel they got invaluable assistance from good mental health expertise.

Daryl

[why me]

I have a lot of difficulty with it. I was in for 23+ years and felt great when I finally got out. sadly, I feel a tugging at my heart, to bring me backin. As much as I hate and despise the LDS, something inside of me is saying "come back brother, come back to the fold".

I just don't understand this.
I can understand you very well. There is something there that keeps me from totally leaving. But I cannot say that it is some diabolical cult which has me in its grasp. Rather, there is something good there...something special....something nice...but I just can't seem to live those darn commandments. I am sure that I would feel the same way if I were a wayward catholic watching the new pope in Germany and all those faithful followers coming to see him. I don't hate or dispise the LDS...what would that mean anyway? To hate and to dispise are two emotions that do not bring peace and harmony to one's life. I have felt the tug to come back too. It was in January of this year but then I found these sites on the web and here I am...back on the outside looking in...such is life....but perhaps this is who I really am...I just need to understand myself better. Have fun...

[why me]

From Susie Q #1 on RfM
What power am I suppose to take back and for what purpose am I taking it back? Am I suppose to say to myself...why me do what you think is right and live by your own consciousness without the feeling of guilt? I think that the power of religion in general is to guide its believers in righteous living and if a person goes outside that boundary...guilt develops in the mind. Is this mind control...if so...most of humanity is mind-controlled. To be free of religion could leave us finally to be truly free to be human without the influence of the supernatural....but what kind of human would we be without religion? Where is our ethical and moral compass to be found? As far as money is concerned...the piece gives a weak argument. All religions need money to survive...if someone has a tithing issue they would need to blame the bible prophets who cautioned those to pay God a tithe of thankfulness...it is not a mormon thing...it is bible thing...

[miss taken]

I really, really like what Suzie Q says here. I think she is spot on with what any form of authoritarian religion where obedience is the name of the game and real questioning stops can do to the human psyche. It makes us nothing more than robots, or one of Pavlov's dogs....

She's spot on in my opinion, I felt like her, in many ways.

Mary

[hamar]

A psychotherapist friend pointed out to me that it was Freud who observed that when devoutly religious people were deprived of their ability to attend church regularly, they manifested all the symptoms of obsessive compulsive disorder.

If most religions do not start with slightly mentally vulnerable people, they sure as hell do a great job of creating them.

IMO, it is dangerous to assume that time alone will help recover from a fundamentalist religion. It frequently takes good support from a mental health professional to address what in fact are frequently complex mental problems.

Read (and respond if you like) to the Stages of Post Mormonism threads, and see how many people feel they got invaluable assistance from good mental health expertise.

Daryl

Daryl,

Thanks for your comments. I was wondering if there is any value in reading and responding to others similar experiences with the morg. Is/could this be a form of therapy and healing from the anger and hurt that some of us feel? It seems to be helping me to read some of the posts here and at another site.


At this point, I can't imagine feeling that tug Cactus Jack mentions; however, I am very new to the process. I don't intend to throw out the baby with the bath water, but don't intend to attach myself to another organized religion any time soon either.

I'll read the thread you mentioned, thanks.

Harry

[silverfox]

but what kind of human would we be without religion? Where is our ethical and moral compass to be found? As far as money is concerned...the piece gives a weak argument. All religions need money to survive...if someone has a tithing issue they would need to blame the bible prophets who cautioned those to pay God a tithe of thankfulness...it is not a mormon thing...it is bible thing...

I've known life long athiests raised without any religion in their upbringing who are the most honest loving people I've ever known. I don't think religion necessarily = a moral compass.

Religions need money to survive but do they need multi million dollar temples? Real estate? Serioulsy? I can see where the money could be put to much better humane use. In a more Christian way....a way that I believe that if there is a God he would like to see it used. I can't believe for a minute that he cares how pretty the temples are. I would love to see LDS corp dole out more money to help those in need. One doesnt' have to be Christian or have religion to have compassion or be humane.

[peter_mary]

I don't think religion necessarily = a moral compass.



