This is the first time I have participated in a forum like this

[aaronlfa]

Hi, I really have not ever posted like this, but I was attracted to the post-mormon website and I was moved by the message on the home page. I started to read the discussion threads and I thought this might be a goodplace to try and get help. I was raised LDS, I am an Eagle Scout, and I successfully completed a mission (made it to Zone Leader status). While I was on my mission I came to the realization that I did not believe in everything I was told as a child. While I played out the rest of the mission, came home and pretended to live the perfect post mission life, I slowly started to find ways to disengage from the LDS Church. I found the perfect non-mormon wife (everything about her is mormon except she wasn't a member) and while my family was sure I would convert her soon, that is not the case (after 10 years of marriage) and we now have two great children (still happily married). My son turns 8 next week and getting close to this date my family has been giving me a lot of pressure to baptize him. While I am firm to let them know that we do not plan to do this, it is taking this event to bring some conversations up that I have been doing my best to avoid for a long time. I have a lot of tension about the church right now, a lot of feelings of frustration and anger that I really can't explain. I don't feel like I want to go through any deprogramming (I am not quite sure what that process is) but I am looking to see if there is someone or a group in my area that I could meet who has a similar expereince with the church. I live near downtown San Diego so if anyone knows of a group or someone in the area in a similar situation to me that would be nice to know. Thanks!

[peter_mary]

aaronlfa!

Welcome to PostMo! Sounds like lots of tough things coming up. I can't speak for others in San Diego (although it seems like there was a post a long time ago from someone wondering if there was a support group in the San Diego area...try doing a search on the forum for San Diego and see what you get.)

But I would highly recommend this place as a great place to work out some of your thoughts and ambivalence. I know that for me, personally, I work stuff out really well when I'm writing, and when I hit "send" on the computer, it often is very releasing, since I'm just launching it to the universe, with no need to every engage with it again if I don't choose to.

But I usually choose to, 'cause there's always someone out there with a different perspective, something useful to add. I'd encourage you to stay, chat, and see what happens. And if you choose not to, that's cool, too, just unfortunate for the rest of us!

Welcome, and I hope you feel at home.

Peter_Mary

[silverfox]

Hi, I really have not ever posted like this, but I was attracted to the post-mormon website and I was moved by the message on the home page. I started to read the discussion threads and I thought this might be a goodplace to try and get help. I was raised LDS, I am an Eagle Scout, and I successfully completed a mission (made it to Zone Leader status). While I was on my mission I came to the realization that I did not believe in everything I was told as a child. While I played out the rest of the mission, came home and pretended to live the perfect post mission life, I slowly started to find ways to disengage from the LDS Church. I found the perfect non-mormon wife (everything about her is mormon except she wasn't a member) and while my family was sure I would convert her soon, that is not the case (after 10 years of marriage) and we now have two great children (still happily married). My son turns 8 next week and getting close to this date my family has been giving me a lot of pressure to baptize him. While I am firm to let them know that we do not plan to do this, it is taking this event to bring some conversations up that I have been doing my best to avoid for a long time. I have a lot of tension about the church right now, a lot of feelings of frustration and anger that I really can't explain. I don't feel like I want to go through any deprogramming (I am not quite sure what that process is) but I am looking to see if there is someone or a group in my area that I could meet who has a similar expereince with the church. I live near downtown San Diego so if anyone knows of a group or someone in the area in a similar situation to me that would be nice to know. Thanks!

Welcome!!!! Many of us have been through what you are experiencing. I hope you find some comfort here or elsewhere. Peace and best wishes.

[Born Free]

Hi, I really have not ever posted like this, but I was attracted to the post-mormon website and I was moved by the message on the home page. I started to read the discussion threads and I thought this might be a goodplace to try and get help. I was raised LDS, I am an Eagle Scout, and I successfully completed a mission (made it to Zone Leader status). While I was on my mission I came to the realization that I did not believe in everything I was told as a child. While I played out the rest of the mission, came home and pretended to live the perfect post mission life, I slowly started to find ways to disengage from the LDS Church. I found the perfect non-mormon wife (everything about her is mormon except she wasn't a member) and while my family was sure I would convert her soon, that is not the case (after 10 years of marriage) and we now have two great children (still happily married). My son turns 8 next week and getting close to this date my family has been giving me a lot of pressure to baptize him. While I am firm to let them know that we do not plan to do this, it is taking this event to bring some conversations up that I have been doing my best to avoid for a long time. I have a lot of tension about the church right now, a lot of feelings of frustration and anger that I really can't explain. I don't feel like I want to go through any deprogramming (I am not quite sure what that process is) but I am looking to see if there is someone or a group in my area that I could meet who has a similar expereince with the church. I live near downtown San Diego so if anyone knows of a group or someone in the area in a similar situation to me that would be nice to know. Thanks!
aaronlfa,

Welcome on board.

