Is religion necessary?

[Fredl]

Lately, I find myself becoming increasingly interested in the "Chinese Model" of Government, Economic Development, Social Interaction, etc., etc. Increasingly, it makes sense to me.

I was really intrigued by a comment Bill Gates made about what makes it so easy to do business there. What he said was that most Chinese Buearocrats have been educated as Engineers and are concerned primarily with numbers rather than one-liners to give themselves an edge on their political oponents. I've also
heard it said repeated by several people who know a lot about China that the system there combines a relatively benign top down government which has been heavily influenced by Mandarin traditions with very substantial freedom in most personal and economic areas that do not pose any threat to the existing political order.

Now, I don't think that the PRC is a Heaven on Earth, but I do think it has a great deal to recommend it to developing nations. I also find it interesting that the vast majority of its people, and particularly those who are making a real difference in economic development, seem to have so little interest in religion. Places where religion is important, like Iraq and the US seem to be plagued with controversy over it and it is hard for me to view it as a force for progress (at least, the kind of progress which encourages me!).

I've become very disenchanted with the American media, particularly the news and opinion shows. I've started watching CCTV and, although it's far from perfect, I feel that it portrays our world in a much more positive light than the US media. I find it supports my current effort to love the world and the people in it as they are rather than as they "should be" much better than the US media. Call it propaganda, but how is that different from the US and European media?

Fred

[elder_nomo]

Is religion necessary?
. . . . . No. . . . . . .

[silverfox]

. . . . . No. . . . . . .

Not only no but Hell, no.

[free thinker]

Businesses may come and go, but religion will last forever, for in no other endeavor does the consumer blame himself for product failure. ~Harvard Lamphoon, "Doon" (paraphrase) :cool:


free thinker

[meinmachine]

Lately, I find myself becoming increasingly interested in the "Chinese Model" of Government, Economic Development, Social Interaction, etc., etc. Increasingly, it makes sense to me.

I was really intrigued by a comment Bill Gates made about what makes it so easy to do business there. What he said was that most Chinese Buearocrats have been educated as Engineers and are concerned primarily with numbers rather than one-liners to give themselves an edge on their political oponents. I've also
heard it said repeated by several people who know a lot about China that the system there combines a relatively benign top down government which has been heavily influenced by Mandarin traditions with very substantial freedom in most personal and economic areas that do not pose any threat to the existing political order.

Now, I don't think that the PRC is a Heaven on Earth, but I do think it has a great deal to recommend it to developing nations. I also find it interesting that the vast majority of its people, and particularly those who are making a real difference in economic development, seem to have so little interest in religion. Places where religion is important, like Iraq and the US seem to be plagued with controversy over it and it is hard for me to view it as a force for progress (at least, the kind of progress which encourages me!).

I've become very disenchanted with the American media, particularly the news and opinion shows. I've started watching CCTV and, although it's far from perfect, I feel that it portrays our world in a much more positive light than the US media. I find it supports my current effort to love the world and the people in it as they are rather than as they "should be" much better than the US media. Call it propaganda, but how is that different from the US and European media?

Fred
No! I do not need religion. But some people, due to their current situation may need it. Just like a heroine addict needs methadone. I wish it were not so, but weaning of a drug dependency takes time and cannot happen until the underlying cause of the problem is uncovered and dealt with.

The advantage of China is that the oligarchy that runs the country controls the ideas that the people learn. They do not want their citizens controlled by religion, the oligarchy wants control of its citizens. Yes, China has many freedoms it grants its citizens. The difference is that in the USA and Canada it is the citizens that grant the state its power. Now I know there is much wrong with the “West” and that we could learn some things from the Chinese model, but its citizens are wanting the western model, in fact millions would move to the West if only given a chance.

China is a great place to live if you are willing to surrender freedom for security. Maybe we will all have to do that soon enough, but that is a day I will fight.

[Jeff_Ricks]

Lately, I find myself becoming increasingly interested in the "Chinese Model" of Government, Economic Development, Social Interaction, etc., etc. Increasingly, it makes sense to me.

I was really intrigued by a comment Bill Gates made about what makes it so easy to do business there. What he said was that most Chinese Buearocrats have been educated as Engineers and are concerned primarily with numbers rather than one-liners to give themselves an edge on their political oponents. I've also
heard it said repeated by several people who know a lot about China that the system there combines a relatively benign top down government which has been heavily influenced by Mandarin traditions with very substantial freedom in most personal and economic areas that do not pose any threat to the existing political order.

Now, I don't think that the PRC is a Heaven on Earth, but I do think it has a great deal to recommend it to developing nations. I also find it interesting that the vast majority of its people, and particularly those who are making a real difference in economic development, seem to have so little interest in religion. Places where religion is important, like Iraq and the US seem to be plagued with controversy over it and it is hard for me to view it as a force for progress (at least, the kind of progress which encourages me!).

I've become very disenchanted with the American media, particularly the news and opinion shows. I've started watching CCTV and, although it's far from perfect, I feel that it portrays our world in a much more positive light than the US media. I find it supports my current effort to love the world and the people in it as they are rather than as they "should be" much better than the US media. Call it propaganda, but how is that different from the US and European media?

