What would I tell somebody?

[Fredl]

Just went back and looked at a thread regarding the benefits (if any) I've received from Mormonism. It kinda played into something I've been thinking about lately: What would I tell a friend about the church today if I were to be asked what I thought of it.

Well, the first thing that I'd say would be that it definitely has some very good things about it. However, they come at a price.

You will meet some wonderful people in it. You will be exposed to a doctrine that is, for the most part, full of optimism and good cheer and a way of life that is, in many ways, quite admirable. It provides answers to many of life's problems that are reassuring and help you to stay focused and optimistic in the face of difficulties and heartache. As long as you stay actively involved and doing your part, you will find many friends willing to visit you if you are sick and help you in many ways when you have problems.

Most importantly, by and large, most members of the church are trying really hard to be good people.

This comes at a price. You must agree to the truth of many things that will almost certainly be contrary to the experience and logic of most people. You must lay aside all objectivity when it comes to evaluating Mormon history. You must agree to the truth of a theology that is quite interesting in some ways but, at bottom, is rather childish. You must donate 10% of your income to unknown purposes when it could be used in probably much better ways were you to direct its use yourself. You must agree to spend 3 hours every Sunday in boredom.

Also, be aware that, whatever members of the church tell you about the state of the church in the world today, it is an institution clearly in the early stages of decline.

I could go on, but the point is, this may very well be the place for you, at least for a time. It is not an altogether bad place, though the folks there seem to take it awfully seriously. Just remember that whatever claims it makes to having been founded by Jesus Christ and our Heavenly Father, it is, in reality, just one more human organization, with the same sorts of flaws that all human institutions have. If you want to join, at least for a time, just don't expect too much and you'll be fine!

Fred

[peter_mary]

Fred,

That was nicely done, mi amigo!

Part of what I think it points out is that Mormonism, like any religion, is going to appeal to people who are at a particular stage of development. Because of it's rigid reliance on rules, hierarchies, dogmas, etc., I think it's quite safe to say that Mormonism appeals to folks functioning at a more basic level of spiritual/moral/ethical development.

There are other Churches who appeal to the same set of folks, and then there are churches that appeal to people whose level of spiritual/ethical/moral development may have evolved to something a little more complex. [Note: I'm trying really hard to stear clear of language that promotes hiearchy, such as "lower moral development" versus "higher moral development." I worry that it is tempting to always assume, in OR out of the Church, that our personal choices relative to this issue are indicative of higher-order development, and that everyone else is wandering around like infants in the dark. I don't want to suggest that.]

There are people who are attracted to all kinds of different things...some to music, some to accounting, some to law, some to labor, some to teaching, some to medicine, some to farming, etc. None of those is superior in terms of it's vocation (although some certainly PAY better...). They are all equal in terms of their inate worth. In the end, they serve to promote cooperation among human beings. But different personalities are drawn to different avocations.

I think the same is often the case for religions. Mormonism has real appeal to a "kind" of person, or to people who aspire to be that "kind" of person. That's not bad. In fact, it's a statement about the diversity of the human experience more than it is a qualitative statement about the people who are Mormons. Mormonism exists because it fulfills a need for some people.

And it will remain a minor player on the world stage because it is limited in the number of people who are drawn to it. It's appeal isn't broad enough.

Your analysis I think points out the qualities along which people divide themselves...either into the Church, or out of it.

Peter_Mary

[why me]

Just went back and looked at a thread regarding the benefits (if any) I've received from Mormonism. It kinda played into something I've been thinking about lately: What would I tell a friend about the church today if I were to be asked what I thought of it.

Well, the first thing that I'd say would be that it definitely has some very good things about it. However, they come at a price.

You will meet some wonderful people in it. You will be exposed to a doctrine that is, for the most part, full of optimism and good cheer and a way of life that is, in many ways, quite admirable. It provides answers to many of life's problems that are reassuring and help you to stay focused and optimistic in the face of difficulties and heartache. As long as you stay actively involved and doing your part, you will find many friends willing to visit you if you are sick and help you in many ways when you have problems.