Many of the stallwarts here worked through the Stages of Post Mormon experience thread prompts that is amongst the sticky threads above. Skip through the early postings before we got the process rolling. At the end will be the latest cut. That is about of best take on the broad territory thus far. I can forward the latest cut of a diagram developed to try to define the relationships of all those elements. PM me with your email address so I can forward it as a .doc attachment.

I am an Australian, but will be visiting my daughter in San Diego mid October through early November, if that is of value. I would be happy to catch up. She is out Scripps Ranch way, but that is only 30 minutes drive away out of peak.

In the development of the Stages process, someone reworked the 'It takes a village' expression, to come up with 'It takes a village to leave Mormonism', and the more I thought about that, the more true I saw it was. Mormonism used a whole 'village' to indoctrinate you to stay in there and to blinker you. All the eveidence supports the idea that extracting Mo from your head 'takes a village'. Here is just one such village.

Welcome, and feel free to pitch in. Go back across all the threads, because the really powerful ones are all across time. Try using the Rating sort to find the ones that were rated highly, and have a sort through them picking up the ones that seem most atune to the issues that are still raw for you.

Daryl

[free thinker]

You are completely welcome here.

If you read a bit you will find a treasure trove of wisdom, a load of love, and an interminable level of tolerance.

The post-mo ocean is pretty big and there are fish of every color and size.

So swim on in and join the grouper!! :cool:

free thinker

[flotsam]

Hey aaron,

I assume that's your name.

You and I are much alike. Sounds like we're even the same age. I too was raised in the Church, went on a mission, got married, two children, and am currently trying to figure out just what in the h -e double toothpick is going on.

My oldest son is almost eight, and I"ve been contemplating the whole baptism thing. It's complicated for me. To give you a bit of start on what I've been thinking about, let me brazenly refer you to an essay of mine Dialogue put up on their site. It's basically me telling the story of how questioning came into my life, with an emphasis on the priesthood.

You can find it here:

http://www.dialoguejournal.com/excerpts/38-3a.pdf

And then, if you are further interested, you can check out a little interview I did about the essay:

http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2005/08/stephen_carter_.html

If either of these writings start something going in your head, I'd love to chew things over with you. Dealing with these kinds of issues is tremendously difficult, and it's always nice to have a fellow traveler.

[cactus jack]

Aaron, remember the motto? "Choose The Right"? Well, I think you're on the right path and while I can't say much to help you, I'll certainly have you and your family in my prayers!

[miss taken]

Hi Aaron.
Baptism is such a personal issue. What does your child think. Is he old enough to know what he is doing? Baptism is not a cultural event, but an outward symbol of an inward event.

I was baptized at eight/nine. Perhaps, a sheer waste of time. I had no idea of the significance of what I was doing, (in terms of the LDS worldview) except that I was a pretty innocent kid who happened to believe in the goodness of Jesus first and foremost.

Though I do not stand behind the beliefs of the LDS church, I still believe that that commitment I made to God as a child has validity. (Sounds a bit contradictory but hope it makes sense)

Hope helps.
Mary

[noodle]

Hi Aaron, and welcome! There are so many on this forum with similar experiences. While my oldest two were baptized, we had pretty much "quit" everything as our third and last came along. We elected not to baptize him. He's 15 now, and we still get comments from his grandmother from time to time, even though she knows that we've been inactive for 10 years. There was a flurry of calls from the primary president around his eighth birthday, and I kept telling her that we hadn't made up our minds. Eventually, we just didn't do it, and she quit calling. We've never really discussed the "why we don't go to church anymore" issues in detail with anyone, mostly because people haven't asked. The only exception is the mother-in-law/grandma mentioned above. It would indeed be a waste of time to discuss details with her because she doesn't really have much of an understanding of things near and dear to us. She would only spew the usual cliches.

Again, welcome to the forum. You will find many friends here.

mamajama

[aaronlfa]

It is nice to know that there are others out there with similar expereinces. It is hard when some of the people you love the most just won't ever be able to understand where you are coming from or why you just can't accept the LDS teachings as truth. The situation has made me feel very much disconnected and at times extremely lonely. Thanks again for all the kind responces to my post.

Aaron

[dancinfree]

It is nice to know that there are others out there with similar expereinces. It is hard when some of the people you love the most just won't ever be able to understand where you are coming from or why you just can't accept the LDS teachings as truth. The situation has made me feel very much disconnected and at times extremely lonely. Thanks again for all the kind responces to my post.

