New Book about Joseph Smith...

[why me]

A new book about Joseph Smith will be published in September. I am currently reading the author's previous book: Joseph Smith and the orgins of Mormonism published by a university press. It will be interesting to see what exactly he says about Joseph Smith. In the book that I just mentioned he does handle the critics very well. Here is where the book can be found: http://www.randomhouse.com/knopf/catalog/display.pperl?isbn=9781400042708

The publisher is a respectable publisher...as I said in a previous post...the LDS church is respected in the greater community at large. Will anyone here buy the book....?

[meinmachine]

A new book about Joseph Smith will be published in September. I am currently reading the author's previous book: Joseph Smith and the orgins of Mormonism published by a university press. It will be interesting to see what exactly he says about Joseph Smith. In the book that I just mentioned he does handle the critics very well. Here is where the book can be found: http://www.randomhouse.com/knopf/catalog/display.pperl?isbn=9781400042708

The publisher is a respectable publisher...as I said in a previous post...the LDS church is respected in the greater community at large. Will anyone here buy the book....?

I will not.

It sounds like he is trying to sound unbiased, but in fact he is biased. I like reading magazines and books of opinion, as long as I know the basis of their opinion. However, I think that I have read more than enough of the apologist’s arguments and I think his book is probably more of the same. Let me know if I am wrong.

I started my University training in 1987. I used to HATE communist historians that always seemed to find the relationship between "the means of production" and the "Dialectic of the people" Blah, blah, blah... It was a broken record. Yes, the Commies have a point, but few historians think that communist historical theories are correct. Thanks largely to the collapse of the Soviet Union; Communist History is seen as a bankrupt historical model, so few cling to it. Mormon history written by Mormon's is the same. Perhaps it will be abandoned only when t has died, but I doubt the corporation will fall apart anytime soon. As PT Barnum said, "There is a sucker born every minute."

[peter_mary]

For me, I was well aware of the attributes of Joseph Smith that the Church wanted us to know...it was the books I've read since then that rounded out the picture. I don't need this book to round me out...I needed Fawn Brodie and Michael Quinn to do that job. Previous to reading those books, I had a very skewed view of the First Prophet.

I'm really unconvinced that Bushman has anything new or revealing to give me. My guess is, this is an attempt on the part of apologists to find a middle ground on Smith that accounts for some of the wackiness, but that doesn't lose his contributions. They want this to be the biography that people read first, rather than "No Man Knows My History." Well, that's all well and good, but I already know what he's gonna tell me regarding Smith's contributions. And others have already helped me understand the "rest of the story," so I can't see myself finding much use for this one.

Besides, Terryl Givens gives it flowering reviews on Amazon, and that's good enough for me to know to stear clear. :rolleyes: Personal experience has demonstrated that if Givens hates a book, I'll enjoy it, and if he loves it, I won't. BTW, Givens HATED Krakauer's "Under the Banner of Heaven." Anyone care to speculate what I thought of it?

Peter_Mary

[free thinker]

A complete unknown." Bob Dylan


Na, not for me. I didn't see any mention of polygamy, bank fraud, treason, plagariasm etc. so I figure this will just be more JS fluff.

I spent thirty years reading this stuff. I have read all I need to read. I think I know the real Joseph now.

free thinker

[why me]

It seems to me that from the three who have posted so far no one will read the book. I think that that is unfortunate. I would have hoped that a postmo would be open to different interpretations but it seems that this is not the case so far. What is there to be afraid of? Knowledge is knowledge and certainly one can read the book with a critical mind. Is is because that the author of this book does not follow a postmo line that the book is suddenly out of bounds for postmos to read? What then is the difference between a postmo and a mo? Very little, I presume. I would have hoped for a more open ended response but perhaps this will not be the case. But think of it in this way: By excluding yourself from reading a book about Joseph Smith published by knopf publishers, a postmo is basically adopting the attitude of a mo. Now I could see if desseret was the publisher but this is not the case here.
Now of course, flotsom and I have been here for quite some time reading many articles and visiting many websites which would ground a postmo in postmo thought...that is okay...because it comes with the territory...but a postmo also needs to have their own beliefs questioned by writers who may have a different interpretation of events. Unless of course, a postmo now has the truth and as such, sees that truth as devine and unquestionable. But could a postmo read such a book, as will be published by knopf or random house, without bias intent? Maybe not and if that is the case that would be sad indeed because a postmo would then be locked in a postmo cellar without a light or candle to point the way forward.
Now to get personal...I have enjoyed the articles that I have read or the opinions that have been shared in this forum...they have given me great unpeace but they have also given me great insight into mormon lack of understanding about the human condition. But I would hope that I would never close the door on mormon thought written by scholars that I don't see eye to eye on. I know that the author is a mormon but he is also a scholar and a well-respected historian outside church circles.....lets open minds and not close them... :)

[hamar]