Most importantly, by and large, most members of the church are trying really hard to be good people.

This comes at a price. You must agree to the truth of many things that will almost certainly be contrary to the experience and logic of most people. You must lay aside all objectivity when it comes to evaluating Mormon history. You must agree to the truth of a theology that is quite interesting in some ways but, at bottom, is rather childish. You must donate 10% of your income to unknown purposes when it could be used in probably much better ways were you to direct its use yourself. You must agree to spend 3 hours every Sunday in boredom.

Also, be aware that, whatever members of the church tell you about the state of the church in the world today, it is an institution clearly in the early stages of decline.

I could go on, but the point is, this may very well be the place for you, at least for a time. It is not an altogether bad place, though the folks there seem to take it awfully seriously. Just remember that whatever claims it makes to having been founded by Jesus Christ and our Heavenly Father, it is, in reality, just one more human organization, with the same sorts of flaws that all human institutions have. If you want to join, at least for a time, just don't expect too much and you'll be fine!

Fred
Thanks for the post Fred. I have actually shared the gospel with anyone partly because I can't seem to live it myself. But if asked I would list the positives you mentioned in the post, plus a couple of the negatives. Church can be a difficult life but it can also be awarding life for many. But it does acquire alot of obedience from its members when it comes to gospel living but then again I was just listening to Joyce Meyer and she was more or less saying the same as the mormons...through obedience...you will find joy in life. Your post fred was very balanced in content...thanks for it.... :)
Oh as far as the ten percent tithe is concerned, it is alot but then again many members 'swear' by it and the 'blessings' that it gives them to give a tithe....but I haven't paid a tithe in years...I suppose church life is what you make of it...as long as your testimony of the 'true' gospel lasts. I am not sure what I would say about the internet searches...I am torn on that one...in a way...it would be good for people to search the web for information but on the other hand it can be quite daunting to get all kinds of information from so many sources that are biased in content. But maybe it is better now than later....it would be nice if life were still simple without the many contradictions found in life and belief.

[cactus jack]

I'd tell them to stay the hell away from the LDS.

Actually, I'm hoping to work on something just for that, after today's meeting with the BP. And everyone and anyone is welcome to assist if they wish. I'm thinking of compiling a fact book (provided one isn't available) that explains the LDS.

I cannot see how the hell I was thinking of going back. Not after this evening's meet. I was willing to explain Joseph's multiple arrests in NYS for treasure seeking (and using the peep stones in the process). I was willing to overlook a lot. I just pray that no one is fool enough to go there.
/end rant

[Fredl]

You know, Cactus, my own strange slant on things is that the Mormon Church thrives on persecution and hostility and has a much more difficult time dealing with acceptance and respect. Expectations of rejection seems to be built into the Mormon psyche. How many times, even in this day and age, have I seen the martyred expressions of missionaries, church leaders and average members at the slightest mention of any sort of rejection of Mormons or their church. How they love picturing themselves as God's chosen people in the Latter Days, suffering the slings and arrows of a Fallen World held under Satan's grasp.

I like most (well.....many) of the Mormons I know. It's just that I no longer share their definition of themselves as being particularly unique in the world. There are many colleges and universities as good or better than BYU and Bill Gates probably benefits the world more in a month than the church does in a year. I like many of the youth in the ward, but I like the kids my son hangs around with now a lot better than the Mormon clique he gravitated to when he first retuned to high school after home schooling for 2 or 3 years.

Altogether, I think the church and people in it are "nice", but too out of touch with reality for my taste.

Fred

[meinmachine]

The church is like a shoe. For some it fits nicely, for others it hurts and binds blisters and rubs. If the shoe fits and you’re happy then enjoy your illusion.