Fred
In my oh so humble opinion :D I think the world needs religion... (yep, that's what I said) ...in the same sense that we all need a hole in our heads. There are far too many examples in the world where religion has been the cause of social ills, not the cure. The aspects of religion that are positive, such as teaching people to treat others decent, don't steal from them, kill them, mislead them, etc. aren’t actually the property of religion, they are just plain common sense. We don’t need a religion to enlighten us in those areas. Come to think of it, I can think of many examples where religion has been and still is used to JUSTIFY stealing, killing, misleading, torturing, belittling, discrimination, etc. Yep, we need religion like we need a hole in the head. :Crazy: :slap: :Puking

[why me]

In my opinion China has been influenced by confusious, the ancient chinese philosopher both in moral development and in educational development. I think even chairman Mao tried to incorporate confusious thought with communism. Mao was a teacher before he became a revolutionary and was very much aware of confusiousian thought within chinese society. I think that this only proves that individuals need someone or something which they think is wiser than themselves to guide their moral and human development. Of course it would be great if humankind were guided by humanist thinking where the human is put at the center of attention by humanity but for this to happen educational systems and socioeconomic sytems would need to be changed to embrace the humanist intent. In china they had years of communism that tried to influence the conscious of individuals. In china today, Mao is hightly respected in the countryside because during mao's time the concept of the iron ricebowl was put into effect...in other words...putting food in the rice bowl was of prime importance, and the people living in the countryside had the opportunity to be educated to better their circumstances. But mao also made mistakes. China just has a different tradition than the west but I cannot say that I admire the system today. Too much poverty in china and the health care system has more or less collasped in the countryside. But do we need religion...yes because the human mind demands it.

[Jeff_Ricks]

But do we need religion...yes because the human mind demands it.
In what ways do you think the human mind demand religion?? I would say that some minds do, or at least they THINK they do, but I don't think that the need for religion is an innate, inevitable aspect of being human. I see religion as being like a disease that infects human culture, causing some of the symptoms I listed in my previous post in this thread. Perhaps human culture has had the disease for so long that now it thinks it comes with being human. I certainly don't agree!

Jeff

[why me]

In what ways do you think the human mind demand religion?? I would say that some minds do, or at least they THINK they do, but I don't think that the need for religion is an innate, inevitable aspect of being human. I see religion as being like a disease that infects human culture, causing some of the symptoms I listed in my previous post in this thread. Perhaps human culture has had the disease for so long that now it thinks it comes with being human. I certainly don't agree!

Jeff
The human mind needs religion to give reason for the irrationality of human behavior. How could we explain the innate actions of the human animal without blaming an outside source for the harmful action? Religion guides the human toward good and explains evil has emanating outside the human condition and into a temptation syndrome sponsored by a great destroyer of human happiness and goodness----satan. In this regard, it allows us to escape our natual inclination to do evil. Now I know that we have members here who do not believe in evil but since these individuals are in the minority---we need to concentrate on the majority of humankind who do believe in evil...and find evil coming from an external source instead of a human source.

[Jeff_Ricks]

The human mind needs religion to give reason for the irrationality of human behavior. How could we explain the innate actions of the human animal without blaming an outside source for the harmful action? And this is a good thing??? This is exactly why I relate religion to a disease. To me it's like a mental disease of sorts, or is like the ultimate "social disease." I don't think that there is any redeeming value in passing off blame.Religion guides the human toward goodAvoiding responsibility for our faults is "guiding the human toward good"?" ...and explains evil has emanating outside the human condition and into a temptation syndrome sponsored by a great destroyer of human happiness and goodness----satan. In this regard, it allows us to escape our natual inclination to do evil.I don't think it allows us to escape our natural inclination at all. I think it only provides an excuse for our behavior. In other words, according to what you have described as it's purpose it doesn't motivate change for the better, it motivates us to think, "What the hell. I'm not to blame anyway so I'll just keep doing it."Now I know that we have members here who do not believe in evil but since these individuals are in the minority---we need to concentrate on the majority of humankind who do believe in evil...and find evil coming from an external source instead of a human source. Again, I see this as only passing the buck, exacerbating evil instead of being our salvation from it. And I fail to see how in any way that is ultimately a good thing. :confused:

Jeff

[Fredl]

I think the comments about China have been interesting and quite possibly entirely correct. At the same time, I think that it may not been completely adequate to judge China or the US by their current condition. I think their direction and rate of change are also important. Their current condition is the result of history and what has been learned from history is perhaps more important than the current condition which has resulted from it. It is perhaps more difficult to judge these things than the current conditions in each country, but to the degree I'm able to do so, I'm very impressed by what is going on in China.

Fred

[helemon]

Of course it would be great if humankind were guided by humanist thinking where the human is put at the center of attention by humanity but for this to happen educational systems and socioeconomic sytems would need to be changed to embrace the humanist intent.


I think rather than putting the human at the center we need to think of how the human is connected to the world environment that sustains them. We should not put human wants and desires above what is sustainable for the environment. To do so will only bring destruction down the road when the ecosystem collapses and tries to correct the human created imbalances. But if humans learn to work with natural forces then in the long run the human will benefit as well.


But do we need religion...yes because the human mind demands it.

Religion provides pat easy answers to address some of mankinds primal fears and often leads men toward learned helplessness as they are taught to hand over all control and responsibility for for solving the problems in their lives to the diety of the religion. Mankind would be better served in my opinion to be more proactive in trying to understand the forces at work around them and their role in contributing to or mitigating their impact on their lives. Religion does little to add to the advancement of human knowledge. Rather it freezes knowledge in a dogmatic glaciar that tries to crush any who challenge its foundational tenets.

