A few words about Mormons and Natural Disasters

[dogzilla]

I haven't been at this site much because hurricane victim stories are so near and dear to my heart; I've been reading and watching video of my fellow Gulf Coast citizens' struggles. I'm sure many of you, by now, have caught some appalling and shocking footage. Over on the exmo recovery boards, there are already several threads about how some Christian fundie groups (including, but not limited to the morg) are behaving in all ways but Christian. I think it's high time there's some discussion on this board.

Anyway, here's a post I read on the Huffington Post that makes me want to take the next three weeks off work and go volunteer for the Red Cross. I strongly urge all of you to donate your time or money to your local Red Cross in order to funnel resources down South where they are needed.

"This is our tsunami," said Biloxi mayor A. J. Holloway.

"In the New Orleans Superdome where the homeless were herded, the toilets overflow and the water rises to a meter outside; as food relief diminishes and the hospital electrical generators fail.

"Remember the lesson of the tsunami. America showed its heartlessness to the world when Bush's contributions failed to match those of small countries in Europe. American volunteers flocked there in mass, only to be seen pounding their bibles and refusing food and shelter to anyone who didn't come to Bible Study.

"Progressives can do better than this. Natural disasters demonstrate what we all know, progressive humanist and progressive Christian alike, that man doesn't live on his own but in the company of fellow human-beings for whom he has a responsibility. Tragedy strikes for obscure reasons, and tragedy, above all other incidents, ought to remind us of the constant peril in which each of us lives, of our need for one another to survive, of our duty to take up responsibility for the well-being of other human beings. Whatever our political philosophy, whether we think that overarching institutions or local fellowships ought to take responsibility, we all agree that responsibility ought to be taken.

"Jesus said, "As you do unto the least of these you have done it unto me."

"We all need to do a reexamination, facing this disaster, of how American cities rate in their responses. The New Orleans tragedy is demonstrating that we have utterly failed Jesus' commandment. Leaving the drowning city, we left behind the poor, the weak, the sick, and the incarcerated, to starve and drown among the toxic waters.

"I put out a call for congregational action toward three groups that represent the least of our society. If we fail here, we demonstrate ourselves before the eyes of the world to truly have failed as a Christian nation, not even capable of caring for our own in their time of direst need:

"- The poor and homeless who, left behind as their fellow-citizens have fled, have been starving in the Superdome while the structure was ripped apart. Think for a minute about those who try to plan ahead but can't, about the cramped shuttles leaving the city, about what it would be like not to have enough money for a bus ticket out when the warnings were sounded? You see doom coming, and you look around, and no one remains to help you. The city is evacuated and still you wait. Where were the churches that could have organized buses to transport the poor to safety?

"- The prisoners evacuated today only after standing in rising water for hours. In advanced nations, we claim that our prisons are supposed to correct and not merely to torture. The man standing in rising water, thinking himself forgotten by his society for wrongs committed far in the past, abandoned, alone, and facing death in totally abysmal conditions -- how will he ever gain faith in society again? What could possibly reclaim him for society? Now, herding them into armored vans, transported to already crowded prisons in Texas, we sew the seeds of irredeemable anger and viciousness towards society. Church, activist, and state need to intervene to make reparations to the prisoners for the way they've been treated in this crisis.

"- The sick and elderly who are in hospital, while the windows were blown out and the electric generators failed.

"I am putting this out there as a wake-up call. The progressive churches of America aren't organized in a way that allows them to deal with disasters on a great scale. But we do have on our side the quick flow of information, the internet, the local networks of concerned activists, clergy, and lay people, and the growing realization in America that our government isn't able to care for the poor and disenfranchised.

"Share this message, I ask you, to your congregations, your ministers, your charities, and let some response be heard. The responsibility for right action in this tragedy rests entirely with progressives, Christian and humanist alike: the radical right has disowned the crisis, claiming that some deserved to be hit by a hurricane. Don't let their reaction of armored poison prevail as the formatted response. Theirs is a message that kills mercy, wastes the soul, and annihilates civil society.

"We have a better answer than that. Let Christ's message, of putting others' needs before our own, ring through the churches of America. Let's show that progressive Christians can do better than this. The survival of a Christian message true to Jesus' teaching is at stake, in America. The survival of a civil society capable of healing the wounds of economic division is at stake."

[peter_mary]

...we're thinking of eveyone in the wake of Katrina.

A catastrophe of this magnitude is hard to wrap your brain around. Especially when we're SO far away here in the Northwest. But we are thinking, and we are contributing...

This, though, especially caught my attention, because it says so much about our decline as a people:

"I put out a call for congregational action toward three groups that represent the least of our society. If we fail here, we demonstrate ourselves before the eyes of the world to truly have failed as a Christian nation, not even capable of caring for our own in their time of direst need:

As Christians, and as Americans, we have adopted the mindset that "you get what you deserve." As we watch the poor and the destitute of New Orleans struggle, it is easy to imagine that it wouldn't be this way had they worked harder--you know, "done their part." The images that we see of looters and of the destitute are always African Americans. The police and National Guardsman are always white. The message that we are sending is that the problem in New Orleans and Biloxi and in Gulfport is a poor, black problem...not one that we, as white folks, need to worry about. We assume they are getting what they deserve.

Ironically, the looters are saying the same thing. They feel this is their "chance" to get what they deserve, because they've been held back, held down, shoved aside for generations.

There COULD be lessons in this tragedy for Americans...the question is--do we want to learn them?

Katrina is first and foremost a natural disaster of unprecidented proportion. But underlying the disaster, and contributing to the collapse of this great city, is the crumbling foundation of the American dream.

It is time we wake up.

Peter_Mary

:: wipes tear ::

[why me]

...we're thinking of eveyone in the wake of Katrina.

A catastrophe of this magnitude is hard to wrap your brain around. Especially when we're SO far away here in the Northwest. But we are thinking, and we are contributing...

This, though, especially caught my attention, because it says so much about our decline as a people:



As Christians, and as Americans, we have adopted the mindset that "you get what you deserve." As we watch the poor and the destitute of New Orleans struggle, it is easy to imagine that it wouldn't be this way had they worked harder--you know, "done their part." The images that we see of looters and of the destitute are always African Americans. The police and National Guardsman are always white. The message that we are sending is that the problem in New Orleans and Biloxi and in Gulfport is a poor, black problem...not one that we, as white folks, need to worry about. We assume they are getting what they deserve.

Ironically, the looters are saying the same thing. They feel this is their "chance" to get what they deserve, because they've been held back, held down, shoved aside for generations.

There COULD be lessons in this tragedy for Americans...the question is--do we want to learn them?

Katrina is first and foremost a natural disaster of unprecidented proportion. But underlying the disaster, and contributing to the collapse of this great city, is the crumbling foundation of the American dream.

It is time we wake up.

Peter_Mary

:: wipes tear ::
Americans seem to learn from tragedies and then quickly forget what they have learned. The society is fast paced and forgetful. Who remembers thailand anymore? It is far from the consciousness. What happened in New Orleans is connected to the total disregard of human welfare. We build homes in dangerous locations for profit and gain only to watch nature do its work and destroy the property that was built. Something is at work here unseen to the human eye. What has been happening is a warning that we all need to get our society away from the profit motive and begin to build communities which respect the natural order and resect life that does not belong to the human species. The rain forests are disappearing, mud shacks are being built on hillsides in the third world the climate has been changing and greed is rampant and is the desire for unsustainable growth. Also we seem to live in a social darwinist world...the strong survive...the weak die. We have become individualists, except when an emergency happpens but we need to think more collectively before an emergency happens. I am sure that the LDS church is doing its part in helping the victims....but the scope of the tragedy is still unfolding...and it is difficult to get to the victims. Nature is god and we humans are just specks of sand in a universe gone mad, thanks in part to our disrespect of natural elements.

[dogzilla]

A couple of comments and thank you both for posting.


The images that we see of looters and of the destitute are always African Americans. The police and National Guardsman are always white. The message that we are sending is that the problem in New Orleans and Biloxi and in Gulfport is a poor, black problem...not one that we, as white folks, need to worry about. We assume they are getting what they deserve.

Ironically, the looters are saying the same thing. They feel this is their "chance" to get what they deserve, because they've been held back, held down, shoved aside for generations.

