Russians give Mormons the cold shoulder

[Born Free]

The following story is in today's (Saturdays) Sydney Morning Herald. The next wave of Mormon baptisms do not look like coming from Russia at this rate!

Daryl

Russians give Mormons the cold shoulder
By Michael Challinger in Voronezh, Russia
August 27, 2005

On the street, the young men look out of place. Their shirts are white and they wear dark trousers and ties. They are carrying books and smiling. At a glance it is obvious they are not from Voronezh, but Salt Lake City.

The Mormons have been in Voronezh, a city of 1 million, 580 kilometres south of Moscow, for 12 years. Their church is a former cinema that still displays the hammer and sickle from Soviet times. A security guard challenges visitors at the entrance and does not seem friendly enough to be a Mormon himself. He is needed, though. Mormon churches elsewhere in Russia have been vandalised.

In their time here the Mormons have made 250 converts - not many, considering they maintain eight American missionaries.

Elder Jacobson, 20, agrees. He has been in Russia for 18 months and admits door-knocking in the shabby Soviet-style blocks of flats is discouraging. Mostly he gets a poor reception. How many converts has he made? "None," he says.
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Russians are suspicious of what they see as religious sects. And the Russian Orthodox Church is hostile to all foreign denominations.

Even the Salvation Army had a hard time at first. It was refused registration on the grounds it was a military organisation; objectors pointed to its uniforms and military rank. The Salvos contested the refusal in court but when their lawyer was late for a hearing an adjournment was refused and their appeal struck out.

They were subsequently registered, but for a time a Salvation Army soup kitchen in Moscow had to close. Still without accreditation in Voronezh, they help out at a local orphanage and with struggling pensioners. Their funds come from overseas, but they are only 20 strong - not enough to form a brass band.

Of foreign denominations, the hardest hit are the Jehovah's Witnesses. In Voronezh their mass baptism at a football stadium attracted only curiosity.

But in Yekaterinburg, Russia's third largest city, 1300 kilometres east of Moscow, the local Orthodox priest pressed the authorities to cancel their booking for a similar event. The organisers were simply told on the morning that the stadium was closed for repairs. They still have not got their booking fee back.

Of course, Russian law guarantees religious freedom - but then so did the Soviet constitution.

[hamar]

The following story is in today's (Saturdays) Sydney Morning Herald. The next wave of Mormon baptisms do not look like coming from Russia at this rate!

Daryl

Russians give Mormons the cold shoulder
By Michael Challinger in Voronezh, Russia
August 27, 2005

On the street, the young men look out of place. Their shirts are white and they wear dark trousers and ties. They are carrying books and smiling. At a glance it is obvious they are not from Voronezh, but Salt Lake City.

The Mormons have been in Voronezh, a city of 1 million, 580 kilometres south of Moscow, for 12 years. Their church is a former cinema that still displays the hammer and sickle from Soviet times. A security guard challenges visitors at the entrance and does not seem friendly enough to be a Mormon himself. He is needed, though. Mormon churches elsewhere in Russia have been vandalised.

In their time here the Mormons have made 250 converts - not many, considering they maintain eight American missionaries.

Elder Jacobson, 20, agrees. He has been in Russia for 18 months and admits door-knocking in the shabby Soviet-style blocks of flats is discouraging. Mostly he gets a poor reception. How many converts has he made? "None," he says.
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Russians are suspicious of what they see as religious sects. And the Russian Orthodox Church is hostile to all foreign denominations.

Even the Salvation Army had a hard time at first. It was refused registration on the grounds it was a military organisation; objectors pointed to its uniforms and military rank. The Salvos contested the refusal in court but when their lawyer was late for a hearing an adjournment was refused and their appeal struck out.

They were subsequently registered, but for a time a Salvation Army soup kitchen in Moscow had to close. Still without accreditation in Voronezh, they help out at a local orphanage and with struggling pensioners. Their funds come from overseas, but they are only 20 strong - not enough to form a brass band.

Of foreign denominations, the hardest hit are the Jehovah's Witnesses. In Voronezh their mass baptism at a football stadium attracted only curiosity.

But in Yekaterinburg, Russia's third largest city, 1300 kilometres east of Moscow, the local Orthodox priest pressed the authorities to cancel their booking for a similar event. The organisers were simply told on the morning that the stadium was closed for repairs. They still have not got their booking fee back.

Of course, Russian law guarantees religious freedom - but then so did the Soviet constitution.