The human mind "demands" it because the human mind is programed to find explanations for the events that occur around it. Providing the mind with a simplistic explanation for the somewhat random and chaotic events of life by teaching people to believe in some mystical fairytale may sedate their fears but does nothing to motivate them to take charge of their own destiny or objectively examine how their own actions and the actions of other humans are impacting their condition.

[helemon]

From Free at last on RfM:
Alan Clements, an ex-Buddhist monk, human rights activist, and author of "Instinct for Freedom: Finding Liberation Through Living". In a recent interview, Clements said in response to the comment, "But spirituality does appear to fill a need in people's lives." Clement's response: "The beauty of dogma is that is works. Was it Marx who said religion is the opiate of the masses? Well, in many ways, dogma, superstition, and religion are the crystal meth of the West."

"It [religion] does serve a very useful function for the human psyche...it assuages existential anxiety based upon uncertainty. That's the equation. So when you have things that are constant in the mind - The Four Noble Truths, The Seven Steps to Enlightenment, The Ten Commandments, The Five Precepts - obviously, it's built on a sub-molecular world of evanescence. The psyche is hard-wired to do anything to assuage its genetic anxiety. So religion becomes the anesthesia, the speed, the comfort to assuage essential existential fear."

[helemon]

The human mind needs religion to give reason for the irrationality of human behavior. How could we explain the innate actions of the human animal without blaming an outside source for the harmful action?

Why should we blame an outside source rather than looking for an internal socio/psychological, or biological impetus for these actions? How are people helped by blaming these actions on an unseen, uncontrollable malevolent force? All it does is allow people to remove blame from themselves and society for their behaviors.


Religion guides the human toward good


Good is a very subjective term especially with regards to religion. Religions define good as whatever it believes is true and evil as everything other religions teach is true. How does such an attitude lead humanity toward good? It only leads to cultural barriers and hostility.


and explains evil has emanating outside the human condition and into a temptation syndrome sponsored by a great destroyer of human happiness and goodness----Satan. In this regard, it allows us to escape our natural inclination to do evil.


Who gets to define what "evil" is? The Christians? The Muslim? The Buddhist? The Pagan? How about adopting the Aztec models of what is proper behavior and regularly slaughter a thousand people to God? Why must our "natural inclinations" be automatically labeled "evil." I have a natural inclinations to eat, drink, sleep, urinate, deficate, have sex, seek shelter, explore, hunt. None of these are inherently evil and most are essential to life. Isn't it better to try and help people understand that their natural urges are not inherently "good" or "evil" but how to control them in accordance with the rules that have been established by their society for appropriate behavior? By removing these feelings to the realm of demons and devils we place a wall between the individual and a sense of control over their own mind and actions.


Now I know that we have members here who do not believe in evil but since these individuals are in the minority---we need to concentrate on the majority of humankind who do believe in evil...and find evil coming from an external source instead of a human source.

And you are suggesting that we do this by upholding and validating this belief? So in your opinion the Muslim radicals are justified in viewing America as the Great Satan, and America is justified in viewing them as "evil doers"? Look where that attitude has gotten us! Why can't we just accept that we are all just trying desperately to survive on this planet and learn to find ways to make everyones existence a bit more secure and fulfilling rather than bringing the variable concepts of good and evil into it.

[Fredl]

Helemon, you make a lot of very good points but I think you fail to understand or give credence to the concept of "the enemy". Believing in freedom, doing unto others as you would have them do unto you, etc., etc. is a recipe for extinction if such thoughts are your only response to others who make intimidation and violence their way of dealing with the world. And there are such people in the world. Many of them. Both within and outside of that area of the world which might be defined as "civilized".

I do not know what causes such mentalities to be created or nurtured but I do know there are people in this world who would like to see you and me dead and would bring it about in a moment if they could. Many such people have parents, brothers, sisters, neighbors who wish no such thing, so to say you and I are responsible for their attitudes rings a little hollow with me.

In the abstract, I extend these folks the same love I have for all men and women and even admire them to a degree. However, if I were of an age to do it, I'd be happy to serve in the Marine Corps once more and if the mission required it, kill or imprison just as many of them as I could.

Fred

[helemon]

Helemon, you make a lot of very good points but I think you fail to understand or give credence to the concept of "the enemy". Believing in freedom, doing unto others as you would have them do unto you, etc., etc. is a recipe for extinction if such thoughts are your only response to others who make intimidation and violence their way of dealing with the world. And there are such people in the world. Many of them. Both within and outside of that area of the world which might be defined as "civilized".


Huh? Where did I say we should not respond with force to people who would do us or others harm? My point was that it serves no purpose to assign the label of evil to another group because they similarly view us as evil. So where does it end and how do you arrive at a consensus of what is evil by turning to religious traditions?


I do not know what causes such mentalities to be created or nurtured but I do know there are people in this world who would like to see you and me dead and would bring it about in a moment if they could. Many such people have parents, brothers, sisters, neighbors who wish no such thing, so to say you and I are responsible for their attitudes rings a little hollow with me.