It seems to me that from the three who have posted so far no one will read the book. I think that that is unfortunate. I would have hoped that a postmo would be open to different interpretations but it seems that this is not the case so far. What is there to be afraid of? Knowledge is knowledge and certainly one can read the book with a critical mind. Is is because that the author of this book does not follow a postmo line that the book is suddenly out of bounds for postmos to read? What then is the difference between a postmo and a mo? Very little, I presume. I would have hoped for a more open ended response but perhaps this will not be the case. But think of it in this way: By excluding yourself from reading a book about Joseph Smith published by knopf publishers, a postmo is basically adopting the attitude of a mo. Now I could see if desseret was the publisher but this is not the case here.
Now of course, flotsom and I have been here for quite some time reading many articles and visiting many websites which would ground a postmo in postmo thought...that is okay...because it comes with the territory...but a postmo also needs to have their own beliefs questioned by writers who may have a different interpretation of events. Unless of course, a postmo now has the truth and as such, sees that truth as devine and unquestionable. But could a postmo read such a book, as will be published by knopf or random house, without bias intent? Maybe not and if that is the case that would be sad indeed because a postmo would then be locked in a postmo cellar without a light or candle to point the way forward.
Now to get personal...I have enjoyed the articles that I have read or the opinions that have been shared in this forum...they have given me great unpeace but they have also given me great insight into mormon lack of understanding about the human condition. But I would hope that I would never close the door on mormon thought written by scholars that I don't see eye to eye on. I know that the author is a mormon but he is also a scholar and a well-respected historian outside church circles.....lets open minds and not close them... :)

I'd like to add my support to the others who have posted here before you. I have been reading mormon "scholars" for nearly 30 years now and was surprised, when I finally looked at the so called "anti" literature, at all the facts the mormon "scholars" they leave out of their "scholarly" work.

While I will, from time to time, continue to read material generated by the mormon apologists, I have found that there is a very large source of what I would characterize as more fair and balanced information available for even a semi intelligent person like me to read and understand much more easily than the vomit that the apologists try to feed us.

After 30 years of morg brainwashing, the last thing I want right now is more bullshit from the apologists, which is what I suspect this book is. Especially if he fails to cover the fact that JS was a pedifile, etc. IMHO

[peter_mary]

It seems to me that from the three who have posted so far no one will read the book. I think that that is unfortunate. I would have hoped that a postmo would be open to different interpretations but it seems that this is not the case so far. What is there to be afraid of? Knowledge is knowledge and certainly one can read the book with a critical mind.

Actually, why_me, speaking for myself, it's more about the law of diminishing returns than it is "rejecting" an author's work. I've read volumes on Joseph Smith, those close to him, the systems he set up, etc., both pro and con, and I just don't WANT to read another one. If I had reason to believe that this book was going to have something substantive and NEW to offer, then I would certainly avail myself to it.

But you've drawn an erroneous conclusion, at least on my part, when you've assumed that I have rejected the book on the basis that it is "friendly" to Joe. As I said in my earlier post, I was intimately familiar with the apologists' Joseph Smith. What I WASN'T familiar with was the other side of old Joe, and so my education concerning the first prophet necessarily required that I go and read the rest of the story. At that point, I felt I had a more complete picture, and "just another biography" isn't going to be worth it to me if it doesn't offer genuinely new insight. Otherwise, it's just tilling old ground.

For the sake of argument, here's what I've read (that I can recall off the top of my head) about Joseph Smith. I think you'll understand at that point why perhaps I'm not running to read "just another one."

1) Joseph Smith: The First Mormon by Donna Hill
2) No Man Knows My History by Fawn Brodie
3) In Sacred Loneliness: The Plural Wives of Joseph Smith by Todd Compton
4) History of the Church by Joseph Smith
5) An American Prophet's Record: The Diaries and Journals of Joseph Smith by Joseph Smith, edited by Scott Faulring
6) Insiders View of Mormonism by Grant Palmer
7) The Book of Mormon by Joseph Smith
8) The Doctrine and Covenants by Joseph Smith
9) History Of The Mormon Joseph Smith By His Mother And Devoted Member Of The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints by Lucy MacK Smith
10) Early Mormonism and the Magic World View by D. Michael Quinn
11) The Mormon Hierarchy: Origins of Power (Mormon Hierarchy) by D. Michael Quinn
12) By His Own Hand Upon Papyrus: A New Look at the Joseph Smith Papyri by Charles M. Larson
13) Mormon Enigma: Emma Hale Smith by Newell and Avery
14) Orrin Porter Rockwell by Benita N Schindler
15) Sidney Rigdon: A Portrait of Religious Excess by Richard S. Van Wagoner
16) Mormon Polygamy: A History by Richard S. Van Wagoner
17) 15 years of Priesthood manuals, teaching and leadership positions in the Church, and gobs of Church books by GAs with schmaltzy titles like, "And thou sayest, cometh unto me."

And there are probably more, but those are the ones that come to mind. What I'm saying is, despite your assumption that I'm just refusing to read something because I'm as closed minded now as when I was a practicing Mormon, the fact is, I'm pretty much done with the subject unless someone's got some breakthrough new information.

