I think I have a problem here....

[cactus jack]

Let's get a few things cleared up. Quite frankly I hate the LDS. With a passion. I won't go so far as to really hurt anyone (though a few months I was tempted), but when i talk about hatred, I think only a few of you can truly understand that.

Now with that said, my problem is when I'm sitting here on my computer, and the next thing I know I'm on the phone with the branch president and talking about considering returning.

I ain't joking.

And THAT scares me.

I have no idea how it is I ended up doing that. I know the church is a fraud, I know the church is not true, and I know that the last thing I want to do is go back to the enemy.

THIS is what I don't understand. I ain't schitziod anything like that. But apparently there's some very wrong here.

Help!

[why me]

Let's get a few things cleared up. Quite frankly I hate the LDS. With a passion. I won't go so far as to really hurt anyone (though a few months I was tempted), but when i talk about hatred, I think only a few of you can truly understand that.

Now with that said, my problem is when I'm sitting here on my computer, and the next thing I know I'm on the phone with the branch president and talking about considering returning.

I ain't joking.

And THAT scares me.

I have no idea how it is I ended up doing that. I know the church is a fraud, I know the church is not true, and I know that the last thing I want to do is go back to the enemy.

THIS is what I don't understand. I ain't schitziod anything like that. But apparently there's some very wrong here.

Help!
Cactus my friend, you will need to answer the question: why did you pick up the phone? I would like to know your answer or reason to that question. There must be some things going on in your life that you do not like at the moment...but I am no expert in this subject...but the answer to my question might be a good question for you to answer for your own self...take care out there... :)

Opps...I just read hamar's post and realized that you may not have picked up the phone...hamar does have a good point then...who made the contact...?

[hamar]

Let's get a few things cleared up. Quite frankly I hate the LDS. With a passion. I won't go so far as to really hurt anyone (though a few months I was tempted), but when i talk about hatred, I think only a few of you can truly understand that.

Now with that said, my problem is when I'm sitting here on my computer, and the next thing I know I'm on the phone with the branch president and talking about considering returning.

I ain't joking.

And THAT scares me.

I have no idea how it is I ended up doing that. I know the church is a fraud, I know the church is not true, and I know that the last thing I want to do is go back to the enemy.

THIS is what I don't understand. I ain't schitziod anything like that. But apparently there's some very wrong here.

Help!


Being very new to the road to wellness, you scare me Jack. Please tell me the BP initiated the call and we can go from there.

[peter_mary]

Cactus,

Here's how I react to what you're saying.

When we began our journey out of the Church, we did it fearlessly, believing that our study of the Church would vindicate the truth. We honestly launched our review of Church history with the assumption that in so doing, our faith would be strengthened. If the Church had taught us one thing, it was that Truth stands on it's own merits, and you should never be afraid to look at it.

Well, the rest is history, of course...and the Church was correct. The Truth stands on it's own, and we walked away as a result. :duh

But now there's Cactus Jack, who seems to be torn between two worlds. Well, my friend, it seems to me that the same holds true for you...don't be afraid of the truth. Go in search for it. If you hate Mormons/Mormonism, what is that about? Hatred is a pretty strong emotion, and suggests to me that there are actually some unresolved issues between you and the Church. So don't be afraid to talk to the Branch President. Don't be afraid to check out the Church again. Don't be afraid to attempt to resolve the emotional angst that fuels the hatred. Find out what all that's about!

And most importantly, don't be afraid of the journey. There's really nothing to be afraid of here. What's the worst thing that could happen? Two possible "worst case scenarios" that come to my mind are:

a) You rediscover why you left the Church, and you walk away again for good, more resolved than ever, and you are happy; or

b) You rediscover why you joined the Church, and you reconnect with a community of fellow believers in a supportive, positive manner and you are happy.

I can't really see where you run the risk of having your toenails removed with pliers, your eyeballs dug from their sockets, or an untimely death at the hands of two missionaries. :rolleyes:

If there's a pull on your spirit here, Cactus, check it out. Find out what the draw is about. There's an experience here waiting to happen. An adventure waiting to be had, and learning and growing waiting for you to simply shed the fear and face your life. Step into this with your eyes wide open, your mind flung wide, and your soul searching for truth.

So what's the fear about, mi amigo?

Peter_Mary

[dogzilla]

Here's another thought, C.J. (There's a bar in town called "Cactus Jack's" and it's known as CJ's around here... force of habit. Sorry if you don't like that.)