First, you should understand (and I'm sure you do, but I realize this is probably not as obvious to you as it would be to someone who lives down here) that the proportion of nonwhites in the Deep South is of course way higher than in most of the rest of the country. NOLA, Biloxi and Gulfport: What you're seeing is the poor that were left behind by not just the whites, but even the nonwhites who have a little money and resources. Now, in other parts of the country, I would certainly expect the message you are getting is that this is not a white problem. (And if you watched Nancy Grace on CNN last night, you'd never know this thing happened -- she was still wasting airtime on that dead chick in Aruba.) Many of us are keenly aware that this isn't just a "black thang." Once we get those people out, there's still 80% of NOLA under water and that includes the businesses, the casinos and the better part of revenue for three states. Obviously, with most of the refineries nonoperational, this affects ALL of us in terms of gas prices.

I disagree that the looters are trying to get back what they think they deserve. No, I think desperate people take desperate measures. These people have no homes to go to, no stores to buy from, no jobs from which to get money and NOBODY can get into NOLA to help them. So you've got a hungry baby on your hip, no food, no formula, no money, no water, and no diapers, you've just watched your wife ripped from your arms by storm surge never to be seen again, and most of the National Guard is overseas looking for WMDs. What choices are you going to make to keep what's left of your family safe and healthy? We're talking about level 1 of Maslow's heirarchy of needs here: very basic life and death survival stuff. If I've gotta bust into the local quickie mart to get some milk and diapers, that ain't looting, IMHO. Chances are, if some of those shop owners could get in there to give food and water away, they probably would. Now, TVs, VCRs and the like: that is just stupid. You can't eat it, you can't use it and you can't sell it 'cause nobody has anything to buy it with. THAT's looting and a complete waste of time. People are stupid sometimes. But I think it's less about race (but not entirely NOT about race) and more about class warfare: We've been shoving the poor aside for decades, from both sides of the aisle. And that's EXACTLY what Christ himself railed against: you don't leave your poor behind to just starve or drown. (And I'm not even a Christian.) Again: where were the churches to help get these people out? Why are they not now opening their doors (in adjacent areas, of course) as shelters? We've gotta bus 20,000 people six hours to Houston because not even one church would take even one family in? That's more appalling to me than some of these survivor stories.


What has been happening is a warning that we all need to get our society away from the profit motive and begin to build communities which respect the natural order and resect life that does not belong to the human species.

While I agree with this wholeheartedly and have personally witnessed damage to the Everglades due to unconstrained suburban strip mall infestation... that is not why this happened in this way to NOLA. In other words, we can't blame the victims once again and say, "well these dumbasses built their fair city in a swamp below sea level, what did they expect?"

Hey, NOLA was founded in the 1700s. It wasn't part of the US until 1803 (Louisiana Purchase, anyone?). Fast forward a couple hundred years to 1992 when Hurricane Andrew hit. (Actually 1969 to H. Camille) That was the wakeup call the FEMA officials and NOLA officials needed to do studies in preparation for this, the worst-case scenario. A wetland actually helps protect the city by providing an avenue for drainage and by putting some real estate between the storm and the people.

Here's the part where I get political: see, for the last 10-12 years, the state of LA has been desperately trying to get federal funds in order to shore up the levees. (Who else has that Led Zepplin song stuck in their head?) During the Clinton administration, they were getting some funding. Under the current administration, that funding has been cut and cut and has finally dwindled to nothing because we must spend all our money, men and resources finding WMDs. (The irony of "WMD" is killing me.) Pause here for a good slap in the head. :duh

Not only has NOLA and LA in general been aware for a decade or more that the levees are sinking, but also (I heard the mayor of NOLA say this last night) environmental protections have been rolled back which contribute to soil erosion along the coast. In our attempts to put nature on a leash and get all the oil we can out of the Gulf, we have destroyed the best possible buffer for a hurricane -- the wetland. When Camille came ashore, a lot of the impact was absorbed by the swamps so it weakened by the time it reached the communities along the coast. The levee/dam/dyke systems in those areas have actually contributed to the flooding problem this time. Don't get me wrong: there would have been flooding and mass destruction from any Cat 5 storm anyway. But I agree that public policy should take some of the blame here.

This, however, does not excuse any religious organization from putting forth the most effort possible to minister to the peeps in need. I'm glad why me has confidence in the LDS church, because I'm quite sure that very, very few churches will really show up, jump in, and offer some meaningful assistance. (That'll all happen through small, grassroots type groups or by people volunteering for the Red Cross or Salvation Army.) I'd expect the LDS to be the least and last on that list because of the mindset that NOLA is evil and they're all sinners, so they deserved it. Same blame the victim mentality with which the church treats rape survivors. This is just a different kind of rape.

[silverfox]

Americans seem to learn from tragedies and then quickly forget what they have learned.

Be careful -

[silverfox]

[QUOTE=peter_mary
As Christians, and as Americans, we have adopted the mindset that "you get what you deserve." As we watch the poor and the destitute of New Orleans struggle, it is easy to imagine that it wouldn't be this way had they worked harder--you know, "done their part." The images that we see of looters and of the destitute are always African Americans. The police and National Guardsman are always white. The message that we are sending is that the problem in New Orleans and Biloxi and in Gulfport is a poor, black problem...not one that we, as white folks, need to worry about. We assume they are getting what they deserve.

Ironically, the looters are saying the same thing. They feel this is their "chance" to get what they deserve, because they've been held back, held down, shoved aside for generations.

There COULD be lessons in this tragedy for Americans...the question is--do we want to learn them?

Katrina is first and foremost a natural disaster of unprecidented proportion. But underlying the disaster, and contributing to the collapse of this great city, is the crumbling foundation of the American dream.

It is time we wake up.

Peter_Mary

:: wipes tear ::[/QUOTE]

Careful - I can tell you that I don't have that mindset and I know of many who don't.

[peter_mary]

First, you should understand (and I'm sure you do, but I realize this is probably not as obvious to you as it would be to someone who lives down here) that the proportion of nonwhites in the Deep South is of course way higher than in most of the rest of the country. NOLA, Biloxi and Gulfport: What you're seeing is the poor that were left behind by not just the whites, but even the nonwhites who have a little money and resources. Now, in other parts of the country, I would certainly expect the message you are getting is that this is not a white problem.


No, no...don't get me wrong. I've been in the deep south, and I understand the demographics. I "get it" that the faces we're seeing on the news are the people who, by and large, had no choice but to try and stay, and that the Churches, the government, their neighbors, whoever, dropped the ball in doing what they could to help get them out.

What I AM saying, and I'm guessing we're actually talking about the exact same thing, only you are better with stringing words together, is that for the rest of the country, the "people" issue is a black/poverty issue, and true to form, it's just not something the white folks of this country are going to do anything about. Hell, if they were, it would have started LONG ago.

What the White folks are worried about is how is this going to impact THEM, which is of course economically. So from the perspective of the vast majority of this country, the real problem in New Orleans is the industrial infrastructure (which is predominately owned by white, rich folks). And ultimately, if I had to guess, the federal government was willing to slack off on federal assistance for levees etc. because their industrial cronies were well insured...they could take this hit, and get some brand new facilities, or at least new carpeting for their old ones out of the deal. So let's bomb the hell out of Iraq instead. The poor, black residents of New Orleans, well, from the white majority standpoint of America and its conservative Government, they are expendable. Call them "collateral damage."

Hopefully by now you know me well enough to realize this makes me sick... I'm reporting on what I observe, not what I want. I'm also an ignoramus with strong opinions, so continue to re-direct me down a more correct path if I'm being stupid here...

Anyway, I can't help but note that the petrochemical industry is already benefiting from the Federal Government, while the poor, black refugees may be faced with living in the Astrodome for months. No jobs, no homes, living in a seat you call home...


I disagree that the looters are trying to get back what they think they deserve. No, I think desperate people take desperate measures.
I really don't wish to argue this point, 'cause I agree with you. Except that some of the looters have been recorded as saying essentially this.

I would be the first one in to raid a convenience store for diapers, baby formula, necessary food-stuffs for starving people. But HUNDREDS of stores and casinos are being looted for shoes, jewelry, jeans, sports jerseys, household goods, whatever they can. These are not merely "deseperate people taking desperate measures." The Nike's just aren't going to sustain life for long. No, these are acts of rebellion, of acting for the sake of acting.

What I'm saying is that there are deeply seated socio-economical/class reasons for this, and that I believe it is wholly related to the fact that the impoverished blacks will continue to be the hardest-hit victims of Katrina long after the levees are rebuilt, long after the streets of the French Quarter dry up. There is a systems phenomenon that we are watching, and we all have played our role in bringing it to pass.