It bothers me that people need the security of all the answers and that is what I would warn potential members about. IMHO EVERY religion is a different pair of shoes. All of them are not needed. Take a walk barefoot, feel the earth, the sand. All the thorns and obstacles are man made. (Usually by religions) So it is much better to walk barefoot. It is not as secure, and it may not be as pretty, but it is very wise.

Sorry for the extended metaphor, but I couldn’t help myself!

[peter_mary]

The church is like a shoe. For some it fits nicely, for others it hurts and binds blisters and rubs. If the shoe fits and you’re happy then enjoy your illusion.

It bothers me that people need the security of all the answers and that is what I would warn potential members about. IMHO EVERY religion is a different pair of shoes. All of them are not needed. Take a walk barefoot, feel the earth, the sand. All the thorns and obstacles are man made. (Usually by religions) So it is much better to walk barefoot. It is not as secure, and it may not be as pretty, but it is very wise.

Sorry for the extended metaphor, but I couldn’t help myself!

:: Peter_Mary kicks off shoes, goes for walk ::

:: Peter_Mary is reminded by supervisor that he is at work, and to please put his shoes back on ::

:D

:: Peter_Mary complies to keep the paychecks coming ::

[miss taken]

The church is like a shoe. For some it fits nicely, for others it hurts and binds blisters and rubs. If the shoe fits and you’re happy then enjoy your illusion.

It bothers me that people need the security of all the answers and that is what I would warn potential members about. IMHO EVERY religion is a different pair of shoes. All of them are not needed. Take a walk barefoot, feel the earth, the sand. All the thorns and obstacles are man made. (Usually by religions) So it is much better to walk barefoot. It is not as secure, and it may not be as pretty, but it is very wise.

Sorry for the extended metaphor, but I couldn’t help myself!


My shoes are off, and I am walking bare foot!!! Feet are getting a little dirty, but it sure feels good!!!
mary :)

[free thinker]

If you wear shoes less, generally you have less problem with stinky feet! :cool:

free thinker

[hamar]

My shoes are off, and I am walking bare foot!!! Feet are getting a little dirty, but it sure feels good!!!
mary :)

And you can go inside and repent with soap and water and all your dirt will be washed away! :D

[why me]

If you wear shoes less, generally you have less problem with stinky feet! :cool:

free thinker
And what if a person steps in spit or on glass? It doesn't pay to be too careless...the ground has many pitfalls for the poor feet not to mention the black soot on the bottom of the foot....no I will wear shoes except in a private garden that has been tendered with loving care by human touch...something with soft green grass...moistened by the summer rain or dried from the sun....and I would have the feeling of walking on cushions....but still feel the human hand tending the garden.

[meinmachine]

And what if a person steps in spit or on glass? It doesn't pay to be too careless...the ground has many pitfalls for the poor feet not to mention the black soot on the bottom of the foot....no I will wear shoes except in a private garden that has been tendered with loving care by human touch...something with soft green grass...moistened by the summer rain or dried from the sun....and I would have the feeling of walking on cushions....but still feel the human hand tending the garden.

The obstacles were created by man. So you create the problem, then create the cure for the problem. Oh wait, if you don't believe my cure of the problem, you are going to Hell! Repent you wrong shoe wearer! Repent! Follow the holy shoe of Jerusalem! (couldn't help the Monty Python reference!)

[why me]

The obstacles were created by man. So you create the problem, then create the cure for the problem. Oh wait, if you don't believe my cure of the problem, you are going to Hell! Repent you wrong shoe wearer! Repent! Follow the holy shoe of Jerusalem! (couldn't help the Monty Python reference!)
Obstacles are created inside the minds of human beings. Since we are such complicated and multi-layered creatures, we could not survive without shoes. Without shoes the feet become hard and callous...not good for the human soul if the soul mirrors the feet of the individual. No, we need shoes for the rough times and barefeet for the good moments in the garden of life. The idea would be to make life resemble a garden...so that we could be more free and human centered in our own creativity, thereby life would be like walking on soft green grass. :)