I don't think hate is the opposite of love. I think the opposite of love is indifference. So, the fact that your hatred for the church burns with the fire of 1,000 suns suggests to me that you still care. You're angry about that, but you still care, nevertheless. This is why you found yourself engaging in a conversation.

Aside from that, I echo what P_M said. Oh, and here's a quote from Frank Herbert regarding fear (from Dune):

I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past, I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone, there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.
I will face my fear.

[wescape]

I totally agree with what peter-mary and dogzilla have said in response. May the force be with you, cactus jack. :)

Wes

[why me]

Cactus,

Here's how I react to what you're saying.

When we began our journey out of the Church, we did it fearlessly, believing that our study of the Church would vindicate the truth. We honestly launched our review of Church history with the assumption that in so doing, our faith would be strengthened. If the Church had taught us one thing, it was that Truth stands on it's own merits, and you should never be afraid to look at it.

Well, the rest is history, of course...and the Church was correct. The Truth stands on it's own, and we walked away as a result. :duh

But now there's Cactus Jack, who seems to be torn between two worlds. Well, my friend, it seems to me that the same holds true for you...don't be afraid of the truth. Go in search for it. If you hate Mormons/Mormonism, what is that about? Hatred is a pretty strong emotion, and suggests to me that there are actually some unresolved issues between you and the Church. So don't be afraid to talk to the Branch President. Don't be afraid to check out the Church again. Don't be afraid to attempt to resolve the emotional angst that fuels the hatred. Find out what all that's about!

And most importantly, don't be afraid of the journey. There's really nothing to be afraid of here. What's the worst thing that could happen? Two possible "worst case scenarios" that come to my mind are:

a) You rediscover why you left the Church, and you walk away again for good, more resolved than ever, and you are happy; or

b) You rediscover why you joined the Church, and you reconnect with a community of fellow believers in a supportive, positive manner and you are happy.

I can't really see where you run the risk of having your toenails removed with pliers, your eyeballs dug from their sockets, or an untimely death at the hands of two missionaries. :rolleyes:

If there's a pull on your spirit here, Cactus, check it out. Find out what the draw is about. There's an experience here waiting to happen. An adventure waiting to be had, and learning and growing waiting for you to simply shed the fear and face your life. Step into this with your eyes wide open, your mind flung wide, and your soul searching for truth.

So what's the fear about, mi amigo?

Peter_Mary
Wow...I love your post P-M. Your post was all about life and life is the most important possession that we now have. I am soooo glad that you took the position that you did....the position was centered in something human with a very caring intent. Thanks...I hope that cactus is listening.... :)

[helemon]

Help!

I think you miss the social interaction of the church. The Branch President is probably a decent sort of fellow. It was probably a pleasant conversation. You probably said yes to be polite.

But don't be too hard on yourself. You could take the invitation as a chance to share your new found questions and knowledge with others in the branch during Sunday School and Priesthood! Do that enough times and I am sure the BP will not be asking you to return. :D

[silverfox]

I think you miss the social interaction of the church. The Branch President is probably a decent sort of fellow. It was probably a pleasant conversation. You probably said yes to be polite.

But don't be too hard on yourself. You could take the invitation as a chance to share your new found questions and knowledge with others in the branch during Sunday School and Priesthood! Do that enough times and I am sure the BP will not be asking you to return. :D

I agree with this. You know, still when we get calls from new leaders for my daughter to invite her to activities, etc I always end up being polite and saying, "maybe next time". When in reality I want them to stop calling. Grrrrr!

I react this way because 1. I don't fault them for doing the job they are programmed to do. 2. I don't want to offend them-I know most of them and like them. 3. I don't want my daughter being "labeled".

Now if the stake prez were to call, though, I would react differently. But only because I don't know him. If I knew him I would in a teasing humorous way say, "Now you know I'm not interested in having any thing more to do with the church but hey, next time your wife makes cookies, you know where I live." I don't know our current stake prez so I would react more bluntly - "No, thanks. I am not and never will be interested in returning"

We have all been in members' shoes once. I also think we got so used to saying what we were SUPPOSED to say and programmed to say that it still comes natural.

You will be okay. You will do what is in your heart.

[Born Free]

Let's get a few things cleared up. Quite frankly I hate the LDS. With a passion. I won't go so far as to really hurt anyone (though a few months I was tempted), but when i talk about hatred, I think only a few of you can truly understand that.