Aaron

Aaron,

Welcome aboard this ship of possibilities. Congratulations on your journey so far. IMO, You have taken the risk and have continued your path of self-awareness when it comes to your inner spiritual path. This takes a great deal of courage everyday and I honor you for that.

I too, wish that those who loved me would "get" me in a more deep way...able to extend that love to understanding.... but I have found that their love can be blinded by their beliefs. You are so right, it can be a lonely and painful experience for those of us left behind to stand alone, searching for any others who can relate to the yearning for understanding, compassion and reassurance that "I'm still loved, no matter what."

Now that your child is at that age where decisions are faced, it can be confusing to figure which path to follow, not only for yourself, but now for your dear little one. I trust that your spirit has guided you this far in following your own truth. This present situation will be no exception. I have a similar experience because my two sons are at the ages of holding the priesthood and it can be quite surrendering to allow them to choose for themselves....with 100% support from me in whatever path they choose.

I hope you choose to stay with us. There is acceptance, intelligence, growth and love embracing you here no matter what path you choose to take in this life.

Your friend in cyberspace.. :)

[why me]

I have to agree with miss taken on this one. Baptism is a personal event between the individual being baptised and god. I suppose that it would all depend if you yourself wanted your child to be baptised in a church or wait until he makes up his own mind. By waiting you run the risk that he will never be baptised at all to any religion but by baptism you give him the opportunity to connect with an organization that could help him in later life. This is a tough one. But I know that you will make the correct decision because you seem like a person who has considered this rather thoughtfully with great reflection. No easy answers my friend....lets just say that this is many of life's forks in the road that is only the beginning for your child. Take care! :)

[aaronlfa]

Sorry upfront for the long post. :D

This forum has been very enlightening! I am so glad that I found it. I have not ever actively participated in any internet forums like this before so I might not have a lot of “forum etiquette” (for example, should this go in a new thread or should I keep in this thread) – apologies up front if I do anything out of line.

I have to say that since I made my first post a few days ago, I have spent several hours (and I mean several) reading a lot of the history. I can tell that there is a group of about 10 of you that are the most active and from digging through all of your posts I feel like I have gotten to know each of you (the good, the bad, and even some ugly). What a wonderful group of people. I am excited for any interactions we might have.

Clarification on the “ugly” comment above, this is directed toward the situations you are all in, not to the actual people. :)

I kept on trying to find someone on the forum that was just like me, someone who had my experience and someone I could really relate to and maybe correspond with to try and get answers to my questions (BTW aaronlfa (my name is Aaron, lfa=looking for answers)). So far, I have not been able to find any profile that was just like me although some were very close. I actually took a few of my conversations off line and had some great responses. The responses compelled me to go back through the forum to read more about the person responding to my messages. So by now I really do feel like I know many of you pretty well, but especially the ones that responded to me privately or on the forum.

This is also my first attempt in reaching out for any type of support for my situation – up to now I just numbed it with alcohol (I am not joking – please don’t judge me).

It is also rare when you come across a group that is so articulate and well-rounded and just plain smart (definitely deep thinkers in the group that is for sure). Me? I am a simple type guy. I haven’t read a lot on the “real” church history (growing up the "made up" stuff bored me, I can’t imagine I would like the real stuff much better), I also haven’t studied science and math to come to my own conclusions. I can now admit that I am atheist and I BELEIVE that there is some higher power and also life after death, but I just don’t KNOW anything. How arrogant was I throughout my life to stand at a pulpit and pronounce to the world that “I know that the LDS Church is true”, and that “I know that JS was a prophet”. It makes me sick to my stomach that I converted people on my mission with this testimony of belief, (not knowledge). Anyway, I thought leaving the church was going to be simple for me. In my mid 20s I decided that I hated being told I was a “bad boy” all the time, I didn’t feel any self respect or self worth and right or wrong I could only put that blame on the church. I actually stopped believing it was true on my mission when I realized I wasn’t a missionary serving God, just a well dressed young salesman with a sharp haircut. I figured I would just play out my mission (minding my Ps & Qs), come home get a temple marriage and it would get easier. Post-mission it just got more complicated, not easier. Although I thought leaving was going to be easy (at first), I had no idea what an emotional roller coaster ride I was headed for. As I stated I thought I was a “bad boy”, when in realty I was a really good boy. I am a pleaser. I like to be liked. I like to make people happy, and especially the ones I love. The tricky part is that the ones that I love(d) the most would and will only be pleased with me if I am the perfect Mormon that follows all the rules. The last ten years since deciding to deviate from the norm have been hell (now at least I know why some people say that, if you leave the church, you are going to hell). There hasn’t been a day go by when I don’t have anger and resentment about my situation. There is not a day that goes by that I don’t think, “oh no, if my family only knew how I really feel”. After making my decision to leave, I did resurface as an active member for two periods of my life for about nine months each. These periods started both times my wife announced she was pregnant. I reactivated long enough so that the bishop would “allow” me to bless my own children (this in and of itself is enough to keep me upset (at myself and the church) for many years to come). I figured if I could just bless them, then I will have enough time to work through this dilemma before the eldest is baptized. It is amazing how fast eight years goes by in hell. My family chooses not to talk about the church situation with me and I have been fine with that, until now.

