Faith in Anything?

[Fredl]

OK, Having read many of the comments posted here, I'm about ready to commit to leaving the church. There's a lot that can be said against it and the sad fact is, I'm simply loosing interest in it.

Given this, my next thought is for my 15 and 11 year old kids.

Both are really fine kids. I don't think I could find two that I'd rate higher. Oh, it's true that my boy is not the athlete I wish he was, but he is very devoted to sports and, despite his limitations, has improved enormously over time. As a student, he is remarkable, achieving a 3.7 GPA last semester despite being a year younger than his classmates due to several years of home-schooling. Most of his classes were Honors or AP (College Credit) courses.

My girl is just as terrific. She's back in Public School this year after home schooling last year and I have every expectation she will again get straight A's as she did the last time she attended Public School.

My kids seem to regard the church ideals for children as a sort of anchor for their belief systems, which means they aspire to honesty, industriousness, cheerfulness and several other qualities that I find admirable. I attribute a significant part of this to the consistent reinforcement of these qualities in our church. community.

I dread the alternatives that seem to exist outside the church. First of all, developing a sense of identity without the sort of tribal identity that exists within the church. Second, relying on nothing but my personal authority in raising my children. Thirdly, developing a sort of structure for our family life. And, perhaps most of all, giving up the assurance that we are serving a higher cause than our own, personal agendas.

I guess that as long as a person is working off their anger towards the church, these issues have little importance. My problem is that I'm really not mad at anybody and as a result these issues are confronting me immediately.

Fred

[hamar]

OK, Having read many of the comments posted here, I'm about ready to commit to leaving the church. There's a lot that can be said against it and the sad fact is, I'm simply loosing interest in it.

Given this, my next thought is for my 15 and 11 year old kids.

Both are really fine kids. I don't think I could find two that I'd rate higher. Oh, it's true that my boy is not the athlete I wish he was, but he is very devoted to sports and, despite his limitations, has improved enormously over time. As a student, he is remarkable, achieving a 3.7 GPA last semester despite being a year younger than his classmates due to several years of home-schooling. Most of his classes were Honors or AP (College Credit) courses.

My girl is just as terrific. She's back in Public School this year after home schooling last year and I have every expectation she will again get straight A's as she did the last time she attended Public School.

My kids seem to regard the church ideals for children as a sort of anchor for their belief systems, which means they aspire to honesty, industriousness, cheerfulness and several other qualities that I find admirable. I attribute a significant part of this to the consistent reinforcement of these qualities in our church. community.

I dread the alternatives that seem to exist outside the church. First of all, developing a sense of identity without the sort of tribal identity that exists within the church. Second, relying on nothing but my personal authority in raising my children. Thirdly, developing a sort of structure for our family life. And, perhaps most of all, giving up the assurance that we are serving a higher cause than our own, personal agendas.

I guess that as long as a person is working off their anger towards the church, these issues have little importance. My problem is that I'm really not mad at anybody and as a result these issues are confronting me immediately.

Fred

I can relate to your concerns, but I'm sure there are many who have left the church with children your age that will be able to give you good advice. My children are grown and have children of their own. My daughter is "investigating" leaving now, and I know that she is concerned about how her children will respond and how to insert something in their lives that will replace the social interaction they have in the church.

I submit, however, that your concerns may be a little unfounded, I know the dynamics are different in every situation, but I suspect that your kids didn't become such good kids because of the influence they get from the church. You did that, not the church, and you aren't going to go anywhere or change into a different person with different values after you make the choice to leave.

Your family values will remain the same as well. I submit that the church ideals that you referred to are more your family ideals and that they wouldn't be much different outside the church. Kids will be influenced to get involved with alcohol and drugs whether they are LDS or agnostic or whatever. It isn't the institution that influences them away from such associations, it is the good and loving council and relationships that they have with parents. I also suspect that your kids have developed their value systems through good conversations with their parents not from priesthood leaders.

Your 15 yr. old is approaching the point where he is going to rebel anyway; most do around 17/18. Some are worse than others, but almost every teenager has to experiment with independence and some push the limits placed on them by parents pretty hard. I doubt that leaving the church will change that much and continued communication and monitoring their associates, I think is the key to helping them navigate through that time in their lives.

If you choose not to throw out the baby with the bath water, there are lots of good bible based churches that have excellent programs for youth and will help maintain the tribal identity that you referenced.

My suggestion would be that you just tell them the truth when you have decided that you are going to go forward. When presented with sound evidence you'll probably be surprised at the intelligent choices they will make.

Good luck with whatever you path you choose.

[helemon]

My kids seem to regard the church ideals for children as a sort of anchor for their belief systems, which means they aspire to honesty, industriousness, cheerfulness and several other qualities that I find admirable. I attribute a significant part of this to the consistent reinforcement of these qualities in our church. community.


