In Honor of New Orleans [Archive]

peter_mary

9th September 2005, 08:54 AM

Since it's Friday, and since I've spent the past 10 days focusing on the terrible tragedy that was Hurricane Katrina, I thought I would share a learning experience I had, as an active Mormon, during my first trip to the Big Easy.

So, New Orleans, this recollection is for you...

It's been about 6 or 7 years ago, so I was on the verge of coming out of the Church, but still active. I was asked to attend a couple of days worth of meetings in New Orleans in February...the week before Mardi Gras.

Now, I had heard stories of New Orleans, especially at Mardi Gras time, that would make a good Mormon's hair stand on end. It shamed the stories of Las Vegas that I'd heard. Nevertheless, mine was not to question the wisdom of sending me to this den of iniquity, mine was to do as I was told, and I did, but I wasn't happy about it.

When I arrived, I had to drive to my hotel down by the water front (in the Warehouse District, right across from the gargantuan Convention Center) from the Louis Armstrong Airport at night. Unbeknownst to me, I was driving down a parade route for that evening's event, and found the streets lined with revelers--I was a little surprised to see everyone turned out to welcome me to the City! :) Still, it was chaotic, very black, and utterly unfamiliar to this small-town Idaho boy, and I hurried to the relative safety and sanctuary of my hotel.

That evening, I came down with a fever, and just went to bed.

The next day's meetings were difficult to endure, because I just didn't feel well. At lunchtime, I walked down to the River Walk, and began to understand that Mardi Gras is much more than Fat Tuesday...in New Orleans it lasts all year, to a degree, but CERTAINLY it was happening that week before. But I didn't feel well, and had heard from fellow meeting-goers about the debauchery of the French Quarter the night before, and I decided to stay in my hotel again that evening. I was appalled at the sinfullness of that place. I didn't even go out for dinner...I bought a coke and Snickers bar at the front desk and called it a night.

That next day would be my last in that city, and despite how puny I felt, I decided to go to that evening's parade in the hopes of catching a few beads to bring home to my kids. I walked the few blocks to the parade route, and leaned against a phone pole, there not being any place to sit. As I watched, people of all shapes, sizes and colors came to the parade, and some of them were even sober--though not many. It seemed to be a violation of City Code to NOT have an open container of beer. More for me to turn up my nose at. Three little boys across the street from me, right in front of their mother, were sporting rubber butts and rubber boobs, and were running up and down the parade route flashing their artifical anatomy and shouting "Boobies!" Imagine how this Mormon boy from Idaho felt about that.

The most appalling part, though, was when a man walked up to me to hand me a tatoo coupon, and his shirt proudly exclaimed the three most significant messages he could think of: "Eat, F*ck, Tatoo." That was almost enough to to send me running back to my hotel screaming, but I was determined to wait until the parade arrived.

When at last it did, I watched with detached judgment as people hooted and whistled at the marching jazz bands and the floats of masked bead-tossers. All around me, people were happy, excited, celebratory, dancing, laughing and catching beads (I was NOT in the French Quarter, so people were keeping their shirts down). I, on the other hand, watched with disdain.

Until someone tossed me a strand of beads. Something happened at that moment, and a little switch went off in my brain. I NEEDED MORE BEADS!! RIGHT NOW!! I moved away from the pole...it was too far from the action. I started waiving at passing floats: "Throw me some beads!" I shouted, "I'm from Idaho!" They did.

At one point, someone threw a WHOLE BAG OF BEADS my way, and I happened to snatch them out of the air over the head of a kid (who already had enough, thank you very much), and I was so caught up in the fun of it all, that I just hooted and hollered, pointing at that kid shouting, "Who's your daddy, who's your daddy?" People started giving me more space... ;)

When the parade was finally over, I realized that I had forgotten about my fever. I had forgotten about my elitist, moralizing judgement of the people there, and had joined with them in the fun, the excitement, the PLAY for which they had all come. I walked back to my hotel, alive and flushed with excitement, beads draped thickly around my neck, and for the first time, feeling like I had come to New Orleans.

Most importantly, I learned that night that there is little value in standing seperately from my fellow human beings and believing I was somehow superior...they proved themselves worthy of joining. It was ME that was no fun to be with, THEY were all just fine! It was when I could finally let go of the judgement that I could experience the spirit of the place to which I had come--and I fell in love with it.

The NEXT time I came to New Orleans, I soaked it up, spending every evening in the French Quarter (which can, in places, be the most tacky place in the world), but which also housed incredible food, wonderful culture, rich and lively music, including my Uncle who was playing in a funny little bar where I ordered a Diet Coke, much to the bemusement of the bartender, who was willing to buy me whatever drink I wanted, since I was "Phillip's nephew all the way from Idaho." One of the most memorable experiences I have ever had was stepping into a REAL Jazz bar in the French Quarter, where there were five old black men, REAL New Orleans Jazz musicians, playing AUTHENTIC New Orleans Jazz, and I felt as though I had been been transported to another place and time, magically, through the power of their music...improvised, rich, timeless and soulful. It was in THAT place that I finally understood the Big Easy. Those old musicians WERE New Orleans...old, earthy, street-smart, with a mischeivious twinkle in their dark eyes. I left with a feeling of reverence...this was somehow hallowed ground...the mother's womb for a part of America I never knew. Until that night.

That first trip to New Orleans was transformational for me. It was then that I learned the value of stepping outside my tiny little world, and being swallowed up in someone else's for no other reason than to simply "be" with them...to know the world as they do, and to celebrate their life with mine. I also learned how much joy I had denied myself by being so uptight about anything that wasn't Walt Disney--or Provo. New Orleans was raw, human and real, and when I came back to Idaho, I was a little more real myself.

A part of me "grew up" that night in New Orleans, and I am better for it.

I've driven the coastal highway from New Orleans to Pensacola and back on several occassions. Gulfport, Biloxi, Mobile...damn...

Peace, New Orleans...

Peter_Mary

why me

9th September 2005, 09:44 AM

silverfox

9th September 2005, 10:50 AM

Thank you for the post P_M. I appreciate your experience in New Orleans. At the moment I am listening to kzion---a lds radio station. The music is very relaxing and it does soothe the mind to give some reflection. The one thing that came into my mind when I read your post was: my gosh he took things rather seriously. I know that for many of my former new york lds friends most would have not felt guilty heading to mardi gras. It is an event and we would have enjoyed it immensely. I don't think that most of us ever separated ourselves from greater humanity. New York was to diverse for that. And I have to say that we were kind of footloose and fancy free in New York. What comes into my mind is the seriousness that perhaps many members took the gospel for. And perhaps that is where the victim status is located. As for myself, I was a frequent visitor to slime square in NYC before it had a makeover. Nothing but porn, drugs, crime, poverty and underbellied life in times square in the 70's and 80's. My lds friends knew my hangout and in fact my lds woman friend lived in the area. No problem. It is unfortunate that we each interpret church life in different ways. I am left wondering what if many of the people here on postmo.org had a more free mental lifestyle...would they be here now. In New York we young adults back then would talk a lot about getting a mormon lay...doing everything but take the clothes off. I know that if I were in New Orleans I would be at mardi gras mixing with the people without a second thought regardless if I were active or inactive. I suppose the question remains: Are some people here victims of leading a too righteous interpretation of the gospel? Oh just a thought...when I lived in salt lake (1981) there was a strip joint called the 'The Joker Lounge' I caught some of my lds young folks there and we all had a seven up together. It is no good to separate oneself from common humanity but on the other hand although I enjoyed watching women take it off to marvin gayes 'sexual healing' I cannot say that it did much for me afterwards either. I suppose life is what we make of it...but it is definitely not good to live a life in the clouds away from the maddening crowd...life is life...and experience is experience. I know that I learned from my life experiences...for the better and for the worse. :)

Are you a member of the SAME LDS church? Cuz the 30 yrs I was a member we were ALWAYS taught to NOT go into clubs, to AVOID THE VERY APPEARANCE OF EVIL NO MATTER WHAT IT WAS, to avoid things such as Mardi Gra (hubby went to New Orleans on his mission) Avoid R rated movies, avoid strip clubs, avoid being alone with the opposite sex, avoid petting, etc, etc, etc, etc. The Holy Ghost cannot dwell where evil is and it will leave you.

It's not our "personal" interpretation of the "gospel". It's not that we took it too seriously. It's what was shoved down our throats by the church.