Peter_Mary

[why me]

Actually, why_me, speaking for myself, it's more about the law of diminishing returns than it is "rejecting" an author's work. I've read volumes on Joseph Smith, those close to him, the systems he set up, etc., both pro and con, and I just don't WANT to read another one. If I had reason to believe that this book was going to have something substantive and NEW to offer, then I would certainly avail myself to it.

But you've drawn an erroneous conclusion, at least on my part, when you've assumed that I have rejected the book on the basis that it is "friendly" to Joe. As I said in my earlier post, I was intimately familiar with the apologists' Joseph Smith. What I WASN'T familiar with was the other side of old Joe, and so my education concerning the first prophet necessarily required that I go and read the rest of the story. At that point, I felt I had a more complete picture, and "just another biography" isn't going to be worth it to me if it doesn't offer genuinely new insight. Otherwise, it's just tilling old ground.

For the sake of argument, here's what I've read (that I can recall off the top of my head) about Joseph Smith. I think you'll understand at that point why perhaps I'm not running to read "just another one."

1) Joseph Smith: The First Mormon by Donna Hill
2) No Man Knows My History by Fawn Brodie
3) In Sacred Loneliness: The Plural Wives of Joseph Smith by Todd Compton
4) History of the Church by Joseph Smith
5) An American Prophet's Record: The Diaries and Journals of Joseph Smith by Joseph Smith, edited by Scott Faulring
6) Insiders View of Mormonism by Grant Palmer
7) The Book of Mormon by Joseph Smith
8) The Doctrine and Covenants by Joseph Smith
9) History Of The Mormon Joseph Smith By His Mother And Devoted Member Of The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints by Lucy MacK Smith
10) Early Mormonism and the Magic World View by D. Michael Quinn
11) The Mormon Hierarchy: Origins of Power (Mormon Hierarchy) by D. Michael Quinn
12) By His Own Hand Upon Papyrus: A New Look at the Joseph Smith Papyri by Charles M. Larson
13) Mormon Enigma: Emma Hale Smith by Newell and Avery
14) Orrin Porter Rockwell by Benita N Schindler
15) Sidney Rigdon: A Portrait of Religious Excess by Richard S. Van Wagoner
16) Mormon Polygamy: A History by Richard S. Van Wagoner
17) 15 years of Priesthood manuals, teaching and leadership positions in the Church, and gobs of Church books by GAs with schmaltzy titles like, "And thou sayest, cometh unto me."

And there are probably more, but those are the ones that come to mind. What I'm saying is, despite your assumption that I'm just refusing to read something because I'm as closed minded now as when I was a practicing Mormon, the fact is, I'm pretty much done with the subject unless someone's got some breakthrough new information.

Peter_Mary
I understand your point but I did get the feeling that the book was closed before it was opened and a serious pre-judgement took place before the book was even published. But I do think that if this book was published by signature books the posmos would feel a little different about opening the book...but maybe not...what do I know... :)

[why me]

I'd like to add my support to the others who have posted here before you. I have been reading mormon "scholars" for nearly 30 years now and was surprised, when I finally looked at the so called "anti" literature, at all the facts the mormon "scholars" they leave out of their "scholarly" work.

While I will, from time to time, continue to read material generated by the mormon apologists, I have found that there is a very large source of what I would characterize as more fair and balanced information available for even a semi intelligent person like me to read and understand much more easily than the vomit that the apologists try to feed us.

After 30 years of morg brainwashing, the last thing I want right now is more bullshit from the apologists, which is what I suspect this book is. Especially if he fails to cover the fact that JS was a pedifile, etc. IMHO
I understand your point too hamar. I was also quite surprised to learn what I have learned about church history. I wish more conversations would have taken place in priesthood and sunday school about it. But that was not the case...but my attitude toward the church has very little to do with history...I would never expect a perfect history made up of human beings...it is not possible. No perfections in moments of history. My former testimony was never based on history but rather on the BoM. I think that it is safe to say that all religions have a skewed or tainted history...or at least I think they do. Why would the mormon church be any different in that regard. But I am in favor of openness and discussion in the meeting rooms...so much could be gained from open ended dialogue and discussion. And many people would stay regardless and not be shocked by what they had read in the internet. Thanks for the post... :)

[mamawortsh]