Here's something to consider. If they stay in the church and you leave then you will not be allowed to see their wedding. Also how will they feel when they start realizing the church has not been honest with them while demanding this virtue in the members? Still pulling them out of the church, especially if you live in Utah could be very hard on them. It could disrupt their schoolwork. It may be best to play along for now while quitely inserting statements about teachings you do not agree with, like equating skin color with sin, or that polygamy is ok. Expose them to other religious beliefs and see how they react. You may find that they naturally gravitate toward a particular religion. Beliefnet.com is a good resource for information about a wide variety of religions that they might find interesting. Teach them tolerance of other beliefs as well. This will help them to make friends outside the church. Get them involved in non-church activities where they are more likely to make friends with non-members. You may want to wait until they are in college before completely dropping the bomb. On the other hand, they may have doubts of their own and are only acting the part of faithful mormon youth to keep you happy?

[peter_mary]

Fredl,

There are lots of people in your shoes...

We left (well, we've "been leaving" now for 5 years...long story and I've told it many times), when our kids were 16, 14, 12 and 5. Oddly, it was the easiest thing to do. Now, part of that is because I was a convert, and my entire family were not members, and we spent a LOT of time talking about how great people could be who weren't members of the Church (strange that you have to do that, but trust me...we had to).

Our eldest will tell you that leaving the Church saved her life. Literally.

Our numbers two and three will tell you that the freedom to think and believe as they see fit is infinately superior to any of the support they might miss from the clan.

Our baby...well, she just doesn't know any different.

What we've found is that our kids are "bilingual." They know how to speak the language of their LDS peers, and they know how to speak the language of their non-LDS peers. They walk that dual path better than we do. Well, better than I do, anyway.

But more importanly, we've found that our kids' committment to avoiding the kinds of things the Church suggests you avoid has actually been STRENGTHENED by leaving the Church rather than compromised. Now, I'm not saying that could be generalized to everyone's experience, but from what I've gathered from YOUR posts, it's likely it could happen in your home. Here's my theory.

I believe that the standards as taught by the Church, while good and all, are only theoretical to teenagers. God is not real to them, but they've only known life believing in Him, and so they believe us when we tell them how "bad" all the sins of the world are. But they don't KNOW they're bad, and frankly, those sins seem pretty dang interesting. All they know is there is this "idea" out there that seems to suggest that IF they act on their impulses, then they MIGHT run the risk of some kind of eternal punishment AFTER they die, UNLESS they do the repentence dance (complete with arm flapping). So they TRY to be good, but if they slip up, then they just have to say, "Ooops! My bad! Sooooo sorry, and I promise I won't do that again!" But if they do, they just say "Oops!" all over again.

When you take that theoretical construct away, you find yourself confronted with the reality of quality, skillful living. We talk to our kids now about things like sex, drugs and alcohol (as well as honesty, integrity, hard work, scholastic achievement, etc) on the merits of the behavior itself, rather than on some theoretical "might happen" consequence that comes after you die. Now they know that they aren't emotionally mature enough to engage in a sexual relationship, but that they WILL know when they are, based on their awareness of what a healthy relationship actually is. We've talked about all that. They know why experimenting with drugs and boozing it up when they are kids is stupid...not because God told them so via some old guy in Salt Lake that they've never met, but because we've talked about what happens, what it's like, what the potential risks are, and they've seen it first hand with their buddies who are screwing up.

What I'm saying is, they are BETTER off now, because they have an internalized set of values, that they created by themselves but based on the way in which we modeled, and the things we talked about openly, honestly, and frequently with them. Those values belong to them, not to us, or to the Church, and subsequently, they adhere to those values.

That doesn't mean they won't have sex until they're married, (although they might...who knows). But we DO believe they won't have sex until they believe the relationship is mature enough to manage that kind of emotional intensity and vulnerability.

That doesn't mean they won't ever have a drink, but they have no interest in it at this point in their life. They ARE interested in quality relationships, with quality people, and they create those where ever they are.

School-aged children are surrounded by GOBS of age-mates of all different persuasions. If your kids are healthy, they will create their own tribe. The Church actually teaches you that the wolves are waiting at the door waiting to devour your children once they leave the save haven of the Church. Sigh... It's simply not true. Like Hamar said, the REAL strength of your children is a combo-pack of the way they came, the way they are raised, and the quality of the relationships they have with the role models in their life. The Church CAN play a role in all that...sometimes a very good one. But there are millions and millions of great families in this country, raising great kids, with great values, who did it all without the Church. More and more, they are doing it without any Church at all. But the Church doesn't want you to know that...and so they perpetuate the myth that if you leave, you'll lose your kids.