Members have been disfellowshipped for continually hanging out at strip clubs or viewing porn, or drinking, etc, etc. For not taking the gospel so "seriously". Have you ever "confessed" the things you did? Because I don't think it would go over well with most bishops or stake presidents.

Seriously, why_me, I don't get what you are saying AT ALL. How deep and active did you really get into the church?

I can't imagine that you missed all the crap constantly being shoved down members' throats. Unless you just slept through the meetings and interviews.

I imagine maybe you are one of those Mormons that just take what they liked about the church and ignore the rest. They don't allow all the rules to pertain to them.

I have a friend who attends church every Sunday, she's a Primary teacher. But that girl can PARTY! And she does. She gets wild and crazy drunk. She hangs out at bars. She has sex. (she is single) She is a ton of fun. She defends the church and believes deeply in it. BUT she would never tell the bishop what she does. And if she ever did I am sure she would threatened with a court of love if she didn't change her ways.

Does that mean the same crap isn't shoved down her throat? No it doesn't. It means she just ignores it and does what she wants to do. She doesn't allow the rules to apply to her. Which is against what the church teaches and expects of it's members. Period.

why me

9th September 2005, 11:42 AM

Are you a member of the SAME LDS church? Cuz the 30 yrs I was a member we were ALWAYS taught to NOT go into clubs, to AVOID THE VERY APPEARANCE OF EVIL NO MATTER WHAT IT WAS, to avoid things such as Mardi Gra (hubby went to New Orleans on his mission) Avoid R rated movies, avoid strip clubs, avoid being alone with the opposite sex, avoid petting, etc, etc, etc, etc. The Holy Ghost cannot dwell where evil is and it will leave you.

It's not our "personal" interpretation of the "gospel". It's not that we took it too seriously. It's what was shoved down our throats by the church.

Members have been disfellowshipped for continually hanging out at strip clubs or viewing porn, or drinking, etc, etc. For not taking the gospel so "seriously". Have you ever "confessed" the things you did? Because I don't think it would go over well with most bishops or stake presidents.

Seriously, why_me, I don't get what you are saying AT ALL. How deep and active did you really get into the church?

I can't imagine that you missed all the crap constantly being shoved down members' throats. Unless you just slept through the meetings and interviews.

I imagine maybe you are one of those Mormons that just take what they liked about the church and ignore the rest. They don't allow all the rules to pertain to them.

I have a friend who attends church every Sunday, she's a Primary teacher. But that girl can PARTY! And she does. She gets wild and crazy drunk. She hangs out at bars. She has sex. (she is single) She is a ton of fun. She defends the church and believes deeply in it. BUT she would never tell the bishop what she does. And if she ever did I am sure she would threatened with a court of love if she didn't change her ways.

Does that mean the same crap isn't shoved down her throat? No it doesn't. It means she just ignores it and does what she wants to do. She doesn't allow the rules to apply to her. Which is against what the church teaches and expects of it's members. Period.
I think that your post proves my point. Many here on postmo.org took the church too seriously. I said it before in my posts: moderation is the way to go. Of course I heard the lectures as you did but I was also from a different part of the country. New York was a little more liberal in some things. Difficult to keep the sabbath because we all went out to eat after church as young adults and no one felt guilty. We just wanted to survive the city at that time. No I didn't sleep through meetings but as I said before I couldn't follow all the rules and I never had an important priesthood position. i gave very little time to church business unless I found something useful for myself like young adult socials etc. And now several years later it is the same for me. But one thing that I do know is that I can bring into the meetings now a lot of interesting takes on life and its meaning. I have all these experiences to share from my own soul without ever owning up to where that knowledge came from. Your friend is what I am talking about. Like me, she can't live the gospel but she also doesn't reject it either. She knows her limitations and accepts them with perhaps a little sadness. I don't know about the sadness of course. But she perhaps knows who she is at this moment in her life. If you take it all too seriously it could drive you nuts but on the other hand, the leaders cannot say: eat drink and be merry either. Thats why I say: moderation with good intent. No I haven't confessed any of my sins. I don't know what would happen to me. But I also know that it would be quite impossible to change right now and so why confess? All churches expect certain rules to be followed...but it is up to the individual to follow them and if not that person needs a good rationalization process in the mind.
Your friend sounds like my type of mormon. But I could do without the drinking...but the rest is fine with me! :D

For P_M, I think that it would have been better for him to have lived alittle while a church member. He would be a different poster today...but not a better poster...just a different poster...imo. :)

dogzilla

9th September 2005, 12:38 PM

:: wipes a tear ::

I'm so glad you had the courage to let your soul out to play and catch some beads. I'm so glad you had that experience and learned all those things. That was beautiful.

:: sniffs ::

I've got a few strings of beads myself, obtained, um, properly. :eek:

(*) (*) <--- Perky little A cups.

peter_mary

9th September 2005, 12:44 PM

For P_M, I think that it would have been better for him to have lived alittle while a church member. He would be a different poster today...but not a better poster...just a different poster...imo. :)

I agree it would have been better to have lived a little more in the world as a member of the Church rather than holing up in my little Zion cave...like so many of us in the heart of Mo-land. On the other hand, I really LIVED the Mormon experience...I know it inside and out, forward and backward. From where I sit now, that was a gift.

It is in large part because I WAS so entrenched that the paradigm shift was so powerful, and the resultant exodus so central to my life. It's a little like Plato's cave...no wait, it's a LOT like Plato's cave. Imagine how Plato's cave dweller would have reacted if he had always lived right at the mouth of the cave (like being a Mormon in New York City), rather than deep in the dark bowels of the cave (like a Mormon in Utah or Idaho). The cave-mouth dweller would have a marginal respone to the release from the cave...it just wouldn't be THAT different. That's perhaps the "Why_Me" story. The cave-belly dweller, however, would have a POWERFUL response to the release from the cave...the Peter_Mary story.

Fortunately, we have both the Why_Me story AND the Peter_Mary story (and many more that are shaped by similar but different forces), and we get to appreciate them all.

Peter_Mary

why me

9th September 2005, 01:15 PM

I agree it would have been better to have lived a little more in the world as a member of the Church rather than holing up in my little Zion cave...like so many of us in the heart of Mo-land. On the other hand, I really LIVED the Mormon experience...I know it inside and out, forward and backward. From where I sit now, that was a gift.

It is in large part because I WAS so entrenched that the paradigm shift was so powerful, and the resultant exodus so central to my life. It's a little like Plato's cave...no wait, it's a LOT like Plato's cave. Imagine how Plato's cave dweller would have reacted if he had always lived right at the mouth of the cave (like being a Mormon in New York City), rather than deep in the dark bowels of the cave (like a Mormon in Utah or Idaho). The cave-mouth dweller would have a marginal respone to the release from the cave...it just wouldn't be THAT different. That's perhaps the "Why_Me" story. The cave-belly dweller, however, would have a POWERFUL response to the release from the cave...the Peter_Mary story.

Fortunately, we have both the Why_Me story AND the Peter_Mary story (and many more that are shaped by similar but different forces), and we get to appreciate them all.

Peter_Mary
You made a good point. But I also think that one can live at the mouth of the cave and still lead a good righteous life in the church. It is only a question of living life not separated from others but with others as they live life and experience life. This does not mean that one must follow my path...but rather live at the mouth of the cave with the heart of others in his or her body. The experience in New Orleans is a case in point. Life is to be enjoyed and if something is offensive....leave and if the person doesn't leave...he or she should view it as a learning experience. I think that a lot of party dwellers woke up with sore heads and with many regrets...while others just had a good time. But I think that there is always a payback for too much partying. But if more of the members of this forum lived at the mouth of the cave...would they be at postmo.org today? Basically, our forum, I think, is made up of members who were living with P-M in the belly and not with me at the mouth. :)

silverfox

9th September 2005, 02:13 PM

I think that your post proves my point. Many here on postmo.org took the church too seriously. I said it before in my posts: moderation is the way to go. Of course I heard the lectures as you did but I was also from a different part of the country. New York was a little more liberal in some things. Difficult to keep the sabbath because we all went out to eat after church as young adults and no one felt guilty. We just wanted to survive the city at that time. No I didn't sleep through meetings but as I said before I couldn't follow all the rules and I never had an important priesthood position. i gave very little time to church business unless I found something useful for myself like young adult socials etc. And now several years later it is the same for me. But one thing that I do know is that I can bring into the meetings now a lot of interesting takes on life and its meaning. I have all these experiences to share from my own soul without ever owning up to where that knowledge came from. Your friend is what I am talking about. Like me, she can't live the gospel but she also doesn't reject it either. She knows her limitations and accepts them with perhaps a little sadness. I don't know about the sadness of course. But she perhaps knows who she is at this moment in her life. If you take it all too seriously it could drive you nuts but on the other hand, the leaders cannot say: eat drink and be merry either. Thats why I say: moderation with good intent. No I haven't confessed any of my sins. I don't know what would happen to me. But I also know that it would be quite impossible to change right now and so why confess? All churches expect certain rules to be followed...but it is up to the individual to follow them and if not that person needs a good rationalization process in the mind.
Your friend sounds like my type of mormon. But I could do without the drinking...but the rest is fine with me! :D

For P_M, I think that it would have been better for him to have lived alittle while a church member. He would be a different poster today...but not a better poster...just a different poster...imo. :)

I FINALLLY get why you often don't understand many of our Mo experiences here. I FINALLY get why it is difficult for you to empathize with us at times.