For some of you who are waiting for an answer on the baptism dilemma, just to ease your mind, that decision is already made – no way is my son going to get baptized in the LDS church until he is at least 18 and makes the decision completely on his own. My dilemma is now dealing with the emotional side of knowing what my family thinks of me based on the decision and knowing that I am not the "good boy" they hoped me to turn into (and this I do know (not just believe) due to the numerous family conversations that my family had about “deviators” while I was growing up). I also know they have this huge sense of pity for my son, because I am not doing right by him in not baptizing him. BTW – every single member of my family is TBM (picked this acronym up from reading the postings). Every single one! (did I mention this?)

This leads me to some other thoughts on the members of the forum. It seems that there are two types of participants those of us that were born under covenant (or were forced to join as a child) and those of us that were not forced to join the church and made the decision on their own. I was born under the covenant and always thought that it would be so much easier to leave if it was my own decision. After reading some of the posts it sounds like that may not the case. However, it does appear that these are two distinct and in many ways different experiences – those of us that were dragged by our parents (with every good intention) to be spiritual raped and those of you that were lured to the same place on your own. There is probably a post out there somewhere on the topic, but I have not stumbled across it yet.

Anyway, sorry for the long post, I just thought if was going to participate that I should give you a little more background on myself. Thanks for all the data that you have put out there and your notes of acceptance. I read through a lot of the “steps” thread postings but still way to confused and dramatized to sort out where I am on the roadmap (clueless and in my mid-thirties, how pathetic am I).

[dogzilla]

Hey! Who you callin' ugly? :p


I'm kidding. Welcome! I'm glad we've been able to provide some comfort and support to you. Make yourself at home.

Can I bring you some coffee, maybe an espresso? I've got Cuban coffee today; it's like high octane espresso. Ever wonder why Miami is so crazy? Because they're all drinking Cafe Cubana or Cafe con Leche! We actually VIBRATE down here, because all the caffiene. :D

Good luck with your dilemmas and feel free to ask for our opinions any time. We're FULL of those. ;)

Bzzzzzzzzzz :: Buzzes out of thread to go do something else ::

[why me]

Hi again aaron!
I think that you are under rating yourself when you say that you are just a simple guy. Perhaps you are a simple guy...I don't know...but your post was far from simple. It was very articulate and well-thoughout. In fact, you also seem to be a deep thinker like many of the people on this forum. I think that you will find a good home here among the people in this forum. We have all kinds of people each trying to live life and discover new beginnings and possibilties for a more fuller life. I suppose that we are all at different levels in the process and each of us is trying to find that road to travel down. I think that it is even safe to say that some of us have found that road and we only ask for that road to be the beginnings of new paths both worn and unworn by human habitation but new for us. I am glad that you find the people interesting here. In some strange way we all seem to get along even though we do have our disagreements sometimes. :) Take care!

[silverfox]

Sorry upfront for the long post. :D

This forum has been very enlightening! I am so glad that I found it. I have not ever actively participated in any internet forums like this before so I might not have a lot of “forum etiquette” (for example, should this go in a new thread or should I keep in this thread) – apologies up front if I do anything out of line.

I have to say that since I made my first post a few days ago, I have spent several hours (and I mean several) reading a lot of the history. I can tell that there is a group of about 10 of you that are the most active and from digging through all of your posts I feel like I have gotten to know each of you (the good, the bad, and even some ugly). What a wonderful group of people. I am excited for any interactions we might have.

Clarification on the “ugly” comment above, this is directed toward the situations you are all in, not to the actual people. :)

I kept on trying to find someone on the forum that was just like me, someone who had my experience and someone I could really relate to and maybe correspond with to try and get answers to my questions (BTW aaronlfa (my name is Aaron, lfa=looking for answers)). So far, I have not been able to find any profile that was just like me although some were very close. I actually took a few of my conversations off line and had some great responses. The responses compelled me to go back through the forum to read more about the person responding to my messages. So by now I really do feel like I know many of you pretty well, but especially the ones that responded to me privately or on the forum.

This is also my first attempt in reaching out for any type of support for my situation – up to now I just numbed it with alcohol (I am not joking – please don’t judge me).