To the contrary, it is in fact RELIGION that is saying you must have it in order to be moral. Funny thing is, there are a lot of folks who find morality without religion. What I wonder, and of course it could only ever be speculation, but I wonder if religion itself isn't the root of our moral problems, and that if we LACKED religion, would we actually be more moral?

The reason I wonder that is that it might be possible to base morality on more objective, rational sets of observable principles, rather than faith-based unseen-but-hoped-for principles. For instance, the first principle of the gospel is...what...help me out classs...

Obedience.

Obedience to what?

Obedience to God and His laws.

Who's God?

MY God...

And therein lies the difficulty. Because we can't seem to agree on the nature of God, because we can't see him, touch him, experience him in any tangible way. Subsequently, it gives us all the freedom in the world to discriminate, mistreat and hate others because they are too stupid, too savage, too blind to "get it." We end up with little clots of people who have agreed to think about God in their preferred manner, but frankly, we've never even managed to agree as a species on the most basic tenet of religion...namely just who the hell God actually is.

But if we agreed, as a species, to stick to the things we CAN touch and feel and smell and hear, then maybe we could get along better. For instance, I can't help but believe that in the absence of a belief in God (MY God, not yours, for hell's sake!) we would be able to agree that flying airplanes into buildings, and blasting peasants with billion dollar missiles is immoral.

But throw God in the mix, and suddenly you can create a moral rationale.

For me, I believe we could possibly be better off as a species without religion, contrary to what religion would have us believe. Can't we see the conflict of interest here? Of COURSE religion wants us to believe that it is indespensible. As soon as we realize that it can be dispensed with, it loses its power, its money, its influence and utlimately itself.

Peter_Mary

[Born Free]

What power am I suppose to take back and for what purpose am I taking it back? Am I suppose to say to myself...why me do what you think is right and live by your own consciousness without the feeling of guilt? I think that the power of religion in general is to guide its believers in righteous living and if a person goes outside that boundary...guilt develops in the mind. Is this mind control...if so...most of humanity is mind-controlled. To be free of religion could leave us finally to be truly free to be human without the influence of the supernatural....but what kind of human would we be without religion? Where is our ethical and moral compass to be found? As far as money is concerned...the piece gives a weak argument. All religions need money to survive...if someone has a tithing issue they would need to blame the bible prophets who cautioned those to pay God a tithe of thankfulness...it is not a mormon thing...it is bible thing...

Why Me,

If I don't take responsibility for the values, beliefs and ethics that I live my life out of, who do I give that too.

Some religious folks would argue that ideally I give that to God, that I follow God's plan for my life.

In reality there are hundreds of people in various religions who are absolutely confident they know what God plans for my life, and surprise, surprise, very few of them agree with one another.

So my take on that is that either God says different things to his different representatives, they don't listen real well, OR most people who claim to know what God wants for others are really overstepping the mark.

The history of "God telling people how to live their lives" usuallly reads more like man/men telling others how to live. Sometimes they force that on others, as in older times, but in many cases people happily give their power away: they are content to be weak followers to 'strong' leaders because that is a familar game and one they have all been trained for, and one that avoids personal responsibility.

So where does guilt fit in there?

I believe I can feel guilt and even shame for violating MY OWN deeply held standards and values. I believe that is useful, and only a fool would persist in ignoring their own value system.

There is also guilt that is used by people and societies to control people, and coerce their behaviour in ways that suit the powerful, regardless of how it serves the individual. For me, that is a system that any healthy individual woudl try to escape, avoid or get beyond ASAP.

I figure freedom from religion is only superfically about the 'supernatural' which is usually only a smokescreen to keep people fearful and controllable for the power elite. My concern with religion is less about the fear of 'God', than about the fear-inducement of human control-freaks.

Why Me, do you believe that religion holds any moral and ethical compasses that are not available from numerous other sources? Sure, in a rampantly consumerist society, we may have to search, as those things are usually non-profit, so it is in no ones financial interest to chase after us to 'sell' that to us. (By contrast, there is a sell in most religion as some stand to gain power and influence and even money). Most the post-religious belief systems I find attractive involve high and ever-evolving levels of self-responsibility,so it is not a place for those who want power over others (that that does not stop some trying).