Trust your kids, support your kids, but most importantly, be open and honest with them, honoring their feelings, exploring their journey, and I expect you'll find, like oodles of former Mormons, that leaving the Church is not NEARLY so hard for kids as we think it will be.

Anyway, those are my thoughts. You are, as I recall, considerably more isolated from Zion, and your experience might be quite a bit different. Still, I don't think you can ever go wrong trusting your kids, as long as you are talking to them regularly.

Peter_Mary

[hamar]

As Gordon would say, "Just Do It", or "Do It" or "Do It Now" or whatever the hell it is he says. Guess I should have taken better notes, huh? :)

[why me]

OK, Having read many of the comments posted here, I'm about ready to commit to leaving the church. There's a lot that can be said against it and the sad fact is, I'm simply loosing interest in it.

Given this, my next thought is for my 15 and 11 year old kids.

Both are really fine kids. I don't think I could find two that I'd rate higher. Oh, it's true that my boy is not the athlete I wish he was, but he is very devoted to sports and, despite his limitations, has improved enormously over time. As a student, he is remarkable, achieving a 3.7 GPA last semester despite being a year younger than his classmates due to several years of home-schooling. Most of his classes were Honors or AP (College Credit) courses.

My girl is just as terrific. She's back in Public School this year after home schooling last year and I have every expectation she will again get straight A's as she did the last time she attended Public School.

My kids seem to regard the church ideals for children as a sort of anchor for their belief systems, which means they aspire to honesty, industriousness, cheerfulness and several other qualities that I find admirable. I attribute a significant part of this to the consistent reinforcement of these qualities in our church. community.

I dread the alternatives that seem to exist outside the church. First of all, developing a sense of identity without the sort of tribal identity that exists within the church. Second, relying on nothing but my personal authority in raising my children. Thirdly, developing a sort of structure for our family life. And, perhaps most of all, giving up the assurance that we are serving a higher cause than our own, personal agendas.

I guess that as long as a person is working off their anger towards the church, these issues have little importance. My problem is that I'm really not mad at anybody and as a result these issues are confronting me immediately.

Fred
I am afraid Fred that very few can give you advice on this one. It is too big of an issue to be left to others. Also, we are rather skewed when it comes to advice. You know your children and you know what they need in their lives. If you think that your family is best served by pulling up anchor then by all means do so. If you think that your family will be adrift after pulling up anchor then think twice before doing so. There is nothing wrong with a tribal identity but of course, some people may flourish without such an identity. As you read on this thread people have had good experiences. Perhaps I would not follow Hamar in getting them into a bible class or something like that. Most people fear hell which guides actions in this life in born again classes. But this is your choice pure and simple. Get other advice...head on over to fair and see what they say about your issues. THis is something that you should not do lightly...but I know your feelings...I have two daughters who are just terrific and both are TBMs. I don't know how they would be without a tribal identity...they could not be better but worse but that is not to say that they would not be the same as they are now. Both of my children know that I am inactive...but they do not live with me. Leaving can be one thing but inactivity is quite another thing is someones mind. Good luck with your decision...try a good conversation about your feelings and what about your wife...what does she say about it all..? Her response might be the most important of all... :)

[flotsam]

I read a really great book called "Hat Full of Sky," by Terry Pratchett (author of the Discworld series). It's about the training of a young witch.

At one point the protagonist and her trainer are talking with a family of peasants that are constantly sick because their outhouse is too close to their well.

The training witch tells the family that goblins are coming out of the outhouse and poisoning the well.

On their way home the protagonists confronts her training asking why she told this family an out and out lie as she knew perfectly well that the microbes from the waste were infecting the water.

"Well," says her trainer, "I've been telling them about microbes for years, and they've never raised finger to fix the problem, but look," she pointed at the peasant's land where they had just started digging a new well, far from the outhouse, "goblins will get them to move the well."

The same thing happened with a fellow who had heart problems. The witch told him to climb a nearby hill each day and throw five rocks into a pond for the fairies, who would make his heart grow stronger. Obviously the exercise was what helped his heart, not the fairies. But he would not have gone up just for the exercise.

Similarly, I was reading an article about a new drug that keeps people awake. Millions of dollars have been put into this because, well, people are constantly tired and they love anything that can keep them chipper: coffee, Red Bull, Mountain Dew. Waaaay toward the end of the article a health expert was quoted as saying, "Well, the best way to reduce constant fatigue is to get more rest and exercise. But you can't sell that."

Same thing. Except that the witches were getting people to do healthy things to solve their problems under the guise of a fantastic story, whereas the caffeine marketers of today are not interested in their customers' health, only their money.

All this is to get to the point that some people require a fantastic story in order to do good things. For some people, if God is going to punish you for doing this or that, that's a motivating reason to not do this or that. But not doing this or that because of more commonplace, real life reasons, just doesn't cut the mustard.