Interesting article, that certainly isn't the message we are getting from Zion HQ is it? I remember getting an audio tape about the opening of Russia years ago and how people were jumping into the waters of baptism.
Sounds as if the water temp. was a little cold, dontcha think?

[helemon]

Interesting article, that certainly isn't the message we are getting from Zion HQ is it? I remember getting an audio tape about the opening of Russia years ago and how people were jumping into the waters of baptism.
Sounds as if the water temp. was a little cold, dontcha think?

I wonder if communism didn't pretty much kill a religious mindset in Russia. Sure they have the Russian Orthodox church but I think a lot of the kids during that period grew up athiest and have seen no reason to change.

[Born Free]

I wonder if communism didn't pretty much kill a religious mindset in Russia. Sure they have the Russian Orthodox church but I think a lot of the kids during that period grew up athiest and have seen no reason to change.
From what I have read a thirst for religion is strong. I have read the Adventists are doing just fine there.

[helemon]

From what I have read a thirst for religion is strong. I have read the Adventists are doing just fine there.

Perhaps they don't buy into the America is the promised land message? Or they realize the church is full of crap?

[Born Free]

Perhaps they don't buy into the America is the promised land message? Or they realize the church is full of crap?
That the Adventists do fine suggests that something more subtle that anti-Americanism is going on.

Maybe they have experience of and a good nose for self-serving bureaucracies, that promise one thing and deliver something quite different!

And I suspect that tithing might not hold a lot of appeal if they are struggling, particularly if it not invested in their contries infrastructure and goes of to build shopping centres in Utah.

Daryl

[cactus jack]

I feel the LDS and opther religions are taking advantage of the psychological impact of the wall coming down and the Soviet Union dissolving. I think it's really sad and a very bad idea because it then paints a very ugly picture about Americans and capitalism. As soon as they're hurting and in deep shit, here come the Americans, taking advantage of them! Not exactly a national movement, but many people did that and look what the effect has become. We are creating more enemies than we are allies.

In such a traumatic event, people that have no religion are now presented with the idea "hey, beleive in my god and everything's gonna get better!" Well, 12 years later, has it? No, not much if at all in some places. So what is the image they have of us now? Greedy selfish crooks that will do anything to make a buck. Not all of us are, I know that.

[why me]

It is difficult to say why russians are not to the church. But perhaps one reason is the word of wisdom. I am not just referring to alcohol but also to tea can coffee...both are russian staples, especially the drinking of tea in the glass. But the alcohol thing would not go over very well either. Alot of the russians enjoy their vodka and beer consumption has become very popular. Then there is the American centeredness of the church. America is not a very popular country at the moment in russian society. These can be two good reasons for the lack of growth. But perhaps the problem is much more structual. The orthodox church which also claims to be the true church puts a great deal of pressure on the population. Maybe there is a battle of truths. But lets face it...to be a mormon in russian society requires discipline...but on the other hand in FInland a temple is being built to serve the russian, balitic and finnish members. And so there is growth in russia but maybe not fast growth...

[papa]

"but on the other hand in FInland a temple is being built to serve the russian, balitic and finnish members. And so there is growth in russia but maybe not fast growth..."

that might be true, IF temple building was a sign of actual growth.

[cactus jack]

Whichever, whatever. Irregardless them mormons best watch their asses good. I used to know a couple of guys (one was "Kevin") that were in a Christian Outreach project and the were working with communities in the extreme north eastern area of Siberia. They had their own planes and flew in to help the people.

What they failed to recognize is these natives have been satisifed with their gods for as long as man has been around. These are people living in conditions that makes the dead of winter in Fairbanks look like a trip to the park. So are they gonna dump their gods in the name of picking Christianity or mormonism? Think again. These are hard sturdy people that live in some of the harshest environments in the world. Not just my opinion, but also the opinion of several retired servicemen I knew when I was active in the LDS. And yes the gentlement were members as well. And they also cautioned the missionary instructors at the MTC. But the same answer- "nah, they'll have God on their side. They're safe!". Since the wall came down, how many missionaries have been endangered or injured over there? A few. More than normal, IIRC.

And the missionaires haven't gone far into the outback like those Christian Outreach fellas did. And those two quit 6 months after they went over to those areas. It wasn't the conditions or the people they were dealing with that pushed them away.

It was that for several years out every ten Christian outreach missionaires, two sometimes three would end up dead or missing.

Those missionaires made a load of mistakes. Lets see, we have a totally different and unique culture, and they love their gods. Their gods havn't let them down, so no reason to leave them. And as one fella found out the hardway, just because a young girl is 20 and single doesn't mean she's available. Kevin told me what ti was like when they found that guy. Still alive (though not for long), he beaten & castrated and whoever castrated him shoved his now-removed sexual parts down his throat. He bled to death. Kevin was still seeing counselors for several years after that.