Are you saying that without religion, society would go to hell in a bobsled? I got to the end of your remarks, and said 'What? What is Why Me saying? Where does he stand?' I have this confusing sense of not feeling confident I have any solid sense of your belief system. I think that is why I struggle with your comms, and I want to make that work better if possible.

What is the attraction you feel towards Mormonism?

What is the dis-attraction (or repulsion) you feel?

How do you process and try to make sense of the mix?

Do you see that as a black or white deal, or do you have some other frame-up of it?

Once again, we have a situation where someone has expressed an opinion of how they feel re Mormonism, about their experience, about their emotional response to their experience. You then come in with something I think sounds like 'Oh, it wasn't really that bad! You really should not feel like that, or 'It really is a nice, healthy organisation, You are being overly tough on it!'.

Please explain where you see yourself sitting in the Mo - Post-Mo space, because I am really struggling, and suspect I am not alone.

Daryl

[Jeff_Ricks]

For me, I believe we could possibly be better off as a species without religion, contrary to what religion would have us believe. Can't we see the conflict of interest here? Of COURSE religion wants us to believe that it is indespensible. As soon as we realize that it can be dispensed with, it loses its power, its money, its influence and utlimately itself.

Peter_Mary
I agree 100% with P_M on this. In my opinion, religion isn't the answer to our moral problems, I think religion is the primary cause of them. History attests to that. Is it moral for people to look down their noses at others because the others believe differently? Is war moral? Is shunning family moral? Is neglecting the environment moral? Is calling for the the murder of others moral?

The religious seem to think that morality equals believing as they do, and considering those who don't their enemy. Is doing that moral?

To me religion is like the snake oil salesman of the past or like the slick salesman going around the Northcountry selling refrigerators to eskimos. They don't need one, and the world doesn't need religion -- both will get along just fine without it, AND they can save their money for things the DO need.

But it's hard to convince an eskimo who's bought into the salesman's BS that he will do just fine without a refrigerator. Why me, watch any religious program you like on TV, including General Conference. Notice how much time they spend amplifying the evils of the world. "Oh yes," they say, "you got trouble right here in Rivercity..." Then they tell you, "Ah, but this is your lucky day! And it will only cost you..."

"Oh, yes," my friends, "we've got trouble right here in Rivercity. It's the damn salesman!" ;)

Jeff

[hamar]

Why Me,

If I don't take responsibility for the values, beliefs and ethics that I live my life out of, who do I give that too.

Some religious folks would argue that ideally I give that to God, that I follow God's plan for my life.

In reality there are hundreds of people in various religions who are absolutely confident they know what God plans for my life, and surprise, surprise, very few of them agree with one another.

So my take on that is that either God says different things to his different representatives, they don't listen real well, OR most people who claim to know what God wants for others are really overstepping the mark.

The history of "God telling people how to live their lives" usuallly reads more like man/men telling others how to live. Sometimes they force that on others, as in older times, but in many cases people happily give their power away: they are content to be weak followers to 'strong' leaders because that is a familar game and one they have all been trained for, and one that avoids personal responsibility.

So where does guilt fit in there?

I believe I can feel guilt and even shame for violating MY OWN deeply held standards and values. I believe that is useful, and only a fool would persist in ignoring their own value system.

There is also guilt that is used by people and societies to control people, and coerce their behaviour in ways that suit the powerful, regardless of how it serves the individual. For me, that is a system that any healthy individual woudl try to escape, avoid or get beyond ASAP.

I figure freedom from religion is only superfically about the 'supernatural' which is usually only a smokescreen to keep people fearful and controllable for the power elite. My concern with religion is less about the fear of 'God', than about the fear-inducement of human control-freaks.

Why Me, do you believe that religion holds any moral and ethical compasses that are not available from numerous other sources? Sure, in a rampantly consumerist society, we may have to search, as those things are usually non-profit, so it is in no ones financial interest to chase after us to 'sell' that to us. (By contrast, there is a sell in most religion as some stand to gain power and influence and even money). Most the post-religious belief systems I find attractive involve high and ever-evolving levels of self-responsibility,so it is not a place for those who want power over others (that that does not stop some trying).