It seems to me that from the three who have posted so far no one will read the book. I think that that is unfortunate. I would have hoped that a postmo would be open to different interpretations but it seems that this is not the case so far. What is there to be afraid of? Knowledge is knowledge and certainly one can read the book with a critical mind. Is is because that the author of this book does not follow a postmo line that the book is suddenly out of bounds for postmos to read? What then is the difference between a postmo and a mo? Very little, I presume. I would have hoped for a more open ended response but perhaps this will not be the case. But think of it in this way: By excluding yourself from reading a book about Joseph Smith published by knopf publishers, a postmo is basically adopting the attitude of a mo. Now I could see if desseret was the publisher but this is not the case here.
Now of course, flotsom and I have been here for quite some time reading many articles and visiting many websites which would ground a postmo in postmo thought...that is okay...because it comes with the territory...but a postmo also needs to have their own beliefs questioned by writers who may have a different interpretation of events. Unless of course, a postmo now has the truth and as such, sees that truth as devine and unquestionable. But could a postmo read such a book, as will be published by knopf or random house, without bias intent? Maybe not and if that is the case that would be sad indeed because a postmo would then be locked in a postmo cellar without a light or candle to point the way forward.
Now to get personal...I have enjoyed the articles that I have read or the opinions that have been shared in this forum...they have given me great unpeace but they have also given me great insight into mormon lack of understanding about the human condition. But I would hope that I would never close the door on mormon thought written by scholars that I don't see eye to eye on. I know that the author is a mormon but he is also a scholar and a well-respected historian outside church circles.....lets open minds and not close them... :)

Now listen very carefully, cause I will say this only once:
"Please release me, let me go" and so on... I feel that I have had quite enough after 40 years of indoctrination. Don't you feel that you've had enough? What I want more than anything else now is freedom from the chains that they made me wear all those years. I have been a member of that chain gang since my mother joined the church in the autumn of 1959. I feel now that I need a shrink to wash out all the filth in my brain, but I have no real hope that I'll ever be healthy again.

I feel inside that I will never be able to take a sip of tea or a glass of red wine in my life. How can I, when I know that I will judge myself into deepest Hell just for thinking the very thought of doing a thing like that? How can I ever live a normal life and have a normal boyfriend like everyone else has? Freud was right about that "super-ego" thing, I will all my life be a quasi-Mormon through and through. Now this is scaring the daylights out of me, I am more Mormon than the Mormons. The LDS-church has destroyed all my chances of a normal life and a normal peace of mind. And you ask me to read any more books made by the agents of that bl..... church? Never, I tell you, never!!!

Mama

[hamar]

Now listen very carefully, cause I will say this only once:
"Please release me, let me go" and so on... I feel that I have had quite enough after 40 years of indoctrination. Don't you feel that you've had enough? What I want more than anything else now is freedom from the chains that they made me wear all those years. I have been a member of that chain gang since my mother joined the church in the autumn of 1959. I feel now that I need a shrink to wash out all the filth in my brain, but I have no real hope that I'll ever be healthy again.

I feel inside that I will never be able to take a sip of tea or a glass of red wine in my life. How can I, when I know that I will judge myself into deepest Hell just for thinking the very thought of doing a thing like that? How can I ever live a normal life and have a normal boyfriend like everyone else has? Freud was right about that "super-ego" thing, I will all my life be a quasi-Mormon through and through. Now this is scaring the daylights out of me, I am more Mormon than the Mormons. The LDS-church has destroyed all my chances of a normal life and a normal peace of mind. And you ask me to read any more books made by the agents of that bl..... church? Never, I tell you, never!!!

Mama


Be of good cheer mamaworst, you will fully recover. I hereby bestow and nonpriesthood blessing on you declaring that, in a short time, you will be able to untangle all of the tenacles of the church and lead a normal life.
Seriously, I am new here as well and my journey (with DW) has just begun. However, I've read enough from others, who are much further along the road to recovery, to know that we will untangle all of the tenacles that we keep struggling with at the moment.
You've been under the influence of the great and abominable church longer than DW and I (30 yrs), but I'm confident that you (we) will be able carry on normal lives in the not so distant future.
In the meantime come around and rant with the rest of us and ignore those who don't know what they want or don't have the courage or desire to make a clean break.

[Born Free]

Now listen very carefully, cause I will say this only once:
"Please release me, let me go" and so on... I feel that I have had quite enough after 40 years of indoctrination. Don't you feel that you've had enough? What I want more than anything else now is freedom from the chains that they made me wear all those years. I have been a member of that chain gang since my mother joined the church in the autumn of 1959. I feel now that I need a shrink to wash out all the filth in my brain, but I have no real hope that I'll ever be healthy again.

I feel inside that I will never be able to take a sip of tea or a glass of red wine in my life. How can I, when I know that I will judge myself into deepest Hell just for thinking the very thought of doing a thing like that? How can I ever live a normal life and have a normal boyfriend like everyone else has? Freud was right about that "super-ego" thing, I will all my life be a quasi-Mormon through and through. Now this is scaring the daylights out of me, I am more Mormon than the Mormons. The LDS-church has destroyed all my chances of a normal life and a normal peace of mind. And you ask me to read any more books made by the agents of that bl..... church? Never, I tell you, never!!!

Mama
Mama,

Welcome on board.

I found your remarks interesting, particularly about "wash(ing) out all the filth in my brain".

If you have a good look around, you will find many threads on the issues of depression and the value of professional help in overcoming the impact of the Church. Try:

http://www.postmormon.org/forum_vb/showthread.php?t=165

Now the questions I asked were too multi-issued to be in the same group (it was the first time I used the Poll Tool as I recall) but if you read through that thread you will get some insight.