The impoverished black folks of New Orleans know that the white people (and yes, the more affluent black people) will file insurance claims, receive federal assistance, and rebuild on higher ground. All the poor, black people are gonna get is a couple of TVs and some Reeboks, and that they'll have to take while no one's watching. They know that they'll continue to be housed in vulnerable housing in undesirable parts of town. They know they'll lose everything again the next time a storm like this comes by (and it could happen anytime...they just barely dodged the bullet last year). And they know that protecting them in the future isn't going to be this administration's highest priority. That will be reserved for the Port of New Orleans, the oil refineries, and the other industries that continue to either discriminate against them or undervalue them. For hell's sake, this administration just approved the privlege for older power plants to emit MORE air pollution, thus undermining the Clean Air Act, and possibly further contributing to environmental factors that could further add to the threat of killer hurricanes! That's what I'm talking about. Why wouldn't they loot? What else do they have?

Again: where were the churches to help get these people out? Why are they not now opening their doors (in adjacent areas, of course) as shelters? We've gotta bus 20,000 people six hours to Houston because not even one church would take even one family in? That's more appalling to me than some of these survivor stories.

Amen, sister...amen.

Peter_Mary

[peter_mary]

Careful - I can tell you that I don't have that mindset and I know of many who don't.

Fear not, Silverfox, mine was not an indictment of individual Americans. There are LOTS of us who "don't have that mindset."

But it IS an indictment of how our society continues to polarize along economic and racial lines. These are problems we inherited long, long ago, and aside from a few key policy makers (ahem), it would be unfair to point fingers at you, or me, or most average Americans.

But if my conversation with Dogzilla about this issue makes anyone uncomfortable, then I submit that it's time to evaluate why. What is it about the condition of race and poverty in places like the deep South, inner Kansas City, Chicago, East LA, Harlem, Detroit etc. that keeps us from engaging this issue in a meanginful way?

It's so easy to not be concerned with this issue here in Utah or Idaho, because we aren't faced with it every day. It's even easy to be sympathetic to "those poor people" because we know WE wouldn't behave that way if WE lived there. Would we?

Well, that's all fantasy (and if I'm getting fired up, dear Silverfox, it's not AT you, merely WITH you!) The truth is, millions of white Americans live shoulder to shoulder with their fellow black Americans, and the problem keeps getting worse. That should tell us something. It IS telling us something. It's screaming at the top of its lungs...but we're not listening.

Katrina just amplified that shouting to a deafening cry, and all I'm saying is that dear God, let's hear it!

I know that on this board, I'm probably preaching to the choir. Many of you indicated that along with coming out of Mormonism, you also shed some of your more rabid conservative outer-wear. Frankly, this tends to be a fairly liberal forum, and I believe in part that's why dogzilla felt it appropriate and safe to encourage a sympathetic outpouring of support for the Red Cross on this thread...she knew we'd listen.

But sympathy isn't enough. We need to, as a country, look at the gillions of tiny little things we do every day that contribute to the crisis that just boiled over in a swamp-land in Louisiana. All I'm saying is that this is bigger than a hurricane. Much bigger.

Peace, my friends,

Peter_Mary

[Why-Me, you can wipe that smug smile off your face! :p )

[peter_mary]

From the Associated Press:

NEW ORLEANS (AP) - The mayor said Wednesday that Katrina probably killed thousands of people in New Orleans - an estimate that, if accurate, would make the storm by far the nation's deadliest hurricane in more than a century.

"We know there is a significant number of dead bodies in the water," and other people dead in attics, Mayor Ray Nagin said. Asked how many, he said: "Minimum, hundreds. Most likely, thousands."

The frightening estimate came as Army engineers struggled to plug New Orleans' breached levees with giant sandbags and concrete barriers, while authorities drew up plans to clear out the tens of thousands of people left in the Big Easy and all but abandon the flooded-out city.

Staggering. Simply staggering.

Peter_Mary

[helemon]

Using natural disasters as a motivation for brining in more tithing goes back to Lorenzo Snow. I see nothing has changed.

Now, I've been pondering what he might do for the people in Louisiana, Mississippi and Alabama. What could he come up with if he went there to give a speech. Hey, I've got it, let's look back at the April Conference and Elder Lynn G. Robbins Of the Seventy. He gave a talk entitled "Tithing—a Commandment Even for the Destitute." All we have to do here is review, from his talk, what Hinckley said to the victims of Hurricane Mitch, which in October of 1998, devastated many parts of Central America. This will help us to know what he might say to these hundreds of thousands of people in Louisiana, Mississippi and Alabama, that were left homeless and without anything. No food, no clothes, nothing.

So here it is, what Hinckley will say when or if he goes to visit them(See if the conditions sound familiar):

President Gordon B. Hinckley was very concerned for the victims of this disaster, many of whom lost everything—food, clothing, and household goods. He visited the Saints in the cities of San Pedro Sula and Tegucigalpa, Honduras; and Managua, Nicaragua. And like the words of the loving prophet Elijah to a starving widow, this modern prophet's message in each city was similar—to sacrifice and be OBEDIENT TO THE LAW OF TITHING.

But how can you ask someone so destitute to sacrifice? President Hinckley knew that the food and clothing shipments they received would help them survive the crisis, but his concern and love for them went far beyond that. As important as humanitarian aid is, he knew that the most important assistance comes from God, not from man. The prophet wanted to help them unlock the windows of heaven as promised by the Lord in the book of Malachi (see Malachi 3:10; Mosiah 2:24).

President Hinckley taught them that if they would PAY THEIR TITHING, they would always have food on their tables, they would always have clothing on their backs, and they would always have a roof over their heads.

http://www.lds.org/conference/talk/display/0,5232,23-1-520-13,00.html

What is Hinckley, just a modern day con artist? He should go work at the circus and carnivals!! How could a man be so cold, so heartless and despicable. These people lost EVERYTHING and all he can think of is PAY YOUR TITHING!! What a scumbag!! He should be ashamed of himself but it's hard to be ashamed of yourself when you know no shame!!

If you are a "TBM", on the fence on whether you should leave the Church, have a few doubts about things, I hope that these amazing comments by President Hinckley will be just what you needed to exit out of the Mormon Cult that preys and robs from the poor, homeless and those that in reality have nothing.

I wonder how his ridiculous promise applied to those that were already paying their tithing and now had no "roof over their head", no "food on their table" and only the clothes on their backs, just like the people now that just got hit by this hurricane, they had nothing. But hey you homeless, starving, on the verge of death people, PAY ME YOUR DAMN TITHING SO THAT GOD WILL BLESS YOU!! HE WOULD LOVE TO OPEN THOSE WINDOWS BUT HE'S WAITING FOR YOUR TITHING FIRST!! JUST BECAUSE YOU HAVE LOST EVERYTHING, HAVE NOTHING, THAT IS NO EXCUSE. PAY ME NOW!!

Samuel the Utahnite

http://mormontruth.blogspot.com/

[peter_mary]

From the Associated Press:

New Orleans' homeland security chief, Terry Ebbert, said looters were breaking into stores all over town and stealing guns. He said there are gangs of armed men moving around the city. At one point, officers stranded on the roof of a hotel were fired at by criminals on the street.

The Times-Picayune newspaper reported that the gun section at a new Wal-Mart had been cleaned out by looters.

Authorities said an officer was shot in the head and a looter was wounded in a shootout. The officer was expected to survive.

This is the rebellion I spoke about. This is about powerless people taking back some power...for now.

Peter_Mary

[dogzilla]

I don't really disagree with you Peter_Mary, and I appreciate your clarifications for the benefit of those who are not as familiar with the demographics. Just wanted to make sure that people realize that that is a significant proportion of the non-white population that owns property and businesses and share the same concerns as the white folks, just as there is a significant population of poor white people who happen to be swamp-dwellers rather than city dwellers. You are not seeing those people because they can't be gotten to quite yet.

But you are right: this is so much bigger than a hurricane.

On a lighter note: I am anxiously awaiting the next ignorant, rage-inducing comments from Pat Robertson! :p

[helemon]

From the Associated Press:

This is the rebellion I spoke about. This is about powerless people taking back some power...for now.

Peter_Mary

I don't disagree that there is a complex interplay of socio economic factors contributing to this behavior, but I also wonder if the African American community isn't doing itself a grave diservice by glorifying violence, and crime through their Thug Life, and Gangsta music styles. While I respect that artists have a right to express themselves and the things they see occurring in their neighborhoods, but I think they need to also think about how these artists are perpetuating racial stereotypes that allow others groups in the nation to view African Americans as a group of lawless criminals that should be shunned and not trusted.

I read that the majority of rap music is purchased by rich white kids. Why? Perhaps because it scares the hell out of their rich parents, who then want to move even further away from low income neighborhoods and live behind gated communities.

