Interesting thread at the Latterday Saint Liberation front website

[why me]

I read an interesting thread at the Latterday Saint Liberation Front website. It mentions six discussions that need to take place to keep people in the church. I would be interested in getting your take on the 'proposal' section and on the thread itself. Postmo.org is also mentioned in the proposal section in the very beginning (You will need to click it on) of the post. We are in the community, community section of the text by Dalin. I also posted something in the comment section for the thread but I was somewhat ignored :( . But I would really like to get your feedback on the thread and the proposals (as mentioned by Dehlin) and six discussions by the author of the thread. If the church would have tackled the issues upfront as mentioned in the opening thread of 'six discussions' would you perhaps still be in the church or would you have booted the missionaries out after all the six discussions were given? The website can be found at:

http://ldsliberationfront.blogs.com/

[miss taken]

I read an interesting thread at the Latterday Saint Liberation Front website. It mentions six discussions that need to take place to keep people in the church. I would be interested in getting your take on the 'proposal' section and on the thread itself. Postmo.org is also mentioned in the proposal section in the very beginning (You will need to click it on) of the post. We are in the community, community section of the text by Dalin. I also posted something in the comment section for the thread but I was somewhat ignored :( . But I would really like to get your feedback on the thread and the proposals (as mentioned by Dehlin) and six discussions by the author of the thread. If the church would have tackled the issues upfront as mentioned in the opening thread of 'six discussions' would you perhaps still be in the church or would you have booted the missionaries out after all the six discussions were given? The website can be found at:

http://ldsliberationfront.blogs.com/

Why me, just read through the site, and the comments. I thought it was all very interesting. Thanks.

[meinmachine]

So there are 6 discussions that need to be had?

Good Idea, that way all members who have never heard nor thought of these things can get a crash course. The fellow who wrote this article is on his way OUT of the church. He is making the fundamental error in that he assumes he can intellectualize his Testimony. A BIG mistake, he cannot as there are no satisfactory answers to the questions he poses. A testimony is blind faith; reason is only needed to overcome the initial discomfort of surrendering intellect, once that is done it need not come by again.

The leadership of the Morg will never go for this. They do not engage the minds of its membership. They consistently encourage their members to “hold firmly to the Iron rod and study History and Science only if they must.”

The Mormon Church is a Cult. It holds on to the minds of its members and even when they “Leave the Church” they often feel guilt and worry about their decision. “What if I was wrong, what about all those warm fuzzy feelings I had?”

The danger for the Mormon Corp. is that once it encourages its’ members to use their brains it cannot close the doors to intellect very easily. Why encourage Faith if reason can get you there? It’s like the school bully calling out for all challengers and a very large mean new kid takes him up on it. OOPS!

There is no way the church wants to open up the Pandora's box.

[miss taken]

So there are 6 discussions that need to be had?

Good Idea, that way all members who have never heard nor thought of these things can get a crash course. The fellow who wrote this article is on his way OUT of the church. He is making the fundamental error in that he assumes he can intellectualize his Testimony. A BIG mistake, he cannot as there are no satisfactory answers to the questions he poses. A testimony is blind faith; reason is only needed to overcome the initial discomfort of surrendering intellect, once that is done it need not come by again.

The leadership of the Morg will never go for this. They do not engage the minds of its membership. They consistently encourage their members to “hold firmly to the Iron rod and study History and Science only if they must.”

The Mormon Church is a Cult. It holds on to the minds of its members and even when they “Leave the Church” they often feel guilt and worry about their decision. “What if I was wrong, what about all those warm fuzzy feelings I had?”

The danger for the Mormon Corp. is that once it encourages its’ members to use their brains it cannot close the doors to intellect very easily. Why encourage Faith if reason can get you there? It’s like the school bully calling out for all challengers and a very large mean new kid takes him up on it. OOPS!

There is no way the church wants to open up the Pandora's box.

Hi Meinmachine. You're making some good points. Do you feel that the church has made any steps to stand up to intellectual rigour, and critical thought? Is FAIR for instance, a step in the right direction?

Or do you believe that on the issues that are spoken of in the discussions, that the church is on such shakey ground that it is better to keep the lid tightly shut?

I would have thought that if the leadership of the church themselves, have the confidence that the doctrine, history, and culture can stand up to scrutiny, that they, in the end will be all the better for it.