Now, the church does NOT teach moderation.

I did not grow up in the church. I joined in another part of the country, too at age 18. Didn't matter - the same crap was shoved down our throats just like it is here.

To be TBM you cannot live the lifestyle you did, why_me. Most of us were TBM, very devout, trying to follow all the commandments, doing everything we were told, no questions asked.

Maybe this is where the persuasion techiques come into play for some and not others. Sounds like you never fully engaged in Mo'ism. So maybe that protected you from some of the persuasion, brainwashing, whatever you want to call it. You didn't get fully sucked into it.

It seems it was never under your skin. I get it now. whew.

Did you have any negative or questionable experiences in the Mo church that led you to this website? How did you find us? What need does this website fullfill for you?

I am sincere in wanting to know. I find it interesting what brings people here.

Fredl

9th September 2005, 03:07 PM

Peter, I just loved your story. From the 10 years I've spent in the church I can easily understand it. Recently, I started drinking Iced Tea again and one of these days soon it is my intention to talk with a member of our Bishopric about my life style and current beliefs and find out his position on the issues I've created. I have no idea whether he'll tell me I'm OK; just don't make a big noise about it; I'm not OK and some sort of action will be required or I'm "outa here". I feel quite indifferent about it. What I don't feel OK about is being a hypocrite.

Your story started me thinking, one more time, about my profound ambivalence about my time of life that most Mormon young men spend as Missionaries and I spent as a Junior Officer in the Marine Corps. I lived by a rule set at that time that was very different from the one followed by practicing Mormons, like my son. I didn't drink alcohol a whole lot; never liked it. But, I did spend a whole lot of time in bars in the Far East and in night clubs and dances in the US for one reason only: picking up young ladies. I have never regretted my life style in those days and never felt that I wanted to warn my son against it. I never pushed any girl beyond what she genuinely wanted to do and was always very careful not to in any way harm my partners, leaving them pregnant or with a STD or with unrealistic understandings of my intentions. Yet, I'm very clear that those days were completely contrary to the rule set the church would have young men follow. And, I do see certain advantages to the LDS way. So, my ambivalence.

In talking with the Missionaries earlier this week, one of the things I told them was that I am very unusually tolerant of ambiguity. I love a good question much more than a good answer and love mystery. I am awed by the mysterious in life much more than such things as "The Plan of Salvation". So, my confusion in this area does not bother me as much as I suppose it would many others, particularly True Believing Mormons, who I notice are mostly highly intolerant of uncertainty. I've heard it said that Buddhism is the faith most tolerant of uncertainty, which, I suppose, is why I seem to fall back on its teachings to a much greater degree than those of the Mormon Church.

Fred

peter_mary

9th September 2005, 05:07 PM

I've got a few strings of beads myself, obtained, um, properly. :eek:

(*) (*) <--- Perky little A cups.

Hey!! I recognize those A cups! I think I threw you some beads! ;)

Peter_Mary

helemon

9th September 2005, 07:48 PM

Check out this timeline:
http://thinkprogress.org/katrina-timeline/

8/27 Blanco requested Federal assistance from FEMA.

8/28 Mayor issued mandatory evacuation on Sunday.

8/28 Bush, Brown and Chertoff warned of possible levee failure.

8/29 Bush and Chertoff talk on the phone about immigration problems in AZ.

more...

So how is it that the administration can accuse the governor of being slow to respond?

cactus jack

9th September 2005, 09:05 PM

Helemon, it's called chain of command. FEMA is not there to help the people, they are there to help manage the government forces during a crisis. The city had the ultimate responsibility. Then the parish, then the state and THEN the feds. :duh
Peter_Mary & Dogzilla, the "A" in "A" cups stands for AWWWWWESOME! :D
Peter_Mary, you could have had a better time, you know. Like stripping down to your skivvies and dancing with them ladies....uh huh! :eek: :Crazy:

Born Free

9th September 2005, 10:03 PM

<snip>

One of the most memorable experiences I have ever had was stepping into a REAL Jazz bar in the French Quarter, where there were five old black men, REAL New Orleans Jazz musicians, playing AUTHENTIC New Orleans Jazz, and I felt as though I had been been transported to another place and time, magically, through the power of their music...improvised, rich, timeless and soulful.

<snip>

New Orleans was raw, human and real, and when I came back to Idaho, I was a little more real myself.

A part of me "grew up" that night in New Orleans, and I am better for it.

<snip>

Peter_Mary

P_M,

Breathtaking!! I too had one of those strange watery extrusions develop in my eye as I read it. :eek:

Your description of the shift from stoic separation to joyous connectedness was superb, articulate, heartful and intelligent as always.

The otherworldly quality of that music is to die for. I wonder why jazz has never been a favourite at Mo gatherings? :duh

I find the emergence of more clarity as to why Why Me does not carry the baggage many of us do is great. I agree strongly that the MoWorld I experienced was that only Deep-Cave dwellers were real Mormons. Cave-Mouth dwellers were very suss, uncommitted, not 24 carat.

Why Me, clearly your particular circumstances facilitated you managing to avoid the treatment and judgements usually reserved for the Cave-Mouth dwellers.

P_M, thanks once again for a classic piece. If were had a short essay prize on offer here, you would get my first nomination.

I think you put your finger on a central toxicity of Mormonism. It promotes separateness, not just from the world, and others, but most tragically from self. It encouraged the internalisation a fear of self, surely the ultimate alienation. Your story is (for me anyway) one of coming home, coming to trust self, which is the foundation of all trusts and confidence.

Daryl

silverfox

10th September 2005, 10:10 AM

No problem. It is unfortunate that we each interpret church life in different ways. I am left wondering what if many of the people here on postmo.org had a more free mental lifestyle...would they be here now. I suppose the question remains: Are some people here victims of leading a too righteous interpretation of the gospel? Oh just a thought...

I find it interesting, why_me, that you direct this to POST mo's. When a TBM comes around trying to stir things up and telling us we have chosen the wrong path or we will burn in hell you seem very empathetic and supportive of them. I wonder why you don't give them the same message as above? Why do you direct that only to Post mos? Placing the blame on us for living the gospel as we are taught is wrong. I feel like I'm in church all over again. As a member we were never good enough and now as Post mos you are criticizing us by thinking WE chose our own interpretation of the gospel.

You are WAY off base.

As a TBM although I lived the church like I was taught I was always very open minded. There were many things in the church that I felt were way WRONG. (things like teaching against tattoos, piercings, not wearing pantyhose to church, having to wear dresses and ties, anitabortion-I've NEVER been anti-abortion, have 20 kids, etc, etc)

But the church teaches it's members that they are WRONG to be openminded. It is against the gospel. It is against Heavenly Father. You are to obey the prophet PERIOD, no questions asked. Do a search for the 14 fundamentals of a prophet that I posted several months ago. What the prophet says goes, period.

Many of us have gone to our bishops and stake presidents and tried having open conversations with them. We tried to be honest about who we are. I was once released from YW presidency because I wouldn't teach against birth control. I went to my bish and told him I was uncomfortable teaching the lesson. I refused to teach young girls anything about birth control. First, it was not the church's place, IMO, to teach such a thing. Second, I didn't agree with the lesson. I think birth control is a very personal choice. There are too many abused and unwanted children in the world.

I was "punished" for this. I was released and lectured that I need to obey the commandments and the prophet. That the lessons were prayed about and created how Heavenly Father wanted them to be.

So maybe what you are saying is to feel what you want, live like you want and just go to church and lie and pretend and decieve and then justify those deceptions???? My question would be why bother being a member, then?