While I understand your point about people trying to take back power, just imagine what kind of message it would have sent America if these people had refused to engage in these activities. I also agree with you in saying that you see nothing wrong in taking the essentials to survive in a situation such as that where there is no way to purchase these things legally. But stealing non-essential items I think is less defensible.

In the end though the larger merchants probably don't care too much. They undoubtably have insurance policies that will allow them to cover their losses. But what about the smaller merchants who are probably just getting by? Looting just makes merchants even more leary to invest in the community which further impoverishes those who are struggling to survive there. So while I can understand why people might feel entitled to take these things, I have a hard time agreeing that they are justified or that such actions can in anyway help eliminate the conditions they are struggling to overcome.

[helemon]

On a lighter note: I am anxiously awaiting the next ignorant, rage-inducing comments from Pat Robertson! :p

You know he will blame all this on God punishing the wickedness of that town. New Orleans is known for the lasivious nature of Mardi Gra and I am sure the overt celebration of debauchery embodied by that celebration will be noted by pastors across the country as justification for why the hurricane hit where it did. Muslim Imams used the sex crimes of South Asia as the reason why God set the Tsunami to wipe out Achai. I doubt our Christian preachers will make a very different interpretation of Katrina.

Mormon leaders however may try to pin the blame on lack of tithing being paid by members. :duh

[peter_mary]

So while I can understand why people might feel entitled to take these things, I have a hard time agreeing that they are justified or that such actions can in anyway help eliminate the conditions they are struggling to overcome.

You're not ever going to hear from me that people are EVER justified in stealing stuff just to steal. Nope, not gonna happen. Sustaining life is one thing, looting to loot is another, and it's wrong.

But that's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that when people feel powerless, they take power where they can. You and me and dogzilla and silverfox et al are not personally responsible for the powerlessness of the black people (and as dogzilla has reminded me, the poor white people, too) in the poor inner cities and living in the surrounding swamplands. But we ARE a part of the greater society that isn't willing to really do what it takes to change that. It isn't our reality, and so we don't engage in the debate, or facilitate the solution.

These looters are borrowing power...something I can't even begin to understand because all my life I've been a member of the most powerful group on earth...white American males.

What you're hearing from me is the recognition, at least on my part, that the crisis in New Orleans won't be solved when the streets have been mopped up. The crisis is SO much deeper. And we can philosophize and moralize about the example they are setting, the stereotypes they are perpetuating, and that "they really ought to re-think that strategy," but what I personally am trying to come to grips with is that all of that talk is only sensible coming from people who are educated, well-fed, employed, sitting fairly high on the Maslow's hiearchy of needs. I really DON'T know how gangsta rap and the thug image makes sense to powerless kids in a city with no escape. It might make a HELL of a lot more sense than Kenny Chesney's latest Caribean Country Music hit...and I'm not likely to ever know if I can't engage in the discussion with the very people who DO understand it...many of whom are looting a Wal Mart in New Orleans as we speak....

I should probably shut up...I'm probably not making any friends here...but as you can see, this is affecting me deeply.

Peter_Mary

[helemon]

I should probably shut up...I'm probably not making any friends here...but as you can see, this is affecting me deeply.

Peter_Mary

I don't think you are making any enemies. The only trouble is that I think most people in society feel powerless to do anything to change these environments and those with power feel little incentive to change these environments.

What will be interesting is to see how the inner cities are transformed as oil resources are depleted forcing people out of their suburban neighborhoods and country estates and into the city. Will we see a reverse trend where the rich take over the inner city and the poor are pushed out to the sticks?

[dogzilla]

[in true New Orleans style]

Show me your t*ts.

:: tosses beads to Peter_Mary ::

Feel better, buddy? That White Guilt's a b**ch, ain't it?

:p


P.S. Wal Mart deserves it. It's the mom n pop shops I'm more concerned about. Personally, I think if you're this fired up, you should get your ass into a truck or your SUV and get down there with some ice and food and water and help out at a shelter somewhere. Go help the Humane Society paddle around in canoes, rescuing dogs and cats abandoned by their terrified owners. Ladle out food at a Red Cross shelter. Bring your flippin' Mountain Man axe and help bust some starving people outta their attics. Don't just sit up there in your Ivory White Bread Tower proclaiming your truths. Raid your damn food storage and feed it to people who really, really need it right now.

Here's how you can help: http://www.fema.gov/press/2005/resources_katrina.shtm
(After checking) Nope... No LDS church on that list. ;)

Sorry for the profanities, y'all. Having been through so many storms that were never nearly as bad... it's hard for me to control my emotions. There, but for the grace of god, go I.

In other horrifying news: This weekend is the opening football game for Florida State, who will be playing their rivals, Miami U. Because many football fans have had reservations for months in advance, the hotels are actually asking hurricane refugees, who actually made it to Tallahassee to hole up in the hotels, to CHECK OUT and GO SOMEWHERE ELSE. Because football always takes precedence over humanity. Football: The Other Religion. :mad:

[cactus jack]

I don't watch TV much, so other than what I hear word of mouth the news is internet. And as of yet I havn't heard anything on the LDS helping in this crisis.

But I know what I have seen first hand in several crisis' in the past. The LDS was there. From the beginning to the end.

So while I may not like them as a religion, they are among the best organization to help in a crisis like this, better than the ARC. I used to be a volunteer with the ARC. The ARC is, for the most part, a mediocre bunch. The LDS surpasses them.

One of the exceedingly few good points about mormons. Only other good points is the pro-family ads & teachings and the highest per capita of hot young single babes per ward (compared to other churchs, of course).

[Born Free]

Americans seem to learn from tragedies and then quickly forget what they have learned. The society is fast paced and forgetful. Who remembers thailand anymore? It is far from the consciousness. What happened in New Orleans is connected to the total disregard of human welfare. We build homes in dangerous locations for profit and gain only to watch nature do its work and destroy the property that was built. Something is at work here unseen to the human eye. What has been happening is a warning that we all need to get our society away from the profit motive and begin to build communities which respect the natural order and resect life that does not belong to the human species. The rain forests are disappearing, mud shacks are being built on hillsides in the third world the climate has been changing and greed is rampant and is the desire for unsustainable growth. Also we seem to live in a social darwinist world...the strong survive...the weak die. We have become individualists, except when an emergency happpens but we need to think more collectively before an emergency happens. I am sure that the LDS church is doing its part in helping the victims....but the scope of the tragedy is still unfolding...and it is difficult to get to the victims. Nature is god and we humans are just specks of sand in a universe gone mad, thanks in part to our disrespect of natural elements.

Why Me,

Can you climb down off your socialist soap box for just two seconds?

When the tsunami hit the Indian Ocean, poor villages who lived where people had lived for centuries (they live off the ocean, so in their case it just happens to work to be close by the ocean so they don't have to cycle or walk miles to go to work fishing each day) were wiped out just like everyone else. Christian, Buddhists, Muslims, communists, socialists, capitalists, rich or poor - 'Acts of God' do not discriminate.

Where in God's name did filthy, exploitive, consumerist, capitalism feature in that equation? Have you ever checked out how many people have died in the various disasters in China.

Here is an extract from an article that ran in the Sydney Morning Herald just after the tsunami last year.

"By any of the above counts, the earthquake off Sumatra rates as a human tragedy, but is far short of the worst events of the past 100 years or so as humanity stretched and squeezed into an increasingly vulnerable planet.

If the measurement is loss of life then the 14,000-plus casualties of Sumatra pale in comparison to the earthquake that struck Tianjin in China on July 27, 1976. The official casualty figure issued by the Chinese government was 255,000, but unofficial estimates of the death toll were as high as 655,000.

A list published by the US Geological Survey includes a string of earthquakes where the death toll is measured in the tens of thousands. These include 200,000 deaths in Ningxia-Kansu, China in 1920; 143,000 in Kanto, Japan in 1923; 70,000 in Messina, Italy in 1908; and 66,000 in Peru in 1970. More recently, 50,000 died in western Iran on June 20, 1990; 41,000 in Bam, Iran in December last year; 25,000 in Armenia in December 1988, and 20,000 in Gujarat, India in January 2001."

All it takes is the smallest stimulation, and you are off on one of your anti-capitalist tirades. How about "shit happens" whether you are a commo or a capitalist?

And in case you haven't checked it out, pollution was worse in Russia under the communists than in Western Europe under filthy capitalists. Chernobyl happened in a communist country, not a capitalist one.