Perhaps abject poverty, religious indoctrination, feeling powerless to control their own destinies, fear about the survival of their culture? Where did I say you or I are responsible for their thinking? I said they call us evil and we call them evil, so again what use is the concept of evil if it simply means a group or individual who has different religious values and belief than you? Saying a group of people are evil is different than saying they harbor hatred toward us and pose a physical threat to us. Saying they are evil does nothing to help us decide how to resolve the problem it only makes us feel more self righteous when we bomb the hell out of them.


In the abstract, I extend these folks the same love I have for all men and women and even admire them to a degree. However, if I were of an age to do it, I'd be happy to serve in the Marine Corps once more and if the mission required it, kill or imprison just as many of them as I could.

Fred

Again I never said we should not deal with these violent elements. My comment was addressed at the utility of labeling another group of people as "evil" because they have hostile intentions toward you.

[Fredl]

Helemon, after I sent off my "instuctional comments", it occurred to me that I sure am getting preachy in my old age! Now, I don't know anybody that particularly likes being lectured yet, even knowing this, I still find myself indulging in it from time to time. Don't ask me why; I've really never seen it lead to good results!

Anyway, I can't find a whole lot to argue with in your last. I really don't think a lot in terms of our enemies being evil. Though there are some folks I really can't get my head around. Adolph Hitler, for example, has always fascinated me. I've read two biographies of him and alot of other books that had at least some bearing on him and I just can not for the life of me get to the point I feel like I understand him. Last night I saw a piece on TV about Richard Speck (the guy that killed the nurses in Chicago several years ago). I sat there wondering what it was like to be him. I know I have lots of irrational impulses, many of which I act on. Am I merely lucky that mine don't involve killing women?

Well, thanks for the response. Sure is more fun than just talking to myself, even if I am getting a scolding!

Fred

[helemon]

Though there are some folks I really can't get my head around. Adolph Hitler, for example, has always fascinated me. I've read two biographies of him and alot of other books that had at least some bearing on him and I just can not for the life of me get to the point I feel like I understand him.

While I would never excuse Hitlers actions I do think he was a product of his age. Marx had pronounced that God is dead. Darwins theories promoted the idea of survival of the fittest. The eugenics movement was promoting the idea of the state preventing people who fell below a certain level of intelligence from reproducing in order to improve the human species. The economy of Germany was dismal making the people easy prey for someone providing them with a scape goat. German power in the world was waning and they likely longed for someone to lead them to future glory. Hilter simply played into these ideas to achieve his own desire for power and control by promoting the idea of a master race.

[silverfox]

Religion was created by man. At some point someone needed it for whatever reasons s it was created BUT is it necessary for EVERYONE?

My life makes much more sense without it. It is much more fulfilling and happier. I am a better person without it. My interest in humanity has increased for personal reasons out of true feelings of compassion and love - not because a book or a religion says that's the way it should be.

[lisa]

I believe that religion is a rather personal choice. I myself do attend a church and at this moment in time it works for me.

I look at most things in life as either working or not working. If its working for me GREAT! If not I make a new choice. The Mormon religion was not working and I made a new choice. There have been many many things in life that I thought at the time were difficult, and became very simple when I changed the mindframe to either working or not working. How simple is that. I see that no religion is working for many here.

have agreat day!

[dancinfree]

The human mind needs religion to give reason for the irrationality of human behavior. How could we explain the innate actions of the human animal without blaming an outside source for the harmful action? Religion guides the human toward good and explains evil has emanating outside the human condition and into a temptation syndrome sponsored by a great destroyer of human happiness and goodness----satan. In this regard, it allows us to escape our natual inclination to do evil. Now I know that we have members here who do not believe in evil but since these individuals are in the minority---we need to concentrate on the majority of humankind who do believe in evil...and find evil coming from an external source instead of a human source.


Hello Why me..always good to see your posts,

Again, the definition of evil means so many things to so many different people but as for myself, I finally let go of blaming some "voodoo" supernatural reason for all the temptations and "bad" things in life (which some people would call "satan") and looked at myself for accountability for my thoughts and my actions.

I call this the "evolvement of my spirit" because now instead of wallowing in my self-loathing and pity due to my weakness in fighting some invisible foe...I look to myself as responsible for all that I feel and all that I do. There is no scapegoat now!! Wow!! What a growing experience that has been. Since then, I feel more human and more spiritual then ever.

I disagree strongly with you that my "natural" inclination is to do evil...in all my experiences, when souls feel truly free to accept themselves and love themselves unconditionally...to do evil (fill in the blanks to what that means) is NOT the inner core of my soul or any other human I've ever met. I'm sorry for you if that is what you've found in your experiences.

I do not need to believe in some outer thing or being to do "good" ( fill in the blanks to that one too)..all I need is to embrace the divine within myself and accept it and the natural inclincation is to love and be loved. I don't think I'm alone in this matter.

According to you, I am in the minority but I assure you, I am not. I do believe in an external evil (such that I define that when someone voices their beliefs, I find that their words are in the external realm for me to accept or reject) ...it's the evil beliefs that men choose to believe in... the ones that seep into their souls and shape them to think they need to believe that they are evil without some external force guiding them one way or another. The evil of the beliefs that do not recognize one's own divine worth.... where self-loathing and psychologically whipping ourselves until we believe we are lower then dirt takes precedence over the strength and power of the human soul. Those beliefs are evil to me for they stunt the spiritual growth of men and keep them small and powerless.