It is also rare when you come across a group that is so articulate and well-rounded and just plain smart (definitely deep thinkers in the group that is for sure). Me? I am a simple type guy. I haven’t read a lot on the “real” church history (growing up the "made up" stuff bored me, I can’t imagine I would like the real stuff much better), I also haven’t studied science and math to come to my own conclusions. I can now admit that I am atheist and I BELEIVE that there is some higher power and also life after death, but I just don’t KNOW anything. How arrogant was I throughout my life to stand at a pulpit and pronounce to the world that “I know that the LDS Church is true”, and that “I know that JS was a prophet”. It makes me sick to my stomach that I converted people on my mission with this testimony of belief, (not knowledge). Anyway, I thought leaving the church was going to be simple for me. In my mid 20s I decided that I hated being told I was a “bad boy” all the time, I didn’t feel any self respect or self worth and right or wrong I could only put that blame on the church. I actually stopped believing it was true on my mission when I realized I wasn’t a missionary serving God, just a well dressed young salesman with a sharp haircut. I figured I would just play out my mission (minding my Ps & Qs), come home get a temple marriage and it would get easier. Post-mission it just got more complicated, not easier. Although I thought leaving was going to be easy (at first), I had no idea what an emotional roller coaster ride I was headed for. As I stated I thought I was a “bad boy”, when in realty I was a really good boy. I am a pleaser. I like to be liked. I like to make people happy, and especially the ones I love. The tricky part is that the ones that I love(d) the most would and will only be pleased with me if I am the perfect Mormon that follows all the rules. The last ten years since deciding to deviate from the norm have been hell (now at least I know why some people say that, if you leave the church, you are going to hell). There hasn’t been a day go by when I don’t have anger and resentment about my situation. There is not a day that goes by that I don’t think, “oh no, if my family only knew how I really feel”. After making my decision to leave, I did resurface as an active member for two periods of my life for about nine months each. These periods started both times my wife announced she was pregnant. I reactivated long enough so that the bishop would “allow” me to bless my own children (this in and of itself is enough to keep me upset (at myself and the church) for many years to come). I figured if I could just bless them, then I will have enough time to work through this dilemma before the eldest is baptized. It is amazing how fast eight years goes by in hell. My family chooses not to talk about the church situation with me and I have been fine with that, until now.

For some of you who are waiting for an answer on the baptism dilemma, just to ease your mind, that decision is already made – no way is my son going to get baptized in the LDS church until he is at least 18 and makes the decision completely on his own. My dilemma is now dealing with the emotional side of knowing what my family thinks of me based on the decision and knowing that I am not the "good boy" they hoped me to turn into (and this I do know (not just believe) due to the numerous family conversations that my family had about “deviators” while I was growing up). I also know they have this huge sense of pity for my son, because I am not doing right by him in not baptizing him. BTW – every single member of my family is TBM (picked this acronym up from reading the postings). Every single one! (did I mention this?)

This leads me to some other thoughts on the members of the forum. It seems that there are two types of participants those of us that were born under covenant (or were forced to join as a child) and those of us that were not forced to join the church and made the decision on their own. I was born under the covenant and always thought that it would be so much easier to leave if it was my own decision. After reading some of the posts it sounds like that may not the case. However, it does appear that these are two distinct and in many ways different experiences – those of us that were dragged by our parents (with every good intention) to be spiritual raped and those of you that were lured to the same place on your own. There is probably a post out there somewhere on the topic, but I have not stumbled across it yet.

Anyway, sorry for the long post, I just thought if was going to participate that I should give you a little more background on myself. Thanks for all the data that you have put out there and your notes of acceptance. I read through a lot of the “steps” thread postings but still way to confused and dramatized to sort out where I am on the roadmap (clueless and in my mid-thirties, how pathetic am I).

Those are some wonderful comments, thanks for sharing. It's a lonely place to be. I made the same decision with my daughter when she turned 8. Hubby and I compromised...she can be baptized....but only when she is 18 and can make that decision as an adult.

Until then she is exposed to the pros and cons. She is a wonderfully behaved little girl, full of unconditional love and acceptance. She attends some activities now and then but her interst is waning. She is tired of hearing from leaders and other girls "Why dont you come to church? You should be in Primary. How sad your parents don't come to church. You wanna come with us?"

She is learning who has issues and who doesn't. Some kids tend to feel as thought they don't fit in makes others feel like they are unique in their own way (as with daughter) and can be just as "christlike" if not moreso as any member. (I am agnostic but I teach compassion and acceptance)

Best wishes.

[Born Free]

Sorry upfront for the long post. :D

<snip>

Anyway, sorry for the long post, I just thought if was going to participate that I should give you a little more background on myself. Thanks for all the data that you have put out there and your notes of acceptance. I read through a lot of the “steps” thread postings but still way to confused and dramatized to sort out where I am on the roadmap (clueless and in my mid-thirties, how pathetic am I).