As for "Nature is god and we humans are just specks of sand in a universe gone mad". Give me one shred of evidence that it is more mad now than at any point in history. We now know Mars had water and an atmosphere at some point in its past. It's gone now. Maybe capitalists caused Mars to lose its atmosphere too.

BTW, have you ever noticed how the more you are ranting, the more you fail to punctuate? How many of us have asked you to punctuate? (Maybe punctuation is a capitalist tool eh?)

But, don't let a few facts get in the way of a good rant! Climb back up onto your soap box, and bang on! :rolleyes:

Sorry, but I thought the issue here is human suffering, empathy and treatment of people differently based upon biases.

Daryl

[miss taken]

Hey Dogzilla, we are getting it all on the news here. Still can't quite take it in, because we were led to believe that everything was going to be okay, because Katrina was losing strength, and was going to miss New Orleans.

I feel a bit helpless over here in the UK, hope Bush and the millitiary and all the folks over there get on top of the situation.


Mary

[dogzilla]

I must post a correction. I've railed and railed about how the LDS church doesn't open their wards for hurricane shelters and doesn't share food storage and stuff...

:: gets out salt, pepper, and hot sauce to eat words ::

The local LDS stake center here in Tallahassee IS open as a hurricane shelter and is taking in refugees from all over the Gulf Coast. In fact, it's the ONLY hurricane shelter in Tallahasee (there's at least a dozen) that is open right now.

We've got people all over town right now and grocery stores are giving away thousands in supplies. Lowe's and Home Depot are selling out of generators for people to take back to Mississippi/Alabama/Louisiana.

I was wrong. Sometimes the LDS church helps people. :duh

My, my words are tasty! :cool:

[dogzilla]

Oh, and for those of you at far reaches of the globe...

To give you some perspective, Tallahassee is almost 400 miles from New Orleans. It takes about five hours to drive there from here (the way I drive, so maybe six hours for most normal people :D) . Gulfport is about four hours away, Biloxi is about three and a half, and Pensacola is about three hours away. Here, we got just barely the tail ends of the edges of the hurricane -- about 20 mph gusts and a very small amount of rain. People drove 8-10 hours on packed roads just to get here, out of harm's way.

[helemon]

You're not ever going to hear from me that people are EVER justified in stealing stuff just to steal. Nope, not gonna happen. Sustaining life is one thing, looting to loot is another, and it's wrong.


I thought you would find the captions of these images interesting:


White people finding things to eat
http://news.yahoo.com/photo/050830/photos_ts_afp/050830071810_shxwaoma_photo1

A black man looting things to eat
http://news.yahoo.com/photo/050830/480/ladm10208301530

[peter_mary]

I thought you would find the captions of these images interesting:

Helemon,

This is a stunning example of racism in action. The captions lead you to feel sorry for the white people...they are victims trying to survive, while you are lead to lable as President Bush has, the black man as a common criminal.

This is how racism subtley and incidiously continues to define how we respond to places like New Orleans. Thank you so much for finding this, and posting it.

Peter_Mary

[dogzilla]

I saw several white looters on the cable news footage last night.

I think things are breaking down way beyond the lines of race or demographics. Regardless, I don't think you are entirely wrong, P_M. Sadly.

[helemon]

Sorry, but I thought the issue here is human suffering, empathy and treatment of people differently based upon biases.

Daryl

But doesn't that factor into what Why Me was saying? In our rush to develop land for human use to often we forget to look at how Mother Nature has designed the land to handle these natural disasters. We see a swamp and think we should drain it so we can build houses, instead of trying to understand the important role that swamps and wetlands play when weather like this happens. Humans too often think only of what they want and then end up fighting against nature to hold on to it. I think part of this is due to the fact that we are just know starting to understand the roles swamps and wetlands play in the ecosystem.

I agree with you that ecological damage has also been horrible in communist nations. I think the problem there is that these governments also fail to consider the long term environmental consequences of their actions focusing instead on the short term human benefits. I think capitalism is a better system for keeping businesses honest as long as there is government oversight and enforcement of laws to keep business practices legit and to prevent them from destroying the common resources on which we all depend in the name of profit.

As for the racial biases and where people live, that goes back for millennia. The rich have always selected the choicest land for themselves and pushed the poor onto the infertile, disease infested land. The word malaria comes from the Latin for bad air around swamps that the Romans thought was the cause of the disease rather than the mosquitoes that infested the swamp. The rich preferred to live up on the hills where the air was better, while the poor lived near the swamp where the land was cheaper.

New Orleans like Nauvoo is built on "reclaimed" swampland. Nature did not intend for humans to live there, but humans used their ingenuity to build there anyway, and now we see what happens when Nature reclaims the land from human endeavor. Yes, it is tragic; but instead of simply bemoaning the tragedy, civil engineers, real estate developers, architects, and politicians, need to start thinking about ways to build in harmony with nature's processes rather than trying to conquer her. While we may be able to hold her at bay for a while she will never be conquered and if we are to survive as a species we need to start working with her rather than against her.

[silverfox]

You're not ever going to hear from me that people are EVER justified in stealing stuff just to steal. Nope, not gonna happen. Sustaining life is one thing, looting to loot is another, and it's wrong.

It isn't our reality, and so we don't engage in the debate, or facilitate the solution.


Peter_Mary

I am familiar with this reality. I grew up in a large impoverished inner city. I survived race riots. (we didnt' evacuate although we were told to) I lived a block from the projects until I was 14. I, little miss whitie, was a minority in my 'hood.

A huge part of my impressionable life was spent surrounded by race conflicts and poverty. I've witnessed what both of those are capable of.

I feel for these victims. When you have lived in it sometimes you can better understand the anger, the resentment, the desparation. I don't tolerate the violence but I understand where the anger comes from.

If I had no food, water, etc for a few days or knew I wasn't going to have it and didnt' have the means to get it - hell even cash right now is worthless, the stores are all closed - I'd be looting. I'd be looting to feed my kids - hell, any kids who needed it.

I agree it's wrong to loot just cuz you can. I kinda laught at it all. Where you gonna take those TVs people? Back to your flooded homes with no electricity?

I think the govt could have been better prepared and organized for the aftermath. Seriously, what did they think was gonna happen?

[helemon]

I think the govt could have been better prepared and organized for the aftermath. Seriously, what did they think was gonna happen?

Well, they are a bit short handed dealing with the reconstruction of Iraq. :duh

[helemon]

On a lighter note: I am anxiously awaiting the next ignorant, rage-inducing comments from Pat Robertson! :p
How's this:
http://www.repentamerica.com/pr_hurricanekatrina.html
HURRICANE KATRINA DESTROYS NEW ORLEANS
DAYS BEFORE "SOUTHERN DECADENCE" 8/31/05

PHILADELPHIA - Just days before "Southern Decadence", an annual homosexual celebration attracting tens of thousands of people to the French Quarters section of New Orleans, Hurricane Katrina destroys the city.

"Southern Decadence" has a history of filling the French Quarters section of the city with drunken homosexuals engaging in sex acts in the public streets and bars. Last year, a local pastor sent video footage of sex acts being performed in front of police to the mayor, city council, and the media. City officials simply ignored the footage and continued to welcome and praise the weeklong celebration as being an "exciting event". However, Hurricane Katrina has put an end to the annual celebration of sin.

On the official "Southern Decadence" website (www.SouthernDecadence.com), it states that the annual event brought in "125,000 revelers" to New Orleans last year, increasing by thousands each year, and up from "over 50,000 revelers" in 1997. This year’s 34th annual "Southern Decadence" was set for Wednesday, August 31, 2005 through Monday, September 5, 2005, but due to massive flooding and the damage left by the hurricane, Louisiana Governor Kathleen Blanco has ordered everyone to evacuate the city.

The past three mayors of New Orleans, including Sidney Barthelomew, Marc H. Morial, and C. Ray Nagin, issued official proclamations welcoming visitors to "Southern Decadence". Additionally, New Orleans City Council made other proclamations recognizing the annual homosexual celebration.

"Although the loss of lives is deeply saddening, this act of God destroyed a wicked city," stated Repent America director Michael Marcavage. "From 'Girls Gone Wild' to 'Southern Decadence,' New Orleans was a city that had its doors wide open to the public celebration of sin. From the devastation may a city full of righteousness emerge," he continued.

New Orleans is also known for its Mardi Gras parties where thousands of drunken men revel in the streets to exchange plastic jewelry for drunken women to expose their breasts. This annual event sparked the creation of the "Girls Gone Wild" video series.

"We must help and pray for those ravaged by this disaster, but let us not forget that the citizens of New Orleans tolerated and welcomed the wickedness in their city for so long," Marcavage said. "May this act of God cause us all to think about what we tolerate in our city limits, and bring us trembling before the throne of Almighty God," Marcavage concluded.