Tricky...
Mary

[free thinker]

That gentleman will not stay in the morg. He may be here before you know it.

I heard Todd Compton in a radio interview suggest discussions like these. Something along the lines of " problems in church history".

To me it is futile. The only way to deal with it for members that want to stay, is the way Grant Palmer suggested, and used the SDA as an exmple. Just come clean. You will lose many. Many will stay. Some will return.


free thinker

[meinmachine]

Baton down the hatches! That is what the church has to do in order to save their sinking ship. FAIR and other organizations attempt to find a smart sounding counter to the detractors of the church, but I think the leadership is conspicuously silent for two reasons. 1. Debating an issue gives it credibility. They do not want to admit that the official “clean” version of history is up for debate. That just opens a whole can of worms. 2. They know that their arguments in defense of the church will not sway its detractors and intellectual non-morms are not going to join anyway. So what is in it for them?

The Fair board can be an outlet for the pseudo/ compartmentalized* intellectuals in the church, but the church itself does not want to engage in this debate. That is the whole point of getting the membership to have a conversion experience based on the Book of Mormon. If you can convince yourself to believe that whopper, then you have the gullibility to believe all the other fantastic stories. Members and the leadership like to know that there are those among them that “know” the answers. That lets them sleep at night. The church leadership knows less than the average member of FAIR and way less than the average person on this board. They are company men. They are not paid think critically they are paid to grow the business. In the past I have been in sales. I can tell you that salesmen do not have to be intellectuals, but they do need to be quick on their feet and they do need to be passionate. I think the GA’s fit that criteria well. They have their doubts, but they get warm fuzzy experiences, and after all, that is all the proof that any grown man or woman needs! Members and apologists ASSUME their leadership have seen Jesus, and he told them that it is all true. Apologists make up answers to justify their belief in the leaders that “know” for sure, and the leadership takes solace that even though they have not talked to Jesus there is lots of “Proof” to show that what they believe is true. Round, and round we go!










* Compartmentalized intellectuals are those that in one area of their life (Doctors, biologists, historians, etc.) use their intellectual capacity to the fullest, yet on the subject of their religion they turn intellect off.

[miss taken]

Baton down the hatches! That is what the church has to do in order to save their sinking ship. FAIR and other organizations attempt to find a smart sounding counter to the detractors of the church, but I think the leadership is conspicuously silent for two reasons. 1. Debating an issue gives it credibility. They do not want to admit that the official “clean” version of history is up for debate. That just opens a whole can of worms. 2. They know that their arguments in defense of the church will not sway its detractors and intellectual non-morms are not going to join anyway. So what is in it for them?

The Fair board can be an outlet for the pseudo/ compartmentalized* intellectuals in the church, but the church itself does not want to engage in this debate. That is the whole point of getting the membership to have a conversion experience based on the Book of Mormon. If you can convince yourself to believe that whopper, then you have the gullibility to believe all the other fantastic stories. Members and the leadership like to know that there are those among them that “know” the answers. That lets them sleep at night. The church leadership knows less than the average member of FAIR and way less than the average person on this board. They are company men. They are not paid think critically they are paid to grow the business. In the past I have been in sales. I can tell you that salesmen do not have to be intellectuals, but they do need to be quick on their feet and they do need to be passionate. I think the GA’s fit that criteria well. They have their doubts, but they get warm fuzzy experiences, and after all, that is all the proof that any grown man or woman needs! Members and apologists ASSUME their leadership have seen Jesus, and he told them that it is all true. Apologists make up answers to justify their belief in the leaders that “know” for sure, and the leadership takes solace that even though they have not talked to Jesus there is lots of “Proof” to show that what they believe is true. Round, and round we go!










* Compartmentalized intellectuals are those that in one area of their life (Doctors, biologists, historians, etc.) use their intellectual capacity to the fullest, yet on the subject of their religion they turn intellect off.


Me in Machine!,
Thanks. Read your response with great interest. What you say makes an awful lot of sense.
Mary

[Born Free]

That gentleman will not stay in the morg. He may be here before you know it.

I heard Todd Compton in a radio interview suggest discussions like these. Something along the lines of " problems in church history".

To me it is futile. The only way to deal with it for members that want to stay, is the way Grant Palmer suggested, and used the SDA as an exmple. Just come clean. You will lose many. Many will stay. Some will return.


free thinker

Free Thinker,

I know the SDA hit a major speed-bump some time back, but have never got a good take on what went down, and what changed as a result.