So Fredl, I'd say, what motivates your kids? Are they doing healthy things now? Do they need the Mormon story to do them? Or could they do them with a more down-to-earth understanding? I think you just need to know your own kids.

Sometimes I think we adults tend to project our ideas, the product of years of experience and reflection, on our children, when they need to go through their lives in order to understand what we're talking about.

For example, the other day I was cleaning up the church and these two missionaries came in to use the phone. When I first saw them, I couldn't tell what their relationship was like, though one was definitely more leadery than the other. Later I saw them looking at their planners. The leadery one was standing up, the other was sprawled on the floor. They were talking in hushed tones and avoiding eye contact. Suddenly I saw exactly what was going on. The leadery guy was a district leader or zone leader and he was spending a day with this less motivated missionary, and the less motivated missionary was clearly overwhelmed by his presence as well as resentful. He was just trying to get through another long Saturday afternoon of nothing with this leadery guy breathing down his neck.

All my own memories of such experiences came back, and I wanted to stop and tell them, "OH man, I see what's going on here. Hey, look at it this way..." and give them some advice on how to not be such drags on each other, and maybe a little moral support to the overwhelmed guy ("this isn't all there is to life, some people have abilities and attitudes that mission life just can't make use of, give yourself some credit and find something that lets you be you instead of this guy's door mat") but I immediately recognized that they were in the middle of the missionary story, and that trying to rush them out of it with a few wise words simply wouldn't work. It would not have worked on me when I was on a mission. They have to live their lives. The have to live the story so that they can come into their own wisdom. Hopefully, they'll be wise enough to not share it with people who can't understand it.

In any case, I thought the case of that witch was very interesting. Is it more ethical to tell people fantastic stories if it comes to a good end (healthy, honest, civil people), than to insist on a "truth" that is less effective at motivating them?

[silverfox]

A fellow exmo mom asked me the other day, "How do you raise your kids now?" I feel so lost.

How sad.

Because first, I strongly feel, IMO, that raising my kids in the LDS cult did much more damage to them than not raising them in it.

Second, we don't give ourselves enough credit to know we can be good parents.

Third, I think using the church or any organization to tell you how to raise your kids is a copout and this may sound meanspirited but also is LAZY. (don't hate me, hey, I took the lazy way, too, for 30 years)

The church makes it easy. Just do this, do that, etc, etc, etc and when your kids turn out less than perfect you can go to your grave feeling like you FAILED as a parent.

IMO, the first thing as a parent we should do is EDUCATE ourselves about what our kids are exposed to. (something a text book won't help with)

Spend a day in jr high or high school. Just hang out in the halls and listen to what kids are talking about. Wow. Some of that stuff you won't find even on late night TV. (cable, yes, but not plain ol' TV)

Once I was able to get a clue as to what REALLY goes on around my kids I was able to become a much better parent. We are very open with each other about everything. Very little shocks me.

I don't think that's a bad thing, either. It's reality.

[meinmachine]

The biggest challenge in leaving the Church can often be the replacing of something with nothing; do this at your peril. If you have taught your children to think for themselves and you have taught them to apply reason to solve problems than they will not need “magic” to motivate them to act properly. For example, you can say drinking is bad because it violates the word of wisdom, or you can say it is not “bad” but beware of the social ills it causes and the way it affects people. Educate them and let them understand the real consequences of decisions. If you have done it right then your chances of having your kids avoid the larger social ills of our age will be dramatically improved.

If you fear they will be rudderless without the Church then I suggest you drift off to inactivity, neither endorsing nor rejecting, until the time is right. Teach them how to navigate this world without the need of mystical answers. Kids will believe because you believe, but they will eventually think for themselves, when they do the tools you give them will enable them to navigate through life’s rapids.

That is my two bits; it is probably worth a lot less! What is amazing about humans is no matter how screwed up the parents are, the kids usually turn out all right. So you are doing fine no matter what you do, so long as you are doing the best you can. There is hope! (This is what I keep telling myself anyway.)

Rob

[Fredl]

It iso nice to receive all these concerned and thoughtful responses sharing so many experieces and thoughts on dealing with this problem.

I have, indeed, opened the discussion with both my son and my wife. My daughter, I have little concern for. She is very independent, makes friends very quickly and easily and doesn't particularly like most of the kids her age at church. She's never particularly liked the church and is a naturally very self-assured skeptic with a strong sense of personal identity.

My son is no longer particularly interested in attending BYU and his group of "best friends", it turns out, now consists of school mates rather than the boys he knows thru the church. I have met most of his pals, mostly at Cross Country practice and I'm very impressed at their caliber. Last year, second semester he really got his act together academically and some of the best students encouraged him to start hanging out with them. His two best friends decided to run cross country this season. I'm sure he was the reason why.