I can't do that. And I think many of us are POST mos because we own that kind of integrity. I won't pretend to be anything I am not just for the sake of having the privilege to sit in a specific church or have membership in a church.

As Post Mos we are no longer in the mindset you believe we were in so I think you should cut us more slack and praise us for overcoming the clutches of the church, even if you think we are victims of our own interpretation of the gospel. (You are way off in your thinking there but I now understand why)

It is evident you have never experienced what we have as TBMs so I find you very unqualified to pass judgement or be critical of our experiences and feelings.

I know you lost your reply to one of my posts but I can't wait to hear why you are here at Post Mo when you find it so evident that we are our own victims.

meinmachine

10th September 2005, 10:44 AM

When, all those years ago I served a Mission in Sacramento California, I tried my best to be a diligent servant of god. I respected the missionaries that showed up to work and did their best to do what they signed up to do. I understood that everyone had varying degrees of faith and as a result their diligence to their duties would very, but I never understood the smorgasbord Mormon. How could a Missionary come out and waste his or her time and thereby the time of their companion, Zone and District Leader? If you don’t believe, fine, go home. If you do, great, stay and do the work.

Now that I am no longer a member I can say that I still hold this view. It is dishonest and unkind to pretend to serve. Either do it or don’t. Being a smorgasbord Mormon is one way of being LDS, and avoiding Prozac, but it is not fair to say that this is the way Mormons should live their religion. They are certainly not taught to do so, and it is arguably a very bad thing to do both ethically and intellectually.

As a member I could feel compassion for those that fell away from the true church and I could admire those that did their best to live the teachings of the church, even if they fell short. But I always felt disdain for those that pick and choose their doctrines and then carried on like it was perfectly normal. I know it was terribly judgmental of me, but I still feel the same way. Get in or get out, but at the very least do not pretend you were (are) a member in good standing and then ridicule those that have the integrity to get in or out. :mad:

why me

10th September 2005, 12:33 PM

I find it interesting, why_me, that you direct this to POST mo's. When a TBM comes around trying to stir things up and telling us we have chosen the wrong path or we will burn in hell you seem very empathetic and supportive of them. I wonder why you don't give them the same message as above? Why do you direct that only to Post mos? Placing the blame on us for living the gospel as we are taught is wrong. I feel like I'm in church all over again. As a member we were never good enough and now as Post mos you are criticizing us by thinking WE chose our own interpretation of the gospel.

You are WAY off base.

As a TBM although I lived the church like I was taught I was always very open minded. There were many things in the church that I felt were way WRONG. (things like teaching against tattoos, piercings, not wearing pantyhose to church, having to wear dresses and ties, anitabortion-I've NEVER been anti-abortion, have 20 kids, etc, etc)

But the church teaches it's members that they are WRONG to be openminded. It is against the gospel. It is against Heavenly Father. You are to obey the prophet PERIOD, no questions asked. Do a search for the 14 fundamentals of a prophet that I posted several months ago. What the prophet says goes, period.

Many of us have gone to our bishops and stake presidents and tried having open conversations with them. We tried to be honest about who we are. I was once released from YW presidency because I wouldn't teach against birth control. I went to my bish and told him I was uncomfortable teaching the lesson. I refused to teach young girls anything about birth control. First, it was not the church's place, IMO, to teach such a thing. Second, I didn't agree with the lesson. I think birth control is a very personal choice. There are too many abused and unwanted children in the world.

I was "punished" for this. I was released and lectured that I need to obey the commandments and the prophet. That the lessons were prayed about and created how Heavenly Father wanted them to be.

So maybe what you are saying is to feel what you want, live like you want and just go to church and lie and pretend and decieve and then justify those deceptions???? My question would be why bother being a member, then?

I can't do that. And I think many of us are POST mos because we own that kind of integrity. I won't pretend to be anything I am not just for the sake of having the privilege to sit in a specific church or have membership in a church.

As Post Mos we are no longer in the mindset you believe we were in so I think you should cut us more slack and praise us for overcoming the clutches of the church, even if you think we are victims of our own interpretation of the gospel. (You are way off in your thinking there but I now understand why)

It is evident you have never experienced what we have as TBMs so I find you very unqualified to pass judgement or be critical of our experiences and feelings.

I know you lost your reply to one of my posts but I can't wait to hear why you are here at Post Mo when you find it so evident that we are our own victims.
I suppose that I am trying to figure out why people end up on postmo.org. It seemed to me that many members of this forum were very devout but were they too devout? This is where my moderation idea comes in. If a person is immersed in the gospel 24/7 without a balanced thought process or a life outside the church it seems that that person can become a 'victim' of mormonism. But if that individual is moderate in his or her time and practice in the faith would they have a more healthy mindset in relation to church and life? By moderate I refer to a meaning of seriousness. I suppose that there are many types of postmos and not just the former superactive types. I am sure that many former inactives would be postmo too if they had a post mindset or move beyond their former religion when it comes to mormonism. But would they have the same hostility toward the church? I am only thinking out loud here because I am questioning my own ideas. What happened to you is unfortunate but it seems to me that the leaders of your ward were idiots for their own seriousness about birth control and your attitude toward it. All that I am trying to say is that church life should not be an immersion process but rather an individual process of well being. Church life should be a life of moderation and not a life of immersion. No I have never lied about who I am. I have always been up front with my life and thought process when asked. I may not go into details though. Life is personal and it is important not to be a hypocrite. When my children asked for a blessing when they were going to travel with my ex-wife and husband (it was my first blessing ever and I didn't feel worthy but did enjoy the experience) I said to them that if I give you a blessing maybe you should get an insurance blessing from your stepdad too because of who I am in the church. They understood the meaning. I don't know what the answer is. But as I said before I don't want my daughters to end up bitter and angry about being lied too by the church etc. If they wish to leave the church, I want them to do so with a healthy mentality. But how can this be accomplished if not by living with an attitude of moderation?
I wouldn't go to the bishop about my problems unless I thought he was a 'moderate' man who understood the perils of life. I would take my chances with that kind of guy even though it could end up the same way in the end.
I am sorry I lost my other post...it was a good post with a lot of explanation. I have decided not to log in why I press the reply button but rather immediately when I press the community part at the top. Take care silverfox...I am only thinking out loud. :)

helemon

10th September 2005, 01:43 PM

Helemon, it's called chain of command. FEMA is not there to help the people, they are there to help manage the government forces during a crisis. The city had the ultimate responsibility. Then the parish, then the state and THEN the feds. :duh

But the city declared a state of emergency and so did the governor and asked the feds to bring in help even before Haley Barbour. So why the delay? I heard it was because the governor would not turn over all authority over NO to the Feds because she was afraid they would impose martial law.

silverfox

10th September 2005, 03:23 PM

I suppose that I am trying to figure out why people end up on postmo.org. It seemed to me that many members of this forum were very devout but were they too devout? This is where my moderation idea comes in. If a person is immersed in the gospel 24/7 without a balanced thought process or a life outside the church it seems that that person can become a 'victim' of mormonism. But if that individual is moderate in his or her time and practice in the faith would they have a more healthy mindset in relation to church and life? By moderate I refer to a meaning of seriousness. I suppose that there are many types of postmos and not just the former superactive types. I am sure that many former inactives would be postmo too if they had a post mindset or move beyond their former religion when it comes to mormonism. But would they have the same hostility toward the church? I am only thinking out loud here because I am questioning my own ideas. What happened to you is unfortunate but it seems to me that the leaders of your ward were idiots for their own seriousness about birth control and your attitude toward it. All that I am trying to say is that church life should not be an immersion process but rather an individual process of well being. Church life should be a life of moderation and not a life of immersion. No I have never lied about who I am. I have always been up front with my life and thought process when asked. I may not go into details though. Life is personal and it is important not to be a hypocrite. When my children asked for a blessing when they were going to travel with my ex-wife and husband (it was my first blessing ever and I didn't feel worthy but did enjoy the experience) I said to them that if I give you a blessing maybe you should get an insurance blessing from your stepdad too because of who I am in the church. They understood the meaning. I don't know what the answer is. But as I said before I don't want my daughters to end up bitter and angry about being lied too by the church etc. If they wish to leave the church, I want them to do so with a healthy mentality. But how can this be accomplished if not by living with an attitude of moderation?
I wouldn't go to the bishop about my problems unless I thought he was a 'moderate' man who understood the perils of life. I would take my chances with that kind of guy even though it could end up the same way in the end.
I am sorry I lost my other post...it was a good post with a lot of explanation. I have decided not to log in why I press the reply button but rather immediately when I press the community part at the top. Take care silverfox...I am only thinking out loud. :)

But the thing is, why_me, the church strongly encourages engagement with the doctrine, the church, everything 24/7. Do you understand there is no tolerance for moderation? None. Period. It is not acceptable. Period. No, you can't just wear your garments now and then, and you can't drink just one cup of coffee a day, and you can't drink just one alcoholic drink every few days and you can't ask questions, etc, etc, etc.