Now with that said, my problem is when I'm sitting here on my computer, and the next thing I know I'm on the phone with the branch president and talking about considering returning.

I ain't joking.

And THAT scares me.

I have no idea how it is I ended up doing that. I know the church is a fraud, I know the church is not true, and I know that the last thing I want to do is go back to the enemy.

THIS is what I don't understand. I ain't schitziod anything like that. But apparently there's some very wrong here.

Help!
Cactus Jack,

How good are your social support networks?

I can't remember who on this site used the expression 'It takes a village to leave Mormonism'. I think it is a profound remark.

Mormonism uses 'the Village' to lock people in, to create a sense of community, and if community is a priority value for you (as it is for most human beings) and you have not found a viable replacement, then that will leave a massive hole.

Is it the sense of community you are missing?

Daryl

[cactus jack]

Sorry that I was away for a little bit. I have been fighting with myself over this issue for sometime. Then that night I posted, I don't know why, but I just called the branch president and set up a meeting. No, I don't know why. Not exacly, anyhow.

Why Me, Yeah I have a lot going on in my life. It's boring, "same s**t, different day" kind of stuff, but a lot of it. Do I like what's going on? not really, but it's not any different than before. Life could always be better! But you and I both know from our experiences, life can certainly be far far worse.

Hamar, man this is humiliating, I initiaited the contact this time. :(

Peter_Mary, until you brought that up I hadn't given that much thought. But when I think of it, it does scare me even more.

I say I hate mormons, and I do! With a passion! But then when I ask myself why (and I had a really hard time thinking about that), I say it's because of what they did to me. Not the church itself, but the people. I look at the bad versus the good, and honestly, I don't see that many bad people. I knew a lot of really good people there. But the bad people take presidence? Indeed they have. Not them, but what they did. As much as I try to say that I forgive them for their sins against me, I know I'm lying. Because in my heart I still wish them 1,000 times more anguish and difficulty than what they gave me and my family. Is that right? No, it's a terrible sin. But I can't take that sin and just wash it away. Such as you cannot take a cow and simply wash away it's brand. It's there and it ain't going to go away.

Dogzilla no worries. I think I remember that nick from the last time I was in SLC with my then-wife now-ex. As much as I hate what happened there in the LDS, I still feel regret for not accomplishing more. I remember back when I had the fire burning strong in my heart. I would go down to the pizzaria and tried talking people into giving the church a look. I always made it clear when I did the invites "just remember, this is America, and if you don't like what yousee, you can always leave at your own freewill. No one is forcing you to come or to stay. But it's always worth a look!" Well, not word for word but pretty close to it. Man, I remember how much I loved the church. But each and every time I was "steped on" but bishopric or stake leadership, I think that was a little hammer, chipping away at my faith. Letting the errs of others influence my feelings. Kinda hard not too, since they hold rank in the church. If a bishop does or says something that ain't right, is it just him or the church that did it? Him, of course. After all, he IS representing them, isn't he?

BTW, I prefer Hunter Thompson's quote over Frank Herbert's (Hunter had far more class!)....

Helemon, I could always recite the TLC's "Stop Worshipping the Church" testimony during the Faith and Testicles meeting. What amazes me is when I read that testimony, it felt good. *I* felt good. Because I agree with all of it. Except for one piece about praying to Adam/God. I have always been of the beleive that if you pray, you pray to Jesus becase before you get to God you gotta go through Jesus. Chain of command thing. A private doesn't ask the colonel for a R&R ticket. He goes to his sgt.

Born Free, I hadn't thought of that. Social networks? Ummm, what social networks? Even when I was in the LDS I wasn't very social. Now, if I get bored, I got a buddy on the other side of town that has me over for whatever. We usually sit and watch several hoursof "Las and Order" and then debate over stuff like "that may be the law there but how would that be handled here" to "that's illegal! That cop can't do that" to our favorite "Who's got a better body" The young skinny blond prosecutor or Mariska Haggatay?" :eek: :duh

I never have been really big into social scenes. Get me in a room with a few people and I'll do just fine. Put me in a room with 30-40 people and I want out. Fast! make that several hundred people, and I'm already going psychotic. "GET ME OUTTA HERE!!!!!!"

Back when I was active in the church, I stayed away from social gatherings as much as I could. Small stuff was ok. But I was irritated by the nosy old bags nearly everytime we'd meet.