He said the community was warm and accepting of them. Then when that happened, it's like everyone wanted them dead. No more warm community services. Very few people would show (compared to nearly the entire community before) and those that did show wouldn't talk, sing or even smile. Cold stares. They left that community a month after the missionary was killed.

The mormons don't really understand what they're getting into. If someone there wants to learn, great! Teach them! But missionaries, OF ALL FAITHS, must start respecting the cultural differences. What may be good for us ain't exactly good for others. Respect what culture and beliefs they have and leave them alone.

[noodle]

From what I have read a thirst for religion is strong. I have read the Adventists are doing just fine there.

We spent a few weeks in Russia about a year ago when we picked up our son from a mission. His take on Russia is that there is indeed an interest in religion, especially amongst the youth. Many of the older Russians returned to their orthodox faith when communism fell. Now, keep in mind that we are talking about a country with 11 time zones, I believe. Thus, I hardly have a right to make a judgement about the country in general. I can only report what we saw. Anyway, we attended a Russian LDS meeting with him, and most of the attendees were young. I agree that asking Russians to give up tea, beer, vodka, and cigarettes is perhaps too much to ask. I suspect that the retention rate is low, just like we see in other countries. I went to Russia expecting to see lots of vodka consumption, but instead, it was mostly beer that was being consumed on busses, subways, etc. It also seemed that everybody smoked. Our wonderful U.S. tobacco companies, have really targeted the youth there. It's pretty disgusting.

[mamawortsh]

[QUOTE=Born Free]The following story is in today's (Saturdays) Sydney Morning Herald. The next wave of Mormon baptisms do not look like coming from Russia at this rate!

Daryl

Russians give Mormons the cold shoulder
By Michael Challinger in Voronezh, Russia
August 27, 2005

On the street, the young men look out of place. Their shirts are white and they wear dark trousers and ties. They are carrying books and smiling. At a glance it is obvious they are not from Voronezh, but Salt Lake City.


We have had mission presidents in Norway who have told their missionaries to baptize rich and successfull people instead of the poor. The poor may represent problems for the church, and they are not attributing in giving the church a good reputation (and then it's the endless need of more contributors of tithing). You know, the world has to understand that being a member of the true church brings success and riches to it's members, and in that way the scriptures may be fullfilled too, we all love a win/win situation, don't we.... :D

So this "mission" in Russia is a bit "out of place" when you consider what the church wants. I don't mean what the members want, because I really think most of them want to help and to heal, but I mean the leadership of this source of salvation.

Mama

[why me]

[QUOTE=Born Free]The following story is in today's (Saturdays) Sydney Morning Herald. The next wave of Mormon baptisms do not look like coming from Russia at this rate!

Daryl

Russians give Mormons the cold shoulder
By Michael Challinger in Voronezh, Russia
August 27, 2005

On the street, the young men look out of place. Their shirts are white and they wear dark trousers and ties. They are carrying books and smiling. At a glance it is obvious they are not from Voronezh, but Salt Lake City.


We have had mission presidents in Norway who have told their missionaries to baptize rich and successfull people instead of the poor. The poor may represent problems for the church, and they are not attributing in giving the church a good reputation (and then it's the endless need of more contributors of tithing). You know, the world has to understand that being a member of the true church brings success and riches to it's members, and in that way the scriptures may be fullfilled too, we all love a win/win situation, don't we.... :D

So this "mission" in Russia is a bit "out of place" when you consider what the church wants. I don't mean what the members want, because I really think most of them want to help and to heal, but I mean the leadership of this source of salvation.

Mama
Are you sure about this? Is doesn't sound kosher to me. If this were true and said the way you said it, the church would lose members very quickly. But I will have to take your word for it. Also, if this were true, the mission presidents would have been sent packing by the salt lake GAs. It would be a PR disaster in Norway and in Scandinavia in general. Sounds too explosive to be true but...who knows....maybe it is true...but... Have a good day in Norway...how is the princess doing? Winter is coming...put that woolly sweater on.... :) You really have beautiful sweaters there....

[mamawortsh]

Are you sure about this? Is doesn't sound kosher to me. If this were true and said the way you said it, the church would lose members very quickly. But I will have to take your word for it. Also, if this were true, the mission presidents would have been sent packing by the salt lake GAs. It would be a PR disaster in Norway and in Scandinavia in general. Sounds too explosive to be true but...who knows....maybe it is true...but... Have a good day in Norway...how is the princess doing? Winter is coming...put that woolly sweater on.... :) You really have beautiful sweaters there....