Relgion for me is now laughable but spirituality is divine. Releasing my "satan" view of evil has allowed me to face the mirror everyday knowing that there is no one to blame but myself and in so many ways that causes me tears and smiles but oh, so beautiful in it's clarity.

Thanks for allowing me to rant. Take care and best wishes!

[miss taken]

Hello Why me..always good to see your posts,

Again, the definition of evil means so many things to so many different people but as for myself, I finally let go of blaming some "voodoo" supernatural reason for all the temptations and "bad" things in life (which some people would call "satan") and looked at myself for accountability for my thoughts and my actions.


Me too, dancing free!!!
Just a thought on China, and that is that they have one of the worst records on human rights, and also their way of dealing with the over-population issue can be pretty damning in some cases.

Over here, we are training up a lot of Chinese people in the engineering and design industry, what happens is they then go back to China, and since working conditions out there are cheaper, they close up shop over here so the Brits lose out...Not saying it is right or wrong but that is the way it is going over here.

Anyways, we have had some Chinese people stay at our house, and one of the girls (married) was saying that the population control is less rigidly adhered to in the countryside than in the towns, particularly if the first is a girl. (They are only supposed to have one child per family). Girls are not as valued as boys, and baby girls end up dead on the streets with no one to care a wit.
Infanticide is common.

I am also thinking of Tianamon Square, which I believe was quite horrendous really.!!

As for religion, I believe we are hot-wired in the brain to ask questions about who we are, why we are here and where we are going. Stephen Dawkins had his brain scanned and his brain area (hotwired for spiritual experience) is not so strong which is why he is atheist. So...from that evidence...it's all in the brain folks!!!!!

Mary :Crazy:

[why me]

Hello Why me..always good to see your posts,

Again, the definition of evil means so many things to so many different people but as for myself, I finally let go of blaming some "voodoo" supernatural reason for all the temptations and "bad" things in life (which some people would call "satan") and looked at myself for accountability for my thoughts and my actions.

I call this the "evolvement of my spirit" because now instead of wallowing in my self-loathing and pity due to my weakness in fighting some invisible foe...I look to myself as responsible for all that I feel and all that I do. There is no scapegoat now!! Wow!! What a growing experience that has been. Since then, I feel more human and more spiritual then ever.

I disagree strongly with you that my "natural" inclination is to do evil...in all my experiences, when souls feel truly free to accept themselves and love themselves unconditionally...to do evil (fill in the blanks to what that means) is NOT the inner core of my soul or any other human I've ever met. I'm sorry for you if that is what you've found in your experiences.

I do not need to believe in some outer thing or being to do "good" ( fill in the blanks to that one too)..all I need is to embrace the divine within myself and accept it and the natural inclincation is to love and be loved. I don't think I'm alone in this matter.

According to you, I am in the minority but I assure you, I am not. I do believe in an external evil (such that I define that when someone voices their beliefs, I find that their words are in the external realm for me to accept or reject) ...it's the evil beliefs that men choose to believe in... the ones that seep into their souls and shape them to think they need to believe that they are evil without some external force guiding them one way or another. The evil of the beliefs that do not recognize one's own divine worth.... where self-loathing and psychologically whipping ourselves until we believe we are lower then dirt takes precedence over the strength and power of the human soul. Those beliefs are evil to me for they stunt the spiritual growth of men and keep them small and powerless.

Relgion for me is now laughable but spirituality is divine. Releasing my "satan" view of evil has allowed me to face the mirror everyday knowing that there is no one to blame but myself and in so many ways that causes me tears and smiles but oh, so beautiful in it's clarity.

Thanks for allowing me to rant. Take care and best wishes!
Well...hello dancinfree! I kinda missed you these past few weeks that you haven't posted. Where have you been? I am glad that you are back and that all is well with dancinfree. Now listen...I don't want you to disappear again for weeks on end. Your poetic soul is needed here. Thanks for your comments......I suppose that school is starting soon! :)

[why me]

I can see the point in the posters who responded to my post. But my take on it was in the second person trying to explain the reason for religion and its need for the human mind to rationalize his or her world. Now I cannot say that there is no god or that religion is poppycock. I just don't know. But to envision the human being without religion and still living in a civilized state without fear of death would be a wonderful thing. But it is not going to happen anytime soon. Perhaps the human being is a dependent creature who needs to depend on something that is outside himself or herself. There is a part of our soul that cannot face life alone without a creator helping us through the process of life. It all comes down from prayer...a direct line of communication to a god who listens and helps those in need. And who allows us to continue existing after death. For some people, it is just difficult to comprehend that human existence and intelligience finishes on death.
I don't think that you can rid the earth of religion....the human mind needs religion for its own peace of spirit and soul. Now religion has been abused for this purpose by given the poor of the world reason to rejoice in heaven upon death if they remain meek and humble on earth...marx wrote about this and was critized for it as did Fuerback (Spelling) from whom Marx took his cue. It is not just a question of personal choice but also of social conditioning. But a person's unbelief is usually found in his or her own so called liberation from a set of social conditions imposed on and by society.