As for community, same thing. I can tolerate it, but I prefer being able to leave when I feel like it. And I remember when I had problems with the church, I wanted out. And the stake presidency refused. How often have you heard of that? Well, it happened. And that goes back to my anger and hatred of the church. Should I blame the church for the abuse I experienced or should I hate the church for giving the abusers the rank and opportunity to abuse me and others? Know what I mean?

[why me]

Sorry that I was away for a little bit. I have been fighting with myself over this issue for sometime. Then that night I posted, I don't know why, but I just called the branch president and set up a meeting. No, I don't know why. Not exacly, anyhow.

Why Me, Yeah I have a lot going on in my life. It's boring, "same s**t, different day" kind of stuff, but a lot of it. Do I like what's going on? not really, but it's not any different than before. Life could always be better! But you and I both know from our experiences, life can certainly be far far worse.

Hamar, man this is humiliating, I initiaited the contact this time. :(

Peter_Mary, until you brought that up I hadn't given that much thought. But when I think of it, it does scare me even more.

I say I hate mormons, and I do! With a passion! But then when I ask myself why (and I had a really hard time thinking about that), I say it's because of what they did to me. Not the church itself, but the people. I look at the bad versus the good, and honestly, I don't see that many bad people. I knew a lot of really good people there. But the bad people take presidence? Indeed they have. Not them, but what they did. As much as I try to say that I forgive them for their sins against me, I know I'm lying. Because in my heart I still wish them 1,000 times more anguish and difficulty than what they gave me and my family. Is that right? No, it's a terrible sin. But I can't take that sin and just wash it away. Such as you cannot take a cow and simply wash away it's brand. It's there and it ain't going to go away.

Dogzilla no worries. I think I remember that nick from the last time I was in SLC with my then-wife now-ex. As much as I hate what happened there in the LDS, I still feel regret for not accomplishing more. I remember back when I had the fire burning strong in my heart. I would go down to the pizzaria and tried talking people into giving the church a look. I always made it clear when I did the invites "just remember, this is America, and if you don't like what yousee, you can always leave at your own freewill. No one is forcing you to come or to stay. But it's always worth a look!" Well, not word for word but pretty close to it. Man, I remember how much I loved the church. But each and every time I was "steped on" but bishopric or stake leadership, I think that was a little hammer, chipping away at my faith. Letting the errs of others influence my feelings. Kinda hard not too, since they hold rank in the church. If a bishop does or says something that ain't right, is it just him or the church that did it? Him, of course. After all, he IS representing them, isn't he?

BTW, I prefer Hunter Thompson's quote over Frank Herbert's (Hunter had far more class!)....

Helemon, I could always recite the TLC's "Stop Worshipping the Church" testimony during the Faith and Testicles meeting. What amazes me is when I read that testimony, it felt good. *I* felt good. Because I agree with all of it. Except for one piece about praying to Adam/God. I have always been of the beleive that if you pray, you pray to Jesus becase before you get to God you gotta go through Jesus. Chain of command thing. A private doesn't ask the colonel for a R&R ticket. He goes to his sgt.

Born Free, I hadn't thought of that. Social networks? Ummm, what social networks? Even when I was in the LDS I wasn't very social. Now, if I get bored, I got a buddy on the other side of town that has me over for whatever. We usually sit and watch several hoursof "Las and Order" and then debate over stuff like "that may be the law there but how would that be handled here" to "that's illegal! That cop can't do that" to our favorite "Who's got a better body" The young skinny blond prosecutor or Mariska Haggatay?" :eek: :duh

I never have been really big into social scenes. Get me in a room with a few people and I'll do just fine. Put me in a room with 30-40 people and I want out. Fast! make that several hundred people, and I'm already going psychotic. "GET ME OUTTA HERE!!!!!!"

Back when I was active in the church, I stayed away from social gatherings as much as I could. Small stuff was ok. But I was irritated by the nosy old bags nearly everytime we'd meet.

As for community, same thing. I can tolerate it, but I prefer being able to leave when I feel like it. And I remember when I had problems with the church, I wanted out. And the stake presidency refused. How often have you heard of that? Well, it happened. And that goes back to my anger and hatred of the church. Should I blame the church for the abuse I experienced or should I hate the church for giving the abusers the rank and opportunity to abuse me and others? Know what I mean?
Yea...cactus you and I have had our experiences. It is interesting that you have picked that up from my posts on these threads. Maybe we are in some way in the same boat. But you know something cactus jack the reponses that you got were very kind and considerate. No one became anti-church in their posts...everyone wanted to support you in the choices that you may make and that was a great thing. All posters showed 'life' to you and not 'unlife' in other words they seemed to care. I don't know cactus...at times I have wished the brain was just a sponge...it can be taken out of the head and washed clean with cold sparkling spring water and then be placed back into the socket pure and fresh as a wild spring flower...and I can feel young and good again..all the soot and grim washed into the earth...mixing with nature's soils....but by this I mean all the dirt that life can put into the brain sponge...maybe you have the same feeling.... Well...the sun is shining today...hopefully it is shining in your end of the woods... :)

[cactus jack]

Yes, the folks here at postmormon have been great, and I greatly appreciate their input and support. I hope they know how much that means tome. Because it really does mean a lot.