I don't think you get it. You don't know what it is like to be TBM and fully engaged in the mindf*ck. And then to find out it all ended up just being a mindf*ck anyway. Very painful process.

I was refused a temple recommend because I have four piercings in one ear. I was told to remove them. I was given $hit because I wouldn't wear pantyhose when teaching Young Women. I was told I had to be an example and wear panty hose - no bare toes/legs allowed. WTF???? I didn't understand what difference it made. I was always being praised about how good of a teacher I was, how well I could relate to the girls, how comfortable I made people feel when they were around me. But it was never good enough.

No matter how much many of us tried to live in moderation within the church it was not acceptable. We wanted to be good members, we did everything we were supposed to only to have it never be enough.

Of course there are stages of anger and bitterness but I don't think you understand that it doesn't last forever for most of us. Just because me make a smart assed remark about the church now and then doesn't mean we are consumed with anger and bitterness. It doesn't mean we are obssessed or can't let go. It means our feelings have been validated and we are finally allowed to express ourselves in an environment where we can do so and not be ridiculed. And people listen and understand.

I hope your daughters never have to experience feeling like they are not good enough in the church no matter what they do, I hope they are never asked by their bishop if they masturbate, and I hope they are never molested by a church member (or anyone for that matter)

I hope as you continue to participate here that you can get a true feel for what it must have been like for so many of us.

And I hope the next time a TBM does another hit and run post you will advise them to live the gospel in moderation. We'll see how far that gets you with them.

silverfox

10th September 2005, 03:30 PM

But the city declared a state of emergency and so did the governor and asked the feds to bring in help even before Haley Barbour. So why the delay? I heard it was because the governor would not turn over all authority over NO to the Feds because she was afraid they would impose martial law.

Regardless who's responsibility it was ALL governments knew of the suffering - the hunger, deydration, violence, etc. So there are no excuses.

Can you imagine sitting behind a desk knowing what is going on and saying, "Oh, I can't do anything cuz the Senator didn't give me permission". WTF? I would rather take the heat for doing TOO MUCH than doing nothing and allowing people to die. Bush / FEMA would be heroes right now instead of a$$wipes.

I have never been so disgusted.

The mayor declared martial law anyway.

helemon

10th September 2005, 03:45 PM

Regardless who's responsibility it was ALL governments knew of the suffering - the hunger, deydration, violence, etc. So there are no excuses.

Can you imagine sitting behind a desk knowing what is going on and saying, "Oh, I can't do anything cuz the Senator didn't give me permission". WTF? I would rather take the heat for doing TOO MUCH than doing nothing and allowing people to die. Bush / FEMA would be heroes right now instead of a$$wipes.

I have never been so disgusted.

The mayor declared martial law anyway.

Bush was briefed about it on Sun. Bush was talking to Chertoff on Mon about imigration problems rather than huricane relief. Brown on national TV said he didn't know about the situation "for real" until Thursday. What does he think the national news was faking all of that on some sound stage in LA? What a clueless bunch of idiots!

Oh well, I guess it worked out in the end for Bush Co. Halliburton and Betchel are getting some HUGE contracts to clean up the mess. And we the American people will
be paying a hell of a lot more than the $14 billion it would have cost to fix the levees in the first place. Fiscal conservatives, my ass! If a Democrat had been president the Republicans would have impeachment proceedings underway by now.

noodle

10th September 2005, 04:49 PM

It was when I could finally let go of the judgement that I could experience the spirit of the place to which I had come--and I fell in love with it.

The NEXT time I came to New Orleans, I soaked it up, spending every evening in the French Quarter (which can, in places, be the most tacky place in the world), but which also housed incredible food, wonderful culture, rich and lively music, including my Uncle who was playing in a funny little bar where I ordered a Diet Coke, much to the bemusement of the bartender, who was willing to buy me whatever drink I wanted, since I was "Phillip's nephew all the way from Idaho."
Peter_Mary

I have visited NOLA twice, and had similar experiences to P_M's. The first time, I suppose that I was a bit of a stiff. I was disgusted by the young prostitutes, the urine smell in the air, the seedy characters trying to lure me into peep shoes, and by the stores selling voodoo items and hats with penises on top. :eek: I had my kids with me, so that may have contributed to my reluctance to get into the spirit of things (aka: tight anal sphincter).

The second time was oh so different! While it wasn't Mardi Gras, I was so much more relaxed. I absolutely loved it. The cuisine was superb, as was the bottle of wine I shared with a friend over an incredible meal whilst listening to live jazz music. Later that night, a fellow stopped us on Bourbon St to warn us that we should go no further - that we were exiting the safer part of Bourbon St. He asked my girlfriend and me if we were lovers (lesbians), and we said no. He handed us some seeds which he claimed had voodoo powers, and asked for $ for a beer. A group of us conference attendees enjoyed another evening with live cajun music. We danced the night away. We also visited a voodoo museum, and planned to have our palms read, but got lost in the maze of the house, and decided against it. The smell of marijuana in the air added to the ambience. All in all, it was an amazing cultural experience, even for a born and bred southerner like me. It's a place like no other. Oh what I would do to go back there - for the music, the food, and maybe even one of those penis hats!

mamajama

Born Free

10th September 2005, 08:16 PM

I suppose that I am trying to figure out why people end up on postmo.org. It seemed to me that many members of this forum were very devout but were they too devout? This is where my moderation idea comes in.

<snip>

I am sorry I lost my other post...it was a good post with a lot of explanation. I have decided not to log in why I press the reply button but rather immediately when I press the community part at the top. Take care silverfox...I am only thinking out loud. :)

Why Me,

I have concluded over the years that being Mormon has some similarities with being Jewish (theoretical, I concede in that as close as I get to being Jewish is being circumcized), in that both appear to generate a strong sense of being an outsider. Both generate a sense of being both superiour (God's Chosen), and inferiour (everyone keep picking on me for being different).

Why Me, you seem (from my observation) to have doubled that up again. You have lived on the fringe of Mormonism, so you have existed on the margins of a marginal existence. :Crazy:

That could be interpreted as 'moderation', or it could have other interpretations. Does that generate new levels of superiority? Does it generate new levels of inferiority? What does that say of committment? I/You/Anyone could keep throwing questions at what that means or says.

Can one be a fringe dweller of a cult that by its own definition defines fringe dwellers as 'lukewarm', to be 'spewed forth from the belly'. I agree with Silverfox that by the Mormon definitions I understand, you would be seen as 'lukewarm'. So, I can relate to Silverfox, who seems to be getting her discomfort into focus, when she says "Why Me, where the hell do you stand?"

Over there (MoLand) you were on the fringes rejecting much of the religion, and therefore not really sucking the lemon. Then you come over here, to a site set up in large part for people who want to cleanse the lemon taste in their mouth, chasten us for complaining about the lemon taste, and then being all buddy-buddy with the TBMs about the taste of mandarines. That is not to mention, telling us you want to hear more about the taste of mandarines from us.

Now, from this perspective that seems ...........; ........... well frankly I am regularly flummoxed for words.

I really wonder some time if you might be happier on a site like 'Post-Marginal-Mormons, who never really lived the religion, so still can't work out whether they want to be in or out'. Have you considered if you might be happier there, avoiding the hassles you regularly get in here? But then again there is a certain sense of the moral high ground about your position here, I suspect?

The trouble is, that from my perspective, what appears to me to be moral high (pacifist) ground for you, looks like a rubbery uncomitted, intellectually inconsistent position.

Further, your stance appears to keep you in familiar territory here at Post-Mo; operating on the fringes. Indeed it could be argued you have taken it to another level. If Post-Mos are one form of a fringe of the Mormon experience, then you are now in the third tier - fringe of fringe of fringe. That must make you part of a very select elite.