Well, I have heard it myself. We talked a bit about that in my family, because it sounded so unlike what Christ would say, but as good Mormons we were taught that a Mission President cannot say anything that is not good for us. So we thought that those leaders were in Norway of a special reason to save the souls of the rich and sucsessful people as well as everybody else. I talked it over the other day with my mother, and she remembered it too. The name of one of those mission presidents was Gõsta Berling. He had Swedish ancestors. I even visited him and his family together with my mother in SLC in July 1976 after he had returned from Norway.

Mai

[Fredl]

Well, if I may make a small contribution to this discussion......

As some of you are aware, I have a special interest in the Philippines and really latch on to anything coming out of that part of the world. What I've heard about the church there is that the conversion figures are a little deceiving there because the rate of inactivity is horrendous. Converts there revert to inactivity very quickly for the most part and very few remain active as long as a year.

Now, everybody is free to their own speculation on the nature of the problem, but the church attributes it to lack of male leadership. A large majority of converts there are women and, making things even worse, the Philippines is pretty much a Matriarchical Society (so much for the American Myth that all Asian women are demure little darlings totally dedicated to serving their husband. Believe me, I can attest to the truth of this after 19 years of marriage!).

Anyway, I have been told that in the Philippines, proslytizing has been pretty much restricted to families that will include a stable, employed husband who can expected to be active.

I do not remember the source of this information but, as I remember it, it was on good authority.

Fred

[Born Free]

Are you sure about this? Is doesn't sound kosher to me. If this were true and said the way you said it, the church would lose members very quickly. But I will have to take your word for it. Also, if this were true, the mission presidents would have been sent packing by the salt lake GAs. It would be a PR disaster in Norway and in Scandinavia in general. Sounds too explosive to be true but...who knows....maybe it is true...but... Have a good day in Norway...how is the princess doing? Winter is coming...put that woolly sweater on.... :) You really have beautiful sweaters there....

Why Me,

Can't you see MoCorp making a major committment to Liberation Theology?

Now that's a form of Mormonism that would be right up your alley Why Me!

Daryl

[why me]

Why Me,

Can't you see MoCorp making a major committment to Liberation Theology?

Now that's a form of Mormonism that would be right up your alley Why Me!

Daryl
Well...if I understood your meaning...Yes. I would love the mormon church to embrace liberation theology. I was a great supporter of liberation theology in central and south america but John Paul clamped down on liberation theology priests. It seems at the time it was great to be anticommunist but not so righteous to be fighting against poverty and oppression in the americas. But yes, I like the whole idea of liberation theology It challenged the greed corruption of the ruling classes. I remember a brazilian catholic bishop who said: When I pray for the poor and request help for the poor, they call me a saint but when I ask why is there poor, they call me a communist. It is a paraphrase of course, but the exact quotation had an affect on me...I hope you are opposing the conservative economic reforms in Australia...the workers need to fight back and regain their rights from new unfair work dismissal reforms etc. Lets hope for a huge general strike down under...right? :D

[Born Free]

<snip>

I hope you are opposing the conservative economic reforms in Australia...the workers need to fight back and regain their rights from new unfair work dismissal reforms etc. Lets hope for a huge general strike down under...right? :D

Oh, if it were that simple!

The government (conservative) has a simplistic economic rationalist agenda, and speaks and operates with a very naive, and ideology driven agenda. On top of that they do it in an arrogant, unilateral manner.

Our unions on the other hand, have a long record of restricted work practices, which are very self-serving.

So, from my perspective both have points in their favour, and both demerit points. Everyone does a lot of shouting and SFA listening.

Our Federal opposition is inept, so there is little in the way of informative debate occuring, more like a mindless exchange of rote scripts.

Sadly our unions operate against a background of some very nasty waterfront reforms a few years back, in which both sides were equally bloody-minded. The Government won, and our wharves went from some of the most inefficient in the western world, to right up there with the best of them now. It was a good outcome, but personally I felt the way the government went about it was extremely shabby.

So, Why Me, I wish I could see it as simply and as confidently as you feel you can. Sadly I do not. Two wrongs do not make a right, and I remain convinced there has to be a more civilised way to make progress.

But thanks for your awareness of and interest in issues outside US borders, which is a bit rare, particularly at a time when Dogzillas corner of your country is nearly blowing away.

Daryl