[dogzilla]

I just read that story, Helamon! I suppose Robertson is sorely disappointed that these nutjobs beat him to the punch.

[flotsam]

NEW ORLEANS, LA - In a fit of divine anger God canned angels of destruction Gabriel Kikkobeam and Elija Kolob, both in charge of scheduling Hurricane Katrina.

"You idiots, can't you do anything right?" thundered the Most High. "I specifically told you to send Katrina through during the fag parade! I wanted those self-abusers with their leather, lipstick and public sex acts wiped off the map like the family destroyers they are."

God is now having to answer to Pat Robertson, who is not feeling merciful.

"I thought we had an agreement," said Robertson in a press conference, "I've provided the believers, the money and the political power just like I promised, and now God goes and screws the whole thing up."

Robertson said he is seriously considering removing his support from God and taking over the divine throne himself.

[flotsam]

NEW ORLEANS, LA - God tendered his regrets today to Louisiana, citing His divine apology for "technichal difficulties beyond our control in the precision guidance system of Hurrican Katrina."

The hurricane, touted in the heavenly courts as the best medium of divine vengance since the laser guided meteors used in the destruction of Sodom and Gammorah, apparently went off course, arriving in Louisianna days before it could have wiped out an estimated 125,000 homosexuals during their annual festival.

God claimed that he has nothing against the sick, lame and destitute people who died in the hurricane. "Somehow they just always get in the way," He said. "I mean, they're everywhere. Can't somebody do sometihng about these people? What the hell do you think I invented capitalism for?"

God pledged millions of dollars, and as many angel hours, in the development of the next natural disaster's guidance system.

"I sincerely hope the next doozy takes out only the evil," said God.

[peter_mary]

Fltosam,

You crack me up! Loved your little tidbit there!

And holy crap, Batman, but I assume from the religious rant Helemon found (how DOES he do that?) that ONLY homesexuals died in Hurricane Katrina? And I'm just CERTAIN that ONLY homosexual's homes were destroyed? Of course, it goes without saying then, that all those miserable souls being bussed to Houston and San Antonio were either homosexuals or perverts of another brand, so they got what they deserved, right? No good Southern Baptist or other Churches were destroyed by THIS Hurricane, right? They have been miraculously preserved, right?

Right?

:(

Peter_Mary

[helemon]

Fltosam,

You crack me up! Loved your little tidbit there!

And holy crap, Batman, but I assume from the religious rant Helemon found (how DOES he do that?) that ONLY homesexuals died in Hurricane Katrina? And I'm just CERTAIN that ONLY homosexual's homes were destroyed? Of course, it goes without saying then, that all those miserable souls being bussed to Houston and San Antonio were either homosexuals or perverts of another brand, so they got what they deserved, right? No good Southern Baptist or other Churches were destroyed by THIS Hurricane, right? They have been miraculously preserved, right?

Right?

:(

Peter_Mary

I'll let you in on my secret, RfM. Think of me as your RfM filter bringing you choice tidbits of chat from the other board.

A poster there made a good point. If God sent Katrina as punishment for the Gays why didn't he wait until they were all in town and engaging in their sinful debauchery? By sending it when he did God spared the lived of hundreds if not thousands of gays!

[elder_nomo]

I'll let you in on my secret, RfM. Think of me as your RfM filter bringing you choice tidbits of chat from the other board.

A poster there made a good point. If God sent Katrina as punishment for the Gays why didn't he wait until they were all in town and engaging in their sinful debauchery? By sending it when he did God spared the lived of hundreds of thousands of gays!
Helemon, P_M - It's not that all the citizens of New Orleans *are* gay, it's that they *tolerate* gays... See, it's not enough to follow the straight and narrow yourself - you've got to actively shun/persecute those who don't follow your code.

Flotsam - that was inspired. I was rolling on the floor from the first one, but the second was even better.

[helemon]

http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,372455,00.html
In 2001, FEMA warned that a hurricane striking New Orleans was one of the three most likely disasters in the U.S. But the Bush administration cut New Orleans flood control funding by 44 percent to pay for the Iraq war.

A year ago the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers proposed to study how New Orleans could be protected from a catastrophic hurricane, but the Bush administration ordered that the research not be undertaken. After a flood killed six people in 1995, Congress created the Southeast Louisiana Urban Flood Control Project, in which the Corps of Engineers strengthened and renovated levees and pumping stations. In early 2001, the Federal Emergency Management Agency issued a report stating that a hurricane striking New Orleans was one of the three most likely disasters in the U.S., including a terrorist attack on New York City. But by 2003 the federal funding for the flood control project essentially dried up as it was drained into the Iraq war. In 2004, the Bush administration cut funding requested by the New Orleans district of the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers for holding back the waters of Lake Pontchartrain by more than 80 percent. Additional cuts at the beginning of this year (for a total reduction in funding of 44.2 percent since 2001) forced the New Orleans district of the Corps to impose a hiring freeze. The Senate had debated adding funds for fixing New Orleans' levees, but it was too late.
:mad:

I hope America sends the Republicans a strong signal in 06!! 40 more years of Repbulican control? God let's hope not!

[papa]

good one, flotsam...

great posts all.

and now for something truly offensive (cue the Python theme)...

Lard knows the storm wasn't to punish gay folks--it was to "return the love" the US gave to Baghdad.

Karma is so amusing...

[papa]

In this case, ironically the LDS church may be the best vehicle for donations for the victims:

"Don't Give Your Hurricane Donations to the Red Cross
Establishment charities have history of withholding disaster funds

Paul Joseph Watson & Alex Jones | September 1 2005

As the aftermath of hurricane Katrina continues to wreak mayhem and havoc amid reports of mass looting, shooting at rescue helicopters, rapes and murders, establishment media organs are promoting the Red Cross as a worthy organization to give donations to.

The biggest website in the world, Yahoo.com, displays a Red Cross donation link prominently on its front page.

Every time there is a major catastrophe the Red Cross and similar organizations like United Way are given all the media attention while other charities are left in the shadows. This is not to say that the vast majority of Red Cross workers are not decent people who simply want to help those in need.

But what the media fails consistently to remember in their promotion of the organization is that the Red Cross have been caught time and time again withholding money in the wake of horrible disasters that require immediate release of funds.

The Red Cross, under the Liberty Fund, collected $564 million in donations after 9/11. Months after the event, the Red Cross had distributed only $154 million. The Red Cross' explanation for keeping the majority of the money was that it would be used to help 'fight the war on terror'. To the victims, this meant that the money was going towards bombing broken backed third world countries like Afghanistan and setting up surveillance cameras and expanding the police state in US cities, and not towards helping them rebuild their lives.

Then Red Cross President Dr. Bernadine Healy arrogantly responded when questioned about the withholding of funds by stating, "The Liberty Fund is a war fund. It has evolved into a war fund."

Despite the family members of victims of 9/11 complaining bitterly to a House Energy and Commerce Committee's oversight panel, the issue seemed to be brushed under the carpet and the mud didn't stick.

The Red Cross' scandalous activities reach back far before 9/11.

After the devastating San Francisco earthquake in 1989, the Red Cross passed on only $10 million of the $50 million that had been raised, and banked the rest.

Similar donations after the Oklahoma City bombing in 1995 and the Red River flooding in 1997 were also greedily withheld.

Smaller charities that were involved with the 2004 Tsunami relief project went public to say that large charities like Red Cross and United Way were engaged in secret backroom negotiations with each other that meant a large portion of the donation money was purposefully restricted from reaching the most needy areas affected by the disaster.

The history is clear, the Red Cross and other large so-called charities are in actual fact front group collection agencies for the military industrial complex.

Many informed historians have even alleged that the Red Cross was used as a Skull and Bones cover to overthrow The Russian Czar and pave the way for the rise of the Bolsheviks.

Do not give any money to the Red Cross unless you support the expansion of empire abroad and police state at home. Find a smaller trustworthy organization in the local area of New Orleans and make your donation to them."