Are you saying that without religion, society would go to hell in a bobsled? I got to the end of your remarks, and said 'What? What is Why Me saying? Where does he stand?' I have this confusing sense of not feeling confident I have any solid sense of your belief system. I think that is why I struggle with your comms, and I want to make that work better if possible.

What is the attraction you feel towards Mormonism?

What is the dis-attraction (or repulsion) you feel?

How do you process and try to make sense of the mix?

Do you see that as a black or white deal, or do you have some other frame-up of it?

Once again, we have a situation where someone has expressed an opinion of how they feel re Mormonism, about their experience, about their emotional response to their experience. You then come in with something I think sounds like 'Oh, it wasn't really that bad! You really should not feel like that, or 'It really is a nice, healthy organisation, You are being overly tough on it!'.

Please explain where you see yourself sitting in the Mo - Post-Mo space, because I am really struggling, and suspect I am not alone.

Daryl


Very well said. While I try to accept the right of anyone to say what ever they feel moved to say here, I am repulsed somewhat by those that come off as apologists. Why Me, sounds like and apologist to me. I don't get the feeling that he is in any way post mo, just here to continuallyy defend the morg. That's OK by me, I respect his right to speak what he believes, but I will agressively disagree, when I choose to engage him.

[david]

Why Me,
Please explain where you see yourself sitting in the Mo - Post-Mo space, because I am really struggling, and suspect I am not alone.

Daryl

I have often got the feeling that Why Me is a troll. While I understand that it is probably more complicated than that, it can be very frustrating. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, Why Me, but can you help us understand why you are here?

[miss taken]

Just edited because I just read all the additional comments that I hadn't caught up on yesterday..Hi Jeff, hope all is well with you. Why me I would love you to answer Daryls questions, not because of bating, but because I am genuinely interested in your stance...
I still think my response is a good one though, and covers the issues somewhat...
Mary



Hey David, long time no write, and where are Jeff, Ed and Dogzilla, and other regulars!!!!

I watched 'The Village' last night. I didn't get a chance to see it when it was at the movies, and as soon as I found it in WalMart I grabbed it...

I bring this up, because I think in some way it explains my thoughts on the LDS church particularly psychologically.

Without wishing to sound too obtuse..I found the film to be particularly compelling.

I think it parodies my LDS experience in many ways.
The group is a happy one, innocent almost, it seemed a wonderful idealic life. I think for many it probably was.

The Elders of the Village were disillussioned with the 'evils' of the world. They created a unit closed off physically from the rest of the world. They taught their children to not go into the woods by fear. Their actions were altruistic. They were good people.

For me the church gradually had such a psychological impact on me that I found that I feared questioning, I feared leaving.

I believe that the whole purpose of the temple for the Elders of the church (male and female) is to put a rubber stamp on that loyalty. Parts of the temple ceremony for me (80's) were designed to induce fear of punishment in me. Satan's words in the temple only served to do the same. It also encouraged me to believe, along with scripture and talks that I was a part of the elect, a different group to the rest of the world, endowed with special knowledge and power, somehow I was separate from the rest of the world, it encouraged me to see myself as totally separate and incompatable with the minds of any who felt differently from me.

Now, I am not saying that is a bad thing for others, but for me it only increased the feeling that there should be no turning back, and that if I did the punishment for me would be the death not only of my physical body but also of my spirit.

Various talks were given by GA's to the same effect. The supposed words of Jesus were also often quoted.
Somewhere along the lines of ...once you have turned your hand to the plough, there is no dropping it. Lot's wife was also quoted. She looked back. There should be no looking back...

The paradox for me is I still like a lot of the church, I still like a lot of the people, darn it most of them are pretty nice, and just trying to live a good life like the rest of us...

I don't see Why me as a troll. He is upfront about who he is, but he hasn't closed the door.

To be honest, I havn't closed the door either, but I don't see that I could ever get myself into a psychological position where I lived by fear again. Fear to question, fear to choose. So I steer clear.