[Jeff_Ricks]

I can see the point in the posters who responded to my post. But my take on it was in the second person trying to explain the reason for religion and its need for the human mind to rationalize his or her world. Now I cannot say that there is no god or that religion is poppycock. I just don't know. But to envision the human being without religion and still living in a civilized state without fear of death would be a wonderful thing. But it is not going to happen anytime soon. Perhaps the human being is a dependent creature who needs to depend on something that is outside himself or herself. There is a part of our soul that cannot face life alone without a creator helping us through the process of life. It all comes down from prayer...a direct line of communication to a god who listens and helps those in need. And who allows us to continue existing after death. For some people, it is just difficult to comprehend that human existence and intelligience finishes on death.
I don't think that you can rid the earth of religion....the human mind needs religion for its own peace of spirit and soul. Now religion has been abused for this purpose by given the poor of the world reason to rejoice in heaven upon death if they remain meek and humble on earth...marx wrote about this and was critized for it as did Fuerback (Spelling) from whom Marx took his cue. It is not just a question of personal choice but also of social conditioning. But a person's unbelief is usually found in his or her own so called liberation from a set of social conditions imposed on and by society.
Why me, you continue to state your point of view as if it applies to all people, but it doesn't! You said:

"Perhaps the human being is a dependent creature who needs to depend on something that is outside himself or herself."

"There is a part of our soul that cannot face life alone without a creator helping us through the process of life. It all comes down from prayer...a direct line of communication to a god who listens and helps those in need."
Your above comments apply to some people but not all.
"And who allows us to continue existing after death. For some people, it is just difficult to comprehend that human existence and intelligience finishes on death."
Human existence and intelligence do not finish at death. People are born and people die but life iteself goes on. We participate in that life while we are "alive" and our participation ends when we "die," but no one can deny that "Life" itself goes on. I think we remain connected to that life in some way. To me it's like basketball players in a game. The game continues and players come and go but they all still own The Game. In other words, everyone of them sits on the bench for a time but their game goes on. So I say, enjoy the game man! Enjoy it even though you can't be a permenant player. Enjoy it whether you are directly participating or indirectly participating as you sit on the sidelines. Don't let fear and anxiety of your turn coming to an end screw up your enjoyment of the game! Am I making sense?? It's our Life. I think we will always own it in some way whether we are directly or indirectly participating in it. In that sense I believe my life contines after death and I need no God to allow it or dissallow it. Hmmm... If anything I think God is like the mascot in the game; just a figment of the imagination. For some people that mascot is why we play the game but for others it's the game itself that's important. Am I making sense?

Jeff

[Fredl]

Hi again, Jeff and everybody.

As I read several of the replies, I started thinking about my son Rick and his Soccer days. Rick started playing soccer several years ago. He was absolutely TERRIBLE his first 3 years or so. I tried to help him (he had a brother and a sister who were very good, indeed), but it seemed to be no use. He was slow, not very strong physically, not very well coordinated and, most important, fearful of physical contact. Yet, he tried and aspired to get better.

I had a talk with him one day after a game and asked him if he was afraid of getting hurt. He, rather abashedly, said he was. "Well", I told him, "there is something you need to understand about soccer as well as everything else in life. The human mind can only think about one thing at a time. If you will focus ONLY on making the play and stop thinking about getting hurt, you will improve".

It proved to be a breakthrough for him in soccer and other areas of his life as well. Within a year, he was one of the better players on his team and for the remaining 3 or 4 years he played, he was regarded as a very good soccer player. We talked about that moment many times. It was a "focal event" for him.

I wonder if the whole religion thing is just a huge distraction and we all ought to be focusing on things that make us and the world we live in better. I know that most of the people that I've respected the most in my life seemed to be focused on practical activities that clearly were of value to themselves and the people around them. I know that the historical figure that I have about as much regard for as any I know, Benjamin Franklin, certainly seemed to embody that. He busied himself with doing beneficial things and spent little time or thought on criticizing others. He was sympathetic with those who were religious, donating to several religious organizations (especially the Jewish synagog in Philadelphia), but remained rather aloof from personal involvement.

How I admire him!

Well I hope this isn't just a total non sequeter.

Fred

[helemon]

I wonder if the whole religion thing is just a huge distraction and we all ought to be focusing on things that make us and the world we live in better.

I think religion is meant to be a big distraction. It was designed to take peoples minds off how miserable, dirty, and short their lives were by promising them rest, peace, happiness and riches in the next life or promising them eternal hell and torment if they acted in ways that were harmful or contrary to the values of the group since it was impossible to reasonably police societies anciently mythological scare tactics promising divine retribution were likely helpful to keep some people in line.

[why me]

Hi again, Jeff and everybody.

As I read several of the replies, I started thinking about my son Rick and his Soccer days. Rick started playing soccer several years ago. He was absolutely TERRIBLE his first 3 years or so. I tried to help him (he had a brother and a sister who were very good, indeed), but it seemed to be no use. He was slow, not very strong physically, not very well coordinated and, most important, fearful of physical contact. Yet, he tried and aspired to get better.

I had a talk with him one day after a game and asked him if he was afraid of getting hurt. He, rather abashedly, said he was. "Well", I told him, "there is something you need to understand about soccer as well as everything else in life. The human mind can only think about one thing at a time. If you will focus ONLY on making the play and stop thinking about getting hurt, you will improve".

It proved to be a breakthrough for him in soccer and other areas of his life as well. Within a year, he was one of the better players on his team and for the remaining 3 or 4 years he played, he was regarded as a very good soccer player. We talked about that moment many times. It was a "focal event" for him.