A couple of days ago, I encouraged him to speak frankly to me about seminary and he was scathingly critical of it. Really surprized me!

Talked with my wife beginning about 3 weeks ago. She is not really very fond of the church, but has made some friends through it that she is uncertain as to the effect going inactive would have on their friendship. Is also very concerned as to the effect on our children.

I think that for "American Americans" (and likely, real "Australian Australians" or "British Brits", etc., the "Identity Issue" is more minor than for a person like my wife and even myself. My wife is, I suppose, no more than a generation or two away from Tribalism. She thinks of herself as "Ilocano" (the dominant ethnic group on Northern Luzon); it is her native language and if you could see her vegetable garden (I can spot an "Ilocano style garden" a mile away), eat her meals and see her in action with our children you would understand her self-identification as that. Yet, she does not want that for our children. She wants them to marry White Americans and does not want to have "Filipino Grandkids". To say that she has an extreme degree of ambivalence towards her ethnic heritage would not do the situation justice!

I think that for her, the Mormon Church has provided her with an identity that she feels makes her a real American and a group of people who accept her pretty much whole heartedly. Before we joined the church, she pretty much felt very uneasy with most American women and very troubled about her ability to raise children in the US.

She does not want to give these things up.

My story has some of the same elements, with my 3/4 Cherokee mom, in many ways, playing the same role in my family of origin that Emy plays in our family. In my family, I feel that many of the issues we are facing were poorly, or not at all resolved. And, I must say, that being members of the church did seem to resolve or defuse certain of the issues that being the offspring of "shattered cultures" seem to pose. I do know that feeling lonely, unattatched and "different" troubled me all my life. In the church I felt much better in these areas.

Well, thanks afain for the kind and thoughtful responses.

[helemon]

I think that for her, the Mormon Church has provided her with an identity that she feels makes her a real American and a group of people who accept her pretty much whole heartedly.

Isn't it sad that people feel like they have to give up their native culture in order to be American. Isn't it sad that the American global culture is so pervasive that truly unique native cultures are disappearing. I think you guys should start teaching your kids about their ancestral heritage. Instill in them pride in their Native American heritage. Teach them about the proud traditions of the Pacific Island nations and South Asian people.

There is no reason to be ashamed of such heritage or a need to get rid of it in order to be more "American." Native Americans were the original culture of this land. Don't let it die off because most of those around you are European. That doesn't mean you should go live on a reservation but I think it could be very valuable for your kids to learn more about your heritage. The world needs cultural diversity as much as biodiversity.

[Born Free]

<snip>

The world needs cultural diversity as much as biodiversity.

Right up there with think-diversity. Few things more dangerous than group-think.

Daryl

[cactus jack]

Fred, I have faith. I have faith in the fact that pizza and beer can cure anything known to man kind. And if it can't cure it, it sure will make ya feel a hell of a lot better! :D

[flotsam]

Isn't it sad that people feel like they have to give up their native culture in order to be American. Isn't it sad that the American global culture is so pervasive that truly unique native cultures are disappearing. I think you guys should start teaching your kids about their ancestral heritage. Instill in them pride in their Native American heritage. Teach them about the proud traditions of the Pacific Island nations and South Asian people.

There is no reason to be ashamed of such heritage or a need to get rid of it in order to be more "American." Native Americans were the original culture of this land. Don't let it die off because most of those around you are European. That doesn't mean you should go live on a reservation but I think it could be very valuable for your kids to learn more about your heritage. The world needs cultural diversity as much as biodiversity.

I'm interested, helemon. If you came across a fellow who had a strong line of Mormon ancestors, would you give him the same advice you gave Fredl up there?

[elder_nomo]

In any case, I thought the case of that witch was very interesting. Is it more ethical to tell people fantastic stories if it comes to a good end (healthy, honest, civil people), than to insist on a "truth" that is less effective at motivating them?
Thanks for the post, Flotsam. Not only was the story of the witch interesting, it also led you to a very interesting question. I think you are asking if the end can justify the means.
Back in my TBM days, I would have immediately said "No - we must have truth, at any cost." [a little ironic, don't ya think?] But now I couldn't be so quick to answer. I am more willing now, to be more practical and not see the world so black and white.
You really got me thinking!
And I guess my answer is... yes, sometimes a fantastic story that leads to a good end can be a good thing.
But now we have to ask what is a "good end".
In my opinion, mormonism can lead to *some* good things, but on the whole, not a good end.

[helemon]

I'm interested, helemon. If you came across a fellow who had a strong line of Mormon ancestors, would you give him the same advice you gave Fredl up there?

Sure. I think it is possible to cherish the noble achievements of Mormon pioneers while recognizing the faults of its founders. I come from a long line of Mormon ancestors. I have no problem taking my kids to church history sites like Nauvoo or Temple Square. They should know what their ancestors did and who they were, the good and the bad.