I also recommend using the Search facility on words like depression and therapy to see the threads where those issues have been canvassed. I think you will get a lot of value from that.

As I recall about 2/3rd of respondents at the time had found therapy valuable. The trap I believe is to stagger along hoping that time alone will heal, whilst failing to appreciate how heavy-duty the number that was done on you was. With good professional assistance, you can fast-track the recover process and realise you were not alone. There are many other victims out there and many are very intelligent people, and many other religions and organisations that do this sort of thing.

One of the guys flicked in the throw away line 'It takes a village to leave Mormonism'. I thought about that, and the more I thought the more I thought it a brilliant and critical realisation.

Mormonism uses 'the village' to keep people chained, so in many ways it is naive to expect that recovery from its invasive efforts can be done alone and unassisted.

I believe that good therapists and an informed circle of peer-support both play important roles in getting clarity around what they did, how they did it, what fears they worked upon, and how powerfully they worked to create a sense of separation from the 'other world' which you are now discovering. This site has many (intelligent and thoughtful) people who have done a lot of thinking, readings, talking to get their healing moving. Draw upon their experience.

"The LDS-church has destroyed all my chances of a normal life and a normal peace of mind." That thinking is a trap, albeit a common one, so don't get caught in it. You can work your way out of this, but do not expect overnight miracles. Start by respecting the extent of the number they do on people, and then engage the informed support you need to recover. Read the stories of others who have recovered. Read of their delight as they gradually opened up, and discovered their own self-trust, the joys of connecting with their own judgement (instead of hanging on the every world of some old fossil - read the Benson story on thet account). (BTW, the day will arrive when you can savour a wine or good coffee in moderation, and you will look back at your current anxiety with laughter! Trust me on that one!)

One step at a time. You will get there. Others have done it. You can too.

But don't be afriad of your anger about what they did. They used your fear of your own wisdom including your anger against you to lock you up.

So stuff 'nice'. Get real.

And I am with you totally on reading more eyewash. I read too much of their pseudo-science and intellectual blather over the years to have any time for more. It all has a smell about it, that after exposure you get pretty good at detecting with just a whiff.

They stole enough years. Don't give them any more.

I started a series of threads on Stages of Post Mormon Experience (in the Stickies at the top of the page) with the specific objectives of us trying to make some sense of what we went through and what ways people recover. In that you will find a series of questions (a template of sorts) against which you can write your story. Many people find that engaging with that helps generate insight. In addition the realisation that you are not alone, and being able to share responses at different stages with others, can be valuable.

I have also developed a diagram of that which we cannot yet post to the site, but if you want a copy of that, send me a PM with your email address as it is a MS Word file that I need to attch which I cannot to a PM.

Daryl

[why me]

Now listen very carefully, cause I will say this only once:
"Please release me, let me go" and so on... I feel that I have had quite enough after 40 years of indoctrination. Don't you feel that you've had enough? What I want more than anything else now is freedom from the chains that they made me wear all those years. I have been a member of that chain gang since my mother joined the church in the autumn of 1959. I feel now that I need a shrink to wash out all the filth in my brain, but I have no real hope that I'll ever be healthy again.

I feel inside that I will never be able to take a sip of tea or a glass of red wine in my life. How can I, when I know that I will judge myself into deepest Hell just for thinking the very thought of doing a thing like that? How can I ever live a normal life and have a normal boyfriend like everyone else has? Freud was right about that "super-ego" thing, I will all my life be a quasi-Mormon through and through. Now this is scaring the daylights out of me, I am more Mormon than the Mormons. The LDS-church has destroyed all my chances of a normal life and a normal peace of mind. And you ask me to read any more books made by the agents of that bl..... church? Never, I tell you, never!!!

Mama
I understand your feeling very well. I have never read more about the church than I have read here in this forum. It has caused my brain to explode in all directions. I had read very little about the church before that...if I read anything at all. It just wasn't in my life in that way. I would much rather prefer to read more life affirming posts about life in general. I would enjoy reading a person's insight toward life and living. This is why I asked some posters in my thread addressing the members to post some life things for us to read. I am a negative guy as it is about life in general without more negative comments to read on a daily basis. I would much rather read nothing about the church and concentrate on life. But of course, people should be negative if they so desire...I am only asking for a balance between life and negativity imo...keep posting on the forum...we need more people here posting... :)

[mamawortsh]

Hello again, I have no ability to shut up...
What I'm looking for here at postmormon among other places, is an antidote to what I have previously been fed with, day in and day since 1959. I want to put my mind to rest, to be able to feel peace. Well, I can't say that it makes me feel more peaceful trying to imagine just how Joseph the poorbutsoonafterabitricher must have looked while "translating" with his head in a hat, but at least it makes me laugh.