I wonder if the whole religion thing is just a huge distraction and we all ought to be focusing on things that make us and the world we live in better. I know that most of the people that I've respected the most in my life seemed to be focused on practical activities that clearly were of value to themselves and the people around them. I know that the historical figure that I have about as much regard for as any I know, Benjamin Franklin, certainly seemed to embody that. He busied himself with doing beneficial things and spent little time or thought on criticizing others. He was sympathetic with those who were religious, donating to several religious organizations (especially the Jewish synagog in Philadelphia), but remained rather aloof from personal involvement.

How I admire him!

Well I hope this isn't just a total non sequeter.

Fred
Whart is the purpose of life? I think that it is to make the world a better and safer place to be. How one goes about doing that is where the debate should take place. Of course, we can instill in ourselves christlike attibutes and go in that direction or we can also take as a starting point our own humanist leaning and consider life to be a dignified essence of human creativity and being. The point is however how to create a better and safer world. If we spend mutual time in reflection and contemplation about this---there could be some improvement in the circumstances of every human being. Of course there would be disagreement but there would also be some agreement. And when there is agreement---with genuine human action---maybe something can be done. But the goal needs to remain the betterment of the world. I cannot say that the world is better now than at the end of the cold war....I just don't see it and so...we are all doing something wrong in my opinion. Thanks fred for the post and for the reflection... :)

[silverfox]

I can see the point in the posters who responded to my post. But my take on it was in the second person trying to explain the reason for religion and its need for the human mind to rationalize his or her world. Now I cannot say that there is no god or that religion is poppycock. I just don't know. But to envision the human being without religion and still living in a civilized state without fear of death would be a wonderful thing. But it is not going to happen anytime soon. Perhaps the human being is a dependent creature who needs to depend on something that is outside himself or herself. There is a part of our soul that cannot face life alone without a creator helping us through the process of life. It all comes down from prayer...a direct line of communication to a god who listens and helps those in need. And who allows us to continue existing after death. For some people, it is just difficult to comprehend that human existence and intelligience finishes on death.
I don't think that you can rid the earth of religion....the human mind needs religion for its own peace of spirit and soul. Now religion has been abused for this purpose by given the poor of the world reason to rejoice in heaven upon death if they remain meek and humble on earth...marx wrote about this and was critized for it as did Fuerback (Spelling) from whom Marx took his cue. It is not just a question of personal choice but also of social conditioning. But a person's unbelief is usually found in his or her own so called liberation from a set of social conditions imposed on and by society.

Do you not know of any athiests or anyone who has NEVER had a religion? Do you not know of anyone who has lived life without the belief in a God or a religion? If so, what are their lives like? What are they like?

I know MANY athiests and people who do NOT depend on religion for anything. In fact, some of them have no interest in it at all. How do you explain the fullfilling wonderful happy lives that they lead?

I personally don't believe in a life after death. All it does is make my life here more valuable to me. I cherish EVERY MOMENT that I am alive and I use my time more wisely. I value the lives of others more.

I will not use a fear of a life after death or the comfort of a live after death as a cop out to justify my actions / beliefs while alive. I can only try to live my life to the best of my abilites, learn from my mistakes, use my knowledge and experiences to reach out and in turn, learn from other's.

[meinmachine]

Do you not know of any athiests or anyone who has NEVER had a religion? Do you not know of anyone who has lived life without the belief in a God or a religion? If so, what are their lives like? What are they like?

I know MANY athiests and people who do NOT depend on religion for anything. In fact, some of them have no interest in it at all. How do you explain the fullfilling wonderful happy lives that they lead?

I personally don't believe in a life after death. All it does is make my life here more valuable to me. I cherish EVERY MOMENT that I am alive and I use my time more wisely. I value the lives of others more.

I will not use a fear of a life after death or the comfort of a live after death as a cop out to justify my actions / beliefs while alive. I can only try to live my life to the best of my abilites, learn from my mistakes, use my knowledge and experiences to reach out and in turn, learn from other's.

What Silverfox just said!

[peter_mary]

There's a difference between the two questions being batted around this thread. For the sake of clarity, I'll spell them out.

1) Is religion necessary?

2) Is religion inevitable?

I think Fred asked #1, but Why_Me and others seemed to have gotten side-tracked on #2.

So, given the fact that I am unabashidly opinionated, I'll now pontificate on #2, and then turn to #1.

I DO believe that religion among human beings was a "Highly probable" outcome (not inevitable, but close). Once the human mind developed to a point at which it could project it's own death, consider the impacts of choices on themeselves, their families, and their cultural at large, and begin to comprehend time and creation, then it also became susceptible to speculation as to the answers to those questions.

I believe that an awareness of our own death created a high degree of existential angst that would otherwise have stymied human development if it couldn't find ways to assuage that angst. Religion was a means for filling that void, and bandaging that angst.

I believe that when the mind could ascertain that there are "variables" at play in our lives, it again created a high degree of existential angst in the recognition that our safety is not entirely within our control. But if we could appeal to someone or something GREATER than us, someone or something that COULD control those variables, then we could again provide some relief from that angst by just figuring out how to appeal to that greater power.

I believe that once we began to recognize that there was great power in being able to broker between the common man and that supreme 'other', that men in particular (though women, too, have participated in the power of god-making, ala the goddess cults of ancient days) realized that they could bring power to themselves, "like unto the gods" by simply knowing what the right things to say and do were in order to appease the greater power.

I believe that all of this, and SO much more, is simply a bi-product of this amazing blob of gray flesh that squats in our craniums.