(Walks from keyboard asking "Does being a devout communist in the USA add another fringe level or not? Or is that another dimension, or in the same pattern of fringiness?" :Crazy: )

Daryl

helemon

11th September 2005, 01:02 AM

But the thing is, why_me, the church strongly encourages engagement with the doctrine, the church, everything 24/7. Do you understand there is no tolerance for moderation? None. Period. It is not acceptable. Period. No, you can't just wear your garments now and then, and you can't drink just one cup of coffee a day, and you can't drink just one alcoholic drink every few days and you can't ask questions, etc, etc, etc.

For Why Me:

"Let me quote a very powerful comment from President Ezra Taft Benson, who said, “The Book of Mormon is the keystone of [our] testimony. Just as the arch crumbles if the keystone is removed, so does all the Church stand or fall with the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon. The enemies of the Church understand this clearly. This is why they go to such great lengths to try to disprove the Book of Mormon, for if it can be discredited, the Prophet Joseph Smith goes with it. So does our claim to priesthood keys, and revelation, and the restored Church..."

"To hear someone so remarkable say something so tremendously bold, so overwhelming in its implications, that everything in the Church — everything — rises or falls on the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon and, by implication, the Prophet Joseph Smith’s account of how it came forth, can be a little breathtaking. It sounds like a “sudden death” proposition to me. Either the Book of Mormon is what the Prophet Joseph said it is or this Church and its founder are false, fraudulent, a deception from the first instance onward."

"Either Joseph Smith was the prophet he said he was, who, after seeing the Father and the Son, later beheld the angel Moroni, repeatedly heard counsel from his lips, eventually receiving at his hands a set of ancient gold plates which he then translated according to the gift and power of God—or else he did not. And if he did not, in the spirit of President Benson’s comment, he is not entitled to retain even the reputation of New England folk hero or well-meaning young man or writer of remarkable fiction. No, and he is not entitled to be considered a great teacher or a quintessential American prophet or the creator of great wisdom literature. If he lied about the coming forth of the Book of Mormon, he is certainly none of those."

"I am suggesting that we make exactly that same kind of do-or-die, bold assertion about the restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ and the divine origins of the Book of Mormon. We have to. Reason and rightness require it. Accept Joseph Smith as a prophet and the book as the miraculously revealed and revered word of the Lord it is or else consign both man and book to Hades for the devastating deception of it all, but let’s not have any bizarre middle ground about the wonderful contours of a young boy’s imagination or his remarkable facility for turning a literary phrase. That is an unacceptable position to take—morally, literarily, historically, or theologically."
- Apostle Jeffrey R. Holland, “True or False,” New Era, June 1995, Page 64 (Excerpted from a CES Symposium address given at Brigham Young University on August 9, 1994.)

why me

11th September 2005, 08:32 AM

Why Me,

I have concluded over the years that being Mormon has some similarities with being Jewish (theoretical, I concede in that as close as I get to being Jewish is being circumcized), in that both appear to generate a strong sense of being an outsider. Both generate a sense of being both superiour (God's Chosen), and inferiour (everyone keep picking on me for being different).

Why Me, you seem (from my observation) to have doubled that up again. You have lived on the fringe of Mormonism, so you have existed on the margins of a marginal existence. :Crazy:

That could be interpreted as 'moderation', or it could have other interpretations. Does that generate new levels of superiority? Does it generate new levels of inferiority? What does that say of committment? I/You/Anyone could keep throwing questions at what that means or says.

Can one be a fringe dweller of a cult that by its own definition defines fringe dwellers as 'lukewarm', to be 'spewed forth from the belly'. I agree with Silverfox that by the Mormon definitions I understand, you would be seen as 'lukewarm'. So, I can relate to Silverfox, who seems to be getting her discomfort into focus, when she says "Why Me, where the hell do you stand?"

Over there (MoLand) you were on the fringes rejecting much of the religion, and therefore not really sucking the lemon. Then you come over here, to a site set up in large part for people who want to cleanse the lemon taste in their mouth, chasten us for complaining about the lemon taste, and then being all buddy-buddy with the TBMs about the taste of mandarines. That is not to mention, telling us you want to hear more about the taste of mandarines from us.

Now, from this perspective that seems ...........; ........... well frankly I am regularly flummoxed for words.

I really wonder some time if you might be happier on a site like 'Post-Marginal-Mormons, who never really lived the religion, so still can't work out whether they want to be in or out'. Have you considered if you might be happier there, avoiding the hassles you regularly get in here? But then again there is a certain sense of the moral high ground about your position here, I suspect?

The trouble is, that from my perspective, what appears to me to be moral high (pacifist) ground for you, looks like a rubbery uncomitted, intellectually inconsistent position.

Further, your stance appears to keep you in familiar territory here at Post-Mo; operating on the fringes. Indeed it could be argued you have taken it to another level. If Post-Mos are one form of a fringe of the Mormon experience, then you are now in the third tier - fringe of fringe of fringe. That must make you part of a very select elite.

(Walks from keyboard asking "Does being a devout communist in the USA add another fringe level or not? Or is that another dimension, or in the same pattern of fringiness?" :Crazy: )

Daryl
Yes, in mormonism I lived on the fringes I suppose. As P_M said I lived at the mouth of the cave. Living on the fringe is never easy but I am sure that many do as I do. Howver living at the mouth does not necessarily mean having the life that I led. It just means that a person is not existing in the belly. How many fringe catholics or methodists are there? I suppose many likewise for other faiths. Churches are made up of fringers or as the evengelical church might say: backsliders. We are all not fully commited to church. Mormons are the same as other christian church members in this regard. What I have found strange is that as members some of the postmos here would have been condemning my lifestyle because of its fringe underpinnings. Of course I can't know this for sure but I suppose they would because they were superactive in church. And now many have went the other way and are just as commited to the other direction---but me...I am still on the fringe. I am not sure what is better...

You see daryl, I was more a commited marxist/communist when I was younger. I had that outlet for my belief system as a human being. Church members knew my political beliefs and the patriarch wanted me to discuss the issue at a fireside: 'Can a christian be a socialist' with a superconservative member. I also attended a YA discussion group on Hans Kung's book 'On being a christian'. Hans Kung is a catholic theologian. Life was different in New York for church members. There were fringe people there but not living my lifestyle. But if I am honest my memory is fuzzy now and so maybe I don't remember it all correctly.
But I wasn't on the fringes in the communist movement but the movement was on the fringes in american society. Strange huh?

Moderation is not to be on the fringe...it is only to have a more balanced life than P_M's belly experience...that's all and I think that it can be done because it is a matter of choice. And a LDSer can still be faithful in doing so. It is just to have a life also outside of church life and to ignore some of the belly people that a person may come across.
I think that on the latterday saint liberation front website or the feminist mormon housewives website there are moderate people posting.

silverfox

11th September 2005, 10:09 AM

Yes, in mormonism I lived on the fringes I suppose. As P_M said I lived at the mouth of the cave. Living on the fringe is never easy but I am sure that many do as I do. Howver living at the mouth does not necessarily mean having the life that I led. It just means that a person is not existing in the belly. How many fringe catholics or methodists are there? I suppose many likewise for other faiths. Churches are made up of fringers or as the evengelical church might say: backsliders. We are all not fully commited to church. Mormons are the same as other christian church members in this regard. What I have found strange is that as members some of the postmos here would have been condemning my lifestyle because of its fringe underpinnings. Of course I can't know this for sure but I suppose they would because they were superactive in church. And now many have went the other way and are just as commited to the other direction---but me...I am still on the fringe. I am not sure what is better...

You see daryl, I was more a commited marxist/communist when I was younger. I had that outlet for my belief system as a human being. Church members knew my political beliefs and the patriarch wanted me to discuss the issue at a fireside: 'Can a christian be a socialist' with a superconservative member. I also attended a YA discussion group on Hans Kung's book 'On being a christian'. Hans Kung is a catholic theologian. Life was different in New York for church members. There were fringe people there but not living my lifestyle. But if I am honest my memory is fuzzy now and so maybe I don't remember it all correctly.
But I wasn't on the fringes in the communist movement but the movement was on the fringes in american society. Strange huh?

Moderation is not to be on the fringe...it is only to have a more balanced life than P_M's belly experience...that's all and I think that it can be done because it is a matter of choice. And a LDSer can still be faithful in doing so. It is just to have a life also outside of church life and to ignore some of the belly people that a person may come across.
I think that on the latterday saint liberation front website or the feminist mormon housewives website there are moderate people posting.

It just seems you are dancing around us, not acknowledging our experiences, our frustrations as Mos, etc, etc. It's simple to you.....hell, just stay on the fringe. Because you were never TBM you will NEVER understand what we have been through.