[helemon]

http://www.gawker.com/news/condoleezza-rice/index.php#breaking-condi-rice-spends-salary-on-shoes-123467
at the Ferragamo on 5th Avenue, Condoleeza Rice was seen spending several thousands of dollars on some nice, new shoes (we’ve confirmed this, so her new heels will surely get coverage from the WaPo’s Robin Givhan). A fellow shopper, unable to fathom the absurdity of Rice’s timing, went up to the Secretary and reportedly shouted, “How dare you shop for shoes while thousands are dying and homeless!” Never one to have her fashion choices questioned, Rice had security PHYSICALLY REMOVE the woman. :Puking

[why me]

Be careful -
Why the warning? How many Americans can tell me where Aceh is located? How many can tell me where Thailand is located or Burma? I think that it is very difficult to remember a tragedy if a person does not know where it took place. It then becomes lost in the mind somewhere. Sorry silverfox but americans have short term memories when it comes to tragedies that have not affected them. Our society in general is not a contemplative society...contemplatation can kill the happiness. In order to buy how we americans buy, we need to only think for the moment. If we contemplate the actions that we are engaged it or we contemplate the causes for such tragedies for a long period of time, we may not spend the money. For example, americans buy sneakers and yet many sneakers are made in the third world by children or by people who are paid a low income. That is a tragedy. Do we contemplate the tragedy when we buy a pair of sneakers? No, most choose to forget the source and focus on the price. The tragedy in New Orleans is one of poverty now compounded by poverty. But for most of us, we have come to accept poverty as a way of life. What did the figures show this week---poverty has increased in America and more and more americans are spending more than they earn. The buying drug is very powerful but it does not foster contemplation or reflection. That is my opinion. Now about the floating casinos in Biloxi...it is amazing that weath can live side by side with poverty but when nature speaks it can equalize the playing field. I think we need to be creating a contemplative and reflective society which asks good questions about the way life is being lived today and seeks alternatives to unsustainable consumerism, and more just economic imperatives which create equalizers and not gaps. And a more general long term outlook outside the 'buy now---die later' mentality of modern life. And fostering a society that creates long term memories. Why the warning silverfox?
How many americans remember agent orange? Vietnamese are still feeling the effects of that american campaign during the vietnam war...and how many remember the earthquake which hit Iran two years ago?It killed scores of people and leveled an entire city? Don't we all more or less forget tragedies in order to survive through life? Before the hurricane, Niger was staving, and still is starving and what about Darfur? How many of us remember Darfur when we went shopping and ate our Big Macs? It woud be interesting to know...

[why me]

Why Me,

Can you climb down off your socialist soap box for just two seconds?

When the tsunami hit the Indian Ocean, poor villages who lived where people had lived for centuries (they live off the ocean, so in their case it just happens to work to be close by the ocean so they don't have to cycle or walk miles to go to work fishing each day) were wiped out just like everyone else. Christian, Buddhists, Muslims, communists, socialists, capitalists, rich or poor - 'Acts of God' do not discriminate.

Where in God's name did filthy, exploitive, consumerist, capitalism feature in that equation? Have you ever checked out how many people have died in the various disasters in China.

Here is an extract from an article that ran in the Sydney Morning Herald just after the tsunami last year.

"By any of the above counts, the earthquake off Sumatra rates as a human tragedy, but is far short of the worst events of the past 100 years or so as humanity stretched and squeezed into an increasingly vulnerable planet.

If the measurement is loss of life then the 14,000-plus casualties of Sumatra pale in comparison to the earthquake that struck Tianjin in China on July 27, 1976. The official casualty figure issued by the Chinese government was 255,000, but unofficial estimates of the death toll were as high as 655,000.

A list published by the US Geological Survey includes a string of earthquakes where the death toll is measured in the tens of thousands. These include 200,000 deaths in Ningxia-Kansu, China in 1920; 143,000 in Kanto, Japan in 1923; 70,000 in Messina, Italy in 1908; and 66,000 in Peru in 1970. More recently, 50,000 died in western Iran on June 20, 1990; 41,000 in Bam, Iran in December last year; 25,000 in Armenia in December 1988, and 20,000 in Gujarat, India in January 2001."

All it takes is the smallest stimulation, and you are off on one of your anti-capitalist tirades. How about "shit happens" whether you are a commo or a capitalist?

And in case you haven't checked it out, pollution was worse in Russia under the communists than in Western Europe under filthy capitalists. Chernobyl happened in a communist country, not a capitalist one.

As for "Nature is god and we humans are just specks of sand in a universe gone mad". Give me one shred of evidence that it is more mad now than at any point in history. We now know Mars had water and an atmosphere at some point in its past. It's gone now. Maybe capitalists caused Mars to lose its atmosphere too.

BTW, have you ever noticed how the more you are ranting, the more you fail to punctuate? How many of us have asked you to punctuate? (Maybe punctuation is a capitalist tool eh?)

But, don't let a few facts get in the way of a good rant! Climb back up onto your soap box, and bang on! :rolleyes:

Sorry, but I thought the issue here is human suffering, empathy and treatment of people differently based upon biases.

Daryl
I don't remember mentioning socialism in my post. Did I mention socialism? I don't think so. I gave an explanation of my take on things. The communities that were affected by the tsunami were basically poor and overdeveloped. And yes I think that today poverty is a market problem since it is the market which creates the communities that exist today. Whether it is luxury hotels near the sea coast (practically hugging the sea coast as in thaliland or poor communities that live hand to mouth in fishing villages in makeshift shacks. Plus if I remember correctly there were reports of forests being cut in those areas for human development. I think that we are wrecking havoc with nature and the earth is fragile and each change in nature's development or undevelopment creates an ingredient for tragedies to happen. Dogzilla said something about funding cuts...well if americans desire low taxes where is the money suppose to come from? For better schools, better life quality, good health care, proper housing etc. And if we find floating casinos for fun and play more profitable than stronger levies...it only shows our own mindset about life and what is important for many americans. A society which allows wealth to coexist with poverty is a society heading for its own destruction because it has lost its moral soul. Likewise...a society which stresses a social darwinist mentality is a society which has daily tragedies of displacement and degradation. Only now it is on a much grander scale because those who were poor are now poorer and all have lost everything but the wealthy had insurance...but what about the poor? Is what I what wrote socialist or just human?

[silverfox]

Why the warning?

The warning is in reference to FORUM POLICY. So don't take it personally - just doing my job.

Next time you may want to reword to suggest, "SOME Americans" or even "MANY Americans", if you feel that strongly about it.

[helemon]

I kinda laught at it all. Where you gonna take those TVs people? Back to your flooded homes with no electricity?


From Snoopy on RfM:
A friend of mine has been talking to some ham radio operators near the Gulf coast. It seems that many looters who stole expensive items are trading them for food, water, and needed equipment on the black market which has sprung up.
I dont blame them. The government obviously cares more about property than lives.

So I guess we shouldn't have been so quick to condem these behaviors either. I also don't condem stealing clothes and shoes since the storm probably destroyed everything but the clothes on their back for these people.

[silverfox]

So I guess we shouldn't have been so quick to condem these behaviors either. I also don't condem stealing clothes and shoes since the storm probably destroyed everything but the clothes on their back for these people.

You're absolutely correct. I read that there were people traveling into the city to sell their goods at a very high price. #@$%&@ So I guess tvs and stuff like that do come in handy and have great value to those who can travel in and out.

It makes me really really really feel even more for the law abiding victims who are waiting while suffering while our gov't is getting their $hit together.

Think this would ever happen in whitie tightie Republican Utard? Or Idaho-ho? Oregon?

I best shut up now before I cross that policy line myself.

[helemon]

What has been happening is a warning that we all need to get our society away from the profit motive and begin to build communities which respect the natural order and resect life that does not belong to the human species. The rain forests are disappearing, mud shacks are being built on hillsides in the third world the climate has been changing and greed is rampant and is the desire for unsustainable growth.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1560351,00.html
The Louisiana coastline may have been so badly damaged by the hurricane because manmade engineering of the delta has led to erosion of natural defences, according to the American Society of Civil Engineers.

The engineering of the last 100 years that has reworked the Mississippi delta with thousands of miles of levees and flood barriers to protect communities and aid navigation, has also disturbed natural barriers which traditionally prevented storm surges and protected against hurricanes, says the society.

"Human activity, directly or indirectly, has caused 1,500 square miles of natural coastal barriers to be eroded in the past 50 years. Human activity has clearly been a significant factor in coastal Louisiana land losses, along with subsidence, saltwater intrusion, storm events, barrier island degradation, and relative sea level changes," the society said in a paper last year.

It warned that "New Orleans and surrounding areas would now experience the full force of hurricanes, including storm surges that top levee systems and cause severe flooding as well as high winds".

[nate]

This whole situation is so horrible...and the way it's being handled is infuriating!!

What happened to Homeland Security?

Something to think about...if this had all been caused by a bomb, would federal relief had been faster?

I was watching Jim Lehrer last night on PBS, and he showed people crossing the bridge that had left the convention center because FEMA told them there would be buses there. There were hundreds and hundreds of em...and no buses, no food, nobody. Some of them said they've been walking for 2-3 days with no food and no help in sight.