[silverfox]

Obstacles are created inside the minds of human beings. Since we are such complicated and multi-layered creatures, we could not survive without shoes. Without shoes the feet become hard and callous...not good for the human soul if the soul mirrors the feet of the individual. No, we need shoes for the rough times and barefeet for the good moments in the garden of life. The idea would be to make life resemble a garden...so that we could be more free and human centered in our own creativity, thereby life would be like walking on soft green grass. :)

I disagree. Hard callouses provide protection to allow the foot to experience many paths of choice. Shoes, IMO, are only a convenience to make the walk down certain paths easier. I'll take my hard calloused feet over soft inexperienced feet any day. Have you noticed that when things are always easy for people they tend to not respect or appreciate it?

[why me]

I disagree. Hard callouses provide protection to allow the foot to experience many paths of choice. Shoes, IMO, are only a convenience to make the walk down certain paths easier. I'll take my hard calloused feet over soft inexperienced feet any day. Have you noticed that when things are always easy for people they tend to not respect or appreciate it?
I think that you are taking an American social perspective toward life and its meaning. There is sort of a pioneer spirit or frontier spirit to your post. Much can be seen and done with the wearing of shoes as being barefoot. I don't see life as a constant struggle unless the socioeconomic system implants such a struggle for us to follow. Life can be beautifully seen from the various pairs of shoes that one puts on the feet. Shoes give comfort and security...without shoes life can be a painful experience regardless how colloused the feet may be. There is always somehthing waiting to pierce the skin and cause bleeding. Lets look at new orleans....most of the poor did not have life shoes on their feet and we see now what happens when we have no shoes...the feet have no security. Hence, if more people in New Orleans had life shoes...they might have survived better than they did. What New Orleans shows for the world and for Americans in particular is: The Bush Doctrine is dead and the american way of life and death are undignified because many people have no life- shoes to protect their life- feet. Egoism and social Darwinism need to be put into the trash can and life- shoes need to be given freely to all those who need them---through decent employment, health care and an educational sytem--- all based on a shoes for everyone mentality. :)

Life in New Orleans was certainly not easy before the flood never mind after the flood and look at the state of that city before and after that flood...not good to say the least...many people had no life shoes...and life was a struggle for many.

[silverfox]

I think that you are taking an American social perspective toward life and its meaning. There is sort of a pioneer spirit or frontier spirit to your post. Much can be seen and done with the wearing of shoes as being barefoot. I don't see life as a constant struggle unless the socioeconomic system implants such a struggle for us to follow. Life can be beautifully seen from the various pairs of shoes that one puts on the feet. Shoes give comfort and security...without shoes life can be a painful experience regardless how colloused the feet may be. There is always somehthing waiting to pierce the skin and cause bleeding. Lets look at new orleans....most of the poor did not have life shoes on their feet and we see now what happens when we have no shoes...the feet have no security. Hence, if more people in New Orleans had life shoes...they might have survived better than they did. What New Orleans shows for the world and for Americans in particular is: The Bush Doctrine is dead and the american way of life and death are undignified because many people have no life- shoes to protect their life- feet. Egoism and social Darwinism need to be put into the trash can and life- shoes need to be given freely to all those who need them---through decent employment, health care and an educational sytem--- all based on a shoes for everyone mentality. :)

Life in New Orleans was certainly not easy before the flood never mind after the flood and look at the state of that city before and after that flood...not good to say the least...many people had no life shoes...and life was a struggle for many.

I am not sure what you mean by "life" shoes. I can't categorize everyone into one pair of shoes. I know that for me I am grateful for the challenging times in my life - what I have learned is priceless and others can benefit from my experiences.

So what kind of shoes was Bush wearing? I would say a little TOO comfy.

[meinmachine]

NO MORE SHOES! Sorry I started the metaphor, I won't do it again...today anyway.