I liked what Bill Clinton once said about fear. That it was an emotion that lead to hate. Maybe the whole thing is to try and stop fearing it...

In the village, the life they lived was essentially good. The ideal was good.

I think that is the paradox and irony, that for many, the LDS church provides a good moral founding, and a culture in which the roll models (which is probably why the history is not spoken about in depth) are good ones.
As they are portrayed anyways.

In my mangle fangled way I hope that answers the question of why I think Why me is not a troll. He just tries (and I know I am speaking for him and I shouldn't) to see both sides of the story.

My belief is that JS was just a man, an imperfect man, making it up as he went along with a bit of help from others. But that doesn't mean that I am right. Truth exists as truth, and a lie is a lie (albeit a noble one- that's for flotsam who has made me think an awful lot about the concept) whether I believe it or not.

Mary

[why me]

No I am not a troll...far from it. But maybe to be a troll would not be such a bad thing...to placed in someone's garden and just stand there among the flowers would be wonderful. I wouldn't have to eat or drink and work would be very simple: just to decorate a patch of ground. Not so bad really. I think that what needs to be understood is that this forum has become so negative lately...gosh...it is almost impossible to have a postlife discussion here or for that matter treat something objectively. I have two daugthers in mormonism and they are great kids. What am I to do? Shoot myself? (only kidding).
I do not live with my children but rather I live alone. It bothers me to read only negative things about mormonism. I take it has a personal attack on my own daughters in many ways. Now if I didn't have two daughters in mormonism, I wouldn't care what was written here in the negative. Really, that is a fact. And doesn't the home page say something about keeping the good in moism? I haven't checked it in a while....
I suppose I would like to see more postmo life posts..like the posts at the postmo vs. real life thread. This would be so much more beneficial in my opionion. Of course, negatives are okay but must they dominate the forums? Like many have said...it plays such a small part of life on the outside...why not use the large part of life for this forum? I would like to learn from all of you but I cannot learn from the constant barage of negatives...this has no lesson for me and I will stick my neck out and say for many who may want to post on this forum. This is my issue, I suppose. Am I in moism? No, I cannot say that I am. For years I attended sacrement for my children and then spent the other two meetings walking the the town. Now I do attend more meetings sometimes...but this is to talk and to listen and to meet people. But people need to remember that not everyone wants to down the church at every opportuntiy, for some, we just want to find a life of compassion and goodness and to read wonderful things of new beginnings and great thoughts. But my daughters are in mormonism and I am proud of their lives and accomplishments as young females and human beings. But it is their religion and must a divorced father need to listen to negativity and ravings on a almost constant basis without neutral life affiming posts? Think about it a little....I am jsut a divorced father of two mormon girls and I am rather defensive at the moment. But I have also learned alot on this forum and I have said so often. I know that there has been some life affirming posts...but sometimes it would be great to read about the'majority' of life that has been posted in the postmo vs, real life thread..... :) Take care out there...oh miss taken, do you need a troll for your garden?...I would love to stand among the flowers and become a small statue with a smile on my face....

[Born Free]

No I am not a troll...far from it. But maybe to be a troll would not be such a bad thing...to placed in someone's garden and just stand there among the flowers would be wonderful. I wouldn't have to eat or drink and work would be very simple: just to decorate a patch of ground. Not so bad really.

<snip>

Take care out there...oh miss taken, do you need a troll for your garden?...I would love to stand among the flowers and become a small statue with a smile on my face....
Why Me,

It is gnombes that stand in gardens looking all fat, and happy (and occasionally get gnomenapped and go globe trotting, sending home pickies of their travels).

As I recall trolls hide under bridges waiting to eat passers-by.

So are you a gnome that things he is a troll, or a troll that thinks he is a gnome, or have you now way of gnoming?

Daryl

PS: The downside of being a gnome, that you may have overlooked, is that dogs like to piss on them!

[miss taken]

Why Me,

It is gnombes that stand in gardens looking all fat, and happy (and occasionally get gnomenapped and go globe trotting, sending home pickies of their travels).

As I recall trolls hide under bridges waiting to eat passers-by.