I get the feeling you have no interest really in getting it. You say you do, but I don't see it. You say you want to know why folks come to Post Mo. Hell, have you read ANY of the threads???? There are many many valid reasons. What are you waiting to hear? I don't understand.

I am just glad I finally get where you are coming from. Your reactions to our posts make more sense now.

I believe even here at Post Mo you are dancing on the fringe. You have never fully engaged but I think that is because you can't fully understand what Post Mo is all about. I still am confused as to why you are here. I am not saying you are not welcome. I just don't get why.

There is a site that seems perfect for you:

http://www.aimoo.com/forum/freeboard.cfm?id=401414

FOLK OF THE FRINGE

"This is a forum for Fringe Mormons: people who aren't orthodox believers, but who also aren't hostile toward the faith. We are a diverse community of internet friends who share some connection to Mormonism. We welcome new participants from all religious backgrounds to enjoy vibrant, civil discussions"

why me

11th September 2005, 11:51 AM

It just seems you are dancing around us, not acknowledging our experiences, our frustrations as Mos, etc, etc. It's simple to you.....hell, just stay on the fringe. Because you were never TBM you will NEVER understand what we have been through.

I get the feeling you have no interest really in getting it. You say you do, but I don't see it. You say you want to know why folks come to Post Mo. Hell, have you read ANY of the threads???? There are many many valid reasons. What are you waiting to hear? I don't understand.

I am just glad I finally get where you are coming from. Your reactions to our posts make more sense now.

I believe even here at Post Mo you are dancing on the fringe. You have never fully engaged but I think that is because you can't fully understand what Post Mo is all about. I still am confused as to why you are here. I am not saying you are not welcome. I just don't get why.

There is a site that seems perfect for you:

http://www.aimoo.com/forum/freeboard.cfm?id=401414

FOLK OF THE FRINGE

"This is a forum for Fringe Mormons: people who aren't orthodox believers, but who also aren't hostile toward the faith. We are a diverse community of internet friends who share some connection to Mormonism. We welcome new participants from all religious backgrounds to enjoy vibrant, civil discussions"
Actually I do acknowledge the experiences here...I just don't want others to experience the same emotions. The question is: How not to experience the emotions that have been presented on postmo.org? If a member continues to live in the belly and then becomes disillusioned---well---there is bitterness because of a wasted life feeling or because of a great sense of betrayal bitterness and resentment comes into the heart. This seems to be the fundalmental feelings on this site. Now I can understand the feelings...really I can but how can a member of the lds church avoid them? And here is my moderation idea. A member lives at the mouth trying to live a good and decent life like any christian with a willingness to engage the universe in thought and learning. I think that a member who lives at the mouth has a better chance of survival away from bitterness than someone in the belly. That is my premise. It is too late for many members here but how to save others from the same feelings? To leave and move on is one thing but to leave and feel bitterness and betrayal is quite another. To my mind the leave and move on would be best but that can only be done from life at the mouth and not in the belly---hence moderation in all things. I think what I am trying to say is quite human. Why would I want anyone regardless of the situation to feel bitterness or anger? I am only trying to find a remedy for the bitterness which can happen to other people in the church who are belly dwellers. Nothing more. Do I recognize the pain here? You bet! But why would I want others to experience it? Why would I want my daughters to experience it? I can only give my daughters the moderation idea and hope for the best. Thanks for the website...but I like it here too. If I were a genuine postmormon (someone who has definitely moved on regardless of my fringe connection do you think that I would feel bitter or anger? Well...who knows but I would hope not.
Hopefully, I would have just moved on that's all and still would post the same way. To move on doesn't only mean to down the church etc...it can just mean to move and experience new aspects of life in its full glory--whatever that may be without regret or bitterness of church membership. Postmormon feeling can engulf many aspects of temperment and feelings...in reality it is a rainbow of feelings with various personal colors of personal circumstances formed inside the church. Each postmo rainbow is different and exclusive with touches of affinities with other people in the same situation of thought and understanding. And in truth silverfox, some postmos actually do remember good things they experienced in the church---I would like that attitude for my daughters if they ever leave the church. But how can I as a father give that possible foundation? Ahh...and it is in that question that I am trying to find an answer...

why me

11th September 2005, 12:23 PM

silverfox

11th September 2005, 12:31 PM

Actually I do acknowledge the experiences here...I just don't want others to experience the same emotions. The question is: How not to experience the emotions that have been presented on postmo.org? If a member continues to live in the belly and then becomes disillusioned---well---there is bitterness because of a wasted life feeling or because of a great sense of betrayal bitterness and resentment comes into the heart. This seems to be the fundalmental feelings on this site. Now I can understand the feelings...really I can but how can a member of the lds church avoid them? And here is my moderation idea. A member lives at the mouth trying to live a good and decent life like any christian with a willingness to engage the universe in thought and learning. I think that a member who lives at the mouth has a better chance of survival away from bitterness than someone in the belly. That is my premise. It is too late for many members here but how to save others from the same feelings? To leave and move on is one thing but to leave and feel bitterness and betrayal is quite another. To my mind the leave and move on would be best but that can only be done from life at the mouth and not in the belly---hence moderation in all things. I think what I am trying to say is quite human. Why would I want anyone regardless of the situation to feel bitterness or anger? I am only trying to find a remedy for the bitterness which can happen to other people in the church who are belly dwellers. Nothing more. Do I recognize the pain here? You bet! But why would I want others to experience it? Why would I want my daughters to experience it? I can only give my daughters the moderation idea and hope for the best. Thanks for the website...but I like it here too. If I were a genuine postmormon (someone who has definitely moved on regardless of my fringe connection do you think that I would feel bitter or anger? Well...who knows but I would hope not.
Hopefully, I would have just moved on that's all and still would post the same way. To move on doesn't only mean to down the church etc...it can just mean to move and experience new aspects of life in its full glory--whatever that may be without regret or bitterness of church membership. Postmormon feeling can engulf many aspects of temperment and feelings...in reality it is a rainbow of feelings with various personal colors of personal circumstances formed inside the church. Each postmo rainbow is different and exclusive with touches of affinities with other people in the same situation of thought and understanding. And in truth silverfox, some postmos actually do remember good things they experienced in the church---I would like that attitude for my daughters if they ever leave the church. But how can I as a father give that possible foundation? Ahh...and it is in that question that I am trying to find an answer...

Again YOU DON'T GET IT! To avoid the anger and bitterness you have to understand why it exists. Because you were never TBM, IMO, you will never understand it. Period.

You make it sound like we are a bunch of angry bitter people consumed with the church. YOU ARE SOOOOOO WRONG. You are unable to read between the lines. Of course because of the intent and content of this site the focus here is on church crap. This forum is a VERY small part of most of our lives and shouldn't be assumed to present completely WHO we are.

The intent of this site is to share experiences to help others who have left the church. Part of the intent of this site is to validate the anger and bitterness amongst other emotions and to help work through them.

Anger and bitterness are such a huge part of the healing process. It's okay to be angry and bitter as long as it is productive. There is great use in those emotions. Why devalue them????

Have you never felt bitterness or anger?

I think I am about done with this conversation because it is obvious you can't seem to get it.

I am grateful for the exchange. It has answered a lot of questions I had about you and why your posts were so damned confusing for me at times. But I can clearly now see where you are coming from.......out on the fringe.

Born Free

11th September 2005, 06:37 PM

I just went to the site that you recommended, In their introduction of living on the fringe in poem form it read: 'Most of us were mormons once, some of us still are...' How can someone be on the fringe of the church and be out of the church? They just seem to be postmormons who allow fringe members to join in but I would not call it a fringe mormon forum...it is just a different postmormon outfit. Thanks anyway.

Why Me,

Can I ask a few questions I regard pertinent to this discourse?

How did your former spouse live Mo? Was she and is she now a fringe dweller or TBM?

Based upon that, are your daughters getting a 'fringe' or deep-Mormon experience?