In spite of such golden moments, I'm actually not laughing much these days. I have to get rid of the ghosts in my mind. All the silly scriptures I learnt by heart, the thought of my poor 79 year old mother 1600 km away from me, trying to cope with her new knowledge which I had to give her, my previous "friends" who now pass me on the street without "seeing" me or talking to me, the thought of my son who was "used" by our home teacher who also happened to be the Young Men's President (so much for inspired calling)... :Puking

I'm sure you understand how many of us feel. If we look back long enough, we will turn to pillars of salt, but we have to look back for a while, just to correct all the errors of thinking and understanding in the corners of our minds, or we will not be able to heal our common sense...

This is basicly why I don't want to read any more lies. I denied my sweet holy visiting sisters to read anything from the so called "scriptures" the last time they were here, because I really think there are better ways to make use of such exellent paper... :rolleyes:

Mama

[Born Free]

<snip>

All the silly scriptures I learnt by heart, the thought of my poor 79 year old mother 1600 km away from me, trying to cope with her new knowledge which I had to give her, my previous "friends" who now pass me on the street without "seeing" me or talking to me, the thought of my son who was "used" by our home teacher who also happened to be the Young Men's President (so much for inspired calling)... :Puking

<snip>

Mama
Mama,

Let me get totally clear what you are saying here. Is yours another family where someone has been sexually abused by a member of God's 'Holy Priesthood', which that same priesthood failed, with all its magical powers, to detect and weed out?

Daryl

[why me]

Hello again, I have no ability to shut up...
What I'm looking for here at postmormon among other places, is an antidote to what I have previously been fed with, day in and day since 1959. I want to put my mind to rest, to be able to feel peace. Well, I can't say that it makes me feel more peaceful trying to imagine just how Joseph the poorbutsoonafterabitricher must have looked while "translating" with his head in a hat, but at least it makes me laugh.

In spite of such golden moments, I'm actually not laughing much these days. I have to get rid of the ghosts in my mind. All the silly scriptures I learnt by heart, the thought of my poor 79 year old mother 1600 km away from me, trying to cope with her new knowledge which I had to give her, my previous "friends" who now pass me on the street without "seeing" me or talking to me, the thought of my son who was "used" by our home teacher who also happened to be the Young Men's President (so much for inspired calling)... :Puking

I'm sure you understand how many of us feel. If we look back long enough, we will turn to pillars of salt, but we have to look back for a while, just to correct all the errors of thinking and understanding in the corners of our minds, or we will not be able to heal our common sense...

This is basicly why I don't want to read any more lies. I denied my sweet holy visiting sisters to read anything from the so called "scriptures" the last time they were here, because I really think there are better ways to make use of such exellent paper... :rolleyes:

Mama
Interesting post. But I am not sure what I should say. We have discussed in this forum what to do with tbm relatives etc. I kind of feel sorry for your mom if she experienced any shock with the new information that you gave her. But we all have are experiences to weigh over in our minds. I hope that you can be gentle with mom...what benefit is it for her now to hear about all things you have been reading? Well...I don't know maybe there is a benefit if she wishes to know what you have been reading. But this is always a decision that needs to be made by the person involved. You were right I think in your attitude about the past...It will be interesting to read more from you....

[mamawortsh]

Mama,

Let me get totally clear what you are saying here. Is yours another family where someone has been sexually abused by a member of God's 'Holy Priesthood', which that same priesthood failed, with all its magical powers, to detect and weed out?

Daryl

Yes, that's what I'm saying. Happened in a ward in Sweden about 13 years ago. I didn't even know about it until several years later. I called the bishop of that ward, he had "inherited" the ward from his father who had passed away. I told him he had to find out if the other boys in the ward had also been used by the same man, which is highly probable. I remember he was always surrounded by boys from the church, with one or two as his favourites. I think he asked around a bit, but nobody else spoke out and they laid a lid on the whole thing... Didn't want any bad rumours about the church to get around, I guess. According to the law, I had to dig up another witness to have that man arrested so many years after his crimes, but since that wasn't possible, the man is free to continue his favourite hobby, so don't take your children to Sweden, guys!

Mama

[Born Free]

Yes, that's what I'm saying. Happened in a ward in Sweden about 13 years ago. I didn't even know about it until several years later.

<snip>

Mama
Mama,

I am sorry to hear of that. Sadly it is not unheard of behaviour at Post-Mo. There are many here who have themselves been abused, or had family members touched by this ugly behaviour.

I have said here before, I will take the whole Power of the Priethood more seriously when I hear of just one; one case where the Priesthood detected a sexual abuser.

I am still waiting.

Sadly in too many cases, as in yours, the Priesthood played an active or passive role in helping abusers go undetected, unpunished, and untreated.

I hope your son has been able to heal and move on.

Daryl

[papa]

Bushman=mopologist

:Crazy: :Puking

Hey whyme, why don't you read his stuff and return and report?