Then he cut to the head guy of FEMA. He asked him what resources he needed, what he wasn't getting. Dude said, "nothing", we don't need anything, we have everything we need to help these people.

Then he cut to a head guy from Salvation Army. He asked him the same question. He replied, "Money! Immediately!"

Oh, and despite what you hear on the news, these are NOT refugees!! The definition of Refugee is: A person who has been forced to leave their COUNTRY in order to escape war, political oppression, or religious persecution. These are American citizens, American victims, or evacuees, but not refugees.


World's press stunned at hurricane-humbled US
by thejugdish, 9/2/05 17:26 ET

2 September 2005

PARIS - The world's press reacted with disbelief on Friday to mayhem overrunning the hurricane disaster zone in the United States, describing the chaos as reminiscent of a Third World crisis and as a humiliating episode for the superpower.

"Here is a superpower that can crush at will a tinpot dictatorship but then becomes so bogged down in the grisly aftermath of war that it finds itself unable to respond to anything like adequately to the plight of tens of thousands of its own citizens engulfed by a natural calamity," said Britain's Daily Mail newspaper.

"President Bush, his ratings already in free-fall, could pay a high price indeed for his military folly," it said.

Gun-toting looters pillaging stores in the streets, bodies floating in the waters, levees unable to hold back the water, and tales of rape and squalor in the main emergency refuge, the New Orleans Superdome, left foreign commentators stunned.

"Young men have not only been looting with impunity but firing on National Guardsmen. And the authorities still have no idea how many people may have died," London's conservative Daily Telegraph said.

"In Louisiana, Mississippi and Alabama over the past four days, the United States has been struggling to provide the basic necessities of life - food, water and medicine - to the victims of Hurricane Katrina," London's Daily Telegraph said. "Take New Orleans alone. The breached levees remain unrepaired. About 20,000 refugees have been living in appalling squalor in the Superdome sports stadium."

France's Figaro newspaper headlined: "America overwhelmed by catastrophe."

The left-wing Liberation recalled how the Kobe earthquake had humbled a major power.

"But the lesson of New Orleans is even darker," it said.

"A modern city that sinks under the waters and into anarchy is a cruel spectacle for an absolute champion of security like (US President George W.) Bush, who incidentally seems out of his depth," it said.

An apparent lack of preparation for the crisis staggered many papers.

"What really stands out is the clear insufficient investment and contingency measures to protect the population of the Mississippi Delta from a forecast disaster," the paper said.

In Portugal the right-leaning daily Diario de Noticias likened the images of the crisis to a disaster movie or "Liberia or some another Third World nation in trouble."

"It is surprising that the mechanisms of civil protection, especially in such a high-risk zone, are non-existant and so flagrantly inefficient," it wrote in an editorial.

In the United States, newspapers asked the same questions.

"How could the government have been so unready for a crisis that was so widely predicted?" asked The Washington Post, adding that experts had "issued repeated warnings for years about the city's unique topography and vulnerability."

"The sluggish, inicial response ... has embittered and inflamed tens of thousands of people awaiting relief, most of them poor and black and many of them old and sick," said the Post editorial.

Papers highlighted the gap between rich and poor unmasked by the looting and the fact that the most impoverished took the brunt of the disaster.

"If there existed any doubt that in the world's richest country there exist as much social injustice, inequality and poverty as in the Third World these doubts ... have been swept away by the dark and oily waters of the Gulf of Mexico," said the Barcelona-based El Periodico.


And Dogzilla is right about the lack of funding for hurricane prevention and flood control. Check this out:

WASHINGTON -- Despite continuous warnings that a catastrophic hurricane could hit New Orleans, the Bush administration and Congress in recent years have repeatedly cut funding for hurricane preparation and flood control.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-050831corps-story,1,2364215.story?coll=chi-news-hed&ctrack=1&cset=true

January 2001: Bush appoints Joe Allbaugh, from Texas, as head of FEMA. Allbaugh has no previous experience in disaster management.

April 2001: Budget Director Mitch Daniels announces the Bush administration's goal of privatizing much of FEMA's work. In May, Allbaugh confirms that FEMA will be downsized: "Many are concerned that federal disaster assistance may have evolved into both an oversized entitlement program...." he said. "Expectations of when the federal government should be involved and the degree of involvement may have ballooned beyond what is an appropriate level."

2001: FEMA designates a major hurricane hitting New Orleans as one of the three "likeliest, most catastrophic disasters facing this country."

December 2002: After less than two years at FEMA, Allbaugh announces he is leaving to start up a consulting firm that advises companies seeking to do business in Iraq. He is succeeded by his deputy, Michael Brown, who, like Allbaugh, has no previous experience in disaster management.

March 2003: FEMA is downgraded from a cabinet level position and folded into the Department of Homeland Security. Its mission is refocused on fighting acts of terrorism.

2003: Under its new organization chart within DHS, FEMA's preparation and planning functions are reassigned to a new Office of Preparedness and Response. FEMA will henceforth focus only on response and recovery.

Summer 2004: FEMA denies Louisiana's pre-disaster mitigation funding requests. Says Jefferson Parish flood zone manager Tom Rodrigue: "You would think we would get maximum consideration....This is what the grant program called for. We were more than qualified for it."

June 2004: The Army Corps of Engineers budget for levee construction in New Orleans is slashed. Jefferson Parish emergency management chiefs Walter Maestri comments: "It appears that the money has been moved in the president's budget to handle homeland security and the war in Iraq, and I suppose that's the price we pay."

June 2005: Funding for the New Orleans district of the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers is cut by a record $71.2 million. One of the hardest-hit areas is the Southeast Louisiana Urban Flood Control Project, which was created after the May 1995 flood to improve drainage in Jefferson, Orleans and St. Tammany parishes.

[helemon]

June 2005: Funding for the New Orleans district of the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers is cut by a record $71.2 million. One of the hardest-hit areas is the Southeast Louisiana Urban Flood Control Project, which was created after the May 1995 flood to improve drainage in Jefferson, Orleans and St. Tammany parishes.

And now we are paying 10.5 Billion to clean up the mess! :duh

That's good ol' Republican fiscal responsibility! I heard on the news that part of FEMAs problem is that it was moved into Homeland Security and thus has to get approval from them to do anything. This arrangement actually slowed relief efforts rather than facilitating them which is what the dept of HLS was meant to do! Imagine if this had been a terrorist attack! With all that oil, toxic chemicals and disease floating around down there New Orleans is fixing to become one big WMD for the whole Gulf region.

[helemon]

http://www.illwillpress.com/kat.html
warning lots of swearing

[why me]

What the LDS church is doing to help the victims of the disaster can be found at the church website at www.lds.org All missionaries have been accounted for and food and necessary survival equipment is being sent to the area by truckloads. I knew that the LDS church would help out.... :)

[silverfox]

What the LDS church is doing to help the victims of the disaster can be found at the church website at www.lds.org All missionaries have been accounted for and food and necessary survival equipment is being sent to the area by truckloads. I knew that the LDS church would help out.... :)

They know they better what with all the $$$ members give to them.

[helemon]

What the LDS church is doing to help the victims of the disaster can be found at the church website at www.lds.org All missionaries have been accounted for and food and necessary survival equipment is being sent to the area by truckloads. I knew that the LDS church would help out.... :)

Have all members been accounted for?

[nate]

Anyone else think it's weird that of the 24 places FEMA recommends to donate money for the relief effort, Pat Robertson is one of them?

Seriously! Check it out:
http://www.fema.gov/news/newsrelease.fema?id=18473

Operation Blessing was founded by Pat Robertson. And I've NEVER heard him say anything at all nice about New Orleans...only derogatory burn in hell type stuff.

[free thinker]

Operation Blessing was founded by Pat Robertson. And I've NEVER heard him say anything at all nice about New Orleans...only derogatory burn in hell type stuff.


Has he called for the assasination of the mayor yet?


free thinker

[helemon]

Anyone else think it's weird that of the 24 places FEMA recommends to donate money for the relief effort, Pat Robertson is one of them?

Seriously! Check it out:
http://www.fema.gov/news/newsrelease.fema?id=18473

Operation Blessing was founded by Pat Robertson. And I've NEVER heard him say anything at all nice about New Orleans...only derogatory burn in hell type stuff.

Hey, now he has the opportunity to help rebuild it into a righteous city of God! :duh Unfortunately for Pat, God saw fit to spare the French Quarter, so it looks like Mardi Gras will be back! :D