Daryl

dancinfree

11th September 2005, 07:12 PM

Actually I do acknowledge the experiences here...I just don't want others to experience the same emotions. The question is: How not to experience the emotions that have been presented on postmo.org? If a member continues to live in the belly and then becomes disillusioned---well---there is bitterness because of a wasted life feeling or because of a great sense of betrayal bitterness and resentment comes into the heart. This seems to be the fundalmental feelings on this site. Now I can understand the feelings...really I can but how can a member of the lds church avoid them? And here is my moderation idea. A member lives at the mouth trying to live a good and decent life like any christian with a willingness to engage the universe in thought and learning. I think that a member who lives at the mouth has a better chance of survival away from bitterness than someone in the belly. That is my premise. It is too late for many members here but how to save others from the same feelings? To leave and move on is one thing but to leave and feel bitterness and betrayal is quite another. To my mind the leave and move on would be best but that can only be done from life at the mouth and not in the belly---hence moderation in all things. I think what I am trying to say is quite human. Why would I want anyone regardless of the situation to feel bitterness or anger? I am only trying to find a remedy for the bitterness which can happen to other people in the church who are belly dwellers. Nothing more. Do I recognize the pain here? You bet! But why would I want others to experience it? Why would I want my daughters to experience it? I can only give my daughters the moderation idea and hope for the best. Thanks for the website...but I like it here too. If I were a genuine postmormon (someone who has definitely moved on regardless of my fringe connection do you think that I would feel bitter or anger? Well...who knows but I would hope not.
Hopefully, I would have just moved on that's all and still would post the same way. To move on doesn't only mean to down the church etc...it can just mean to move and experience new aspects of life in its full glory--whatever that may be without regret or bitterness of church membership. Postmormon feeling can engulf many aspects of temperment and feelings...in reality it is a rainbow of feelings with various personal colors of personal circumstances formed inside the church. Each postmo rainbow is different and exclusive with touches of affinities with other people in the same situation of thought and understanding. And in truth silverfox, some postmos actually do remember good things they experienced in the church---I would like that attitude for my daughters if they ever leave the church. But how can I as a father give that possible foundation? Ahh...and it is in that question that I am trying to find an answer...

Oh Why Me,
Now I see also where you are coming from and it all makes sense now. IMO, You love safety....that goes with your political and religious views nicely. Do you really think that you can stop someone from feeling? Your daughters will feel what they will..so will you. We all get that freedom, I hope. There is no "saving" anyone from feeling nor would I want that anyway.

I am a risk-taker and that goes along with my religious and political views...I was willing to take the risk to jump into the belly of mormonism..I chose to believe in it..not just some of it or choose what worked and screw the rest. Of course I took Mormonism seriously...this was my salvation, my eternity, my relationship with God....how could it NOT be serious? The church's doctrine is that it's the "belly" or nothing. That's where I got that view.

I needed to be in the belly and for awhile I went to the fringe....but after awhile, I took the risk and let go. I needed to decide and life provided me with a natural evolvement to that decision. I had to decide or go NUTS because of what Mormonism demands in regards to obedience and faith and righteousness and I couldn't believe that anymore. Sitting on the fence didn't serve me anymore.

Once I let go...there was no bitterness...no animosity...just joy in finally letting it all go and realizing the value in what I chose from it all. But even if I did feel anger and resentment, well, then good for me. I'm human!! I get to feel and grow and learn!! That is the gift of this life. I have experienced more peace and joy because I was once in the belly and the journey out of it has been that much sweeter. I wouldn't have wanted you or anyone to deprive me of my learning or how I chose to feel about it all.

So in a way, I "get" you more and for that, I smile. Enjoy your journey and all that you choose to believe and feel. Take care! :)

why me

11th September 2005, 11:12 PM

Why Me,

Can I ask a few questions I regard pertinent to this discourse?

How did your former spouse live Mo? Was she and is she now a fringe dweller or TBM?

Based upon that, are your daughters getting a 'fringe' or deep-Mormon experience?

Daryl
Hi daryl,
Thanks for the questions! My former wife was and still is a die-hard TBM. My daughters are being raised with their mom and her TBM husband. They are TBM. My ex never liked my fringe attitude---and by that I mean my lack of activity in the church ie: not attending meetings, not encouraging FHE, or family prayer, not holding callings etc. It became a problem for us but not the only problem of course. Although I will respond to dancinfree later...I think that most fathers would want to protect their children from needless pain and anger if they could...it is quite natural. I don't think that silverfox quite got what I was trying to say but perhaps I garbled up my message. Take care down there...enjoy your summer! The weather is changing to summer right? :)

why me

12th September 2005, 09:44 AM

Oh Why Me,
Now I see also where you are coming from and it all makes sense now. IMO, You love safety....that goes with your political and religious views nicely. Do you really think that you can stop someone from feeling? Your daughters will feel what they will..so will you. We all get that freedom, I hope. There is no "saving" anyone from feeling nor would I want that anyway.

I am a risk-taker and that goes along with my religious and political views...I was willing to take the risk to jump into the belly of mormonism..I chose to believe in it..not just some of it or choose what worked and screw the rest. Of course I took Mormonism seriously...this was my salvation, my eternity, my relationship with God....how could it NOT be serious? The church's doctrine is that it's the "belly" or nothing. That's where I got that view.

I needed to be in the belly and for awhile I went to the fringe....but after awhile, I took the risk and let go. I needed to decide and life provided me with a natural evolvement to that decision. I had to decide or go NUTS because of what Mormonism demands in regards to obedience and faith and righteousness and I couldn't believe that anymore. Sitting on the fence didn't serve me anymore.

Once I let go...there was no bitterness...no animosity...just joy in finally letting it all go and realizing the value in what I chose from it all. But even if I did feel anger and resentment, well, then good for me. I'm human!! I get to feel and grow and learn!! That is the gift of this life. I have experienced more peace and joy because I was once in the belly and the journey out of it has been that much sweeter. I wouldn't have wanted you or anyone to deprive me of my learning or how I chose to feel about it all.

So in a way, I "get" you more and for that, I smile. Enjoy your journey and all that you choose to believe and feel. Take care! :)
I am glad that you finally get me. It is strange but I have been rather up front in this forum and so I think that I have explained myself before. But it is good to be finally understood. I think, dancinfree, that we are all products of the past both in large and in small ways. I believe that the past is always with us. Who I am today has something to do with my past, perhaps from childhood when my mother and father were writing my biography. Now as an adult I am writing my own biography with their influence in the background. But also I need to take my social conditioning into account too. Where I was born and my experiences of my town are all a part of who I am too. I am an only child...separated by many miles from cousins and other relatives. Everything plays a part of my makeup today. Not to mention other experiences that have occured in my life. I am not saying that all of this was bad---far from it. Like most, I have the good and bad mixing on one thread---all contributing pages to my biography. Life is not always contemplated or simple. My political views came from my own observations that were centered in my own social environment. And my religious views are more difficult to pinpoint but I am not ready to be angry or say this or that is not true. What do I know? I think that it is wonderful that you are not angry and that you are living your life in personal freedom and well-being. This is a great thing to have or possess. I realize that I cannot deny my daughters pain if pain is there but I can try to soften the pain if pain wants to be there. If I knew that my daughters could be with your attitude about the church or with Miss Taken's attitude about church life---I would have no worries or concerns. And if people can feel anger or pain about church life and still lead a good multi-purposed life as silverfox---well---that is great too. But the pain which leads to great sorrow and regret coupled with loss of well-being---well---I thought want that for my daughters. That was all my point was. Thanks again for your response...take care of the poetry--- :)

Born Free

12th September 2005, 05:35 PM

Hi daryl,
Thanks for the questions! My former wife was and still is a die-hard TBM. My daughters are being raised with their mom and her TBM husband. They are TBM. My ex never liked my fringe attitude---and by that I mean my lack of activity in the church ie: not attending meetings, not encouraging FHE, or family prayer, not holding callings etc. It became a problem for us but not the only problem of course. Although I will respond to dancinfree later...I think that most fathers would want to protect their children from needless pain and anger if they could...it is quite natural. I don't think that silverfox quite got what I was trying to say but perhaps I garbled up my message. Take care down there...enjoy your summer! The weather is changing to summer right? :)

How could I possibly enjoy the oncoming summer? We just lost the Ashes to the Poms after keeping it for nearly 20 years. :eek: (The Ashes for the uninitiated, is a small ern holding the ashes of a burnt set of cricket stumps, which is the prized trophy for pinnacle test cricket series between the wingeing Poms, and we, the colonial riff-raff (who normally whop their butts)).

But on a bighter note, cricket is alive and well again, now that we haven't got it all our own way. The Poms, of course, will be off their face for a week of celebration.

Back to the original content, what you said does not surprise me one bit, and offers a big explanation as to how you engage here. By your description, your girls are in the belly of the Beast, sorry I meant cave, so our hand-wringing from our belly-experiences must elevate your anxiety. Somewhere close to the money?

Daryl