Yeah, we've been through a lot. And someday I'm sure you'll be more comfortable with a very important decision in your life that is waiting for you. Maybe you'll stay and maybe you'll go. Me, I wanted out in desparation. Years of trying to get out and years of being told ne? No other reason would be good enough for me to theraten a stake president with bodily harm. Especially a decent good man like Ed.

Don't make the same mistake. Make sure you are comfortable with the choice before you take it. I know I likely will not return, but who knows.

[miss taken]

Yes, the folks here at postmormon have been great, and I greatly appreciate their input and support. I hope they know how much that means tome. Because it really does mean a lot.

Yeah, we've been through a lot. And someday I'm sure you'll be more comfortable with a very important decision in your life that is waiting for you. Maybe you'll stay and maybe you'll go. Me, I wanted out in desparation. Years of trying to get out and years of being told ne? No other reason would be good enough for me to theraten a stake president with bodily harm. Especially a decent good man like Ed.

Don't make the same mistake. Make sure you are comfortable with the choice before you take it. I know I likely will not return, but who knows.


Hey Cactus Jack, I knew your thread would draw some fantastic responses. I'll second PeterMary and Dogzilla too!

Can I share something with you...
For a while, I attended a Church of England. I was actually greatly surprised. They have a kind of high church of England service (similar to Catholic), very ritualistic, all written down, lots of set prayers and so forth (not a bad thing), then they have a more informal meeting every other week. Very similar to LDS services, scarily so. I can honestly say that as I sat there I felt good. Really good. Some would call it the 'spirit'. I am tempted to do so myself.

It greatly surprised me. Infact it floored me. Here I was, sitting in one of those 'great and abominable churches' and I was experiencing an overwhelming feeling of peace and warmth.

It was great.

It taught me a valuable lesson.

I didn't return to the C of E (because there are parts that I certainly cannot agree on, particularly as it applies to the view that infants are born in sin), but I understood that those warm feelings that we get are universal, when someone is saying something good and positive, which is what the vicar was doing at the time.

Mary

[cactus jack]

Miss Taken I have been leaning towards a few religions, and I can't say it bothers me the chources I amlooking at, but the similarity is amazing. The first is the United Methodist. I am amazed how much in common it has with the LDS. And the preacher there tells me she doesn't understand because she's been told it's so different. Well, as long as I was LDS, I'd say it's got a lot in common.

UMC ain't the only one. I won't mention the other one because the last time I so much as mentioned the name I think I was nearly beheaded by some of the memebers here!

[why me]

Miss Taken I have been leaning towards a few religions, and I can't say it bothers me the chources I amlooking at, but the similarity is amazing. The first is the United Methodist. I am amazed how much in common it has with the LDS. And the preacher there tells me she doesn't understand because she's been told it's so different. Well, as long as I was LDS, I'd say it's got a lot in common.

UMC ain't the only one. I won't mention the other one because the last time I so much as mentioned the name I think I was nearly beheaded by some of the memebers here!
Almost don't count....put your head back on and tell us the name of the church...our swords are out and ready to lop it off if we missed the first time... :D

[cactus jack]

Ok, here's a list of churches I'm looking at and why (just give me a moment to get my body armor on)....

1. United Methodist Church. Can't really place it, except that when I went to church at a Methodist church while on vacation a year ago, that was the warmest church I had ever been too. The people were very accepting of new people, weren’t nosy, weren’t thinking that they are second to Jesus. I went to a couple other UMCs and the people there were just as decent.