So are you a gnome that things he is a troll, or a troll that thinks he is a gnome, or have you now way of gnoming?

Daryl

PS: The downside of being a gnome, that you may have overlooked, is that dogs like to piss on them!


Now, you two, don't you go start pecking at each other again. Otherwise I am gonna have to call Silverfox in, to give you both a slappin'!!!!!!

[why me]

Why Me,

It is gnombes that stand in gardens looking all fat, and happy (and occasionally get gnomenapped and go globe trotting, sending home pickies of their travels).

As I recall trolls hide under bridges waiting to eat passers-by.

So are you a gnome that things he is a troll, or a troll that thinks he is a gnome, or have you now way of gnoming?

Daryl

PS: The downside of being a gnome, that you may have overlooked, is that dogs like to piss on them!
I noticed my mistake when I left the store where the computer is located but decided to leave the troll stand. I am sure that a troll can be placed in a garden too. Maybe dogzilla can clarify this for us. Miss Taken, I think that daryl was actually writing to me in a good mood! Or was he? But daryl even if I am a gnome or a troll getting pissed on at least I am making some dog happy.... :) But still...it would be wonderful to stand 'plastered' in a garden with no blood or feelings...just my entity and a beautiful women tending the garden around me...with my plaster hand sticking out and occasionally getting a feeling of skin and cloth as she passes near me....and the smell of her perfume entwined with a garden smell...wouldn't be so bad...I thnk.

[hamar]

I noticed my mistake when I left the store where the computer is located but decided to leave the troll stand. I am sure that a troll can be placed in a garden too. Maybe dogzilla can clarify this for us. Miss Taken, I think that daryl was actually writing to me in a good mood! Or was he? But daryl even if I am a gnome or a troll getting pissed on at least I am making some dog happy.... :) But still...it would be wonderful to stand 'plastered' in a garden with no blood or feelings...just my entity and a beautiful women tending the garden around me...with my plaster hand sticking out and occasionally getting a feeling of skin and cloth as she passes near me....and the smell of her perfume entwined with a garden smell...wouldn't be so bad...I thnk.

That post makes a lot of sense. Very profound.

[Jeff_Ricks]

Just edited because I just read all the additional comments that I hadn't caught up on yesterday..Hi Jeff, hope all is well with you. Why me I would love you to answer Daryls questions, not because of bating, but because I am genuinely interested in your stance...
I still think my response is a good one though, and covers the issues somewhat...
Mary

Hey David, long time no write, and where are Jeff, Ed and Dogzilla, and other regulars!!!!

Hi Mary et al!

Thanks for asking about me. I'm up to the tops of my ears right now with things on my plate and am targeting for mid October when I'll have most of it behind me and things will start happening here again. Finding out I had cancer really threw a wrench in my plans for the summer. My surgery is sheduled for September 12th and I've feeling VERY good about the surgeon I've selected. I'm confident things will go well and not as worried as I was prior to finding him. He practices in Salt Lake City and his name is Michael Mangelson. I highly recommend him to anyone who has prostate cancer (of course that leaves out all you women) and is facing surgery. The guy knows what he's doing and has a track record to prove it. After the surgery I'll be recovering for about a month, but I'm planning to be back at work after three weeks.

So, bear with me through our little lull, but we'll get things rolling again asap -- billboards, documentaries, and a facelift to the website. PostMormon.org is just getting started!

Jeff

[Jeff_Ricks]

And doesn't the home page say something about keeping the good in moism? I haven't checked it in a while....

Why me, I believe you and I have been through this before. Please wander over the home page again and notice that it says,

we want to keep all the good that came into our lives through Mormonism, but will be open about its misrepresentations and the way in which its dogmatism and authoritarianism have proven detrimental to many individuals, families and communities. We regret the fact that our openness in this regard hurts some people, but feel that important information has been suppressed for so long within the Mormon community that we should let the chips fall where they may.

Jeff

[peter_mary]

No I am not a troll...far from it.

I have two daugthers in mormonism and they are great kids. What am I to do? Shoot myself? (only kidding).
I do not live with my children but rather I live alone. It bothers me to read only negative things about mormonism. I take it has a personal attack on my own daughters in many ways.