The fact that our brains and our cultures LIKE the concept of religion is evidenced by thousands of years of religion's popularity among our species.

But all of that is a far cry from "do we NEED religion." To that, I throw my vote in the "no" ring. We don't need religion. But we'll never actually know whether we do or not...that's the funny thing. Religion is, at this point, so rooted in the human psyche and experience that I doubt it can be excised.

But I don't believe we need it. In fact, I believe it's caused a great deal more harm than good. I believe people can, and do, act with great moral integrity sans religion. I believe people can and do act with charity and kindness sans religion. I believe that as a society, it is the non-theists who are MOST likely to, like the Lorax, "speak for the trees." It is they who are not anticipating a fiery millenial return of Christ to end the world as we know it who are fighting to PRESERVE the world was we know it. I believe, in fact, that a person who works out the tenets of morality in their own mind and abides by it is every bit as capable of assisting the weak and the needy as are those who are responding to the dictates of their religion.

I believe that the non-theist has certain moral advantages that their religious counterparts often fall victim to (not all, but many); namely that there IS no higher power dictating that all mankind must believe according to certain doctrines or else they are damned (or to be destroyed), thereby creating a caste system of believers and non-believers. (How many of you who are athiests, for example, DARE speak openly about that in American society? Man, I don't!) I believe it is more likely to be the non-theists who are inclined to see all of us on equal footing as citizens of the universe, rather than categorizing according to "who belongs to the fellowship, who is a member, who is saved, who is good, and more importantly, who is none of the above."

I believe in my heart of hearts that could we remove religion from the landscape of the human experience, that much of the ills of our race would vanish.

What I don't know, and can't know, is what ill's might take their place...

Ironic, ain't it?

Peter_Mary

[helemon]

I believe that an awareness of our own death created a high degree of existential angst that would otherwise have stymied human development if it couldn't find ways to assuage that angst. Religion was a means for filling that void, and bandaging that angst.

I believe that when the mind could ascertain that there are "variables" at play in our lives, it again created a high degree of existential angst in the recognition that our safety is not entirely within our control. But if we could appeal to someone or something GREATER than us, someone or something that COULD control those variables, then we could again provide some relief from that angst by just figuring out how to appeal to that greater power.

I believe that once we began to recognize that there was great power in being able to broker between the common man and that supreme 'other', that men in particular (though women, too, have participated in the power of god-making, ala the goddess cults of ancient days) realized that they could bring power to themselves, "like unto the gods" by simply knowing what the right things to say and do were in order to appease the greater power.


I agree with where you are going with this. Just wanted to add a couple more opinions. The most primitive humans seemed to have viewed all life and matter as a conscious entity with various powers. The mind projected what it understood about its own thought processes and social relationships onto the greater universe that it inhabited. Thus the idea of the sky god impregnating the earth goddess. They recognized that their ability to survive was dependent on the goodness of these forces so being a social animal humans tried to understand these forces of nature as social and emotional interactions of anger, wrath, punishment, jealousy, as well as mercy, generosity, love, protection.

I think the familial relationship and ancestor worship also led man to move from an animistic view of the universe to a paternal or familial forces governing and quarreling over control of the universe and the fate of man. I wonder if earlier man saw himself as helpless to the forces of nature and so worshiped them as his superiors, then as he gained confindence in his ability to have some control over his environment through advances in agriculture, building technique and animal husbandry led him to recreate God in his own image as the divine father, as demonstrated by Zeus conquering the Titans. Still pantheism leads to various sects worshiping the various gods so having an all encompassing single diety likely led to greater tribal unity.

While I agree that religion has been the cause of much pain, suffering, hatred, and bloodshed, I can't say that has been a total waste for in relgion we see mankind merely trying to understand the world in which he lives much like science does today. I can't fault my ancestors for believing in foolish ideas since they were simply working with the best models that they had. It would have been much stranger for them to have concluded with their limited knowledge that the forces shaping their world were not under the control of some supernatural force.

Mankinds quest to understand the universe as embodied in the various religious faiths has contributed considerable to the development of astronomy, agriculture, architecture, and mathematics. It caused people to think about how their actions might impact the world around them and their society. Most religions have basic concepts of honesty, loyalty, as well as some basic dietary rules that were likely very valuable to the health of people back then.

The main problem with religion is that it claims that it has a perfect and divine answer and so is difficult to modify and revise as new knowledge is acquired. This is what I see as the greatest threat it poses to humankind. Instead of promoting a growth of the mind it traps it in a timewarp of myth and past theories, damning the soul into a simplistic model of their world. But there in lies the appeal of religion. How many times have you heard people exult about the simplicity of the gospel? It is an answer, unlike science, that can be learned by a child. Science on the other hand is continually gowing and expanding at an ever increasing rate making it impossible for the average human being to keep up on all the advancements, so they fall back on the only explanation they have the time and background to understand.


I believe in my heart of hearts that could we remove religion from the landscape of the human experience, that much of the ills of our race would vanish.

What I don't know, and can't know, is what ill's might take their place...

Ironic, ain't it?

Peter_Mary

I highly doubt humans will ever fully move beyond religion. Death will always present mankind with the ultimate untestable problem where scientific theorem cannot reach and whose approach science can only post pone not prevent. But I think we should recognize the good things that religion has given us as well as the bad if we are to even attempt to move beyond it.