Aaron,

Here you are apologising for where you are at, and I think you have done a great job. Forget pathetic. You will see many of us feel we have been less than smart falling for all the cock and bull, but you are doing great.

Arriving at this in your mid thirties, you are right on cue. The big mid-life 'deepening' kicks in for most people between 35 and 55, so you are right on the leading edge of the bulk of the Bell Curve.

In case you haven't located it yet with all your reading, Ed Gardiner has a great piece on Shame and Agency in the Magazine, which I heartily recommend. Ed and his brother William have written a few stunning papers on issues like shame, agency, acting-out and ultra-complaince, which I suspect you might love. Go to:

http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/papers/2004/10/20

The important thing is don't beat up on yourself, and remember that the rellies reaction is their problem. You have been socialised to believe that if you were a 'nice person' you wouldn't be creating all this anxiety for them. Their anxiety is their problem. You are starting to live your life with authenticity, so gradually unattach from all the 'loving guidance', and get on with trusting you own deep wisdom. Sounds like it has served you well up to this point, just that you were slow to listen deeply on a few occasions.

Welcome on board. Judging by how enthusiastically you have glened all the wisdonm on offer, you will quickly become a valued member here. Welcome home.

Daryl

[free thinker]

I read your story with great interest. I hope you will accept this into your heart and soul.

Leaving mormonism the way you did is an act of courage, not cowardice.

You are definately not a bad boy. I think you are a pretty damn brave man.

" And doggonit people like you"

Stewart Smalley :D

Just had to have a little fun! Thanks for your great post. Welcome again.

free thinker

[meinmachine]

I just read through your posts, welcome to the board. I hope you find the comfort and support I have found amongst these good folks. Take care and keep thinking. This is the antidote for the Mormon sickness.

[Born Free]

Well I finally caught up with Aaron on Tuesday afternoon/night.

We had a great talk for several hours before heading out for a meal/beer at a boutique brewery in Fashion Valley with 3 other former Mos.

We had a great night (OK - I Statement time: I had a great night. Aaron can report on his end!)

I have promised Aaron copies of several excellent sound files I have which I suspect may be of interest to many Post-Mos, all ones that have helped me greatly in my recovery: 3 x Spong addresses given in Brisbane, a talk on Masculine Spirituality by Richard Rohr (which many men report helping them uncouple sipirituality from religion), and the recent Philip Adams interview with Paul (not sure I recall the name correctly) re the negative correlation between religiosity and health outcomes.

If there is some interest in those files, I might see if I can get them up on a website where they can be downloaded by FTP.

The catch-up with Aaron has really reinforced in my mind the value of such contact, and I will return to Brisbane highly committed to getting our group up and flying.

Thanks Aaron for a great night. I am really glad I made the effort to connect.

Daryl

PS: Sadly I will not be able to make it up to Utard this trip; next time maybe!

[silverfox]

Well I finally caught up with Aaron on Tuesday afternoon/night.

We had a great talk for several hours before heading out for a meal/beer at a boutique brewery in Fashion Valley with 3 other former Mos.

We had a great night (OK - I Statement time: I had a great night. Aaron can report on his end!)

I have promised Aaron copies of several excellent sound files I have which I suspect may be of interest to many Post-Mos, all ones that have helped me greatly in my recovery: 3 x Spong addresses given in Brisbane, a talk on Masculine Spirituality by Richard Rohr (which many men report helping them uncouple sipirituality from religion), and the recent Philip Adams interview with Paul (not sure I recall the name correctly) re the negative correlation between religiosity and health outcomes.

If there is some interest in those files, I might see if I can get them up on a website where they can be downloaded by FTP.

The catch-up with Aaron has really reinforced in my mind the value of such contact, and I will return to Brisbane highly committed to getting our group up and flying.

Thanks Aaron for a great night. I am really glad I made the effort to connect.

Daryl

PS: Sadly I will not be able to make it up to Utard this trip; next time maybe!

That's for posting this, BF. I think it's important others see the value in the friendships that are created from post mo sources. I am having the time of my life with fellow post mo friends and it's just AMAZING!

[free thinker]

Sounds like you guys had a great time. Thanks for letting us know how things went. I was thinking about you guys today.

free thinker

[bigeddy]

I also believe it takes a village to leave the church behind.

I finally had a little time to read and have read this entire thread. Sounds like a journey similar to a lot of us: the same thrills, angers and pains. So sorry that the morg doesn't make it easier to be true to oneself.

My wife and I will be visiting San Diego in November (5th through the 12th to be exact.) Would love to get together with any postmos that live in the area. Let me know if that would be cool. I am anxious to see if the brew pub my brother and I visited 5 years ago is still there. Damn good beer.