2. LDS. As much as I want to believe that the LDS is a fraud, it keeps tugging at me. Is it? Is it not?
- Honestly, I cannot blame the church for the screw ups of the few. Now explaining how there's so many dirt bags per capita in comparison to other churches still baffles me.
- And the true lack of respect for the First Presidency absolutely amazes me. So many bishops, branch presidents and stake presidents that feel they have the right to make changes in the standards and protocols the First Presidency has brought forth because they feel they know what's best, the disrespect that shows for the First Presidency and the members and God, is absolutely nauseating.
- Then the bigotry and ignorance the members have towards their fellow members. EVERY ward or branch I went to, I was always confronted by the older female members about what I did for work. I tell them (no biggie), but they don't understand. So they ask about my money and where it comes from. This always came up in the first two to three weeks of being there. Always and every branch or ward. I have NEVER found that in other churches. Sure those questions may come up, but literally 1/10 as much. And when it did, it's nearly three or four MONTHS after I start going there.
- Then the disrespect the First Presidency has for members, is just as bad. When member bring an issue forth to their branch president/bishop, it's not resolved. So they go to their stake president, and it's still not resolved, so then they go to a fella (I think it's District Leadership, but I don't recall, anything more than it's above the SP and below the SLC HQ) and it's still not resolved. Go to the SLC HQ, address it to the FP, and all they do is put it in the files somewhere. IOW it doesn't matter what happens, keep your mouth shut.

3. TLC. <insert sound of machete slicing my head off>

I must confess that I have always been confused by the actions of the LDS in regards to changes that have been made. Like accenting blacks into the priesthood. Am I a racist? For saying that, no. Other reasons, perhaps. I have spoken with several of the guys in TLC and they have educated me on what the TLC is. Is it like the bunch in Colorado City? I don't think so. Tom Green? Nope. What about the Kingston's? Not hardly. Yes, they are into a lot of the older stuff the LDS was long ago. But I understand why. And even in the regular Christian world, I practice some of the older teachings. Like what foods you can or cannot eat. I despise pork. Has cost me a few jobs (not difficult to wear gloves handling the sausage in a restaurant kitchen, just the managers didn't approve of it), and even got me labeled as a far worse racist than I really am. We'll have to save the racism discussion for another time.
I don't eat pork and believe that God said abstain from it for a good reason. No, I'm not perfect, and I even eat shrimp, lobster and crab. (Oh gawd I love lobster and crab! MMMM mmmm mmmmm mmm mmmmmmmm!)

But then there's the polygamy issue. I have mentioned that here before and some people get absolutely freaked out over it. Well, I think they can't see the forest because of the trees.

The polygamy issue has been mixed in with rape, spousal abuse and child molestation so much that people can't tell the difference. I'm sorry that happened to them, but honestly, there is a difference. There are Baptists and Catholics that have molested kids, but they weren't into polygamy. We all know that there's a lot of spousal abuse out there everywhere you go. But is it all because of polygamy? No. It's only an excuse by the authorities so they can invade people's homes and destroy their lives and families.

So, do *I* support polygamy? No. But I don't fight it either. I feel whatever is good for you is good for you. I'm happy for you. If my neighbor decides to have three wives, that's fine with me. *I* ain't living with him. And Lord knows that if all three gang up on him, I sure ain't gonna get involved! :eek:

But there are the polygamous families I have met years back that got me interested in this originally. There's three types- the good, the bad and the ugly.
1. The good ones I met (Grand & Emery counties, UT & Montrose county CO) they were self-sufficient & didn't ask the government for help, no molesting (that I could see) that was going on, everyone was happy and content and they left the government alone, with exception for the normal citizen interaction like writing letters, being active in coalitions and groups, stuff like that. They contributed to their communities, and was respected by their neighbors.
2. The bad one I met (Duchesne county UT) the family was doing everything they could to get money from the LDS they felt the LDS owed them and they were under investigation for child abuse and welfare fraud (One man and seven wives I think). Their house was a dump (I have lived in some nasty places and that place would be among the worst if I lived there), and they did nothing to contribute to the community. Their neighbors looked down on them. And rightfully so, I feel.
3. The ugly. Kingstons. The bunch in Colorado City AZ. Oh, and Tom Green. Never met them and I sure as hell don't plan on it, either! These guys are as ugly as they can get. Children have been molested. Girls forced into marriages they want nothing to do with. Families broke up so older men can take the wives. And in the Kingston case when a young girl was taken out into the north Salt Lake desert and beaten and left in nothing but her underwear by her father because she wouldn't marry her uncle (the Kingston clan, IIRC).