For what it's worth, I've never wondered if why_me was a troll...a bit of a contrarian at times, but there's room in my world for contrarians.

But why_me, this post, wherein you explore some of the pain you experience trying to balance the Church you've personally abandoned, without simultaneously rejecting the daughters you love, was particularly touching. I think this is a powerful issue for lots of PostMos, and one worth exploring more.

I know of folks who have had to cease participating on this forum because their spouse couldn't bear the thought of them engaging in anti-Mormon activities. I know of many parents who have adult children who are fasting, praying, and placing their parent's names on the prayer roles the temple in an effort to encourage God to intervene and bring them back in the fold. For some of us, leaving the Church has been a family affair. For others, it has been devastating to their families, with all the attendand hurts and grieving.

The truth is, leaving Mormonism can be catastrophic to some relationships, and as I read Why_me, I suppose that often what I'm reading is one man's attempt to walk that fine line, and hold on to what he loves (his children) while finding a new course to explore (his philosophy). That's not always easy, and everyone's personal experience is gonna be unique.

Thanks for this post, Why_me...it was helpful for me.

Peter_Mary

[miss taken]

For what it's worth, I've never wondered if why_me was a troll...a bit of a contrarian at times, but there's room in my world for contrarians.

But why_me, this post, wherein you explore some of the pain you experience trying to balance the Church you've personally abandoned, without simultaneously rejecting the daughters you love, was particularly touching. I think this is a powerful issue for lots of PostMos, and one worth exploring more.

I know of folks who have had to cease participating on this forum because their spouse couldn't bear the thought of them engaging in anti-Mormon activities. I know of many parents who have adult children who are fasting, praying, and placing their parent's names on the prayer roles the temple in an effort to encourage God to intervene and bring them back in the fold. For some of us, leaving the Church has been a family affair. For others, it has been devastating to their families, with all the attendand hurts and grieving.

The truth is, leaving Mormonism can be catastrophic to some relationships, and as I read Why_me, I suppose that often what I'm reading is one man's attempt to walk that fine line, and hold on to what he loves (his children) while finding a new course to explore (his philosophy). That's not always easy, and everyone's personal experience is gonna be unique.

Thanks for this post, Why_me...it was helpful for me.

Peter_Mary

I'll second that one Why me. I think I got to know you just a bit better from that post. Thanks for being so frank.

Jeff, glad to hear things are up and running for you. Hope all goes well with the surgery, glad you found a good surgeon.
Mary

[Born Free]

Now, you two, don't you go start pecking at each other again. Otherwise I am gonna have to call Silverfox in, to give you both a slappin'!!!!!!
Nah, I was being' a good boy!

I crack up every time I think of gnome-napping. The whole idea of someone wanting to kidnap them and 'free-them' greatly engages my sick sense of humour.

I am conscious of the dog threat, because our 'million dollar dog' (has cost me $400 in the last week alone in vet fees), pees on anything in the garden he can cock his leg on; kills the plants and the only reason the Balinese statue misses out is that it is up high, where he can't reach.

It did cause me some stretch to nursery rhyme days. Weren't they trolls under the bridge in Billy Goat Gruff?

Daryl

[miss taken]

Nah, I was being' a good boy!

I crack up every time I think of gnome-napping. The whole idea of someone wanting to kidnap them and 'free-them' greatly engages my sick sense of humour.

I am conscious of the dog threat, because our 'million dollar dog' (has cost me $400 in the last week alone in vet fees), pees on anything in the garden he can cock his leg on; kills the plants and the only reason the Balinese statue misses out is that it is up high, where he can't reach.

It did cause me some stretch to nursery rhyme days. Weren't they trolls under the bridge in Billy Goat Gruff?

Daryl

:D :D :D

[Born Free]

<snip>

I think that what needs to be understood is that this forum has become so negative lately...gosh...it is almost impossible to have a postlife discussion here or for that matter treat something objectively. I have two daugthers in mormonism and they are great kids. What am I to do? Shoot myself? (only kidding).