Ed

[lunaverse]

Aaron! I just got around to reading this. When I first saw it I too busy at work, so I put it off, and then forgot about it. :/

Thank you so much for posting this. As you've probably read from some other posts, I'm researching cults in general, and then looking at how this body of knowledge applies to Mormonism. Unfortunately, I only have my own personal experiences and the experiences I read about to go from. My personal experience is somewhat lacking, because I was never married in the temple, and I never went on a mission, so this post helped me fill in some of the gaps.

You have expressed great remorse over those you converted on your missions. Post-cult guilt is listed as a very common issue many ex-cultists have to deal with --
Guilt for converting people, guilt for being "stupid" enough to be converted in the first place, and guilt for unethical things performed while a member.

I never did any of these things (the only people I converted left long ago). But it sounds like this symptom is affecting you quite a bit.

The important thing to remember is to never judge your past self based on what you know today. It's impossible for you to have known at the time what you were doing, so it is senseless to blame yourself. You were being controlled by a deceptive organization. You believed you were doing the right thing at the time, and you probably thought you had no choice. Now is the time to forgive yourself.

I understand your frustrations at being a people-pleaser. I was/am too. In my early 20's, (while still TBM) I had to attend a 12-step group just to be able to tell my mom, "No!". I remember the first time I told her off to her face. I became detached from myself, like an out of body experience, like I was looking down at myself telling my mom off. I was screaming, "No! Don't do it! She'll do something terrible! She'll hate you!"

Nothing terrible happened, and after that my mom gave me just a little more space (though not much). Over the years I had to ramp it up, but I still have a very hard time telling her what I think. I can email it to her, but I can't TELL her in person or on the phone. My mind freezes up. I think the worst thing she could ever do is start crying, and tell me how much she's done for me and why won't anyone just appreciate and love her? No matter how much I know this is a stupid guilt trip, I can't ignore it on an emotional level until I step away from the situation.

I highly recommend that you continue your studying about the Church. Also study other cults. There is a vast body of work on the JW's, and they are very similar to Mormonism in terms of how they control their members.

I'm working to write more on the topic, there is so very little available. All the general cult books I've read state that study is essential to recovery. So is socialization with other ex-members. So you're doing all the right things. :)

If you haven't seen my website yet, here it is: http://www.rationalrevelation.com I currently have three articles there that should help you understand a little what has happened to you. Also, since you served a mission, you may find this link helpful: http://www.freedomofmind.com/resourcecenter/groups/m/mormon/BITE-missionary.htm

BTW, that site is run by Steven Hassan, a prominant cult researcher and exit councilor, and he has just linked to my website from his. :D

If you're driven to read more on what the secular world knows about mind control, I recommend "Cults in our Midst" by Margaret Thaler Singer and "Recovery from Cults", a collection of papers edited by Michael Langone. Or you can wait for me to boil it all down and apply it to Mormonism on my website. :) So much to do, so little time!

Best of luck to you!

Luna

P.S. Oh wait, one more set of links! HIGHLY Recommended!

http://www.lds-mormon.com/doublebind.shtml
http://www.exmormon.org/pattern/

You can probably skip the parts on the Double-Bind in the Old Testament, I sure did. The rest is *essential*. After reading this, I immediately felt more assertive, and my co-workers noticed the change right away. I wasn't so easy to push around after that. :) She explains how the Church makes a contract with you, and if you find they are not doing their part, it is always YOUR FAULT. I started to see this contract/blame pattern in other areas of my life -- and that I always assume that the failure of all agreements is because of me. Now I see where *others* fail in their side of the deal, instead of instantly blaming myself.

[aaronlfa]

So, I have not been here for a while and haven’t posted since I sent my resignation letter to SLC in September. I just saw these additions to my original post, thanks for the follow-up notes.

I haven’t been around at this site as I have been doing a lot of other reading lately. I started to read the Spalding Enigma and also Recovery from Cults. Both books are giving good confirmation on both a logical and emotional level that I have made the right decision. Also a must read is “The Four Agreements”. It is short and very easy reading and helps to understand a way through recovery.

I received “the letter” from the Church on October 3rd letting me know that my request to have my membership removed was being sent to my local stake as this type of request is a local matter (I was expecting it). I haven’t heard anything since then though. I am hoping that it will get processed quickly, but I guess it might take some time.

Well I finally caught up with Aaron on Tuesday afternoon/night.

We had a great talk for several hours before heading out for a meal/beer at a boutique brewery in Fashion Valley with 3 other former Mos.

We had a great night (OK - I Statement time: I had a great night. Aaron can report on his end!)