For the most part, I support the older teachings. I feel that the church erred when it made decisions NOT based on Good's word or choice, but the choices of the mortal leaders. Choices like changing the priesthood and accepting blacks. AFAIC a black is as good as an anglo. But if the word of God says no, then it's no. And the LDS changed that part of the church not for God's word, but instead out of concern for BYU when they were boycotted by several universities down south because of that rule. Pretty bad, huh? God didn't decide it was the right time, the church did. God won't wait for a school to be boycotted. He'll make the choice when He feels it the right time and none other.


Ok Why Me. You wanted it, you got it. Which corner of the room do I look for my head in? ;)

[pokatator]

Hijack, you're in my prayers, sorry that things are not easy for you, they were not easy for me when I was getting out. I take real caution in giving advice, so I am going to explain a simple concept that helped me when I was going thru a divorse and leaving the church at the same time.

What is the opposite of "love"?


Most people will immediately state, "hate".


It was explained to me that this is not the true opposite of love. When I hated (and I will use my ex-wife as an example rather than the church) my ex-wife, I was suffering from the loss, from the loss of emotions, of time invested, of money, of intimancy, of experience, of family ties, from fear of the unknown, loss of our children's love, fear of change, and many, many more thoughts, emotions, bonds and ties that would be impossible to list them all. None of this truly went away until I actually reached or grew to the level of the opposite of love.

The opposite of love is "indifference", under the bond of hate you are still suffering under the loss, tied to the subject, you have a vested interest in the subject. But under indifference you have none of this, you just plain don't give a damn about the subject. You don''t care one way or the other.

When I was in the "hate" mode with my ex, I was hurt easily, I was willing to fight with her, emotions raw and sore. Operating under "indifference" I had no reason to get hurt, or fight with her, and my emotions healed and became calused to the situation. Even when we fought over things in the hate mode in the back of her mind she was thinking, something like, "he still cares, he cares enough to battle with me". It was like a tug-of-war, it takes two to play, you try to change the other by pulling on the rope, it doesn't work, you're still playing the game. Under indifference you change the other side by dropping the rope, that's the only way to change the game and change the other side is to quit buying into the game. Its the only way to change the other side, is to change yourself by dropping the rope.

My life got about 4000% better when I entered the indifference stage. Now getting there is not easy, but understanding this concept really helped me to speed up the process. I really hope the best for you Jack, bless you.

Randy

[dogzilla]

Randy, see post #5.

Love,
Chopped Liver

[why me]

Cactus, I don't think that I will lop your head off. I like honesty in a post and your post was certainly honest. I think the other members will not lop your head off either. I think you will get some understanding here. My head gets lopped off on occasion in this forum but I usually put it back on and begin again. Wait...okay...now my head is on strait...sometimes it takes some practice but I am working on it. Strange cactus, I don't think that you actually have the feeling of hate inside you...maybe I would call it something else. You don't seem to be a hateful kind of guy. Are you sure you are not just really PISSED OFF at the way the ball has been bouncing lately? Well...I don't know...you just don't seem hateful to me just a guy trying to figure things out in his own way and by doing some figuring in his mind...reach a sort of balance with life...maybe life has been taking the piss out of you lately...that would be the way that I would call it but no hate..just frustration. Of course I don't know you...well...take care out there.... :) What is TLC?...I have no idea what those initials stand for.

[cactus jack]

Thank you Why Me. I appreciate the compliment!

TLC is the True Living Church of Jesus Christ and Latter Day Saints. Remember Jim Harmston over in Manti? I spoke with him once before. Very unique man, lots of valuable insight. I feel he's worthy of the rank he holds.

I feel that a true prophet isn't declared by a church as much as by their own actions and words, and that prophets comes in their own unique roles.

Example- A framer can tell you how to set the frame of your house. A carpenter can tell you how to finish it. An electrician can tell you how to wire it and a plumber can tellyou how to hook up the water. They don't have to work together or even acknoldge each other's existance. But if you have an electrician handy, don't count on them telling you how to fix your plugged sink.

[pokatator]

Randy, see post #5.

Love,
Chopped Liver

Hey my apologies, I sped red thru those previous posts and missed it. :rolleyes: It just goes to show two of us think it's good advice. It sure helped me.

PS Crow isn't tasty, but it is edible.

[cactus jack]

I'll be meeting with that BP in one hour. I'll let you guys know what came of it.

[peter_mary]

I'll be meeting with that BP in one hour. I'll let you guys know what came of it.

Having completed your meeting with the Branch President, return and report.