[why me]

Bushman=mopologist

:Crazy: :Puking

Hey whyme, why don't you read his stuff and return and report?
I intend to read it but I think that the report will be given over at some other site by someone else when it comes out with various sides giving their interpretations, if sides exist.
I believe in getting both angles of a story if possible. And why not? I think that debate is a lively exchange of human interaction. I have no fear in reading it and I certainly don't want to puke on it. When it is published people can skim or scan its contents and then decide if they find something interesting in it. But I understand the feelings of some of the people here...although I don't think keeping a closed mind is the way to go. But what do I know...it is only an 'idea' afterall is said and done. And the other side can still be interesting if you consider the author to be on the other side of the debate. :) Now isn't a smile better than a puke....take care papa....

[Born Free]

<snip>

But what do I know...it is only an 'idea' afterall is said and done. And the other side can still be interesting if you consider the author to be on the other side of the debate. :) Now isn't a smile better than a puke....take care papa....
Why Me,

Has anyone ever given you the feedback that you frequently finish your postings with this sort of self-deprecating language (as bolded).

Can I ask something of you?

If you believe in something, please stand up and speak assertively. Even if I disagree with your position, I think I would have greater ease in relating to you, if you stood firm and stated your case.

As for Papa wanting to have a puke, why do you need to correct him or point out the relative 'niceness' of smiles? If his puking behaviour generates a reaction in you, tell us/him how you feel. That is legitimate and you are entitled to your response.

But I would argue you do not have a right to correct Papa's puke! :cool: I figure we are all big enough to puke when we feel like it, but that we then clean it up for ourselves.

How's that sit with you?

Daryl

[why me]

Why Me,

Has anyone ever given you the feedback that you frequently finish your postings with this sort of self-deprecating language (as bolded).

Can I ask something of you?

If you believe in something, please stand up and speak assertively. Even if I disagree with your position, I think I would have greater ease in relating to you, if you stood firm and stated your case.

As for Papa wanting to have a puke, why do you need to correct him or point out the relative 'niceness' of smiles? If his puking behaviour generates a reaction in you, tell us/him how you feel. That is legitimate and you are entitled to your response.

But I would argue you do not have a right to correct Papa's puke! :cool: I figure we are all big enough to puke when we feel like it, but that we then clean it up for ourselves.

How's that sit with you?

Daryl
You are right daryl..I will try to remember that. But I still remember the accusations earlier that I was 'shoulding' too much etc that I experienced in the past from some posters. But I will try not to include those expressions you mentioned. But it will take some practice...but it is also true that I am only expressing opinions and when all is said and done...what do I really know about it all? But I do need to be more assertive in my posts..and the puking thing with papa was just in jest...but when I am walking down the street I would rather see people smiling than puking....and I am not sure if I had to clean up his puke when I viewed it on the thread or if he will clean up his puke later....usually when someone pukes, it is usually someone else who cleans up the puke when it is done outside the home but that would be a great debate...who cleans the puke (free thinker, silverfox?)...now daryl don't get to serious with this post...I am only trying to have a good time now (I do have a crazy sense of humor)...take care... :Puking Don't worry I will clean that up later... :)

[papa]

I must have my puke! I will fight for my right to puke!

But I will puke in my own porcelain, like a civilized sort... :p

[Born Free]

You are right daryl..I will try to remember that. But I still remember the accusations earlier that I was 'shoulding' too much etc that I experienced in the past from some posters. But I will try not to include those expressions you mentioned. But it will take some practice...but it is also true that I am only expressing opinions and when all is said and done...what do I really know about it all? But I do need to be more assertive in my posts..and the puking thing with papa was just in jest...but when I am walking down the street I would rather see people smiling than puking....and I am not sure if I had to clean up his puke when I viewed it on the thread or if he will clean up his puke later....usually when someone pukes, it is usually someone else who cleans up the puke when it is done outside the home but that would be a great debate...who cleans the puke (free thinker, silverfox?)...now daryl don't get to serious with this post...I am only trying to have a good time now (I do have a crazy sense of humor)...take care... :Puking Don't worry I will clean that up later... :)

Why Me,

As I have observed interactions over the last few weeks, I have come to suspect that a deep conflict exists between what many Post-Mos come to this site for, and what you appear to need from it.

Most of us come here to further a process of healing, and expand our growth as Post-Mormon human beings. I observe few people here who come with a specific and exclusive objective to 'puke' over/on the Church. There are many otehr places they can go where that is even encouraged. That said, I believe many here are still trying to develop alternative responses to a complusive gag-reflex when certain aspects of Mormonism are discussed.

From what I see of your interactions, this is my working hypothisis of your need as you approach the site (and I reserve the right to be way off the mark!) based upon what I see animates you, what conflicts you, and your stated ideal.

With your daughters living with their mother, and actively engaged in Mormonism, and you exerting the marginal influence that separated Dads do in their childrens lives, when anyone here discusses deficiencies of or abuses within Mormonism, it appears to have the effect of raising your anxiety about your daughters safety and medium to long-term happiness.

From working with hundreds of separated Dads, I know more than most how much, in contrast with common perception, separated Dads feel for their children, in many cases at an acute level. Frequently only mothers or grandparents who have been excluded from their childrens/grand-childrens lives can appreciate that.