First off, my meeting with Daryl was really great and I thoroughly enjoyed the discussion as well! I also enjoyed the dinner with some other PMs that we had after Daryl and I chatted for a couple hours. I can attest to everyone that Daryl also has a very nice family. :)

Daryl gave me a lot of good insight and also Daryl, thanks for sending the documents, I found them extremely helpful. I really enjoyed the article on Masculine Spirituality. Daryl, again, please make sure to let me know next time you come to San Diego to visit. Hopefully your daughter will end up staying here so you have a reason to return often!

During our conversations, Daryl mentioned some of the posts that are here from Big Eddy and ironically it appears that Big Eddy is coming to San Diego!



My wife and I will be visiting San Diego in November (5th through the 12th to be exact.) Would love to get together with any postmos that live in the area. Let me know if that would be cool. I am anxious to see if the brew pub my brother and I visited 5 years ago is still there. Damn good beer.

Ed


So Ed, I am definitely interested in meeting you if you are up to it. There are a few others here in San Diego that would also probably be interested as well. Please email me off line if you are interested (aaronlfa@yahoo.com) and we can arrange a date and time.

Aaron! I just got around to reading this. When I first saw it I too busy at work, so I put it off, and then forgot about it. :/

Thank you so much for posting this. As you've probably read from some other posts, I'm researching cults in general, and then looking at how this body of knowledge applies to Mormonism.


Luna, thank you also for all the advice and suggestions. Some of this I am aware of, while others I was not aware of. If you ever need a case study for your work, please don’t hesitate to contact me. About a month ago I read your rebuttal article (in draft format) comparing LDS to a cult framework and found the article amazing. I see that it is now posted on your website. Very well done! I completely agree with all your points. It is amazing how being out of the church makes everything seem to fit.

About two months ago I was surfing around and came across somewhere where it simply explained that the whole reason why the temple wedding ceremony is closed to only “temple recommend holding” members is so that early on, Joe and the Boys could keep polygamist marriages as secret as possible. I know there is more to the storey, but as a TBM, if I ever was told this, I couldn’t remember and I would have blown it off, but from the outside it’s like,

“duh, now that makes sense! How could I have been so stupid”.

Anyway, thanks to old Joe and his corrupt life style, I will not be able to participate in many of my Nieces and Nephews wedding ceremonies.

What a guy. Come on, all together now: Three Cheers for Joseph Smith! “Rah” “Rah” "Rah"

[Fredl]

AAron, like Luna last month, I just read this particular thead. And, like everybody else, my heart goes out to you.

Let me say that I've been around on this planet for quite awhile (68, last July - which is why I'm entitled to flirt with Luna without any self-recriminations!) and, in that time I've made a few observations:

1. We're often at our very best when we feel the most frightened, alone and unsure of ourselves. I'd say this observation aplies to you this very moment. Personally, I think you are showing great courage and great integrity.

2. For every door that closes (or that we close deliberately), others will open. May I give you some advice? Be alert for new and exciting opportunities in your life for friends and companions as well as deeply moving spiritual experiences. Look, if you want to spend the next part of your life obsessing over tscc, I can't quarrel with that choice. It is entirely the CORRECT choice for many. But, if you can keep at least just a little bit of your conscious open to new possibilities I think you will be rewarded. If I may compare leaving tscc with getting fired in the world of work, the two times I was fired it truly amazed me how much better off I was 6 months after it happened. Whatever you are going through at this time, "This too shall pass.".

3. There is no reason for putting yourself down for your activities and beliefs as a Mormon. Tscc is far from being an unmitigated evil and the people that you converted were and are responsible for their own decisions. I have noticed myself a feeling of shame that I have when I tell people I have left tscc, but I attribute that to a sort of "false self" that I didn't develop originally in tscc, but to which it certainly contributed. I think that as time passes and you are able to view what happened while you were in tscc from greater distance, you will come to view it with greter detatchment and less anguish.

Antway ,as I've heard it said in Alanon, you may find that although you may not like us all here at PM.org, you will find that we all love you in a very special way.

It is my heartfelt hope that we will see more of you in the future.

Yout friend, Fred

[aaronlfa]

Be alert for new and exciting opportunities in your life for friends and companions as well as deeply moving spiritual experiences. Look, if you want to spend the next part of your life obsessing over tscc, I can't quarrel with that choice. It is entirely the CORRECT choice for many. But, if you can keep at least just a little bit of your conscious open to new possibilities I think you will be rewarded.

Fred,

Thanks for the great advice. My sincere hope is that one day I can go an entire day without thinking about the LDS Church and that the world in my eyes will be a better place. Right now, I am having good days and not so good days, but I am seeing a light at the end of the tunnel and that feels good. I appreciate your note.