Peter_Mary

[cactus jack]

The meeting lasted about an hour. And I think it pretty much guarenteed I ain't going back. The BP seemed to be talking out of both sides of his mouth. One thing this, then one thing that which disagrees with what he said initially, and then a few mind games I've seen psychologists pull.

How in the hell could I have ever considered going back????

[Born Free]

The meeting lasted about an hour. And I think it pretty much guarenteed I ain't going back. The BP seemed to be talking out of both sides of his mouth. One thing this, then one thing that which disagrees with what he said initially, and then a few mind games I've seen psychologists pull.

How in the hell could I have ever considered going back????
cactus jack,

If you have answered, I might have missed it.

What was the pull?

BTW, what were the "mind games I've seen some psychologists pull"?

Daryl

[cactus jack]

BF, I for the life of me cannot understand what the pull was. I started having serious second thoughts when I sat down outside the BP's office waiting for him. We started talking and I told him of my past with the church.

Then he asks me questions. I answer it and we talk a bit more. He then asks the same question, worded differently. Then he takes those answers and manipulates them into statements and tells me that's what he hears when it's no where near what I said to begin with.

Then he tell me that he's not sure I am ready to come back, because I'm not willing to accept any of the responsibilities required as either an active member or a priesthood holder. I'm not willing? Dude! I know what the responsibilities are and I never said I wouldn't or couldn't do them! But these are "messages" he hears in our conversation. Even though those responsibilities were never mentioned until he stated his doubts.

How the hell I considered going back is beyond me.

[peter_mary]

Cactus, Dude,

I'm so proud! :: sniffle/snort ::

Not because you rejected the BP's message--that's immaterial--I'm impressed that you followed through on your "need to know." In my opinion, the world is full of folks who would have allowed their own insecurities to interfere in the exploration of their psychic dissonance, but you didn't. You called him, made an appointment, and explored it. In the end, you may have strengthened your resolve, but FAR more important in my mind, you strengthened YOU.

Kudos, my prickly cactus friend! :)

Peter_Mary

[why me]

BF, I for the life of me cannot understand what the pull was. I started having serious second thoughts when I sat down outside the BP's office waiting for him. We started talking and I told him of my past with the church.

Then he asks me questions. I answer it and we talk a bit more. He then asks the same question, worded differently. Then he takes those answers and manipulates them into statements and tells me that's what he hears when it's no where near what I said to begin with.

Then he tell me that he's not sure I am ready to come back, because I'm not willing to accept any of the responsibilities required as either an active member or a priesthood holder. I'm not willing? Dude! I know what the responsibilities are and I never said I wouldn't or couldn't do them! But these are "messages" he hears in our conversation. Even though those responsibilities were never mentioned until he stated his doubts.

How the hell I considered going back is beyond me.
I think that I am missing something here cactus. In my opinion one does not leave or enter back into the church based on one person, ie, the branch president. One returns to church out of faith in the church and its teachings. I can see no other reason for going back and the only reason I can see for leaving is if a person no longer believes in the teachings of the church. People are not perfect after all. Returning if returning was desired comes from a faith in the teachings and faith in joseph smith being a prophet of god. And leaving entails just the opposite in my opinion but not on a bishop, branch president, and any other members actions. Have a good day cactus.... :)

[silverfox]

I think that I am missing something here cactus. In my opinion one does not leave or enter back into the church based on one person, ie, the branch president. One returns to church out of faith in the church and its teachings. I can see no other reason for going back and the only reason I can see for leaving is if a person no longer believes in the teachings of the church. People are not perfect after all. Returning if returning was desired comes from a faith in the teachings and faith in joseph smith being a prophet of god. And leaving entails just the opposite in my opinion but not on a bishop, branch president, and any other members actions. Have a good day cactus.... :)

I assume that many of the stake prez's questions were based on Cactus' faith or lack thereof. sounds like the sp chose to manipulate what cactus said and that has resulted in the frustration cactus has shared with us.

[cactus jack]

Manipulate? Ha ha ha. :( No way they can manipulate me. I cut my puppet strings back when I finally got out (out) in '02. Trying in '98 means nothing. Until they honored it in '02 I was still stuck with them.

I was getting irritated by the BP when he started playing around with my words and statements. Making something out of nothing, pretty much. I was honest and sincere. HE wasn't.

And because of that, the points have increased- it's now 15 points per missionary on the road and if you get two or more in one hit, you get an additional 5 points for the second target on! So two missionaries in one hit is now 35 pionts and 3 missionaries is now 55 points.... :eek: :D