I do not live with my children but rather I live alone. It bothers me to read only negative things about mormonism. I take it has a personal attack on my own daughters in many ways. Now if I didn't have two daughters in mormonism, I wouldn't care what was written here in the negative. Really, that is a fact.

<snip>

I suppose I would like to see more postmo life posts..like the posts at the postmo vs. real life thread. This would be so much more beneficial in my opionion. Of course, negatives are okay but must they dominate the forums? Like many have said...it plays such a small part of life on the outside...why not use the large part of life for this forum? I would like to learn from all of you but I cannot learn from the constant barage of negatives...this has no lesson for me and I will stick my neck out and say for many who may want to post on this forum. This is my issue, I suppose.

Am I in moism? No, I cannot say that I am. For years I attended sacrement for my children and then spent the other two meetings walking the the town. Now I do attend more meetings sometimes...but this is to talk and to listen and to meet people. But people need to remember that not everyone wants to down the church at every opportuntiy, for some, we just want to find a life of compassion and goodness and to read wonderful things of new beginnings and great thoughts. But my daughters are in mormonism and I am proud of their lives and accomplishments as young females and human beings. But it is their religion and must a divorced father need to listen to negativity and ravings on a almost constant basis without neutral life affiming posts? Think about it a little....I am jsut a divorced father of two mormon girls and I am rather defensive at the moment. But I have also learned alot on this forum and I have said so often. I know that there has been some life affirming posts...but sometimes it would be great to read about the'majority' of life that has been posted in the postmo vs, real life thread..... :)

<snip>
.
Why Me,

I will respond here to some questions you raised over in the 'To dogzilla, darin ...' thread because I believe this is where my response best fits, and that that initiative was moving away from the painful, but productive conversation we have been having here..

Why Me, finally I feel I have the information to make some sense of (reach some level of comfort for myself with) what I observe of your postings.

I have never felt you were a troll; intentionally causing disruption. To me you appeared to be all over the place, and that was what I struggled with. That along with a lot of talk about the 'out-there' stuff, but not a lot about where you were at personally - internally.

Finally in this post, I felt you stopped talking of socialism, capitalism, social justice, head vs heart etc. etc. etc., and spoke of your own life, and the pains you experience in it, and your desire to hear more of life beyond pain.

All that behaviour makes sense to me on one level after years of working with separated Dads as I do, and their struggle to deal with their pain, and their frequently misdirected efforts to get their life back on an even keel.

Just this week I listened as a 30 year old psychologist client cried in front of his male peers as he recounted having a sign which essentially labelled him as stupid, hung around his neck by a school teacher in the classroom. THat sort of toxicity leaves deep scars, that last for a long time uness healed.

What I hear, Why Me, is a Dad who feels somewhat powerless to shape his girls lives, now that he is largely marginalised from their existence. That is sadly way too common.

What I suspect I hear is a man who when he hears of the unhealthy parts of Mormonism, may feel impotent to help keep his daughters safe from any of those influences.

What I suspect I hear is a Dad who struggles with separating his own pain about that isolation and powerlessness, from his daughters actual experience. That too is quite common amongst separated, stressed, sometimes depressed and anxious fathers (and Mum's too, if they are the ones in that situation).

And the more stressed any of us become, particularly if we remain stressed for extended periods, without respite or treatment, if it is that acute, then our thinking starts to shift. It becomes more fear-based, more erratic, less focused, concentration gets harder. That is all very common high stress reaction (I just took that session with my current group just last night).

So security, love and community become more important, because we feel we are excluded from those things and wonder if they will ever return.

This is all well mapped territory, but sadly as a society we don't want to know what happens to Dads when they are marginalised and treated as expendible from their kids lives.

So Why Me, far from wanting to do to you what my (million $) Maltese dog likes to do on garden gnomes, I would hazard a guess that some of the above might be contributing to what I struggle with. Am I somewhat close to the money?

Because if that is close to the mark, then we can have a meaningful discussion and share some ideas, experience, feelings on THAT important subject, parts of which many people probably share, and would benefit by; rather than shadow-box about the peripheral issues like we have been.

Do we have a deal?

Daryl