I think the early mormons showed a lot of courage in being willing to give up everything to follow what they believed in. That is not something to be ashamed of. Just because the religion is not what they thought it was doesn't negate what they accomplished in building early Mormon settlements and the state of Utah.

[miss taken]

I can't add much of use here, all I can say is that I love my son more than anything. I'd pretty much do anything for him, I want him to be happy to fulfill his potential, to discover, to experience, to live life to the full, to find a job that he loves and finds enriching.

It is testament to me of the depth of my belief, that I do not feel that the LDS church is essential to his salvation. I don't know if I said that right since I am not a good writer, but what I am trying to say that if I did have any belief in the validity of the LDS church then I would be there like a shot trying to raise my son in it.

I cannot believe in a capricious, elitist, unforgiving God.
I do not believe in most of the biblical and sacred textual view of God. It's all just blokes, sometimes searching, sometimes looking for power and control.

I try and sieve through all that to what I truly and honestly believe, and that is that there is an entity full of love and that we continue after death with a purpose that is positive and constructive.

My goal for myself and that of my son is to be a truly authentic good, loving (and even nice!!!) person.

My dh's family grew up with no physical affection, it's made them hard, necessarily so. Giving a child a cuddle goes a long long way!!!!

Mary

[hamar]

I am afraid Fred that very few can give you advice on this one. It is too big of an issue to be left to others. Also, we are rather skewed when it comes to advice. You know your children and you know what they need in their lives. If you think that your family is best served by pulling up anchor then by all means do so. If you think that your family will be adrift after pulling up anchor then think twice before doing so. There is nothing wrong with a tribal identity but of course, some people may flourish without such an identity. As you read on this thread people have had good experiences. Perhaps I would not follow Hamar in getting them into a bible class or something like that. Most people fear hell which guides actions in this life in born again classes. But this is your choice pure and simple. Get other advice...head on over to fair and see what they say about your issues. THis is something that you should not do lightly...but I know your feelings...I have two daughters who are just terrific and both are TBMs. I don't know how they would be without a tribal identity...they could not be better but worse but that is not to say that they would not be the same as they are now. Both of my children know that I am inactive...but they do not live with me. Leaving can be one thing but inactivity is quite another thing is someones mind. Good luck with your decision...try a good conversation about your feelings and what about your wife...what does she say about it all..? Her response might be the most important of all... :)

If you are going to quote me and give advice based on my comments you could at least have the courtesy of getting it right. I said Bible based church. That is a lot different than a Bible Class. And if you knew anything about non-LDS faith you wouldn't suggest that Bible Based has anything to do with Born Again.

[why me]

If you are going to quote me and give advice based on my comments you could at least have the courtesy of getting it right. I said Bible based church. That is a lot different than a Bible Class. And if you knew anything about non-LDS faith you wouldn't suggest that Bible Based has anything to do with Born Again.
I suppose that I am not very positive about bible based churches...they preach hell and heaven and also live on fear. I did attend a UU church when I was in Salt Lake at the same time I attended an LDS church. I liked that church alot...very progressive human ideas where shared from the pulpit...I still listen to sermons from UU pulpits when I am at work via the internet but I am not sure if they are bible based. What is a bible based church in your opinion? And who are they? I have a born again experience in mind...sorry if I were wrong....but I hear a lot of talk from God TV via Engand about how people need to find a bible based church to support...and I know that they are not talking about the catholics more penecostal, I think. Take care Hamar... :)

[free thinker]

I have to do this quote from a Jimi Hendricks song for you. I think about it every time I see you post.


" .... and the wind whispered MARY..."

I love that song. I hope you have heard it.


I try and sieve through all that to what I truly and honestly believe, and that is that there is an entity full of love and that we continue after death with a purpose that is positive and constructive.

My goal for myself and that of my son is to be a truly authentic good, loving (and even nice!!!) person.

This is my belief also. Some good power or force.


free thinker

[miss taken]

I have to do this quote from a Jimi Hendricks song for you. I think about it every time I see you post.


" .... and the wind whispered MARY..."

I love that song. I hope you have heard it.


I try and sieve through all that to what I truly and honestly believe, and that is that there is an entity full of love and that we continue after death with a purpose that is positive and constructive.

My goal for myself and that of my son is to be a truly authentic good, loving (and even nice!!!) person.

This is my belief also. Some good power or force.


free thinker

I'll check out Jimi Hendrix Free Thinker!!! My mum saddled me with quite an old-fashioned name!!

One of my good friends husband likes Jimi Hendrix so much that if he had a boy he wanted to call him Hendrix. It turned out to be a girl, and they gave her a welsh name!!! (Much to the relief I think, of my friend!!)