So, as I see it, what is predominately healthy processing regarding the Church for most of us, generates acute discomfort and possibly stronger, for you. Now I don't see that anyone sets out to make you hurt. Indeed, I observe that most people empathise with your predicament and try to exercise care with you.

But at the end of the day, if I am close to right, an inherent conflict lies at the heart of what most of us want and need from Post-Mo, and what you appear to need in the specific situation of being a post-separation Dad. That looks as if at an emotional level, you fear our puking is on your daughters, which of course could not be further from my mind, I can tell you.

How does that take look from your perspective?

I would be most interested to see if you agree, if you have seen such a tension, and if so, how that might be resolved.

Daryl

PS: On the 'shoulding' vs assertiveness issue, slowing or stopping telling others how it is, how they should behave, think, feel, which 'ism' is the best, etc., is completely different to stating what your opinion is, how you perceive events, what you think/feel is right for you.

The latter is indisputable - that is you, your experience, your take on life, all of which is absolutely your right as a human being. The former steps across a line and starts to tell others how they should interact with the world, think, feel etc., which I think we would both agree we have no right to do.

Now just in case you think what I have said in the body of this post makes a nonsence of what I have said in this PS, I woudl argue that is not the case. If you want to tease out some clarification on that, I am happy to engage.

[why me]

Why Me,

As I have observed interactions over the last few weeks, I have come to suspect that a deep conflict exists between what many Post-Mos come to this site for, and what you appear to need from it.

Most of us come here to further a process of healing, and expand our growth as Post-Mormon human beings. I observe few people here who come with a specific and exclusive objective to 'puke' over/on the Church. There are many otehr places they can go where that is even encouraged. That said, I believe many here are still trying to develop alternative responses to a complusive gag-reflex when certain aspects of Mormonism are discussed.

From what I see of your interactions, this is my working hypothisis of your need as you approach the site (and I reserve the right to be way off the mark!) based upon what I see animates you, what conflicts you, and your stated ideal.

With your daughters living with their mother, and actively engaged in Mormonism, and you exerting the marginal influence that separated Dads do in their childrens lives, when anyone here discusses deficiencies of or abuses within Mormonism, it appears to have the effect of raising your anxiety about your daughters safety and medium to long-term happiness.

From working with hundreds of separated Dads, I know more than most how much, in contrast with common perception, separated Dads feel for their children, in many cases at an acute level. Frequently only mothers or grandparents who have been excluded from their childrens/grand-childrens lives can appreciate that.

So, as I see it, what is predominately healthy processing regarding the Church for most of us, generates acute discomfort and possibly stronger, for you. Now I don't see that anyone sets out to make you hurt. Indeed, I observe that most people empathise with your predicament and try to exercise care with you.

But at the end of the day, if I am close to right, an inherent conflict lies at the heart of what most of us want and need from Post-Mo, and what you appear to need in the specific situation of being a post-separation Dad. That looks as if at an emotional level, you fear our puking is on your daughters, which of course could not be further from my mind, I can tell you.

How does that take look from your perspective?

I would be most interested to see if you agree, if you have seen such a tension, and if so, how that might be resolved.

Daryl

PS: On the 'shoulding' vs assertiveness issue, slowing or stopping telling others how it is, how they should behave, think, feel, which 'ism' is the best, etc., is completely different to stating what your opinion is, how you perceive events, what you think/feel is right for you.

The latter is indisputable - that is you, your experience, your take on life, all of which is absolutely your right as a human being. The former steps across a line and starts to tell others how they should interact with the world, think, feel etc., which I think we would both agree we have no right to do.

Now just in case you think what I have said in the body of this post makes a nonsence of what I have said in this PS, I woudl argue that is not the case. If you want to tease out some clarification on that, I am happy to engage.
Well..daryl I think that you have touched on something here that is very interesting and I will need to digest it. But I cannot find cause for disagreement. But the puking thing was more in jest this time. I meant nothing by it except for papa to have a good smiling day. I think that in a PM to you I mentioned the negativity that I have felt here on the posts but at this moment I don't feel that people are only engaged in stressing the negative after negative. I don't mind the negatives only when they take over the board. Now we have good well balanced posts too which I can feel good to take part in. I just wanted some balance in the posts and read what postmo's are doing in real life. But now...people are writing some thoughtful posts about life...and I appreciate that very much. Yes...I do have fear for my daughters...as I said to you I don't want them to become bitter in the future...if they wish to leave the church I just want them to have a good and happy life regardless of faith or lack of faith. And I am trying to learn from the posts how to avoid bitterness from taking root in my daughters hearts. I still go with my moderation idea. I think many people feel bitter because they gave a great deal of life activity to the church only to be disappointed. Maybe moderation and balance is the key to avoid bitterness.
I don't deny anyone the right to puke...it can be a healthy expression of relief...I was just having some fun with papa...thanks born free for engaging me.... :)

I think the new book should be interstesting...oppps sorry born free but I needed to say something to stick to the orginal intent of the thread... :D