Can you expand on that?

I have a growing interest in the Milleniumist religions and how how developed and have evolved over the years. I only in teh last week became aware that teh JWs started back in teh same roots as Adventism.

Mormonism never seems to have been as rabidly Milleniumist as those faiths, and I woudl like to understand that better.

Daryl

[free thinker]

I know the SDA hit a major speed-bump some time back, but have never got a good take on what went down, and what changed as a result.

Can you expand on that?


Daryl


The following is a direct quote from the book AN INSIDERS VIEW OF MORMON ORIGINS by Grant Palmer. I think it will provide what you are looking for.

" There are many people, both in our church and in other traditions, who write and comment about religion in ways that differ from the official canon. These people can and do persuade belief. In the early 1980's, Seventh Day Adventist scholars discovered that over 80 percent of church founder Ellen G. White's revelations in her " keystone" book, THE GREAT CONTROVERSY, came directly from existing 19th century sources. Other reveletory writings and teachings, including some of her visions, also show unacknowledged literary borrowings. The Adventist leadership has responded by making the church more Christ centered. " (Page 263)


This is what Palmer advocated for the mormon church. He was disfellowshipped recently. It is my understanding that his court lasted 6 hours. Oh to have been a fly on the wall.

I want to add here that Mr. Palmer is one of my personal heroes. I have absolute unalloyed respect for the man.

free thinker

[Born Free]

I know the SDA hit a major speed-bump some time back, but have never got a good take on what went down, and what changed as a result.

Can you expand on that?


Daryl


The following is a direct quote from the book AN INSIDERS VIEW OF MORMON ORIGINS by Grant Palmer. I think it will provide what you are looking for.

" There are many people, both in our church and in other traditions, who write and comment about religion in ways that differ from the official canon. These people can and do persuade belief. In the early 1980's, Seventh Day Adventist scholars discovered that over 80 percent of church founder Ellen G. White's revelations in her " keystone" book, THE GREAT CONTROVERSY, came directly from existing 19th century sources. Other reveletory writings and teachings, including some of her visions, also show unacknowledged literary borrowings. The Adventist leadership has responded by making the church more Christ centered. " (Page 263)


This is what Palmer advocated for the mormon church. He was disfellowshipped recently. It is my understanding that his court lasted 6 hours. Oh to have been a fly on the wall.

I want to add here that Mr. Palmer is one of my personal heroes. I have absolute unalloyed respect for the man.

free thinker
FT,

Thanks for that. It would be interesting to see accounts of the turmoil they went through as a leadership and membership as they wrestled with that information, before deciding to embrace truth.

There must have been voices saying - deny it, turn your face away. It will go away.

There must have been voices saying - embrace it. We have no integrity, no future unless we embrace integrity.

And there must have been ensions between those camps, and periods of wrestling.

How did they do what Mormonism is as yet incapable of?

Daryl

[Born Free]

<snip>

This is what Palmer advocated for the mormon church. He was disfellowshipped recently. It is my understanding that his court lasted 6 hours. Oh to have been a fly on the wall.

I want to add here that Mr. Palmer is one of my personal heroes. I have absolute unalloyed respect for the man.

free thinker

Now that might have made some 'reality TV' worth watching eh?

None of this 'behind closed doors' stuff. Lay it open for all top see and dissect.

Daryl

[why me]

That gentleman will not stay in the morg. He may be here before you know it.

I heard Todd Compton in a radio interview suggest discussions like these. Something along the lines of " problems in church history".

To me it is futile. The only way to deal with it for members that want to stay, is the way Grant Palmer suggested, and used the SDA as an exmple. Just come clean. You will lose many. Many will stay. Some will return.


free thinker
I think that we all handle things differently. IMO, he will probably stay in the church along with most of the others who post regularly there. I think that many have come to terms with the religion and what it teaches. I think the same holds true for the feminist mornon housewives site. Many have questions but they choose to stay in. I also think that we need to remember what Paul said about learned people being led astray and what the BoM teaches about learned people who base knowledge without faith being led astray...I think that was in 2 Nephi 9:28-30. Both the bible and the BoM warn against having knowledge without faith. Most likely, the clue in there in those scriptures as to why they will not fall away from the church anytime soon. I guess the people there on those sites have a rather strong questioning faith in the church.