Glad I am not the only one who hasn't given up on a good power or force!!!
Mary

[hitchiker]

A fellow exmo mom asked me the other day, "How do you raise your kids now?" I feel so lost.

How sad.

Because first, I strongly feel, IMO, that raising my kids in the LDS cult did much more damage to them than not raising them in it.

Second, we don't give ourselves enough credit to know we can be good parents.

Third, I think using the church or any organization to tell you how to raise your kids is a copout and this may sound meanspirited but also is LAZY. (don't hate me, hey, I took the lazy way, too, for 30 years)

The church makes it easy. Just do this, do that, etc, etc, etc and when your kids turn out less than perfect you can go to your grave feeling like you FAILED as a parent.

IMO, the first thing as a parent we should do is EDUCATE ourselves about what our kids are exposed to. (something a text book won't help with)

Spend a day in jr high or high school. Just hang out in the halls and listen to what kids are talking about. Wow. Some of that stuff you won't find even on late night TV. (cable, yes, but not plain ol' TV)

Once I was able to get a clue as to what REALLY goes on around my kids I was able to become a much better parent. We are very open with each other about everything. Very little shocks me.

I don't think that's a bad thing, either. It's reality.i raised five kids in the church , i did not realize how bad it was untill the third child developed BI Polar problems , he was totaly shunned by the lds except for one person who did a little bit to help , the best help came from a non member young adult , who held a managerial position at work at took him in as a worker , my other daughter was a bit off the rails and asked if she could go to church college , she was 15 , i said you can,t go because there not enough money for it , so she got a part time job and saved up , she also arranged all her own bishops interviews ect and gave up smoking , a big effort for a 15 year old , on submitting her papers she recieved a callous rejection letter saying her science report was not good enough , i rang the principle and told him how hard she tried , sorry he exsplained , lots of aplications and we only take the best , even when i exsplained she was paying her own way it made no difference , i wondered about a church that did not reward young people who tried , i thought of all the kids down there who were there on daddys pay check , families who had a big name in the church , the look of rejection on my daughters face stuck with me a long time , once again the church failed us , their youth programme only catered for kids that were on line , kids with problems were pushed aside generaly , in many different ways , made to feel unwelcome , i wish the prophet knew about the jerks he has doing his business

[why me]

I can't add much of use here, all I can say is that I love my son more than anything. I'd pretty much do anything for him, I want him to be happy to fulfill his potential, to discover, to experience, to live life to the full, to find a job that he loves and finds enriching.

It is testament to me of the depth of my belief, that I do not feel that the LDS church is essential to his salvation. I don't know if I said that right since I am not a good writer, but what I am trying to say that if I did have any belief in the validity of the LDS church then I would be there like a shot trying to raise my son in it.

I cannot believe in a capricious, elitist, unforgiving God.
I do not believe in most of the biblical and sacred textual view of God. It's all just blokes, sometimes searching, sometimes looking for power and control.

I try and sieve through all that to what I truly and honestly believe, and that is that there is an entity full of love and that we continue after death with a purpose that is positive and constructive.

My goal for myself and that of my son is to be a truly authentic good, loving (and even nice!!!) person.

My dh's family grew up with no physical affection, it's made them hard, necessarily so. Giving a child a cuddle goes a long long way!!!!

Mary
I agree with much you have to say Mary. You have some great ideas in your post. But I was wondering if you worry about the social issues that are in the UK today. For example: I know that the UK has a drinking binge problem with young and old alike not to mention juvenile crime and drug use. It seems to me like the UK has lost its soul on many fronts. But I am also sure that there is much good there too. But what to do about the negative social behavior of young people and how can a young person cope with negatives without being drawn into them? It seems to me that a young person needs a clear definition of what is right and what is wrong...he or she also needs a good value structure. How can a parent raise a child without religious background in an environment that is very secular in understanding? There is a certain risk factor here don't you think? And is the home enough support because it can seem to me that the home can fail a young child, if the parents are not rooted in some sort of good value ethic....Just my opinion... :)

[miss taken]

I agree with much you have to say Mary. You have some great ideas in your post. But I was wondering if you worry about the social issues that are in the UK today. For example: I know that the UK has a drinking binge problem with young and old alike not to mention juvenile crime and drug use. It seems to me like the UK has lost its soul on many fronts. But I am also sure that there is much good there too. But what to do about the negative social behavior of young people and how can a young person cope with negatives without being drawn into them? It seems to me that a young person needs a clear definition of what is right and what is wrong...he or she also needs a good value structure. How can a parent raise a child without religious background in an environment that is very secular in understanding? There is a certain risk factor here don't you think? And is the home enough support because it can seem to me that the home can fail a young child, if the parents are not rooted in some sort of good value ethic....Just my opinion... :)

My hubbies family are a pretty good example of a family that holds to no organised religion, yet they have managed to raise 6 pretty good kids. (The eldest is now 70!). They all have really productive professions, from university lecturers to designers and radiographers.
They are all moral. They don't drink too much, none smoke. All beleive in the importance of fidelity and strong family values.

So my MIL shows that it is possible to bring up 6 very moral children without the benefit of organised religion!

I do agree with the LDS church that the family is the root of society. Get that right and everything else pretty much falls into place.


Why me, I think the press on drinking is coming because of the worries about changes to licencing laws. There have always been the kids that experimented with alchohol, drugs, cigarettes, sex. I do agree that society is becoming much more secularised. The roll models are not what they used to be...Mostly David Beckham...and pop stars and so forth.

I do agree that it is good to have some kind of moral compass whether that be through religion or not. I do think it comes back to the family.

[helemon]

It seems to me that a young person needs a clear definition of what is right and what is wrong...he or she also needs a good value structure. How can a parent raise a child without religious background in an environment that is very secular in understanding? There is a certain risk factor here don't you think? And is the home enough support because it can seem to me that the home can fail a young child, if the parents are not rooted in some sort of good value ethic....Just my opinion... :)

Why do you assume that all values and sense of right and wrong must come from a religious source? Are the Madrasas teaching Islamic youths a sense of ethics and right and wrong by encouraging jihad on the US? There is no concensus among religions about ethics or values so why do you insist that a religion is capable of imparting these qualities to young people? Religion is more likely to allow kids to jutify treating other human beings whose views differ from their own as inferior life forms worthy of shunning at a minimum and worthy of death at a maximum. I would much rather kids adopt a secular humanist set of values and ethics than anything offered up by the majority of the worlds religions.

What values and ethics do kids learn from JS? It's ok to plagarize? It's ok to commit adultery? It's ok to trick people into giving you money? It's ok to lie if you think it will increase your power and influence? It's ok to malign someones character because they stand up to your authority? It's ok to coerce women into having sex with you? Sorry but these are not the ethics and values I want my kids to learn.

[helemon]

Here is an example of one of the great :Puking religious minds of our day:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-0508240127aug24,1,5853120.story?coll=chi-news-hed

In a televised interview in 2003, Robertson suggested nuking the U.S. State Department as punishment for its errant foreign policies. As we say in Chicago, make no little plans.

Robertson had lobbed rhetorical grenades at State before that. "Maybe we need a very small nuke thrown off on Foggy Bottom to shake things up like [former U.S. House Speaker] Newt Gingrich wants to do," he once said.

Also in 2003, Robertson exhorted his viewers to pray for the resignation of three U.S. Supreme Court justices--he didn't name names, but specified that they be an 83-year-old, one with cancer and another with a heart ailment.

As 2005 dawned and Robertson's prayers hadn't been answered, he might have grown frustrated. He wasn't. He announced early this year that God had told him: "I will remove judges from the Supreme Court quickly. ..."

On Monday, Robertson aimed his rant at Hugo Chavez, the president of Venezuela.

"You know, I don't know about this doctrine of assassination ... but if [Chavez] thinks we are trying to assassinate him, I think we really ought to go ahead and do it," Robertson said. "It's a whole lot cheaper than starting a war, and I don't think any oil shipments will stop.

And remember that Robertson's moral indignation is selective. In 2003--a busy year for him--he slammed the Bush administration's calls for Liberian President Charles Taylor to resign. A UN-backed tribunal had indicted Taylor for war crimes in Sierra Leone.

You see, some of Robertson's financial investments happened to be tied up in Liberia. Ah, morality is in the details.

Yeah, there's a religious man the youth of today can learn morality, values and ethics from! Not! :Puking Whyme, do you think a kid would be acting ethically and morally if he tried to carry out the comments and "revelations" of Mr. Roberts?

[why me]

Here is an example of one of the great :Puking religious minds of our day:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-0508240127aug24,1,5853120.story?coll=chi-news-hed


Yeah, there's a religious man the youth of today can learn morality, values and ethics from! Not! :Puking Whyme, do you think a kid would be acting ethically and morally if he tried to carry out the comments and "revelations" of Mr. Roberts?
I heard what Pat Robertson said when I was watching the 700 club. I almost fell off my chair! I am a big fan of President Chavez..he is my kind of guy and a friend of the poor. This was brought out by the the report on the 700 club but it was so overlooked in Pat's commentary that I felt old Pat was in zozo land. So many of the poor in chavez's country spoke out in his favor during that report. I do like chavez...he is a good friend of my 'hero' Fidel. Shame on Pat! You see helemon I am not a CTR (choose the right) kind of guy...I am more of a CTL kind of guy---CHOOSE THE LEFT! Take care...